[3.5] Ideas for character progression? (rog\beg)

[Norin]

Optimization or suggestions for my (CN) Human Rogue1/Beguiler1

Stats are something like this. (I do not have the sheet with me atm):
Str: 12
Dex: 17
Con: 13
Int: 16
Wis: 12
Cha: 14

Stats plan is +1 dex at lvl 4, then advance int the rest of the progession.

Equipment of note:
MW thieves tools
MW studded leather armour
MW rapier
Cloak of resistance +1

He was initialy intended to be a skillmonkey\sneaky scout for the group:

Human cleric2 of kossuth (LN)
Lesser tiefling conjurer2 (LN)
Human warblade2 (LG)
(Halfling fighter2 (CG?) rarely participating in the game)
(+possible new unknown char appearing the next session)

It's a campaign set in Forgotten Realms around Raven's Bluff if that's interesting to know.

I started out without a good plan really, and could not take wep finesse at lvl 1 so i went with point blank and precise shot and used a short bow and mostly stayed out of melee. This became boring fast.

Then when we got to lvl 2 i wanted a bigger toolbox and some casting fun, so i added a beguiler level to steer more towards BFC and "face" role. Beguiler fits my char concept and rogue class well imo fluff wise.

Now at lvl 3 im allowed to retrain the ranged feats if i want to in addition to my new lvl 3 feat.

What i was thinking was to advance beguiler untill i can dip 1 mindbender and get mindsight at lvl 9.

But then again i want to be able to use my rapier with weapon finesse and had an idea about getting TWF and use a dagger in my off hand. Not sure ill go that route after all.

As far as my role goes - the conjuror will most likely make me redundant as a caster and we all know how a wizard fills any role he wants to. As far as melee goes, i got nothing on the warblade unless i use my spells to get more sneak attacks - but then i need to advance more rogue levels and lose caster progression. As a face\social char, i have a shot, but still - it's nice to have some fun in combat too, right?

I was thinking i could go shadowmagic to up my DC and add even more fluff, but i do not want to have Shar as patron diety, and my wis is too low. The wis is also too low to go for any arcane devotion for more spells imo.

Unseen seer will gimp my spell dc's on everything but my very few divination spells. But otherwise that prc is quite nice for my concept.

Daggerspell mage is good too, but i do not have any spells that would be useful with the abilities the prc provides. This goes for Arcane Trickster i suppose too. My spell list is not optimal for damage.

So, do i just stick to beguiler and maybe get 2 more levels of roge somwhere down the road to get me evasion and +2d6 SA? This way i can probably use my spells to get into SA position alot more and be a bit useful in melee?

Or, do i just accept my rogue life to be over with and focus on advancing beguiler (with mindbender dip)?

Also what feats should i go for? Is it even worth it to go TWF + weapon finesse with my not so optimal BAB progression and low HP?

I want the skill trick "Concealed casting" as soon as possible. It looks cute.

I'm kind of at loss as to what path i should take from here.

So any ideas? Any suggestions?

(Yes, ive read the handbooks a few times, and still can not decide what route to take. And yes, if you are playing in my campaign and read this, feel free to mock me for asking advice on the forums. :P )

Edit: Typo and added some stuff.

[Pilo]

As rogues and Beguiler are close, maybe you can ask your DM to retrain your first level as Beguiler too and swap your Dex and Int ability scores. You will still be able to scout and find traps.

As you said TWF does not worth it because sneak attack often only works on the first one and you will have a not so great Bab.
Daggerspell mage seams like a bad idea.

Beguiler by itself is enough to qualify for Mindbender and Unseen Seer.

If you wanna keep going in frontline, Abjurant Champion may be a way, but you will have to sacrifice skill points to get full bab and d10 hit dice.

[Norin]

As rogues and Beguiler are close, maybe you can ask your DM to retrain your first level as Beguiler too and swap your Dex and Int ability scores. You will still be able to scout and find traps.


Not sure that is an option really. But having a base level of Rogue is "ok" i guess, if not optimized.



As you said TWF does not worth it because sneak attack often only works on the first one and you will have a not so great Bab.
Daggerspell mage seams like a bad idea.


The twf was an idea to just get in a bit of damage when using things like invis spell to get close and then doing a full attack with SA damage on top. Not optimal, but could still be fun.



Beguiler by itself is enough to qualify for Mindbender and Unseen Seer.


Yes, mindbender dip is what i'm going for anyways. The Unseen seer is not good with my Beguiler spell list though.



If you wanna keep going in frontline, Abjurant Champion may be a way, but you will have to sacrifice skill points to get full bab and d10 hit dice.

