Giving the Sorcerer the ability to replace spells

[RealMarkP]

I'm considering a house rule for Sorcerers where by they could forget a spell and replace it with another. It would give them a bit of versatility but not as to replace the power of a wizard. What kind of mechanic would you implement that is fair and not overpowered? Have it allowed once per week? Once per level?

Basically swap spells in and out of the Sorcerer's spells known list.

[rockdeworld]

In fact, sorcerers already have this ability:

Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even-numbered sorcerer level after that (6th, 8th, and so on), a sorcerer can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows. In effect, the sorcerer "loses" the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spell’s level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged, and it must be at least two levels lower than the highest-level sorcerer spell the sorcerer can cast. A sorcerer may swap only a single spell at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that he gains new spells known for the level.
Personally, I think the RAW ability is rather weak, and wouldn't mind giving a first-time sorcerer the ability to replace all their spells at every level-up. They should be leveling up faster than 1/week anyway.

[Thespianus]

They should be leveling up faster than 1/week anyway.
Uhm? Really?

Sure it can happen, but time in a campaign can go a lot faster than that, making them level up once per year, or whatever.

EDIT: Sorry, this was off topic.

To the OP: I think it can be a good idea to have some kind of ritual for the Sorceror to undergo where he can swap out a certain number of spells, say 1/ level. But if this becomes too easy, the Sorceror gets overly powerful and is inching in on the Wizard's territory.

What the Ritual should be, in that case, I don't know.

[Bronk]

You could introduce 'knowstones' from Dragon 333. Each stone holds a specific spell, and holding one allows a spontaneous caster to use a spell slot to cast the spell (if it is a level they can cast, and is on their list).

[Sylvos330]

I always felt the RAW ability was too silly, I often forgot about it when I qualified. In my group we kind of do this anyway seeing as the sorcerer is so limited the DMs would often alow for spell swaps any time the character leveled and on rare ocasions we would allow swaps between levels if the spell was found to be completly useless.

[rockdeworld]

Uhm? Really?

Sure it can happen, but time in a campaign can go a lot faster than that, making them level up once per year, or whatever.
Yes, really. An adventuring group of 4 is designed to do 4 equal-CR encounters per day. It takes 13.3 such encounters to level up. In other words, the average PC levels up every 3-4 days of adventuring.

That's not to say that all campaigns follow that rule. It just means when you argue against it, you aren't going by RAW.

Edit: And yes, it is silly.

[Sgt. Cookie]

D&D 3.5 RAW, Zero to Hero in only 2 months!

[Doxkid]

Well, a major selling point is that the magic is innate to them; part of their body, mind and soul.

So the in game mechanic used for it should reflect that; something like needing a body part, or blood, from being to bond with (with the being selected based on the spell they want). Or items from a highly magical place on a plane.

Give any specific item like that a set list of spells associated with it (and the ability to ge back to your default spells easily) and bam. Done. Your Sorc now has a flavorful spell-book-analogous ability.

[Karoht]

Look up the spell Paragon Surge from Pathfinder.
For the feat it grants, select Extra Spell.
Keep a Wand of Paragon Surge around. 50-100 extra spells known, whenever you want them.

[Thespianus]

Yes, really. An adventuring group of 4 is designed to do 4 equal-CR encounters per day. It takes 13.3 such encounters to level up. In other words, the average PC levels up every 3-4 days of adventuring.

That's not to say that all campaigns follow that rule. It just means when you argue against it, you aren't going by RAW.

Edit: And yes, it is silly.

I don't think it is RAW, as the Wizard have to spend 24 hours writing a new spell into his spell book, for example. With that break neck pace, the Wizard would find himself at level 20 with almost no spells in his spell book, and you better hope he doesn't want to research a new spell (weeks and weeks of work)

Downtime is part of the game as well. The DMG even suggests letting the act of leveling up take "a week per two levels", of if this is too slow, at least one day per level of downtime.

But, never mind. It's not part of the topic.:smallsmile:

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

1. Ancestral Relic feat (BoED)
2. Make it a custom Runestaff (MIC p224)
3. When the party would sell junk loot for half value, buy it out of the party pool for that price. You get a portion of that back when the cash gets split. Sacrifice the full value of that junk loot into your relic. You're now upgrading it for less than half price.
4. You can even switch what spells it contains whenever you upgrade it, as the item's shape and its enchantment's end result not exceeding the level cap or your invested sum is all that matters.

