A gallon per day? Seriously?

[RCgothic]

So the srd (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm) suggests a medium creature needs a gallon per day to survive.

Personally I don't get through even a third that much! Half, if I've been particularly active, maybe. I could get by on a quart per day and not feel any ill effects.

This has come up because one of my characters has found herself in a desert survival situation where water is being kept track of for the first time, and suddenly I'm needing 3-4 gallons of water per day (the day is 32hrs long, so increased consumption). That's more than ten times what I'd normally drink and even allowing for being in a desert I think it's a bit much.

That's up to eight waterskins per day each (40 for the group), and none of our characters were prepared for desert. We have a cleric who can cast 'create water', for 12 waterskinfuls per spell, but we don't have enough to hold it in (5 waterskins). We're in serious trouble, and I think the srd is to blame for overstating how much we need.

This sounds really really strange to me.

[Seharvepernfan]

I believe that is to avoid fatigue/non-lethal damage. If you don't stay adequately hydrated, you're probably more tired/weaker than you ought to be, but are in no actual danger.

Also, remember that our D&D characters are wearing full-clothes/armor/gear and are walking everywhere.

I want to add that I work in a warehouse that is half outside, and in the summer it gets brutally hot in there, what with all the forklift exhaust building up inside semi-trailers and everything. I drink three or four times as much water then than I normally do.

[limejuicepowder]

I agree with you entirely - 1 gallon per day sounds extremely high (and how did 1 gallon become 4 gallons when the day only increased by 25%?). Maybe they mean if your character is running a marathon every day and is looking to maintain peek physical performance.

Real-world survival stories tell of people surviving a small amounts of salt water for weeks. They won't be in good shape, but they live.

Talk to your DM about it. If he really wants to be a stickler, try to work something out where you can drink a lot less but are weakened - say, 1 con damage every 2 days or w/e. Adjust based on how much less water you're actually getting. Out of curiosity, what's happening since you AREN'T getting enough water?

It sound to me like the DM is making the water reqs extremely high just so the cleric doesn't trivialize the situation.

[Tantaburs]

I feel like a gallon a day is fairly accurate.

Remeber that is a gallon of liquid consumed not liquid drunk. Pretty much all food you eat contains liquids.

[Amphetryon]

In addition to the armor and gear and the walking, D&D characters are presumed to be in 4 - 5 life-or-death combats per day, which can also dehydrate a person pretty quickly. Have you ever seen boxers, MMA fighters, or similar? I've no doubt they hydrate properly, but they get another few swallows of water every 3 - 5 minutes, despite coming in hydrated, because they're exerting themselves. The same goes for many cyclists, runners, and other endurance athletes.

TL;DR: The hydration needs of a relatively sedentary modern lifestyle are going to be less than those of quasi-medieval murder-hobos in near continuous fights for their lives.

[Serpentine]

Humans should be consuming somewhere around 3L (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drinking_water#Requirements), or 0.8US gallons, of water each day. This includes water obtained through food, so if you have plenty of food at hand it can be reduced somewhat (I don't know by how much). It also depends a whole lot on how active you are, the conditions you're in, and so on, as well as individual physiology. If you're striding through a hot desert, I'd expect it to be at least double what you'd normally drink.
So, all in all, I think requiring a gallon per day of a creature wandering around a hot desert to be pretty reasonable. If your character happens to be on the smaller side, you could maybe get away with saying you should have somewhat less, but not a whole lot in my opinion.
It may be worth pointing out, too, that this would just be the ideal. I'm sure you could survive, with rationing, indefinitely on substantially less water. You'd just be suffering from dehydration (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dehydration) as you do so.

[HunterColt22]

So the srd (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm) suggests a medium creature needs a gallon per day to survive.

Personally I don't get through even a third that much! Half, if I've been particularly active, maybe. I could get by on a quart per day and not feel any ill effects.

This has come up because one of my characters has found herself in a desert survival situation where water is being kept track of for the first time, and suddenly I'm needing 3-4 gallons of water per day (the day is 32hrs long, so increased consumption). That's more than ten times what I'd normally drink and even allowing for being in a desert I think it's a bit much.

That's up to eight waterskins per day each (40 for the group), and none of our characters were prepared for desert. We have a cleric who can cast 'create water', for 12 waterskinfuls per spell, but we don't have enough to hold it in (5 waterskins). We're in serious trouble, and I think the srd is to blame for overstating how much we need.

This sounds really really strange to me.


:smallannoyed: Really? The average male body living in a temperate climate needs about 3 liters a day, or roughly one gallon of water, females clock in at about 2.2 Liters or 3/4ths a gallon, add on top of that a desert where you perspire more, fatigue, the body's own internal regulations and the fact that you are CARRYING POUNDS UPON POUNDS of armor and gear, yeah, this is perfectly fine by science in the physical world. I.E, for those unaware temperate is what you find in the North East portion of the US for a climate. So the numbers are not off at all and yes if you are playing in a desert or exploring one, you should have a lot of water on hand. Sorry for the emphasis, I don't mean to come off as rude, but sometimes people grossly overestimate how badly our bodies don't need water. :smallannoyed: Hell we are only 60% water, how much could we possibly need. :smallamused:

[mcv]

In a hot desert you need to drink a lot more than in more temperate, humid or sheltered conditions. I believe Burning Man recommends that you bring 1.5 - 3 gallons per person per day.