Abjurant champion is an idea, yes. But again, Beguilers do not have Shield spell on the spell list, and will not be available through advanced learning either. So i would be stuck with a boosted mage armour. Not too many Abj spells on my list. :/

The bab\full caster\hit dice is good enough to help me into melee shenanigans though... yes.

[Pilo]

Unseen seer is good for the 3/4 bab, the sneak attack progression and the improve of spellcasting.

If you were not that feat starved, Practised spellcaster may protect you against Divination Spell Power.

[Norin]

Unseen seer is good for the 3/4 bab, the sneak attack progression and the improve of spellcasting.

If you were not that feat starved, Practised spellcaster may protect you against Divination Spell Power.

I agree.

But:


Divination Spell Power (Ex): At 3rd level, you gain a +1 bonus to your caster level when casting an arcane divination spell. This bonus improves to +2 at 6th level, and to +3 at 9th level.

This benefit comes at a cost: Your caster level for all other arcane spells is reduced by 1 at 3rd level. This reduction becomes 2 at 6th level and becomes 3 at 9th level. For example, a 4th-level rogue/1st-level sorcerer/6th-level unseen seer would have a caster level of 9th for her arcane divination spells, but only 5th for her nondivination arcane spells.

This will make my casting stink as far as any spell not from the divination school.

Is it still worth it?

edit- Practiced spellcaster is a good idea, yeah. I could get that from retraining my ranged feats. Hmm... Good idea!

(retraining has been houseruled to allow me to retrain a feat that i initialy did not meet the prereq's for at lvl 1, at dm's discretion of course, and one time only)

[Morrolan]

Daggerspell mage is good too, but i do not have any spells that would be useful with the abilities the prc provides. This goes for Arcane Trickster i suppose too. My spell list is not optimal for damage.


Take the feat Arcane Strike, suddently they are!

[Norin]

Take the feat Arcane Strike, suddently they are!

True that arcane strike helps.

But the abilities of the daggerspell mage normaly goes with damage dealing spells. And Beguilers are rather starved for those.

Arcane strike could be an idea without the daggerspell prc though. Noted.

Edit:

Possible build draft:

Level Class Feats
1 Rogue 1 Point blank shot, Precise shot
2 Beguiler 1
3 Beguiler 2 Weapon finesse (+retraining ranged feats for something more useful, maybe TWF + Improved initiative?)
4 Beguiler 3
5 Beguiler 4
6 Beguiler 5 Practiced spellcaster [Beguiler]
7 Mindbender 1
8 Beguiler 6
9 Beguiler 7 Mindsight
10 Unseen seer 1
11 Unseen seer 2
12 Unseen seer 3 Arcane Strike?
13 Unseen seer 4
14 Unseen seer 5
15 Beguiler 8 Feat
16 Beguiler 9
17 Beguiler 10
18 Beguiler 11 Feat
19 Beguiler 12
20 Beguiler 13

[Morrolan]

Seems like a nice build. Is practiced spellcaster worth is when you are only missing 1 level of beguiler?

Alternatively (or aditionally if it fits), if I am not mistaken, beguiler gets haste, so you could get some levels of Swiftblade (http://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.wizards.com/default.asp%3Fx%3Ddnd/prc/20070327&sa=U&ei=DaWrUPaiH4aWtQaKqoDwCg&ved=0CBUQFjAA&usg=AFQjCNFA-dh2XGThhQMjcnoPMrjzMf-25A).

[Norin]

Seems like a nice build. Is practiced spellcaster worth is when you are only missing 1 level of beguiler?

Alternatively (or aditionally if it fits), if I am not mistaken, beguiler gets haste, so you could get some levels of Swiftblade (http://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.wizards.com/default.asp%3Fx%3Ddnd/prc/20070327&sa=U&ei=DaWrUPaiH4aWtQaKqoDwCg&ved=0CBUQFjAA&usg=AFQjCNFA-dh2XGThhQMjcnoPMrjzMf-25A).

Practiced spellcaster will be there to offset the drawback on caster levels for every school except Divination when i go into Unseen Seer. But at what level to add it to the build, i'm not sure.

I do not think DM allows Swiftblade since it's web based and not in a book as far as i know. But ill look into it. Thanks.

[Keld Denar]

Beguiler really doesn't make a good chassis for the typical Arcane Rogue style build. It lacks a lot of the basic protective and offensive spells that really make the blend work.

I'd simplify the build. See if your DM will let you change that first level to Beguiler, then fully all of the awesomness that goes with it. Dip you're Mindbender, but otherwise sick to pure Beguiler. It is solid.

[Thespianus]

The basic build is a lot of fun, but I hope you can retrain both your ranged feats.