[sdream]

Don't stop at sorcerers.

I don't think prepared casters should be the only ones to have options.

After every rest, let every character change a spell known, skill point, feat, or class feature for another they qualify for.

[icefractal]

Yes, really. An adventuring group of 4 is designed to do 4 equal-CR encounters per day. It takes 13.3 such encounters to level up. In other words, the average PC levels up every 3-4 days of adventuring.

That's not to say that all campaigns follow that rule. It just means when you argue against it, you aren't going by RAW.

Edit: And yes, it is silly.Yep, per 3-4 days of adventuring. But there's no reason all your adventuring would be in a continuous block, unless the entire campaign takes place in a dungeon.

For example, if you spend a week researching the location of a tomb, a week traveling there, fight the stuff inside it (one day, four battles), and then a week returning, you're averaging 1 battle / 5 days, without contradicting RAW in the slightest.

As for the OP, I go a bit farther than that - I allowing changing any feats, known spells, selectable abilities, or whatever on level-up, or when it's a natural point to do so. The only requirement being that if it makes a significant change that's visible in-game, you should think of an explanation for it. Hasn't caused any problems yet.

[ericgrau]

I'm wary about careless balance fixes in general. But I think this is a good idea for a new sorcerer player or to forgive a colossal mistake even on someone with more experience. That keeps the player from playing several sessions while stuck with their mistakes. 1 spell per level allowing any spell at least 1 spell level below max is reasonable for a new player. It gives him just enough time to try out a new spell before changing his mind. For a more experienced player swapping should be permitted only on a case by case basis, and the DM should initiate it to limit embarrassment: "So that spell obviously hasn't been working out for the last couple levels, would you like to swap it out?"

The fluff concept here is that the character would spend more time planning than the player. While he might make small mistakes and doesn't know everything, he would not make huge mistakes. So you retcon it as if it never happened.

[gomipile]

There's always psychic reformation.

[Malimar]

No mention of the retraining rules from PHB2 (pp.192-195) yet? Any spellcaster can use their once per level retraining option to forget a spell and learn a new one of the same level.

[ahenobarbi]

I'm considering a house rule for Sorcerers where by they could forget a spell and replace it with another. It would give them a bit of versatility but not as to replace the power of a wizard. What kind of mechanic would you implement that is fair and not overpowered? Have it allowed once per week? Once per level?

Basically swap spells in and out of the Sorcerer's spells known list.

As pointed out sorcerers can swap spells. Only it's so slow. If they could swap 1 spell every time they level it would greatly help them (they could pick some spells that are great for level or two without worrying too much).


Don't stop at sorcerers.

I don't think prepared casters should be the only ones to have options.

After every rest, let every character change a spell known, skill point, feat, or class feature for another they qualify for.

You are kidding :smallconfused:

[Slipperychicken]

Let him pay for a Psychic Reformation in town. The costs (just port the Spellcasting cost formula) are big enough that he won't be doing it every day, or really enough to be abusive at all. If you get sick of it, say the Psion ran out of xp so he can't do it again for a while.

[sdream]

Originally Posted by sdream
Don't stop at sorcerers.

I don't think prepared casters should be the only ones to have options.

After every rest, let every character change a spell known, skill point, feat, or class feature for another they qualify for.


You are kidding :smallconfused:

Not at all... can you explain to me why skilled people can't refocus their efforts and learn new skills, and let their old ones fall by the wayside?

Once per rest is a bit fast , maybe, but changing one single feat or feature is much less abrupt than the massive changes wrought by gaining a level, which usually happen overnight also.

PLAYERS change their minds about what they want to be able to do... why should not also CHARACTERS... even mundane ones?

[nedz]

I think Wizards should be able to change their spells everyday.
After eight hours sleep, and an hour or so sitting around drinking coffee, obviously.
I mean if Fighters can change their Feats in the morning, and Rogues their skill point allocations every day, it's only fair.

Seriously: I think sdream has a point.

Personally I prefer the alternate trick of removing Vancian casting, but YMMV.