time travel advice

[leegi0n]

Would it make sense for the Githzerai to be able to time travel? Especially, if you mix it with a format like the Vistani use, via the mists?

Astral Plane + the Mist = ?

I would like to end a current campaign like this. The PCs have encountered and made somewhat of an alliance with the Githzerai because of a common thread (families enslaved).

After the big, epic battle and the double reveal, the Githzerai, take the party (fallen or not) back in time to where our story began about 3 years ago.

What do you think playgrounders?

[limejuicepowder]

Oh boy time travel is a tough one.

For starters, what kind of a plot-required limits are going to be on the time travel? After all, if it's even slightly easy to do, why wouldn't the githzerai use it all of the time and avoid all of their problems?

Also, are you using a singular time line style, or parallel universes? Basically, can events be changed or not?

Other than that, I like time travel - it makes for an awesome "twist." It can just get really wonky if you're not careful.

[Telonius]

If you go that route, I'd really suggest that there are clear rules as to what you can and can't do with Time Travel. Not necessarily "universal laws" that say you can and can't do this - but "risk war with Mechanus, led by an elite legion of Quaruts, if you screw things up too much" rules.

[hymer]

I try to avoid time travel as best I can as a DM. In those worlds where it is possible, I have religious and magical organisations to keep it under strict control, because the fabric of everything gets ruined so easily.

Time travel in extended stories tends to cause all sorts og inconsistencies and plotoles.

[ahenobarbi]

Wizards have spell for that (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/pg/20030409b)

[leegi0n]

Oh boy time travel is a tough one.

For starters, what kind of a plot-required limits are going to be on the time travel? After all, if it's even slightly easy to do, why wouldn't the githzerai use it all of the time and avoid all of their problems?

Also, are you using a singular time line style, or parallel universes? Basically, can events be changed or not?

Other than that, I like time travel - it makes for an awesome "twist." It can just get really wonky if you're not careful.


I have an old old character that I've plugged in sparingly, as an NPC. He's essentially a ridiculously powerful Wizard/Fate Spinner/ArchMage/Alienist (lvl 32, I believe) that loves to hang out in the Far Plane. He has been scrying this party off an on for some time now because they are on the verge of discovering something that he would rather keep secret.

I was thinking I could involve him as the "force" behind what the Githzerai do at the end of the game. His goal, in sending the party back would be to reset their memories from what they've discovered at the end of this campaign (dealing with a devils' gate) that he wants to keep under his hat for now.

He could actually help provide the means for the githzerai to travel, if they are unable on their own.

There won't be any rules or consequences for it, as of now. I will end the campaign shortly after the time travel is complete and there won't be any more game play for this group of characters. I may revisit later and run a "nemesis" game. Characters vs. themselves, oppositely aligned. Maybe.

Regardless, it would be way down the road, if at all.

I think dumping them off, after planar travel back in time and cliffhanging it there would be sweetness.

Thoughts? Advice?

[Piggy Knowles]

I started work on a campaign once that centered around a time traveling artifact. The catch? It could only travel forward in time, never backwards. Unfortunately the game didn't end up happening, but I'm pretty sure I could have pulled it off without too many plot holes.

There were also some cases of backwards time travel, but they had already happened, and weren't things the PCs could reproduce.

[hymer]

@ PK: We're all travelling forward in time, so increasing the speed of that is probably alot less wonky than reversing it.

@ OP: Go for it. It's the end of a campaign, make it BIG.

[limejuicepowder]

I have an old old character that I've plugged in sparingly, as an NPC. He's essentially a ridiculously powerful Wizard/Fate Spinner/ArchMage/Alienist (lvl 32, I believe) that loves to hang out in the Far Plane. He has been scrying this party off an on for some time now because they are on the verge of discovering something that he would rather keep secret.

I was thinking I could involve him as the "force" behind what the Githzerai do at the end of the game. His goal, in sending the party back would be to reset their memories from what they've discovered at the end of this campaign (dealing with a devils' gate) that he wants to keep under his hat for now.

He could actually help provide the means for the githzerai to travel, if they are unable on their own.

There won't be any rules or consequences for it, as of now. I will end the campaign shortly after the time travel is complete and there won't be any more game play for this group of characters. I may revisit later and run a "nemesis" game. Characters vs. themselves, oppositely aligned. Maybe.

Regardless, it would be way down the road, if at all.

I think dumping them off, after planar travel back in time and cliffhanging it there would be sweetness.

Thoughts? Advice?

Basically, the end of the campaign is going to be "god" showing up and undoing the entire thing? I would think that was cool, but some people might not. You know your players best though. Tread carefully.

Also, if this wizard character can time travel, what information could the PC's possibly get that would annoy him, short of the secrets of doing exactly what he does? Unless he's a "overseer" type that wants to deny them the information cause he thinks it'll be more fun to watch them without them knowing that bit of secret lore.

Still though, like most things, if it's done well it'll work fine. If it really is the end of the campaign, you won't have to worry AS MUCH about it ruining the plot. Just be careful about what kind of questions it raises - why wasn't it used before, what's this entities' purpose, that sort of thing.

If I was a player in the game, I would want (maybe even demand) a continuation of that campaign - I would want to know why it went down like that.

Knowing virtually nothing about the story thus far, here's what I think happened:

The nearly omnipotent wizard has watched the players for a long time, greatly amused by their mortal blundering. Eventually however, the wizard realized something awful: they were about to stumble upon the same secret he had found eons ago, and it would give them the same power he had. Not the sharing type, he used his power to move the characters from the offending time line to another parallel universe, a universe where the characters would have no chance to discover the secret. He knew that killing them would not be good enough, for even in death they would still exist in that time line and thus might still discover the secret. Moving them to another time, another awful time, was the only permanent solution he had.

Unknowingly upon the brink of the greatest success of their lives, the characters are now in a torturous world they don't understand, made all the more dangerous by their very existence. In his panic and hubris, the wizard has overlooked one thing: a person cannot BE separate from his time, for his life is what makes him who he is. Thus, when he moved them, the characters have dragged their own time line with them. Now their original universe and their new universe are swirling together, to the peril of all who live there. The character must now unravel the mystery and get back to their own world before it is all destroyed.

Yes I was inspired by Samurai Jack.

[Tvtyrant]

About the Giths: I don't think them traveling through time is particularly sound, because they would have gone back and prevented the rise of the Ithiliad Empire by now. Unless you want to start throwing Time Locks and other such contrivances on there.

Mechanical Time Travel Trick
The best way I know of to time travel is to use Extended Mass Time Hop a few hundred times on yourself, then use a single use dorje of Time Regression to go back to any point in the time you "slept" through. Pick something that does not die of ageing, and you can travel back and forth over a long stretch of time as you want.

[nedz]

Travelling forwards in time is never a problem.

Travelling backwards in time violates causality and breaks the universe.
There are a whole host of paradoxes that become possible when you allow this which means that the only safe way to do it is on a plot rail road, YMMV.

[leegi0n]

Basically, the end of the campaign is going to be "god" showing up and undoing the entire thing? I would think that was cool, but some people might not. You know your players best though. Tread carefully.

Also, if this wizard character can time travel, what information could the PC's possibly get that would annoy him, short of the secrets of doing exactly what he does? Unless he's a "overseer" type that wants to deny them the information cause he thinks it'll be more fun to watch them without them knowing that bit of secret lore.

Still though, like most things, if it's done well it'll work fine. If it really is the end of the campaign, you won't have to worry AS MUCH about it ruining the plot. Just be careful about what kind of questions it raises - why wasn't it used before, what's this entities' purpose, that sort of thing.

If I was a player in the game, I would want (maybe even demand) a continuation of that campaign - I would want to know why it went down like that.

Knowing virtually nothing about the story thus far, here's what I think happened:

The nearly omnipotent wizard has watched the players for a long time, greatly amused by their mortal blundering. Eventually however, the wizard realized something awful: they were about to stumble upon the same secret he had found eons ago, and it would give them the same power he had. Not the sharing type, he used his power to move the characters from the offending time line to another parallel universe, a universe where the characters would have no chance to discover the secret. He knew that killing them would not be good enough, for even in death they would still exist in that time line and thus might still discover the secret. Moving them to another time, another awful time, was the only permanent solution he had.

Unknowingly upon the brink of the greatest success of their lives, the characters are now in a torturous world they don't understand, made all the more dangerous by their very existence. In his panic and hubris, the wizard has overlooked one thing: a person cannot BE separate from his time, for his life is what makes him who he is. Thus, when he moved them, the characters have dragged their own time line with them. Now their original universe and their new universe are swirling together, to the peril of all who live there. The character must now unravel the mystery and get back to their own world before it is all destroyed.

Yes I was inspired by Samurai Jack.


AWESOME. I have, admittedly been somewhat inspired by the AD&D story "Night Below", except instead of Aboleths, I'm making Devils the big scary force behind it. I will input some of the story here and see if it gives you any other insight.

First off, I need to say that the semi-omnipotent mage is the kind who would manipulate others for pure entertainment. Essentially, his power and knowledge has driven him to the verge of madness and he has grown bored with "daily life". He is volatile and unpredictable, but very diplomatic and charismatic. At one point he was entertained by the thought that this group of adventurers were searching for something that would ultimately reveal what he has going on. He liked the risk and the unpredictability of a hearty, smart, resourceful group. Unfortunately, he underestimated them and by the end of this story will have panicked and instead of killing them, via whatever means he chooses, sends them back through time so that they will have to endure bizarro world forever more and remember nothing about this.

NOW, for the story elements behind this and my "night below" reference.

In a proverbial nutshell:

Illithids (in league/contract with a Devil - probably Mammon) are abducting arcane/divine/and alchemical practitioners (under threat of hell) and their minds and talents are being used as "fuel" to create a doomsday machine kind of gate that is situated on a rift, deep in the underdark that will allow the Elder Evils to enter the material plane. The rift is most accessible every 10 thousand years and the anniversary is coming around. The last time this happened, the plan was foiled when demons caught wind of what was going on, appeared on the scene with the resident devils, etc. and because of the little blood-feud, inadvertently destroyed the gate that was being built and erupted about 500 miles of the underdark in the form of a volcano, scarring the landscape. Since then, the Illithids and their slaves (still under contract) have been collecting magically affluent folk and are rebuilding the gate for the time that is approaching.

One of the PCs lost an aunt who "raised her" in absentia of her parents. She didn't just LOSE her, she was abducted by these Illithids. Her aunt was a powerful herbalist/alchemist. She doesn't know how or why she was taken but when the other magic users from her home town disappeared too, she assumed that she had been taken. The party has spent the past couple years gathering information, etc., trying to ultimately find her aunt.

Another of the PCs is a Psion. His parents and family are of gypsy lineage, much like the Vistani. They are Hexers and Psions. A group of Illithids took him when he was a toddler, planted a bug in his head, and set him loose again in the world to watch him develop, all the while putting their twist on his brain from afar. To the point where he actually started to take on the physical attributes of a Flayer. This has since been remedied, by the "semi-omnipotent mage." The problem with that is, now the character must retrain his brain and he acts like he just got dropped out of arkham asylum, but the Illithids no longer have control over him.

The afore mentioned female character is a ranger/scout/apothecarian herbalist and she has essentially taken this psion under her wing, almost like a little brother, to protect him from himself basically.

The Rakshasa is a recurring NPC character that has given the group missions for him that ultimately have helped guide them get to where he wants them to be...dead. He assumes that they are going to die long before they discover and retrieve her aunt and they will prove beneficial to him for his selfish wants as long as he keeps dripping valuable information to them as to the aunt's whereabouts. When they die, he will take back all that he wants and go about his business.

Should I make the 'semi-omnipotent' mage and this rakshasa one and the same? Perhaps the rakshasa is working for the mage?


...because, here's where I'm going with this -

They are going to meet the psions original parents/family. The gypsies. The gypsies are going to worship and be in league with the Githzerai. The Githzerai are trying to amass a group to stop the Illithids and the Devil's from completing this gate and opening the rift. This is how the PCs will ultimately find the aunt, along with thousands of other magic users, enslaved to power this developing device.

Here's a twist. The aunt has a special purpose, she is one of the last in a special bloodline that has the genetic markers in her blood that can "close" the gate in an emergency or if the need to abort should happen. She is being kept in a special area near a sacrificial/bloodletting altar, prepped for such an occasion.

The PCs will somehow get to her, and try to save her. By this time, war has erupted in the underdark. The drow are involved, the githzerai are involved. Flayers vs. drow vs. Githzerai vs. Baatezu. It's nasty. ...and the gate is starting to open.

The Rakshasa appears on the scene and attacks the group with a summoned devil of sorts. The devil targets the aunt. The group will ultimately win this fight and as the summon spell dies with the devil, it will kill the aunt. The Rakshasa will tell about the aunt's purpose and reveal that she is not actually the female character's aunt, why should she care. "After all I have carried you through and done for you, you owe me your allegiance," type speech. ...and that the gate must open. I anticipate the PCs attacking the Rakshasa at this point and the female character will be blown back at some point, hitting the altar. When she picks herself up, bloodied....REVEAL: she is of the same lineage and her blood closes the gate. A mass summons is carried out and, once again, demons show up. Devils vs. Demons ensues.

The Githzerai get the PCs out of there and take them back in time.


Anyone wanna contribute to that? Especially how the "semi-omnipotent mage" would work best with the Rakshasa. Could it be a manifested, split-personality?

Honestly, at this point, after writing all that, I'm debating the time travel thing. It would make for some good history in this homebrew world.

[limejuicepowder]

-stuff-

Lemme make sure I've got this all straight:
- The PC's at this point don't know the wizard
- The herbalist character was raised by an aunt whole has the power to close the portal
- They've gotten a lot of their information from a rakshasa who is actually working with/for the devils who want to open the portal (do the PC's know he's a rakshasa?)
- The final showdown is going to basically be the rakshasa revealing his hand, cumulating in the herbalist accidentally triggering a massive deman vs devil battle in the underdark
- The githzerai are going to flee the battle through time, taking the PC's with them

Yes?

If this is right, why bring in the wizard at all? It seems slightly odd to introduce such a powerful character as the credits are rolling.

I would say don't bother with the time travel at all. Depending on what kind of ending you think your players will like, I would go with one of two things:

1) The PC's make a heroic last stand against the legions of evil. After the encounter with the rakshasa is over (with him fleeing, leaving with the parting jab, or dead), the githzerai approach the PC's and inform them that even though the portal has been closed, some evil has managed to get though. Whisking the players off, they fight a massive horde of foul creatures in a desperate attempt to prevent further conquest of the material world. This will ultimately result in the PC's death. Finish the story with an epilogue of the thoughts of a githzerai warrior that was also in the fight. Great admiration for the PC's is expressed throughout.

2) The githzerai come and take the player away, but this time to safety. A gith commander brings them up to speed on what happened: with the closing the portal, the battle broke down in to a wretched devil vs deman fight. True danger was already averted with the closing of the portal however, and the githzerai thought it best to just stay out of the way. They throw a massive awards ceremony for the PC's and shower them with phat loot.

[limejuicepowder]

Out of curiosity, what level are your PCs?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Given the incredible head-ache involved in adjudication, the best advice I can give you on how to handle time-travel is this: for the sake of your own sanity, just don't do it man.

PC's muck up everthing they get near, and you want to let them loose on the time-stream? Gods, why?

*shivers at the horrific implications*

[NichG]

I love games with time travel. It is possible to do and make it coherent and not even that difficult to run. My advice is:

1. Get used to improvising. Something in the past changes, thats license to utterly alter the setting, or to only make a few small changes. Unless the time travelers have some sort of power to identify what exactly will change as the result of their actions, this is all on the DM to interpolate out.

2. Time travel has real cost. This is the key one. Someone with a spell combo that lets them time travel whenever they have a day to spare is going to rip the campaign apart. But someone who knows they can only ever travel in time 5 times before the universe ejects them as too paradoxical will have an interesting choice to make as far as whether to use his trivial solution or try to do it another way. Another way to do it is to make the opportunities and destinations uncertainty - better to spend a few games in Ancient Greece than to hit Ancient Greece, Future England, and 1800s Mexico in one session. One setting a session and no travel within session is I think the limit to a good fast-paced time travel campaign.

A variant of this in a campaign I was in was that travel is free, but changing things costs generally from 1-4 paradox, and if you hit 9 the universe expels you and undoes all your changes. You could take 1 paradox for failing to properly say the right things, dress the right way, etc when going to a place that you had or will have been. 4 was for big changes like 'Genghis Khan never became a leader or conqueror'. You could alter a lot of stuff in the feasible span of the party's career, but each individual started sweating a bit about making too many changes as the Paradox accumulated.

3. Not everything can be changed. You can do a lot of stuff here - an archvillain with the power to fix certain events in time, while the PCs navigate a constantly shrinking web of flexible events; certain types of actions can't be reversed; historical inertia pushes things of major importance to stay the same, but individuals can be saved (the celebrity-collector style of campaign, where the PCs are rescuing famous people at the moments of their deaths), etc. Its best if these fixed things are really visible so players don't get pointlessly frustrated.

4. Time travel has weird limits. You can only travel in your life. You can only travel more than 1000 years. You can only travel if someone invites you into that time. You can only travel between two specific sets of moments, and when they pass then thats it, its done. This can also help limit time travel as a universal answer.

[leegi0n]

Out of curiosity, what level are your PCs?

9 players - all at level 14



Lemme make sure I've got this all straight:
- The PC's at this point don't know the wizard
- The herbalist character was raised by an aunt whole has the power to close the portal
- They've gotten a lot of their information from a rakshasa who is actually working with/for the devils who want to open the portal (do the PC's know he's a rakshasa?)
- The final showdown is going to basically be the rakshasa revealing his hand, cumulating in the herbalist accidentally triggering a massive deman vs devil battle in the underdark
- The githzerai are going to flee the battle through time, taking the PC's with them

Yes?

First, I think I'm gonna scrap the time travel thing. I had a bigger idea that would have begun with that ending, but I'm going to abandon that. I'm going to do the epic fight and let the chips lie where they fall. At some point, the Githzerai will bail the PCs out though.

Now, for your questions:

1. The PCs DO know the wizard. They met him when they (long story short) ended up in the far plane. They told him then what they were up to, seeking out the aunt and mentioned the name of the continent where they thought she was (according to the rakshasa). Ironically, the wizard was already aware of the gate ON THE SAME CONTINENT that the PCs where bound for and knew about the aunt. He didn't tell them though. He thought it amazing that he should meet a family member of hers, considering her rare importance in the whole thing. So, he teleported them to the continent, never eluding that he knew anything. Since then, he has been scrying them and watching what they do.

2. Her "aunt" can close the portal via sacrificial blood. She doesn't know this though. She is basically mind wiped and magically bound at this point. Her blood has the unique and rare genetic markers needed to close the gate. Thus in case of an uncontrollable situation, she will be sacrificed on the altar and the whole deal is off.

3. The Rakshasa has been dealing with them since shortly after the abductions began. He is essentially my "mission giving" NPC. He is always in his true form. They know what he is, but not what he's ultimately all about. I've almost got them 100% trusting him. He's following the niece character and taking care of her (and by association, her companions) because he doesn't want to lose control of the doomsday machine underground. Ultimately, he knows that if she and her compatriots find the aunt and remove her from the matrix of the machine that it will break. That can't happen. So, he's following them, monitoring them, pushing them along a random path with his weird side missions. He is prepared to kill the niece and her friends if the adventure he's crafting and manipulating daily doesn't kill them first.

4. The final showdown is going to be the assault on the Illithids/Devils and their doomsday gate by the party, the Githzerai, and Dwarves. There will also be pockets of Drow attacking the Illithids. When the PCs get to the room/tower/whatever where the aunt is and try to free her, the Rakshasa is going to appear, summon a devil on them (which kills the aunt) and forcefully try to convince them to help him, promising wealth, longer life, etc. It doesn't work. They fight him, he all but kills the niece with some type of force blast or something. she hits the altar and as she's picking her self up, a drop of her blood hits the capstone and the opening gate makes a loud noise and hesistates. Hopefully at that point she will realize what's going on and shed some serious blood on the altar, closing the gate. Well, there are already a bunch of lesser devils inside the cavernous area. When the Rakshasa realizes that he's sunk and has just screwed his contract with hell by letting these characters break the plan, he casts a mass summon and brings demons into the fray, which see the devils......which.....well...... It's at this point that the Githzerai get them out. Dead or not.

I think the wizard should somehow be in league with the Githzerai and has directed them to attempt to bail the PCs out if push comes to shove, but not to befriend the PCs. It would make more sense, since I think the wizard and the Gith could be amicable/mutually benefited outsiders.