As a Beguiler, you have lousy BAB. Unless you are completely married to the idea that you want to maximize your casting, you can see yourself as a "skillmonkey with good casting casting support and decent Sneak Attacks".

As you've noticed as a Rogue 1/Beguiler 1, your BAB is not impressive. ;)

This is what I would do, given that the party already has an Arcane caster.

Level 3: Beguiler 2, get Weapon Finesse. Retrain PBS to Practiced Spellcaster and Precise Shot for Craven.

Level 4: Rogue 2. Evasion, put skillpoints in the skills you need for Unseen Seer and UMD

Level 5: Rogue 3. SA +2D6 after level 5, you should now qualify for Unseen Seer.

Level 6: Unseen Seer 1. SA +3D6 ( +6 with Craven) , Get TWF as your Feat if you want to, otherwise Extend Spell is good for a Beguiler.

Level 7: Unseen Seer 2. Get Hunter's Eye as your Advanced Learning spell. You will now be able to do 5D6+7 worth of Sneak Attack. Also, you get Silent Spell.

Level 8: Beguiler 3: Advanced Learning will give you, for example, Greater Invisibility, since you now are allowed 3rd level spells EDIT: My bad, Greater Invisibility is a level 4 spell for Beguilers. Then there are better spells, naturally. Ray of Stupidity can be taken AND it should allow you Sneak Attack damage (Negative Energy) for using a Ray. Might wanna check with the DM, though.

Level 9: Unseen Seer 3: Here's a nice Feat slot to take Arcane Strike, if you want it.

Level 10: Unseen Seer 4: More Sneak Attack Dice


Beyond this, just alternate Beguiler and Unseen Seer as you see fit. ;) Note, at level 5 Beguiler you get Silent Spell. You already have this from your Unseen Seer, so ask your DM if you can swap that for Extend Spell (if you don't have it) or Quicken Spell.

I'm sure there will be friendly people telling me this sucks, but I find it yields a decent mix of Sneakiness with some stabbity-stab and some good, solid Beguiler casting.

Don't forget Use Magic Device for all your Boom-Boom needs. ;) A Wand of Lesser Orb of Sound or similar will do you good.

Or you can completely change this around, and go for all out casting. Then I would suggest All Out Beguiler.

EDIT: Keld Denar is right that the traditional Arcane Rogue doesn't benefit a lot from the Beguiler base class, so this also boils down to the OP level of your party.

[Norin]

The basic build is a lot of fun, but I hope you can retrain both your ranged feats.

~snip snip~


Yes, that's the deal. I can retrain both if i want to.

I like your build here, and the char concept. The only issues i have is:

-That 2nd level spells like invis and knock comes pretty late here. Also i miss out on 9th level spells if we end up playing this campaign for long enough. Not sure that is all important though.

-At level 8 i will be caster level 5 with 2nd level beguiler spells, so Greater invis wont be available as my advanced learning choice unfortunately... Also it's a 4th level spell, not 3rd... Then again, it's already on my spell list i see, so that's no biggie. ;) Ill get it eventually anyways.

I also wonder if going all levels of Us will be better than advancing alot more in beguiler after 9th\10th level? If i go this caster\sneak attacker path, id want as much SA from the US PrC as possible right? The drawbacks in caster level from the divination spell power will always be fixed but Practiced spellcaster anyways.

Or will the abilities gained from beguiler levels outweigh the extra SA dices?

Thanks for all your ideas btw. ;)

EDIT: Ah, you noticed the greater invis thing too! ;)

And yes, it's not optimized, but the synergy between the beguiler and a sneaky rogue type fluff and spells-wise is pretty cool in my opinion. That's why i went there. If i was a bit smart and wanted to op this build more, id make a plan for it all before starting the game.

[Thespianus]

-That 2nd level spells like invis and knock comes pretty late here. Also i miss out on 9th level spells if we end up playing this campaign for long enough. Not sure that is all important though.

Yes, the delayed casting will be a bit of a bother. Then again, if you play as a Rogue the first levels, it won't really matter much. The Rogue levels will give you increased 1/1 BAB for each level from 2 to 4, so you can do SOME damage with Weapon Finesse at level 3. Also Evasion is nice, depending on your DMs play style.

You won't get lvl 9 spells, and if you plan on going that far, that IS a problem.


I also wonder if going all levels of Us will be better than advancing alot more in beguiler after 9th\10th level? If i go this caster\sneak attacker path, id want as much SA from the US PrC as possible right? The drawbacks in caster level from the divination spell power will always be fixed but Practiced spellcaster anyways.
Unfortunately, if you keep going with US, you will lose more spell power than Practiced Spellcaster will boost for you, due to the three Rogue levels. So there is a trade off. BAB for effective CL, basically.