[Mishkov]

TL;DR: The hydration needs of a relatively sedentary modern lifestyle are going to be less than those of quasi-medieval murder-hobos in near continuous fights for their lives.

Tehehe quasi-medieval murder-hobos :smallbiggrin:

Also look into Sandstorm for both ways of adjusting to the heat (hydration suit, keepcool salve, heat endurance feat, hydrate spell) and also dehydration checks. It states you have to double for each heat band above 90 degrees (91, 111, 141, 181, 211 are all new heat bands) or you start rolling con checks for dehydration. Then dehydration needs 24 hours of care, double water, etc.

The desert is a nasty place.

[supermonkeyjoe]

Also this is the adventurer economy we're talking about. I don't know what you do for a living RCGothic but try hiking through some mountains for a day and fight four life-or-death battles and then see how much you need to drink :smallwink:

[RCgothic]

Snopes has this to say. (http://www.snopes.com/medical/myths/8glasses.asp)

I still think a gallon per day is an incredible amount of water. And to have to drink that, merely to avoid penalty?

I could get by on a quarter of that, and merely feel a bit thirsty. And I'm fully aware that I'm usually sedentary, but even when I have been more active (I've run half marathons and worked in warehouses) I haven't had that much. Maybe whilst being hyper-active I might get through 1 gallon.

I can see 1 gallon per day for a full day of exertion, but what if the day is spent in social endeavours in a city? You're telling me I still need three times my normal input merely to avoid penalty?

[hymer]

Maybe the rule is there for simplicity as much as (or more than) verisimilitude. Water in D&D is generally measured in gallons, and medium is the medium size. So let's just say you drink a standard unit (gallon) of water each standard unit (day) if you're standard (medium) sized.
Obviously real life liquid consumption varies widely, but is there really a need for a rule to capture that? Just aim for when people actually need to keep track of how much water they use: When crossing deserts springs to mind. In which case the gallon isn't such a bad estimate.

Edit: Oh, and don't forget that the book was written in the colonies. So their idea of a gallon is off (3.79 litres as I recall, and the right Imperial Gallon is just over 4.5 litres).

[Serpentine]

RCgothic: again, that's the amount to be at your peak. And just how thirsty do you think you're going to get walking through a desert? Far, far more than just about anything you're likely to do on a normal day, so comparing the amount your characters need to drink right now with your normal intake is hardly realistic.
I'd say a gallon per day is quite high for normal, temperate living, but for travelling in a hot, dry environment I think it'd be easy to need that much.
The key flaw, I think, is that the real-world amounts includes the water you consume through food, whereas the D&D amount doesn't. But, in turn, that means you have to think about the sort of food your party is eating. If they have access to fruit, vegetables, fresh meat, and so on, they're going to need significantly less water than if they're relying on standard rations like hardtack, dried meat, etc.

[RCgothic]

RCgothic: again, that's the amount to be at your peak. And just how thirsty do you think you're going to get walking through a desert? Far, far more than just about anything you're likely to do on a normal day, so comparing the amount your characters need to drink right now with your normal intake is hardly realistic.
I'd say a gallon per day is quite high for normal, temperate living, but for travelling in a hot, dry environment I think it'd be easy to need that much.
The key flaw, I think, is that the real-world amounts includes the water you consume through food, whereas the D&D amount doesn't. But, in turn, that means you have to think about the sort of food your party is eating. If they have access to fruit, vegetables, fresh meat, and so on, they're going to need significantly less water than if they're relying on standard rations like hardtack, dried meat, etc.

Apparently the requirement for travelling this desert is about 4 gallons per day (which is in alignment for srd, long days and a hot desert). It's not so much the one gallon/day base that bothers me so much as what happens when you start multiplying it for hot environments.

I could agree with half a gallon a day whilst not doing anything in particular. I can agree with a gallon per day with heavy exertion. My character is being asked to drink 1/4 of her body mass daily. Surely that's ridiculous, regardless.

We were asked to subtract 1.5 gallons merely for sitting in the shade whilst waiting for nightfall. None of us had that much because we were teleported into the desert with only our standard one waterskin.

[hymer]

So, your characters die, and your DM learns a lesson. What are you going to play for your next game?

Edit: Do note that the cleric can cast more than one create water per day. S/he can cast it with slots higher than level 0, too, if needs be. And you can all fill your stomachs as well as your waterskins at each casting. Finally, going about with some penalty could be doable.

Or instigate revolt! Take the DMs books from him and put someone more worthy on his throne!

[The Glyphstone]

So, your characters die, and your DM learns a lesson. What are you going to play for your next game?

Edit: Do note that the cleric can cast more than one create water per day. S/he can cast it with slots higher than level 0, too, if needs be. And you can all fill your stomachs as well as your waterskins at each casting. Finally, going about with some penalty could be doable.

Or instigate revolt! Take the DMs books from him and put someone more worthy on his throne!

Water genasi, obviously.

[Amphetryon]

I'm just clarifying, here: The root of the complaint is that requiring your magic-wielding, lycanthrope-slaying, dragon-hunting fictional construct to drink a lot of water while traipsing through the desert is unrealistic, right? :smallwink:

[razorback]

In a hot desert you need to drink a lot more than in more temperate, humid or sheltered conditions. I believe Burning Man recommends that you bring 1.5 - 3 gallons per person per day.
Yes. Having been there 6 times, on the days we were setting up camp/building stuff, we were easily going through 2 gallons per person per day. Once we had shelter and could relax during the day, it went down quite a bit but water used for cooling during that exertion goes up a lot. As they say at BM, if you're thirsty you're already dehydrated.
As a side note, I rode a motorcycle from Las Vegas up the center of Nevada to Death Valley and up the eastern side of the Sierra's in August a few years ago. It was 120f in the shade at Furnace Creek. Just sitting on a motorcycle from LV to Furnace Creek I consumed a 2.5 gallon container of water and was pretty dehydrated by the time I sat down to have lunch.

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc253/speedtrip/IMG_0627-1.jpg

Granted, I wasn't doing anything but the amount of air wicking that happened at 80-ish MPH for 5 hours sucked the sweat right off me.
Yeah, carrying around 80 pounds of gear, while exerting yourself (walking, fighting, etc), in a dry/arid and hot climate and consuming 3 gallons of water a day... yeah, I find that realistic.

[hymer]

@ The Glyphstone: Good one! :D


the amount of air wicking that happened at 80-ish MPH for 5 hours sucked the sweat right off me.

This was a good thing. It's the sublimation of water that causes a drop in temperature (sublimation costs energy, which is taken in the form of heat). Sweat that drips off before it sublimates didn't help you.
Unless by sucking the sweat off, you mean it actually was lost before sublimation, sort of getting blown off.

[Zahhak]

I've been criticized before for trying to bring too much realism into gaming, but I'm going to do it anyways: a gallon a day is not enough.

In the real world in temperature weather without being particularly active, doctors recommend 3-4 quarts of water a day. If you are going through your day on a quart or less, you are dehydrated. This is bad for your muscles and most of your internal organs. I recommend you change that. While marching through a desert, guess what, you'll be active and extremely hot. I was doing a charity carwash earlier this year. I was moving around a lot, but wasn't, like, running a marathon. It was about a 80-90 degrees for a good portion of the day, and at about hour 8 of 10 I realized I was getting a nasty case of heat exhaustion, and sat down. I had by that time drank over two gallons of water and gatorade, and I still felt like passing out while having the muscles in the backs of my legs cramping up, felt lighted headed, dizzy, and confused.

From a real world perspective, you wouldn't be drinking enough. If I was your DM, I'd ignore the rule and require 3 gallons a day, or you start developing heat cramps, heat exhaustion, or heat stroke. Besides, you should have a cleric, and they should be able to cast 'Create Water' or atleast use a scroll of same.

[Spuddles]

In addition to the armor and gear and the walking, D&D characters are presumed to be in 4 - 5 life-or-death combats per day, which can also dehydrate a person pretty quickly. Have you ever seen boxers, MMA fighters, or similar? I've no doubt they hydrate properly, but they get another few swallows of water every 3 - 5 minutes, despite coming in hydrated, because they're exerting themselves. The same goes for many cyclists, runners, and other endurance athletes.

TL;DR: The hydration needs of a relatively sedentary modern lifestyle are going to be less than those of quasi-medieval murder-hobos in near continuous fights for their lives.

Yeah exactly. I live a more active than average lifestyle, and 3 to 4 quarts a day is pretty standard for me. Anything less and my piss syrup and I'm feeling thirsty.

When I am out adventuring IRL, I might be drinking 6 quarts a day.

[edit]
this thread has made me thirsty.

Dehydration via respiration happens swiftly. Your lungs leak a lot of fluids. Foods that are high in sugar have a bunch of metabolic water. That is, in the oxidation of sugar to get energy, water and carbon dioxide are the biproducts. Deser animals get something like 80 to 90% of their water from food. I think we only get upwards of 20 or 30%.

OP- how much do you weigh, and do you really only get by on 4 cups of fluid a day? No coffee, tea, milk in your cereal, coke during the day, break at the water cooler, etc.

[Slipperychicken]

Probably already mentioned, but still. Adventurers are way more active than we will ever be. Here's some perspective:

Your Wizard wakes up, immediately grabs his tome and memorizes up to 80 pages of text in an hour (can you even read that much in an hour, and still understand it?). He then proceeds to shove a flavorless gruel ration stick down his throat, and stack as much random crap onto his back as his puny legs will carry without snapping, and run around almost continuously all day. He then proceeds to probably get himself savagely beaten by Orcs, but still carry through, waving his arms really fast and shouting to turn them into burnt goop, which he proceeds to rifle through for valuables, not taking so much as six seconds to catch his breath before the loot-spree, or even run into the next room full of angry guys with sharp swords.

These people exert themselves to the limits of human potential and beyond, usually getting themselves killed in a matter of mere days after setting off to Adventure, even with literal magic healing them to 100% capacity after every engagement. Even soldiers don't take that much punishment.

So yeah, I say they deserve a damn gallon of water every day.

[Vorr]

Most medical places will tell you an adult male needs three liters, and that is a bit less then a gallon. But they will also tell you that if your more active, you will need to drink more.

Now in the modern world, people are not all that active. Walking to a car and driving to work is not all that 'active'. And typing on a computer is not all that 'active'. So people can get away with less then a gallon.

But then most modern people do drinks tons and tons of liquids too. Coffee, for example. I think it's safe to say a lot of people drink at least a gallon of coffee a day. And fruit drinks, and energy drinks and tea, and so on.

But then when you compare a D&D characters life to modern life, it's a lot different. A D&D character is way more active. On a slow day they can count on walking at least a couple dozen miles. And an active day, getting into a lot of life or death fights.

And all activities take lots of effort. Take something simple like cooking a meal. Compare: Buying meat in a store and talking it home to cook on a grill to hunting and catching and skinning and making a fire and cooking an animal. As you can see the second one is a lot more effort.

[Cicciograna]

I think this (http://rk19-bielefeld-mitte.de/survival/FM/13.htm#par3) is appropriate. It is taken from FM 3-05.70, US Army Field Manual - Survival, Chapter 13: Desert Survival, so it should be accurate. Please note the picture.

[laeZ1]

I'm just clarifying, here: The root of the complaint is that requiring your magic-wielding, lycanthrope-slaying, dragon-hunting fictional construct to drink a lot of water while traipsing through the desert is unrealistic, right? :smallwink:

Don't be silly.

Constructs don't need water. Unless powered by Steam. :smallamused:

[Darth Stabber]

When i was in basic training (lackland afb tx during the months of august abd september) i easily drank over a gallon of water perday, and still was near dehydration at several points. I never got the opportunity to go to iraq, but it was hotter than texas in august ther, and from what i understand they were drinking significantly more water yet. The figures given by your gm seem entirely within reason. I could see a case for demihumans needing less on a case by case basis (and elans obviously needing none if they are living off repletion), especially with gnomes and halflings. Half orcs might however need even more given their greater body mass and the generally nocturnal proclivities that their orcish ancestors are heir to.

[ericgrau]

The key part is "in normal climates". Then a gallon per day is about right, or probably a bit low if you're traveling all day. Sitting around indoors 1/2 gallon per day is recommended, and you might be ok with less.

A pound of food seems really low though. I know trail rations are dry but even then it'd be hard to hit 2,000 calories. And if you're walking all day you probably need 3,000 or more. But then if gaming groups actually tracked travel they'd probably be riding horses instead of walking everywhere.

So I'd say both numbers are pretty minimal amounts sufficient only for temporary survival; often you'd need more. I suppose they were erring on the side of slightly generous. That plus a DM could always increase it based on conditions if he cares about it.

Hiking in a desert is especially bad, and 2-3 times as much isn't far off.

[Jack_Simth]

So the srd (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm) suggests a medium creature needs a gallon per day to survive.

Personally I don't get through even a third that much! Half, if I've been particularly active, maybe. I could get by on a quart per day and not feel any ill effects.

This has come up because one of my characters has found herself in a desert survival situation where water is being kept track of for the first time, and suddenly I'm needing 3-4 gallons of water per day (the day is 32hrs long, so increased consumption). That's more than ten times what I'd normally drink and even allowing for being in a desert I think it's a bit much.

That's up to eight waterskins per day each (40 for the group), and none of our characters were prepared for desert. We have a cleric who can cast 'create water', for 12 waterskinfuls per spell, but we don't have enough to hold it in (5 waterskins). We're in serious trouble, and I think the srd is to blame for overstating how much we need.

This sounds really really strange to me.
Well, ignoring the amount... it's really not all that bad.

Create Water is a cantrip. 0th level spell. A 1st level Cleric easily has the capacity for three of them before delving into higher level spells slots... and the cantrips aren't all that useful for other things. If you're a little higher than first (and it sounds like you're at 6th, given the number of waterskins full), then the Cleric can cast it five times per day. Spam Endure Elements (Cleric-1, 24 hour duration) to cut down on the water use (and avoid those pesky checks for heat exhaustion at the same time), and you're set, even with only having the five waterskins.

[Gwendol]

I can easily drink a liter water after working out (running, gym, etc) for 0.5 - 1 hour. In warm weather more may be needed, so the DMG does not seem unreasonable, depending on the activity of the individual.

[J-H]

This only sound strange to you because you've never tried doing anything outside in the Texas summer. It's pretty brutal. If I were even capable of working from 8am to 2pm outdoors non-stop in the middle of summer, I'd probably go through about a gallon and a half.

The standard I've heard for storing water (in case of emergency) is 2 gallons per person per day for drinking, cooking, and minimal cleaning. That seems about right if you're stationary.

[Marlowe]

I should clarify: We are at 3rd level. We aren't murder-hobos. We haven't done anything yet, except shelter from the noon sun under the lee of a dune and wait until dark...and we're already out of water until the Cleric recharges.

My character's already taking fort saves to avoid fatigue and non-lethal damage, simply because she only had one waterskin on her when unexpectedly zapped into this desert. We have a night's march and investigating a suspicious temple (which we have to do, there's a sandstorm coming and it's the only shelter in sight) before we get another drink.

I've already joked that we're all going to have to take a Cleric dip at 4th to get the spells to take care of ourselves. Assuming we survive that long.

The amount of water we would need to carry to avoid problems just seems very crippling. Assuming we knew we were going to be dumped into a desert at the start of the campaign in the first place. It's not the fault of the DM, the logistics are just...frightening.

Also, a minor consideration, but most of us are half-fey, fey-heritage human, draconic aasimar or the like, which throughs calculations based on what humans need a little off.

[ericgrau]

It's still hot though. You could make a case for 1-1.5 gallons standing still in the shade instead of the 3-4 gallons you need when travelling: http://www.aircav.com/survival/asch13/asch13p02.html

At 1 gallon per day the cleric simply prepares create water twice and you're fine.

Another issue could be never tracking water and then suddenly tracking it. Anybody who doesn't already have a waterskin should be assumed to have one. If you were away from a river when you suddenly ported then you should have more than that on hand, maybe a gallon or two. If OTOH you were all in town the entire campaign it's plausible that some people didn't even have a waterskin.

[Slipperychicken]

Or you play Pathfinder and have someone prepare Create Water.

[Telok]

I recall a canoe trip in the American southwest, near the four corners region, where we budgeted two gallons per person per day. It wasn't enough and water is heavy.

[PersonMan]

Talk to your DM about it. If he really wants to be a stickler, try to work something out where you can drink a lot less but are weakened - say, 1 con damage every 2 days or w/e.

You do know that Con damage equal to or less than 1/day will never have long-term effects, since you heal 1 point per day? It does reflect a sort of "up and down" pretty well if the Con damage hits a few hours after you wake up, though.

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

I just sit at a computer all day and I drink a gallon of water on an average day. I drink somewhere near 3-4 if I'm doing yard work in the heat.

So it would be realistic to believe that a group of murder hobos who are too paranoid to take off their heavy (in weight) armour in the middle of a desert, walking endlessly with no shade and the only breaks from this dreary march are those where they must fight for their very lives, would consume many gallons of water.

[Jacque]

Back when I was stationed in Iraq we were told to drink 12 liters (3 gallons I believe?) of water each day, which quite frankly wasn't a problem in that heat.

The amount of water needed differs from person to person and depends on your activity level, so an army doctor gave us the advice that we known we have had enough water if our urin at least once per day was clear like water.

[Spuddles]

Back when I was stationed in Iraq we were told to drink 12 liters (3 gallons I believe?) of water each day, which quite frankly wasn't a problem in that heat.

The amount of water needed differs from person to person and depends on your activity level, so an army doctor gave us the advice that we known we have had enough water if our urin at least once per day was clear like water.

That's a pretty good rule of thumb to make sure you're properly hydrated.

[RCgothic]

Well you all drink a frightening amount of water! As mentioned, I drink probably between a quart and two quarts a day, and I have no trouble with dehydration. In hot conditions (playing tennis in dubai), I would consume perhaps a gallon and a half, max. That's nearly 7 litres - I have no idea how I could possibly process more than that! If it were really that hot I think I'd succumb to heatstroke long before dehydration became an issue.

Our cleric only has one level of cleric, and can create six gallons of water off three castings, and this is our only supply of water.

We have five members of the group. If we start needing ten or more gallons of water per day we're going to be in serious trouble. 4 gallons is more than a quarter of my character's bodyweight. She isn't even wearing armour, having adopted sensible desert precautions. We're not fighting for our lives all day in the desert sun, we're sleeping through the day and walking at a measured pace by night without incident.

[Ashtagon]

Well you all drink a frightening amount of water! As mentioned, I drink probably between a quart and two quarts a day, and I have no trouble with dehydration. In hot conditions (playing tennis in dubai), I would consume perhaps a gallon and a half, max. That's nearly 7 litres - I have no idea how I could possibly process more than that! If it were really that hot I think I'd succumb to heatstroke long before dehydration became an issue.


Well, first off, you're female, so you may need less water anyway, due to (I assume) a lower overall body weight. These numbers are normally based off soldiers, who are (intended to be) prime specimens of manhood. Second, tennis in Dubai? I'm taking a wild guess that you had showers and air-conditioned rooms to retreat to afterwards (those are normally located close to most tennis courts in Dubai). That'll make a huge difference to your water needs. Finally, a lot of fluids are consumed in food, even though it may not appear so (http://www.ca.uky.edu/enri/pubs/enri129.pdf). Bananas, for example, are about 74% water, potatoes 79%, carrots 87%.

based on http://www.aircav.com/survival/asch13/asch13p02.html ...

50% time hours hard work in sun @ 30C (playing tennis)
50% time hours rest in shade @20 C (climate controlled)

7 litres of fluids sounds reasonable. Note that deserts can get far hotter, resulting in far higher water needs.

[HunterColt22]

Well you all drink a frightening amount of water! As mentioned, I drink probably between a quart and two quarts a day, and I have no trouble with dehydration. In hot conditions (playing tennis in dubai), I would consume perhaps a gallon and a half, max. That's nearly 7 litres - I have no idea how I could possibly process more than that! If it were really that hot I think I'd succumb to heatstroke long before dehydration became an issue.

Our cleric only has one level of cleric, and can create six gallons of water off three castings, and this is our only supply of water.

We have five members of the group. If we start needing ten or more gallons of water per day we're going to be in serious trouble. 4 gallons is more than a quarter of my character's bodyweight. She isn't even wearing armour, having adopted sensible desert precautions. We're not fighting for our lives all day in the desert sun, we're sleeping through the day and walking at a measured pace by night without incident.


:smallannoyed: Emphasis mine. See it's things like this that we need to help understand why you are finding these numbers so hard to believe. In that case then yes you should be getting by with the meager resources of water you have available because you have accommodated travel conditions to suit what you have.

Granted you still need a good supply of water when traveling in the desert no matter the circumstances, but doing it at night, and without having a need for armor helps lessen the burden greaterly. Also you would be surprised how quickly your body processes water, breathing, coughing, sneezing, bathroom, crying, sweat, eating etc. Almost everybody function we do we need water for. also fun science fact, remember urine is also only about 5% waste product, the rest is pure H20. I am still surprised you find this odd that the human body needs this much water, again we are between 55 - 75% water. :/

[Mando Knight]

This was a good thing. It's the sublimation of water that causes a drop in temperature (sublimation costs energy, which is taken in the form of heat). Sweat that drips off before it sublimates didn't help you.
Unless by sucking the sweat off, you mean it actually was lost before sublimation, sort of getting blown off.

Nitpick: sweat never sublimates (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sublimation_%28phase_transition%29), it evaporates. Unless you routinely sweat dry ice.

[Amphetryon]

Nitpick: sweat never sublimates (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sublimation_%28phase_transition%29), it evaporates. Unless you routinely sweat dry ice.

Doesn't everybody?

[ericgrau]

The issue seems pretty straightforward:
1. You drink little. Most people need 2 quarts with A/C and no activity. Maybe you're small or maybe you could benefit from more. Also realize that trail rations are dry food which is missing a tremendous amount of water.
2. You can make an argument to your DM for reduced water requirements for staying in the shade with minimal activity. See my link above.

Talk to the DM and meet somewhere in the middle. Have the cleric prepare 2 or 3 create water orisons, and problem solved. Back to the adventure.

[Laserlight]

That's up to eight waterskins per day each (40 for the group), and none of our characters were prepared for desert. We have a cleric who can cast 'create water', for 12 waterskinfuls per spell, but we don't have enough to hold it in (5 waterskins).

Kill one of your party members (not the cleric, obviously) and eat him, and that'll provide your water requirement for today.
Make waterskins from his hide, and that'll solve your water problems starting tomorrow.
See how easy that was?

Ahem.

You can check with your DM "Is this something you expected would affect us this badly?", but when he says "Yes, of course", then act like a PC and solve the problem rather than just complain about how unrealistic a problem it is. There's a well near the temple, or there are desert hares, or cacti, or a passing caravan, or something you can use to deal with this.

[ngilop]

how do you survie on only 32 ounces of liquid a day.. I mean I am saying this out of concern you need to see a doctor and see if anything is actually medically wrong with you.

SO what you are saying is you go the whole emtire day and maybe have 3 'cup's worht of a liquid? i call shenanigans on that (fyi most househood cups are 12-16 ounces) and thats not counting if you have milk with your cereal or have soup or stew or mashed potatoesm or macaroni and cheese or any sort of food like that.

I think the 1 gallon is a bit low myself I probably drink 2 gallons a day ( and a gallon of it during my 1.5 hr workout) not including other liquids i intake through out the day that is a part of my 'food'

[White_Drake]

Also, as somebody else noted, the book uses US gallons, not imperial gallons, so it would come out to approximately 5.6 litres, not 6.8.

[hymer]

@ Mando Knight: I applaud your nitpick. There's only so much specialized vocabulary you get from OED, and I'm glad and grateful to have learned better. :)

[RCgothic]

how do you survie on only 32 ounces of liquid a day.. I mean I am saying this out of concern you need to see a doctor and see if anything is actually medically wrong with you.

SO what you are saying is you go the whole emtire day and maybe have 3 'cup's worht of a liquid? i call shenanigans on that (fyi most househood cups are 12-16 ounces) and thats not counting if you have milk with your cereal or have soup or stew or mashed potatoesm or macaroni and cheese or any sort of food like that.

I think the 1 gallon is a bit low myself I probably drink 2 gallons a day ( and a gallon of it during my 1.5 hr workout) not including other liquids i intake through out the day that is a part of my 'food'

Seriously. I have a single 900ml glass of squash at work, and a single 300ml glass of fruit juice when I get home. That's 1.2litres, or about 1/3 of a US gallon. I already pee clear, and if I drink more it goes right through me. I'm reasonably tall and not overweight. You could maybe add another half-litre for food at most (my only moist meal of the day tends to be dinner).

There's nothing wrong with me, it's just the amount I require. The 8x8 rule is a myth, there isn't actually any evidence to support it.

[Marlowe]

It's probably best if I don't mention what my primary source of liquids are, but sufficeth to say they probably dehydrate me as much as they do anything else. :smallredface: And I don't need a lot of water. Days elapse without me drinking actual water.

I live in a certain country that is sometimes abbreviated the same as "Prestige Class". Drinking water, even from the coolers, tastes of rust and is kept warm. Drinking it makes me scared because I've had a mild case of dysentry once (in Korea, where conditions are generally better. Right up until the moment when they're not) and I don't want it again. The bottled water I need for cooking. I've had two medical checks in the past six months (because the Certain Country insists on one to let you into their country to work, then make you do it again because the first one didn't have a official Certain Countries stamp. And then charge you extra) and if there's anything wrong with me it's beyond the notice of the Certain Countries medicine.

I notice RCGothic and myself are both tall and "not-overweight" (well, I've had students tell me I look like EVA-01, to be honest). That's a body shape evolved for hot countries. Is it possible we both just need less liquids than you guys do?

[Friv]

You know, if you drink very little water compared to everyone else, it is probably not the case that you are the baseline and everyone else is bizarre...

I'm willing to concede that you apparently need exceptionally little water to get by. Most people need quite a bit more, and most people in hot climates need quite a bit more than that.

Anyway. Rules for how often you take damage for not having food or water in D&D are kind of silly, since while the onset's not bad it has the average person lapsing into a coma after an average 28 hours without water, which I think we can all agree is a little dumb. But the baseline is not incorrect.

[Solophoenix]

Interestingly, the Everfull Mug in the Magic Item Compendium doesn't produce anywhere near a gallon of water per day. It tops out at 36 ounces, a gallon is 128 ounces. That's a minimum of four mugs you need if you want to survive in a temperate climate.

As for keeping a mount watered, in the real world, a horse drinks about 30 gallons of water per day... EDIT: a hell of a lot.

EDIT: The standard PHB Waterskin holds 4lbs of water, which is only half a gallon.

[hymer]

a horse drinks about 30 gallons of water per day...

No it doesn't.

[Solophoenix]

Hrm, it would seem I can't find the source again for my figure there, but I definitely saw it posted somewhere by someone with a reasonable amount of equine experience. Other sources I can see say 10-12 gallons, which is still rather a lot to be carrying around.

[ThiagoMartell]

I'm just clarifying, here: The root of the complaint is that requiring your magic-wielding, lycanthrope-slaying, dragon-hunting fictional construct to drink a lot of water while traipsing through the desert is unrealistic, right? :smallwink:

*slow clap*
Well said, dude. Well said.

[hymer]

@ Solophoenix: Someone must've been having you on or there's some mistake. Even 10-12 gallons sounds like quite a lot to me, but maybe a horse that gets no grass and lives on dry fodder needs that much.
Of course, horses do go from Shetland ponies to Shire horses, but I'm thinking we're not talking ponies here.

Let's say a horse of a ton drank 30 gallons per day (let's make it American gallons): 113.7 litres, or well over 10% of its body weight. That's an obscene amount under normal circumstances. A more common riding horse would be about half that weight, and according to those numbers would consume close to 25% of their body weight in water per day. And do note you say 'drink' to boot. So my off-the-hip response was simply 'no'. Sorry if I came across rude.

Just for the record: I grew up around horses.

[Starbuck_II]

We have five members of the group. If we start needing ten or more gallons of water per day we're going to be in serious trouble. 4 gallons is more than a quarter of my character's bodyweight. She isn't even wearing armour, having adopted sensible desert precautions. We're not fighting for our lives all day in the desert sun, we're sleeping through the day and walking at a measured pace by night without incident.

32 pounds is more than 1/4th of your weight?

So you weigh about 128 lb?

[Solophoenix]

@ Solophoenix: Someone must've been having you on or there's some mistake. Even 10-12 gallons sounds like quite a lot to me, but maybe a horse that gets no grass and lives on dry fodder needs that much.
Of course, horses do go from Shetland ponies to Shire horses, but I'm thinking we're not talking ponies here.

Let's say a horse of a ton drank 30 gallons per day (let's make it American gallons): 113.7 litres, or well over 10% of its body weight. That's an obscene amount under normal circumstances. A more common riding horse would be about half that weight, and according to those numbers would consume close to 25% of their body weight in water per day. And do note you say 'drink' to boot. So my off-the-hip response was simply 'no'. Sorry if I came across rude.

Just for the record: I grew up around horses.


No problem. I freely admit that I know next to nothing about horses. I only mentioned it because I bought one for my character a couple of days ago, and did a quick google search to figure out if I could carry enough water for a day or two, in case the party didn't come across any streams.

[LeshLush]

Kill one of your party members (not the cleric, obviously) and eat him, and that'll provide your water requirement for today.
Make waterskins from his hide, and that'll solve your water problems starting tomorrow.
See how easy that was?
A man's body is his own, but his water belongs to the tribe.

[OracleofWuffing]

Come to think of it, isn't it just a Survival DC 10 to get along in the wild without needing food and water? Maybe you've just been taking ten all this time. :smalltongue:

[2xMachina]

Hmm, my case, 8 hour (1 hour break not included) duration, walking around in a hot area (40+ C), and I drank... 2-3L's at most.

[Duboris]

Endure elements

^

Mouse it over for the best possible solution.

[Yahzi]

I could get by on a quarter of that, and merely feel a bit thirsty.
And this is why people die in the desert. Being in the desert is very, very different than being anywhere else.

Although I agree 4 gallons seems an awful lot. A one-gallon base is fine, but the worst possible multiplier should be x2. Blame it on D&D's addiction to simple simulations and formulas. Not everything is a simple linear extrapolation, dang it!

[headwarpage]

I once spent a summer hiking the Appalachian Trail in the eastern U.S. If you're not familiar, that's a temperate, fairly moist climate, although it was a fairly hot, dry summer. I walked about 8-10 hours a day carring ~40 lbs., so it was probably pretty similar to a typical D&D adventuring day (except for the lack of combat), and I'd say I drank around a gallon a day, give or take a liter. Maybe even a little more when it was really hot. I remember hitchhiking into town a couple times just to get water.

Generally speaking, you need a lot of water when you're outdoors and active all day. If you only do it for a day or so at a time, you can get by with less, but it will catch up to you eventually. I generally refilled my water bottles two or three times a day. From experience, I can say that going even a single day without finding a water source requires some planning. Anything longer than that would be a serious hardship, and you'd almost have to have a pack animal dedicated to hauling water.

[Amphetryon]

And this is why people die in the desert. Being in the desert is very, very different than being anywhere else.

Although I agree 4 gallons seems an awful lot. A one-gallon base is fine, but the worst possible multiplier should be x2. Blame it on D&D's addiction to simple simulations and formulas. Not everything is a simple linear extrapolation, dang it!

It's as if they needed a simple, reasonably accurate formula that was appropriate for a large swath of statistically average people, knowing full well that there would be people who probably consume more or less than that amount.

[huttj509]

I once spent a summer hiking the Appalachian Trail in the eastern U.S. If you're not familiar, that's a temperate, fairly moist climate, although it was a fairly hot, dry summer. I walked about 8-10 hours a day carring ~40 lbs., so it was probably pretty similar to a typical D&D adventuring day (except for the lack of combat), and I'd say I drank around a gallon a day, give or take a liter. Maybe even a little more when it was really hot. I remember hitchhiking into town a couple times just to get water.

Generally speaking, you need a lot of water when you're outdoors and active all day. If you only do it for a day or so at a time, you can get by with less, but it will catch up to you eventually. I generally refilled my water bottles two or three times a day. From experience, I can say that going even a single day without finding a water source requires some planning. Anything longer than that would be a serious hardship, and you'd almost have to have a pack animal dedicated to hauling water.

Heh, one time I went clearing overgrown branches from a trail with my dad in the canyon behind our house. 6000 ft. elevation, dry, was not overly hot, but warm.

We went down with 2 gallons of water in my backpack. We came up with them empty, and we were down there for much less than a full day (3 hours? It was a while ago), though we were sawing through hard wood.

As to a comment about dehydrating drinks, the effect from caffeine and sugar is often exaggerated. Drinking a can of soda (or even pop :-) ) does not remove more water than it contains. You just get something like 2/3 of the water content you would if it were just water.

[kabreras]

Your Wizard wakes up, immediately grabs his tome and memorizes up to 80 pages of text in an hour (can you even read that much in an hour, and still understand it?). He then proceeds to shove a flavorless gruel ration stick down his throat, and stack as much random crap onto his back as his puny legs will carry without snapping, and run around almost continuously all day. He then proceeds to probably get himself savagely beaten by Orcs, but still carry through, waving his arms really fast and shouting to turn them into burnt goop, which he proceeds to rifle through for valuables, not taking so much as six seconds to catch his breath before the loot-spree, or even run into the next room full of angry guys with sharp swords.


You made my day ! I did read it 4 times laughing
Thanks

[LadyLexi]

I haven't had any water in like, 4 days. Weird. I think its reasonable to require that much water from superhumans that make up the D&D mundane world. I mean a commoner can run 120ft in 6 seconds, or 20ft per second for our non-math aligned. You need a lot of food and water when you're moving around like that.

[Jon_Dahl]

In my game, I want all medium characters to drink one full waterskin (4 pounds of water) per day. RAW regarding multiplying or halving this amount stand (hot day, drink twice the normal amount; small characters drink less etc.).

A waterskin for a medium character weighs 4 pounds. Why complicate the game with gallons? Especially for non-Americans that stuff is mind-numbing.

To be precise, the waterskin itself has weight. Thus, it's better to say that medium characters need to drink something like 3½ pounds of water per day, but that's ok.

[RCgothic]

32 pounds is more than 1/4th of your weight?

So you weigh about 128 lb?

My character does.

A gallon a day still sounds a lot to me, even for hiking in a temperate climate (though I concede not for doing so in armour and fighting repeatedly). So I suppose my issue is that d&d assumes you're hiking and fighting all day, even when you're not.

4 gallons per day also sounds like a lot as a percentage of body mass in my character's particular case. If she actually required that much water in 24hrs I'm pretty sure she'd already be dead of heat exhaustion. Just because you have enough water (by some miracle) doesn't mean fighting in the desert is a good idea.

Anyway, thanks for the input.:smallsmile:

[2xMachina]

I haven't had any water in like, 4 days. Weird. I think its reasonable to require that much water from superhumans that make up the D&D mundane world. I mean a commoner can run 120ft in 6 seconds, or 20ft per second for our non-math aligned. You need a lot of food and water when you're moving around like that.

... Please drink some water before you dehydrate...

[Starbuck_II]

I haven't had any water in like, 4 days. Weird. I think its reasonable to require that much water from superhumans that make up the D&D mundane world. I mean a commoner can run 120ft in 6 seconds, or 20ft per second for our non-math aligned. You need a lot of food and water when you're moving around like that.

Wait, so do you drink anything? Or do you just have a dry mouth all day?

[Amphetryon]

My character does.

A gallon a day still sounds a lot to me, even for hiking in a temperate climate (though I concede not for doing so in armour and fighting repeatedly). So I suppose my issue is that d&d assumes you're hiking and fighting all day, even when you're not.

4 gallons per day also sounds like a lot as a percentage of body mass in my character's particular case. If she actually required that much water in 24hrs I'm pretty sure she'd already be dead of heat exhaustion. Just because you have enough water (by some miracle) doesn't mean fighting in the desert is a good idea.

Anyway, thanks for the input.:smallsmile:I'm assuming the bolded portion is supposed to read "4 pounds a day" in reference to Jon Dahl's post?

[RCgothic]

No. We're in a very hot desert requiring 4x base water requirements.