Or will the abilities gained from beguiler levels outweigh the extra SA dices?
I believe that you, at one point or another, will realize that you have 1D6 hit dice, and you will want to be away from the front line anyway. ;)

[Archmage1]

Just as a side note, Most of a Beguiler's effective spells are not affected too much by lost CL, as they are mostly not going to be facing SR, and their durations should be reasonable enough without it

Wait, you are thinking, the enchantment school: Most creatures with SR have very high will saves, or are immune to enchantment or are both

[Norin]

I believe that you, at one point or another, will realize that you have 1D6 hit dice, and you will want to be away from the front line anyway. ;)

Yeah. Maybe just run this more or less pure caster (beguiler with mindbender dip) and go for that background BFC\face\debuffer\sneaky char.

I mean, if i want to cast spells and do melee, i should just make a new char. Something like:

Duskblade with glaive, power attack, arcane strike, konwledge devotion, arcane disciple for expaneded spell list. Or even some more elaborate Gish build with Wiz/Abjurant Chapion/+++.

It's a matter of knowing your place in the group i guess, and somethines feeling a bit redundant among 2 tier 1 casters and a high damage greatsword wielding warblade. :smallbiggrin:

[Thespianus]

It's a matter of knowing your place in the group i guess, and somethines feeling a bit redundant among 2 tier 1 casters and a high damage greatsword wielding warblade. :smallbiggrin:
If your Illusion spells, Haste and other distractions can help the others to shine, you can find a niche there.

But yes, as a Beguiler, you won't be the guy who finishes up the bad guys and ends the battles. You can, however, be the guy who makes the battles start exactly the way your side wants them to start. :)

[Keld Denar]

The synergy between Rogue and Beguiler is mostly imagined. The only synergy they have is that both wear light armor and both have similar skill lists. Overlapping skill lists don't care where you get the points, though, as long as you have then. There is very little difference between a Rogue 10 with a 14 Int and a Beguiler 10 with an 18 Int. In light of that, you are better off with either/or, but not both. There is very little synergy between Sneak Attack and Beguiler casting, since for the most part, you can't do both at once. If you try to do both, you will lament your lack of SA dice while attacking and you will lament your lack of better, higher level spells when casting. If you really want to blend the two, use the superior Wizard spell list to get spells you can SA with.

[Norin]

The synergy between Rogue and Beguiler is mostly imagined. The only synergy they have is that both wear light armor and both have similar skill lists. Overlapping skill lists don't care where you get the points, though, as long as you have then. There is very little difference between a Rogue 10 with a 14 Int and a Beguiler 10 with an 18 Int. In light of that, you are better off with either/or, but not both. There is very little synergy between Sneak Attack and Beguiler casting, since for the most part, you can't do both at once. If you try to do both, you will lament your lack of SA dice while attacking and you will lament your lack of better, higher level spells when casting. If you really want to blend the two, use the superior Wizard spell list to get spells you can SA with.

You speak truth, sir. And that's why i made this thread. Suggestions as to how i could preogress this ill optimized char.

But, the synergy is in my opinion present, but more in terms of fluff and flavour really. I know a wizard would be better suited than beguiler combined with Rogue. Then going Arcane Trickster, daggerspell, or whatever.

Option 1: Progress this char as a caster and accept my role as stated earlier.
Option 2: Die, and remake a char that can hold his own in combat if that's what i really wanted to play in the first place.

[Keld Denar]

Option 1 is fine.

But tell me, how is a Beguiler1/Rogue1 different fluffwise than a Beguiler2? Both have 5 ranks in Bluff, Tumble, UMD, etc. If you don't plan on using SA much, then it doesn't really matter if you have it or not. Again, even RP-wise, the only synergy is the overlapping skill lists, and that's not so much a synergy as a redundancy.

I'd go caster primary, pick up the Mindbender dip, and be done.

[nedz]

Keld's advice is solid, but there is another option.

That is to build a rogue with a few spells to give you more options. Beguiler was probably not the best choice but you already have enough arcane casting to qualify for Unseen Seer. So you could just keep advancing Rogue until you can enter US — which is, I think, Rogue +2. This will cost you 1 1/2 dice of sneak and 3 levels of casting. A full caster will always be more powerful but you will have a very useful skill monkey. The worst course of action would be to flip flop between these paths: you have to decide before your next level.
There are a number of PrCs you could exit into at level 15, which you will need to decide long before you get to that point.

[Norin]

Seems the new char that is supposed to join the campaign is another Tier 1... a druid. Oh my! :smallbiggrin:

This is all going downhill for my poorly planned chracter. Haha. :smallannoyed: