Demiplanes

[Voidling]

Hi, in my current campaign my character has prestiged into the Planeshifter class. It's cap stone (if that's the correct term) ability at level 10 which is my characters 20uf* level is to create a demiplane. So I did a little looking around on the internet about ideas and info. It seems many roads on the internet lead to the play ground but instead of cool demiplane ideas people are stating that the spell is over powered. So I re-read the entry for Demiplane seed and the three spells and psionic ability (all called Genesis) that crate demiplanes, which are found in:

D&D 3.0 Defenders of the Faith Page 86
D&D 3.5 Deities And Demigods Page 216
D&D 3.5 Epic Level Handbook Page 117
D&D 3.5 Expanded Psionics Handbook Page 109
D&D 3.0 Manual of the Planes Page 31

Genesis
Metacreativity (Creation)
Level: Shaper 9
Display: Material
Manifesting Time: One week (8 hours/day)
Range: 180 ft.; see text
Effect: A demiplane coterminous with the Astral Plane, centred on your location
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Power Resistance: No
Power Points: 17, XP


You create a finite plane with limited access: a demiplane. Demiplanes created by this power are very small, very minor planes. This power works best when manifested while you are on the Astral Plane (various powers allow access to these planes, including astral caravan and plane shift). Manifestation of this power creates a local density fluctuation that precipitates the creation of a demiplane. At first, the fledgling plane grows in radius at a rate of 1 foot per day to an initial maximum radius of 180 feet as it rapidly draws substance from the surrounding astral ectoplasm. Once the new demiplane reaches its maximum size, it doesn’t really stop growing, but its growth rate decreases to only 1 foot per week (approximately a 50-foot increase in radius per year). Once your demiplane is created, you can travel to it using astral caravan, plane shift, or some other power or permanent link that you arrange for separately. You determine the environment within the demiplane when you manifest genesis, reflecting most any desire you can visualize. You determine factors such as atmosphere, water, temperature, and the general shape of the terrain. This power cannot create life (including vegetation), nor can it create construction (such as buildings, roads, wells, dungeons, and so forth). You must add these details in some other fashion if you desire. You can’t create lingering psionic effects with this power; you have to add those separately, if desired. Similarly, you can’t create a demiplane out of esoteric material, such as silver or uranium; you’re limited to stone and dirt. You can’t manipulate the time trait on your demiplane; its time trait is as the Material Plane. Once your demiplane reaches 180 feet in radius, you can manifest this power again to gradually add another 180 feet of radius to it, and so on.

Antigenesis: If genesis is manifested on the Material Plane, the power takes effect and the demiplane begins to grow at the rate noted above, but it gets no larger than a radius of 1 foot per level. The energies of the new plane are exactly cancelled by the energies of the original plane, creating a dead spot like a limited cancer on the original plane. The expanding boundary of the dead spot wipes away all construction, crumbles natural land forms, and evaporates water, leaving behind a uniformly level area of inert dust. Living creatures that pass the boundary of the growing dead spot are not directly, but plants can find no sustenance in the dust of the dead spot, water-breathing creatures die quickly when water turns to dust, and mobile animals know enough to leave the area alone. Once the wave of change passes, no special essence remains in the dead spot, and it may be colonized naturally over the course of several years by bacteria, plants, and animals.
XP Cost: 1,000 XP.


The prestige class (planeshifter) from Manual of the Planes details best what traits can be picked and detailed descriptions of the options for the traits. While the Genesis spell does not detail which traits you pick as such, the Psionics version is a little better and does spell out some common sense things like “you can’t create a demiplane out of esoteric material, such as silver or uranium; you’re limited to stone and dirt”.

But none of them say you can change the time traits, the planeshifter class can pick the Energy and Elemental Traits which and add passive healing or turn it into a death trap (highly positive/negative or have the fire energy Elemental Trait) or could just leave the demiplane a lifeless dark hole you planeshift monsters too. It also has a radius of 180 feet when it finishes forming so even if it was solid rock would not be work the exp even if it had gold vain in it as the spell costs 5000 xp to cast and if 1 exp = 5 gold that's 25,000 in gold to create. So you can't really make any money from creating a demiplane directly.

So I keep reading how it's broken and you can do very cheesing things with the spell on different forums and such to do with the time traits or make the demiplane from gold, but were did people get the idea from was it simply people not reading the spell text or manual of the Planes correctly. Or just the internets general way of warping stuff as people read what other people said and don't bother reading books the other people are citing?

After reading the Epic Level Handbook it seems to me that the designers intended demiplanes to be used as stated “Characters of epic power might very well want a demiplane of their own. Let them have one. In fact, allow them to design and create a demiplane from the ground up. In essence, a demiplane is any bounded space that is separate from the characters’ plane of origin. Allow the PCs to discover the genesis spell (see below) or an item that duplicates the effects of genesis. Let them have fun with their new off-planar abode. Allow them to move their base of operations there, if they desire, or create an outpost filled with their followers, for example.”.

Any way, with all that out the way I'm looking for interesting or crazy demiplane ideas and stuff to use them for. Also portals, planeshifter get one for their plane but the ones created from the spell don't. Besides the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting – page 60 is their any other info on creating gates ?

*20uf numeric notation found in the dictionary of the void

[Clistenes]

You know, none of the demiplane creation spells I have seen allows you to create anything bigger than a manse with its garden unless you cast them many times. I wonder how did ancient wizards and demigods create the crazy country-sized (or even bigger) demiplanes like the Isle of the Ape or the Coil (from the Ghostwalk campaign), the Demiplane of Banishment, The Isle of Black Trees, The Boundless, Demiplane of City, Court of Rings, The Crypts of Iron Souls...etc.

I mean, no self-respecting hero-god would spend his eternal life dwelling in a manse-sized demiplane, but that's exactly what the hundred promoted adventurers from the Greywawk Setting are supposed to be doing (instead of ruling the Prime Material Plane).

[Alleran]

You know, none of the demiplane creation spells I have seen allows you to create anything bigger than a manse with its garden unless you caste them many of times. I wonder how did ancient wizards and demigods create the crazy country-sized (or even bigger) demiplanes like the Isle of the Ape or the Coil (from the Ghostwalk campaign), the Demiplane of Banishment, The Isle of Black Trees, The Boundless, Demiplane of City, Court of Rings, The Crypts of Iron Souls...etc.
They probably set up a spell clock to fire the spell off every hour on the hour until it was large enough to satisfy them.

As far as Genesis cheese goes, the most accurate and up-to-date version of the spell is on the d20SRD:

"The spellcaster determines the environment within the demiplane when he or she first casts genesis, reflecting most any desire the spellcaster can visualize. The spellcaster determines factors such as atmosphere, water, temperature, and the general shape of the terrain. This spell cannot create life (including vegetation), nor can it create construction (such as buildings, roads, wells, dungeons, and so forth). The spellcaster must add these things in some other fashion if he or she desires."

It clearly states any desire you can visualise. It then goes on to say what you can't create (life, construction). It also states you determine various other things about the demiplane. With the exception that you can't create an infinite plane (because the spell description clearly states that it is a finite plane), you should be able to manipulate time traits, gravity traits, magic traits and so on to your heart's content, as long as you can visualise them (which, yes, is very poor wording, but such is 3.5e).

Also note that it's only the wizard variant of Genesis that does this.

[Voidling]

Well thanks for clearing that up for me, personal I see that as a people problem with some badly word design and not how the designer intended it to be. Thankfully the demiplane my class can creates is far more balanced. Unlike the the Genesis spell Planeshifters demiplanes grow as long as they are alive so no spell clocks for me. Where does the 5000 exp come from with spell clocks?

I need ways to keep my character alive (hes human) as long as possible, my character does not necessary be active as such. So I'm open to ideas that might be a sort of stasis.

Thanks

[Kelb_Panthera]

Get a thought bottle and make friends with the elan council.

Being turned into an elan resets you to level one, but makes you immortal in the temporal sense, then you activate the thought bottle and you get all your levels back. You now have all the time in the world and one less feat.

The elan race is detailed in XPH, and the thought bottle is in CAr.

[Voidling]

Get a thought bottle and make friends with the elan council.

Being turned into an elan resets you to level one, but makes you immortal in the temporal sense, then you activate the thought bottle and you get all your levels back. You now have all the time in the world and one less feat.

The Elan race is detailed in XPH, and the thought bottle is in CAr.

thanks for your reply Kelb Panthera, Elans are not in the campaign (thbomk) and the exp part of thought bottle makes my DM want to eat cheese (melted in a cheese toasty).

why do you need a feat tho ?

[Xervous]

He's assuming you were smart and chose to play a human. Changing races will lose you that bonus feat.

[Cruiser1]

"The spellcaster determines the environment within the demiplane when he or she first casts genesis, reflecting most any desire the spellcaster can visualize.

It clearly states any desire you can visualise. With the exception that you can't create an infinite plane (because the spell description clearly states that it is a finite plane), you should be able to manipulate time traits, gravity traits, magic traits and so on to your heart's content, as long as you can visualise them (which, yes, is very poor wording, but such is 3.5e).
In the latest version of the Genesis (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/genesis.htm) spell, the clause about "any desire you can visualize" only applies to setting the physical environment (e.g. landscape, temperature, and such). It does not say anything about letting you set planar traits, such as time, impeded or enhanced magic, and alignment. Planar traits are a special concept specifically defined in MotP page 7-14. Since "trait" isn't mentioned anywhere in the spell, Genesis doesn't allow you to set them.

[ahenobarbi]

Age. When you become old arrange a druid, commit suicide, get reincarnated (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/reincarnate.htm) into new, nice young adult body. Repeat every few decades.

[Voidling]

In the latest version of the Genesis (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/genesis.htm) spell, the clause about "any desire you can visualize" only applies to setting the physical environment (e.g. landscape, temperature, and such). It does not say anything about letting you set planar traits, such as time, impeded or enhanced magic, and alignment. Planar traits are a special concept specifically defined in MotP page 7-14. Since "trait" isn't mentioned anywhere in the spell, Genesis doesn't allow you to set them.


I quite agree, the planeshifter class feature states what planar traits your allowed and what you are not, where as the spell does not give you any trait options. The whole "any desire you can visualize" is just bad wording and people wanting to break the game.

[Arcanist]

I quite agree, the planeshifter class feature states what planar traits your allowed and what you are not, where as the spell does not give you any trait options. The whole "any desire you can visualize" is just bad wording and people wanting to break the game.

It just goes to show that people are completely willing to bend the rules over backwards just to get the desired effect. Ah well...

[Kelb_Panthera]

thanks for your reply Kelb Panthera, Elans are not in the campaign (thbomk) and the exp part of thought bottle makes my DM want to eat cheese (melted in a cheese toasty).

why do you need a feat tho ?


He's assuming you were smart and chose to play a human. Changing races will lose you that bonus feat.

^this is mostly right. Absent mention of any other race I do assume human but just as a default, not because it's necessarily always smarter. Fire elf, grey elf, and lesser tiefling are all pretty strong choices for a wizard because of their racial intelligence bonuses and lack of LA. Wizard seems a safe assumption given that you're talking about planeshifter.

Your DM is probably right about the thought bottle though. The only non-cheese use for it is as insurance against having levels drained by the enemy. Using it to off-set the drawbacks of any kind of character choice reeks like limburgher that's been sitting in the sun for a while.

[Voidling]

Age. When you become old arrange a druid, commit suicide, get reincarnated (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/reincarnate.htm) into new, nice young adult body. Repeat every few decades.

thanks that gives me a second option, by DM also already considers that idea cheesy (on toast with peri peri sauce). Players that commit suicide can't be raised in our campaign as they chose to die ect.

Dragonborn from Races of the Dragon would add many years to my characters life and their in our campaign but he does not follow Bahamut. I consider Lich template not to fit my characters mentality and I want my demiplane to have the minor positive energy trait.

Is their a positive energy Lich like template ?

[Voidling]

after looking around I found Deathless template from

Eberron Campaign Setting page 275 and BoED page 157

but after re-reading Demiplane Seed (see spoiler) I think becoming Deathless counts as the creator perishing, so I need anther Idea.

Upon completion of the work, the seed opens into a minuscule spherical demiplane, 1 foot in radius. It grows quickly, gaining 1 foot in radius per day up to a maximum radius of 10 feet × the planeshifter’s highest caster level. After reaching that size, the demiplane continues to grow slowly, gaining 2 feet of radius per year. If its creator perishes, the demiplane stops growing.

I was thinking how I should implement the shape trait to be Self-contained instead of finite. One idea I had was if the demiplane was like a tropical island (with single comedy palm tree) with water in all directions. If you were to get into a boat and row away from it, it would get smaller and smaller. Just as it disappears from view a small dot on the horizon would appear in the exact opposite direction and if you where to row towards it you would get back to the tropical island.

Anther idea I had was give the demiplane the no gravity trait like the plane of air and instead of a tropical island have huge stone cubes all stock together floating in the middle with some small cubes orbiting the main mass. As the demiplane grows the cubes would grow and when they get to a certain size they would smaller cubes would orbit them.

I could then build mage school that is really higglety pigglety with building pointing at random angles from the each other all over the cubes.

I'm still look for more ideas for demiplanes so all suggestions welcome:smallsmile:

[Zale]

This is beautiful.

I finally have a thread to link to when people start talking about wizards making fast-time trait demi-planes.

[Voidling]

This is beautiful.

I finally have a thread to link to when people start talking about wizards making fast-time trait demi-planes.

Thank you :smallcool:

The rules for demiplanes can be found in the Manual of the Planes but their mostly for DMs of course. Planeshifter ability gets more options that the Genesis spell.

I have been searching around for a way to create gates for Demiplanes so other people can access them. A Planeshifters Demiplane Seed when it finishes growing (after 170 days) has a single portal entry after search around I found Portal Master [Item Creation] in:

Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting – page 60
Players-Guide-to-Faerun - page 35

They cost 50k to start with, 25k with the feat. That would give me two and I could permanently link two planes via my Demiplane that way. Now I need a none cheesy way to make money out of my Demiplane :smallconfused:.

Portal Master [Item Creation]
You are especially proficient at creating portals—permanent
magic devices that instantaneously transport those who know their secrets from one locale to another.
Prerequisite: Craft Wondrous Item.
Benefit: When you build a portal, you pay only 50% of the normal cost to create the device. This benefit does not stack with that provided by the Magical Artisan feat. In addition, you know how to pass through dangerous portals safely. As a standard action, you can attempt to stabilize a malfunctioning portal temporarily. Make a Spellcraft check and add the check result to the d% roll for the effect of the malfunctioning portal (see Table 2–2 in Chapter 2 of the FORGOTTEN REALMS Campaign Setting). The portal remains stable for 1 minute, and you can retry the stabilization as often as you like.

[Rubik]

You now have all the time in the world and one less feat.Or possibly one more, if you were, say, a fire elf with the Human Heritage feat.

[Dark Kerman]

Does anyone know if it is rules legal to make a resetting magic trap of Genesis? Admittedly, you could make one (at 17th level for roughly 11000 XP and 2580000gp by my calculation. Now, that's epic level expensive, but you could theoretically do it I think, and you could make a plain of technically unlimited size. (I've only looked at this one briefly though, so I'm sure I've overlooked some things)

[Voidling]

Does anyone know if it is rules legal to make a resetting magic trap of Genesis? Admittedly, you could make one (at 17th level for roughly 11000 XP and 2580000gp by my calculation. Now, that's epic level expensive, but you could theoretically do it I think, and you could make a plain of technically unlimited size. (I've only looked at this one briefly though, so I'm sure I've overlooked some things)

I'm not that familiar with magic traps, but don't the traps only have.. well err spells that are nasty, you know like mundane traps ?

[Rubik]

I'm not that familiar with magic traps, but don't the traps only have.. well err spells that are nasty, you know like mundane traps ?You can put any spell on a trap. ANY spell. Including Heal spells and Wishes.

[Arcanist]

You can put any spell on a trap. ANY spell. Including Heal spells and Wishes.

Now that I think about it, how would a Spell Trap of Any Spell work? :smallconfused:

[Rubik]

Now that I think about it, how would a Spell Trap of Any Spell work? :smallconfused:It would target a caster and allow him to prepare an arcane spell of the appropriate level in one spell slot regardless of the type of caster he is.

[Arcanist]

It would target a caster and allow him to prepare an arcane spell of the appropriate level in one spell slot regardless of the type of caster he is.

Now the way you wrote that makes me wonder exactly what would happen if a straight fighter triggered that trap. Would he get to prepare an Arcane spell of the appropriate level even if he has no Spell slots?

[Rubik]

Now the way you wrote that makes me wonder exactly what would happen if a straight fighter triggered that trap. Would he get to prepare an Arcane spell of the appropriate level even if he has no Spell slots?OUT OF MEMORY ERROR

...resulting in a blue screen of death.

It was a monster in the Monster Manual VII, but alas, they never released it.

But seriously, the spell would have no effect, since the target can't gain the benefits of the spell. It's like trying to cast Expeditious Retreat on an udoroot. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/udoroot.htm)

[Arcanist]

OUT OF MEMORY ERROR

...resulting in a blue screen of death.

It was a monster in the Monster Manual VII, but alas, they never released it.

But seriously, the spell would have no effect, since the target can't gain the benefits of the spell. It's like trying to cast Expeditious Retreat on an udoroot. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/udoroot.htm)

So, first I'd have to cast Cat's Grace on it and THAN Expeditious Retreat :smallamused: however I fear the great wrath of the Blue Screen of Death coming upon me and slaughtering my hopes and dreams...

[Voidling]

Well thats seems to answer Clistenes question about huge Demiplanes. But if a spell requires expensive regents or exp does it still work with spell traps? if their not needed it seems a easy way to break the game IMHO.

[Kelb_Panthera]

A) Automatically resetting magical traps already break the game, even without spells with expensive or XP components.

B) I -think- you have to shell out 50X the listed gp or XP cost of the spell, like you would if you were making a magic item.

[mattie_p]

Elements Of A Trap
All traps—mechanical or magic—have the following elements: trigger, reset, Search DC, Disable Device DC, attack bonus (or saving throw or onset delay), damage/effect, and Challenge Rating. (emphasis mine)

That's why you summon a Solar who wishes on your behalf for a spellclock (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cw/20070312a) of genesis. Or Ice Assasin a solar. That works too. (Don't do this in a real game please. This is a TO exercise.)

[Kelb_Panthera]

(emphasis mine)

That's why you summon a Solar who wishes on your behalf for a spellclock (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cw/20070312a) of genesis. Or Ice Assasin a solar. That works too. (Don't do this in a real game please. This is a TO exercise.)

Two problems with this particular argument:

1) zero is a number, and there's nothing that says a trap can't be CR 0.

2) Beneficial traps are an official thing. See dungeonscape for details.

[mattie_p]

In the DMG on page 49, it asks the question, "So, what counts as a 'challenge'?" which sums up some discussion beforehand on encounter levels and CR. My stance is that for something to have a challenge rating, it must be a challenge, using English definitions for the words.

And I am aware of boon traps. There are even rules on how PCs can commandeer them, but there is also a sentence that "These boon traps have little use in most dungeons unless they are paired with a guardian monster." (Also need read magic trigger, but that is a very minor point).

Custom traps are one of the rules grey-areas, as they all require DM adjudication, like a custom magic item, and thus aren't useful for optimization discussions as mileage varies too much.

[4th number]

You know, none of the demiplane creation spells I have seen allows you to create anything bigger than a manse with its garden unless you cast them many times. I wonder how did ancient wizards and demigods create the crazy country-sized (or even bigger) demiplanes like the Isle of the Ape or the Coil (from the Ghostwalk campaign), the Demiplane of Banishment, The Isle of Black Trees, The Boundless, Demiplane of City, Court of Rings, The Crypts of Iron Souls...etc.

I mean, no self-respecting hero-god would spend his eternal life dwelling in a manse-sized demiplane, but that's exactly what the hundred promoted adventurers from the Greywawk Setting are supposed to be doing (instead of ruling the Prime Material Plane).

If I wanted a big ol' demiplane of my own, I'd pay a bunch of wizards to do the expanding for me. 180 extra feet of radius per casting is no joke, either: the more times you do it, the more added area per casting you get.

[Kelb_Panthera]

In the DMG on page 49, it asks the question, "So, what counts as a 'challenge'?" which sums up some discussion beforehand on encounter levels and CR. My stance is that for something to have a challenge rating, it must be a challenge, using English definitions for the words.

And I am aware of boon traps. There are even rules on how PCs can commandeer them, but there is also a sentence that "These boon traps have little use in most dungeons unless they are paired with a guardian monster." (Also need read magic trigger, but that is a very minor point).

Custom traps are one of the rules grey-areas, as they all require DM adjudication, like a custom magic item, and thus aren't useful for optimization discussions as mileage varies too much.

I don't actually disagree with you, but saying such things aren't worth discussing is rather pointless. Beneficial traps are cannon, and thus legal. They also get more than a little discussion on the boards.

Any DM would be a fool to allow players to create custom magical traps without adding some sort of limiting houserule on them, but you can't just say "Nope, you can't do that because RAW" when RAW doesn't actually say you can't do that because you're a PC.

Don't misunderstand me, I'm definitely not saying that "the rules don't say I can't" is a valid argument in general, but when the rules say you -can- do something with no caveats or restrictions, you can do that thing.

If anyone's curious, my housrule for magical traps is that they must be stationary relative to the ground beneath them with a small margin of error for traps on doors or minor earth tremors.

[Croix]

I need ways to keep my character alive (hes human) as long as possible, my character does not necessary be active as such. So I'm open to ideas that might be a sort of stasis.

Even though this question is old in and of itself, I feel the need to add in my favorite ways of achieving this without becoming undead. Since you now have a Demi-Plane or can create one via Genesis, you have an option of trying a DC30 Bardic Lore/Religion check to know about the Gray Portrait from Champions of Ruin. Then, once you know about it go on an adventure for it (and seeing as how it's a Major Artifact, a long one). As long as you protect it from being destroyed you are immune to, but affected by, the effects of aging, negative levels, and ability drain. Drawback being if it is destroyed all the age progression, negative levels, and ability drain it has been keeping you safe from all comes and hits you in one punch with no saves or negations to it.

If you have a nice DM and a spell slot coming for a Level 8 spell, and 6400gp (and possibly a feat slot) you can learn Kissed by the Ages (Dragon Magazine) as your free spell (as finding it will probably be a pain in a half). Then go to the nearest Metropolis to find two Level 15 Wizards and allow them to memorize the spell from your spell and cast it upon you for 1200gp ea (or 2400gp together) on a 4000gp Item that takes an item slot. Congrats, you are now for all intents and purpose unable to die from age unless a god literally intervenes to destroy it, though suffer from side side effects if you lose the item. To reduce the chances of that, take the Item Familiar feat and make it your Item Familiar... Empathic Link anyone?

Another one is if your DM allows you to retrain, Wedded to History is an amazing 1st Level feat from Dragon Magazine that gives you perpetual immortality, and you don't have to keep an item secure. And it has several versions to fit any niche you might be wanting to fill.

[Croix]

If anyone's curious, my housrule for magical traps is that they must be stationary relative to the ground beneath them with a small margin of error for traps on doors or minor earth tremors.

As a wizard who would like to magically trap his spellbook from theft... >.> I'd hate you.

[Voidling]

Even though this question is old in and of itself, I feel the need to add in my favorite ways of achieving this without becoming undead. Since you now have a Demi-Plane or can create one via Genesis, you have an option of trying a DC30 Bardic Lore/Religion check to know about the Gray Portrait from Champions of Ruin. Then, once you know about it go on an adventure for it (and seeing as how it's a Major Artifact, a long one). As long as you protect it from being destroyed you are immune to, but affected by, the effects of aging, negative levels, and ability drain. Drawback being if it is destroyed all the age progression, negative levels, and ability drain it has been keeping you safe from all comes and hits you in one punch with no saves or negations to it.

If you have a nice DM and a spell slot coming for a Level 8 spell, and 6400gp (and possibly a feat slot) you can learn Kissed by the Ages (Dragon Magazine) as your free spell (as finding it will probably be a pain in a half). Then go to the nearest Metropolis to find two Level 15 Wizards and allow them to memorize the spell from your spell and cast it upon you for 1200gp ea (or 2400gp together) on a 4000gp Item that takes an item slot. Congrats, you are now for all intents and purpose unable to die from age unless a god literally intervenes to destroy it, though suffer from side side effects if you lose the item. To reduce the chances of that, take the Item Familiar feat and make it your Item Familiar... Empathic Link anyone?

Another one is if your DM allows you to retrain, Wedded to History is an amazing 1st Level feat from Dragon Magazine that gives you perpetual immortality, and you don't have to keep an item secure. And it has several versions to fit any niche you might be wanting to fill.



Thanks Croix that what I was looking for as it's my characters retirement (near the end of the campaign) I think the our DM would allow that sort of think as my last quest(s).

Whats spells would make be a live but not age, the flesh to stone spell would make me ageless but would by RAW but would I count as being alive ?

[Rubik]

Thanks Croix that what I was looking for as it's my characters retirement (near the end of the campaign) I think the our DM would allow that sort of think as my last quest(s).

Whats spells would make be a live but not age, the flesh to stone spell would make me ageless but would by RAW but would I count as being alive ?As with all other things you might want to do, Polymorph Any Object will do what you want. Just turn into an outsider, construct, undead, or elemental. The vast majority do not have age categories, and are immortal.

[Voidling]

As with all other things you might want to do, Polymorph Any Object will do what you want. Just turn into an outsider, construct, undead, or elemental. The vast majority do not have age categories, and are immortal.

Thanks thats a very simple solution

Polymorph Any Object
Transmutation
Level: Sor/Wiz 8, Trickery 8
Components: V, S, M/DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One creature, or one nonmagical
object of up to 100 cu. ft./level
Duration: See text
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates (object);
see text
Spell Resistance: Yes (object)
This spell functions like polymorph, except that it changes one object or creature into another. The duration of the spell depends on how radical a change is made from the original state to its enchanted state. The DM determines the duration by using the following guidelines. Increase to

Changed Subject Is: Duration Factor
Same kingdom (animal, +5
vegetable, mineral)
Same class (mammals, +2
fungi, metals, etc.)
Same size +2
Related (twig is to tree, +2
wolf fur is to wolf, etc.)
Same or lower Intelligence +2
Add all that apply. Look up the total on the
next table.

Duration
Factor Duration Example
0 20 minutes Pebble to human
2 1 hour Marionette to human
4 3 hours Human to marionette
5 12 hours Lizard to manticore
6 2 days Sheep to wool coat
7 1 week Shrew to manticore
9+ Permanent Manticore to shrew

Unlike polymorph, polymorph any object does grant the creature the Intelligence score of its new form. If the original form didn’t have a Wisdom or Charisma score, it gains those scores as appropriate for the new form. Damage taken by the new form can result in the injury or death of the polymorphed creature. For example, it is possible to polymorph a creature into rock and then grind it to dust, causing damage, perhaps even death. If the creature was changed to dust to start with, more creative methods to damage it would be needed. Perhaps you could use a gust of wind spell to scatter the dust far and wide. In general, damage occurs when the new form is changed through physical force, although the DM must adjudicate many of these situations. A nonmagical object cannot be made into a magic item with this spell. Magic items aren’t affected by this spell. This spell cannot create material of great intrinsic value, such as copper, silver, gems, silk, gold, platinum, mithral, or adamantine. It also cannot reproduce the special properties of cold iron in order to overcome the damage reduction of certain creatures.

This spell can be used to duplicate baleful polymorph, polymorph, ,flesh to stone , stone to flesh, transmute mud to rock, transmute metal to wood , or transmute rock to mud . Arcane Material Component: Mercury, gum arabic, and smoke.

but after read the spell it would give me 1 to 3 hours as an outsider

[Rubik]

Thanks thats a very simple solution

Polymorph Any Object
Transmutation
Level: Sor/Wiz 8, Trickery 8
Components: V, S, M/DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One creature, or one nonmagical
object of up to 100 cu. ft./level
Duration: See text
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates (object);
see text
Spell Resistance: Yes (object)
This spell functions like polymorph, except that it changes one object or creature into another. The duration of the spell depends on how radical a change is made from the original state to its enchanted state. The DM determines the duration by using the following guidelines. Increase to

Changed Subject Is: Duration Factor
Same kingdom (animal, +5
vegetable, mineral)
Same class (mammals, +2
fungi, metals, etc.)
Same size +2
Related (twig is to tree, +2
wolf fur is to wolf, etc.)
Same or lower Intelligence +2
Add all that apply. Look up the total on the
next table.

Duration
Factor Duration Example
0 20 minutes Pebble to human
2 1 hour Marionette to human
4 3 hours Human to marionette
5 12 hours Lizard to manticore
6 2 days Sheep to wool coat
7 1 week Shrew to manticore
9+ Permanent Manticore to shrew

Unlike polymorph, polymorph any object does grant the creature the Intelligence score of its new form. If the original form didn’t have a Wisdom or Charisma score, it gains those scores as appropriate for the new form. Damage taken by the new form can result in the injury or death of the polymorphed creature. For example, it is possible to polymorph a creature into rock and then grind it to dust, causing damage, perhaps even death. If the creature was changed to dust to start with, more creative methods to damage it would be needed. Perhaps you could use a gust of wind spell to scatter the dust far and wide. In general, damage occurs when the new form is changed through physical force, although the DM must adjudicate many of these situations. A nonmagical object cannot be made into a magic item with this spell. Magic items aren’t affected by this spell. This spell cannot create material of great intrinsic value, such as copper, silver, gems, silk, gold, platinum, mithral, or adamantine. It also cannot reproduce the special properties of cold iron in order to overcome the damage reduction of certain creatures.

This spell can be used to duplicate baleful polymorph, polymorph, ,flesh to stone , stone to flesh, transmute mud to rock, transmute metal to wood , or transmute rock to mud . Arcane Material Component: Mercury, gum arabic, and smoke.

but after read the spell it would give me 1 to 3 hours as an outsiderCast it twice. Since you now match what you're turning into, the duration is Permanent.

[Clistenes]

A) Automatically resetting magical traps already break the game, even without spells with expensive or XP components.

B) I -think- you have to shell out 50X the listed gp or XP cost of the spell, like you would if you were making a magic item.

A question about that:

A command word ring that cast unlimited times a 9th level spell has a base price of 9x17x1800 = 275400, that is, to create if you would spend 137700 gp + 11016 xp

But a Wish or Genesis or Incarnate Construct spell has an xp cost of 5000 xp, so you would have to add 50x5000 = 250000 xp

The total cost to create a Ring of Unlimited Wishes/Genesis would be 137700 gp + 261016 xp

To obtain a ring that grants 1 wish/day, you would have to divide that by 5, that is, 27540 gp + 52204 xp

To obtain a ring that grants 3 wishes/month you divide that by 10, that is:
2754 gp + 5221 xp....CHEAP!!!

Is there something wrong with my maths?

[Stegyre]

To obtain a ring that grants 3 wishes/month you divide that by 10, that is:
2754 gp + 5221 xp....CHEAP!!!

Is there something wrong with my maths?
Yes. One of the most basic rules guidelines of item creation: "Use good sense when assigning prices, using the items in this book as examples." (DMG at 282.)

A ring of three wishes, which grants only three wishes ever has a creation cost of 11,475 gp and 15,918 xp. This sets a baseline, so a ring doing this once a month should cost something more, not substantially less.

[Clistenes]

Yes. One of the most basic rules guidelines of item creation: "Use good sense when assigning prices, using the items in this book as examples." (DMG at 282.)

A ring of three wishes, which grants only three wishes ever has a creation cost of 11,475 gp and 15,918 xp. This sets a baseline, so a ring doing this once a month should cost something more, not substantially less.

I'm aware of that quote, and of the price of the Ring of Three Wishes.

I just want to know if I have made some mistake when doing my numbers, or the absurdly low price is just a consequence of the inherent absurdity of the rules.

[Croix]

Thanks Croix that what I was looking for as it's my characters retirement (near the end of the campaign) I think the our DM would allow that sort of think as my last quest(s).

Whats spells would make be a live but not age, the flesh to stone spell would make me ageless but would by RAW but would I count as being alive ?

Kissed by the Ages, which I covered second in my post.

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1179.0

This thread goes over all possible ways that aren't easily negated by a simple dispel magic usage.

[Clistenes]

Yes. One of the most basic rules guidelines of item creation: "Use good sense when assigning prices, using the items in this book as examples." (DMG at 282.)

A ring of three wishes, which grants only three wishes ever has a creation cost of 11,475 gp and 15,918 xp. This sets a baseline, so a ring doing this once a month should cost something more, not substantially less.


I'm aware of that quote, and of the price of the Ring of Three Wishes.

I just want to know if I have made some mistake when doing my numbers, or the absurdly low price is just a consequence of the inherent absurdity of the rules.

Let's see it from another point of view: 50 charges = 1/2 the price of an unlimited item, so 100 charges = the price of an unlimited item.

An unlimited item should have a price equal to 33'33 times the price of an item with three charges.

So a Ring of Unlimited Wishes should cost about 765039, which seems a lot until you realize you would recover the money after asking for just 31 wishes...

I think the rule that says "if you want to replicate a spell that requires the expediture of gold and xp you spend 50 times the gold and XP of a single spell" doesn´t work. You should just have to add enough XP and gold to pay for every single spell...

[Voidling]

Cast it twice. Since you now match what you're turning into, the duration is Permanent.

It's not that I don't appreciate you trying to help Rubik, but I'm quite sure that if you could do that it would not bother with all the rules list in the spell info. It might be RAW and all but with my gaming group it's just considered raw cheese (or is raw cheese milk ?). Like making Demiplanes made out of gems or with none standard time traits, is not how our gaming group wants to play as the game designer did not intended it to work that way.

[Stegyre]

I'm aware of that quote, and of the price of the Ring of Three Wishes.

I just want to know if I have made some mistake when doing my numbers, or the absurdly low price is just a consequence of the inherent absurdity of the rules.
Maybe it's just me, but I see no guideline authorization for your extra 90% reduction for making it 3/month instead of 1/day.

The table allows an 80% reduction for 1/day. Going beyond that gets cheesy fast: you can trivialize the cost of anything by making it usable only once every thousand years. (The characters don't care: they are essentially making single-use items for less than the single-use cost.)

The practical lower limit for any reusable item is the cost of a single-use, use-activated item: SL*CL*25+XP. For Wish or Genesis, that is 9*17*25 = 3,825 gp + 5,000 XP (I'm just ignoring the standard creation XP). Any formula that gets your price lower than this for the same item should be a cheese alert. If you are using a formula to get an item that is necessarily better -- i.e., 3 wishes per month -- that should set of major alarms.

You do not get to freely apply the item creation formulas however you may wish. I think the subsequent WotC articles make clear that a GM is to consider all of the formulas, as well as the price/cost of existing items, in determining an appropriate price of a new item.

[Clistenes]

Maybe it's just me, but I see no guideline authorization for your extra 90% reduction for making it 3/month instead of 1/day.

The table allows an 80% reduction for 1/day. Going beyond that gets cheesy fast: you can trivialize the cost of anything by making it usable only once every thousand years. (The characters don't care: they are essentially making single-use items for less than the single-use cost.)

The practical lower limit for any reusable item is the cost of a single-use, use-activated item: SL*CL*25+XP. For Wish or Genesis, that is 9*17*25 = 3,825 gp + 5,000 XP (I'm just ignoring the standard creation XP). Any formula that gets your price lower than this for the same item should be a cheese alert. If you are using a formula to get an item that is necessarily better -- i.e., 3 wishes per month -- that should set of major alarms.

The rule of "not reducing the price beyond that of 1/day items" for reusable stuff seems reasonable. I guess the weak point of the maths could be there.

The price of a Ring of Unlimited Wishes (1/day) still seems too low, but I guess it gets compensated by the fact that nobody would invest so much XP on it (unless you use Pipes of Power cheese, and pay a load of peasants to give you some XP each, or greatly reduce the XP investment with Crafting Feats cheese).

I guess this keeps the Demiplane-creating device at a minimum price of 765039 gp (if you use it to expand the demiplane once a day), or 850044 gp, if it's automatic (like an spell clock).


You do not get to freely apply the item creation formulas however you may wish. I think the subsequent WotC articles make clear that a GM is to consider all of the formulas, as well as the price/cost of existing items, in determining an appropriate price of a new item.

Again, I know you need DM approval, and that the DM must check and compare the price of the item with those that already exist and have a similar effect to make sure the price is right. I was just asking for a perceived fault in the estimation formulas.

[Stegyre]

Again, I know you need DM approval, and that the DM must check and compare the price of the item with those that already exist and have a similar effect to make sure the price is right. I was just asking for a perceived fault in the estimation formulas.
This is the fault in the estimation formulas: the assumption that you may choose any one formula that you like, without regard to the others. It is the paradigmatic why-can't-I-have-a-cheap-ring-of-true-strike? :smallwink:

Upon closer examination, here's another error in your formula: you do not get to divide the spell's XP cost by 5. You must pay the full 50*5,000 XP to create a multi-use Genesis, Wish, etc. (The "extra cost" section of the table follows after the divide-by-5 adjustment.)

[Clistenes]

This is the fault in the estimation formulas: the assumption that you may choose any one formula that you like, without regard to the others. It is the paradigmatic why-can't-I-have-a-cheap-ring-of-true-strike? :smallwink:

Upon closer examination, here's another error in your formula: you do not get to divide the spell's XP cost by 5. You must pay the full 50*5,000 XP to create a multi-use Genesis, Wish, etc. (The "extra cost" section of the table follows after the divide-by-5 adjustment.)

You sure? That would mean that creating an item that cast Wish 1/day would be almost as expensive as creating one that casts Wish 5/day (since what makes it really expensive would be the 50*5000 XP investment).

On the other hand, the estimation for creating an item that cast a spell 5/day is equal to that for creating an item that casts the spell unlimited times...which is even more absurd.

If you had to pay almost the same for a Ring of Wish 1/day and one that grants unlimited Wishes, you would just go for the latter, which costs 137,700 gp + 261,016 xp (base price 6,663,100 gp)...still amazingly powerful, but so costly that the characters able to pay it are already demigods, or just gods...(a 40th level character would have to sell all his/her gear to pay it...assuming you can either sell that kind of gear or buy that kind of major artifact-level stuff...and even paying the XP would be enough to kick him/her down like seven levels).

[Stegyre]

You sure?
Yes, I am sure. Look at the table (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Creating_Magic_Items#Table:_Estimating_Magic_I tem_Gold_Piece_Values): divide-by-five is a "Base Price Adjustment." Note that: "base price."

Below that, we have "Extra Cost" -- costs added onto the "base price" -- for components (including XP components). These are not subject to that divisor. (You would not say, "Divide the cost of a masterwork item by 5, because it has limited uses per day.")

That would mean that creating an item that cast Wish 1/day would be almost as expensive as creating one that casts Wish 5/day (since what makes it really expensive would be the 50*5000 XP investment).
It's not quite as easy as that. An item casting wish five times a day would be epic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/magicItems/basics.htm), because the market price (sans XP component) exceeds 200,000 gp. The creator will have to be level 21+ and have the appropriate epic item creation feat.

If you had to pay almost the same for a Ring of Wish 1/day and one that grants unlimited Wishes, you would just go for the latter, which costs 137,700 gp + 261,016 xp (base price 6,663,100 gp)...still amazingly powerful, but so costly that the characters able to pay it are already demigods, or just gods...(a 40th level character would have to sell all his/her gear to pay it...assuming you can either sell that kind of gear or buy that kind of major artifact-level stuff...and even paying the XP would be enough to kick him/her down like seven levels).
Since it grants unlimited wishes, each of which should be able to produce the equivalent of 25,000 gp, the actual cost is trivial: give a character an unlimited-use wish item and he can recover his market purchase price in (6,663,100/25,000)/10 = less than 27 minutes of continuous wishing.

This is another check that a GM would (should!) use in concluding that such items simply cannot be created, by anyone, at any cost.

SIDENOTE: I have never cared for the pay-XP-upon-creation-rather-than-use rule. A wish item could actually be feasible if the user had to pay the 5,000 XP as he went. That would limit the [ab]use! It might even make for an interesting campaign gimmick.

EDIT: Ring of Wishes: This simple gold band allows the wearer to cast the wish spell once per day. However, the wearer must pay the XP cost for casting a wish each time it is used. If the ring is used for a wish with a "greater effect" than those specified in the spell description, it will still work (subject to any possible perversions) but the ring itself is destroyed in the process.
Strong evocation (if miracle is used); CL 20th, Forge Ring, wish or miracle; Price 55,080 gp; Cost 27,540 gp + 2,203 XP (special note: the XP cost for wish is not paid in the creation and therefore not a factor in the price).

[Clistenes]

Since it grants unlimited wishes, each of which should be able to produce the equivalent of 25,000 gp, the actual cost is trivial: give a character an unlimited-use wish item and he can recover his market purchase price in (6,663,100/25,000)/10 = less than 27 minutes of continuous wishing.

The problem wouldn't be to recover the cost, it would be to create it in first place.

I guess a spellcaster with 50 character levels could afford a spell clock able to cast Genesis unlimited times and create those gigantic demiplanes I mentioned before.

As for your Ring of Wishes, I would make it that it could be able to drain levels if you spend too much XP, and the character would have to make a Will save to notice it (of course he/she would eventually notice when he/she lost caster levels and class features).

You could also make it cursed so you can't throw or destroy it, only pass it to another person willing to pay its price. You would also have to make a Will save to avoid to use it to save your life when your hit points went below 25 %.

[Stegyre]

The problem wouldn't be to recover the cost, it would be to create it in first place.
The XP cost, yes, unless a generous GM ruled that the XP cost can be shared. DMG at 215: "If two or more characters cooperate to create an item, they must agree among themselves who will be considered the creator . . . . The character designated as the creator pays the XP required to make the item."
If the XP cost can be shared, it would be incredibly easy to find investors to spread the cost (both gp and XP): who would not want "in" on an investment that pays for itself in less than 30 minutes and then generates pure profit at the rate of 250,000 gp/minute?

As for your Ring of Wishes, I would make it that it could be able to drain levels if you spend too much XP, and the character would have to make a Will save to notice it (of course he/she would eventually notice when he/she lost caster levels and class features).

You could also make it cursed so you can't throw or destroy it, only pass it to another person willing to pay its price. You would also have to make a Will save to avoid to use it to save your life when your hit points went below 25 %.
I really don't think there is the need. As a rule, a character cannot expend XP that will lower him a level. Thus, to even use this item, a character has to be at least 5,000 XP on his way to the next level. That's a pretty reasonable and self-restricting limit.

Look over what a wish (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm) can reasonably do and consider it is going to cost a character 5,000 XP (worth 25,000 gp on the open market) to do it, and it cannot be done more than once a day in any event. What do you think is so abusable that it would require further limitation?

[Clistenes]

I really don't think there is the need. As a rule, a character cannot expend XP that will lower him a level. Thus, to even use this item, a character has to be at least 5,000 XP on his way to the next level. That's a pretty reasonable and self-restricting limit.

Look over what a wish (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm) can reasonably do and consider it is going to cost a character 5,000 XP (worth 25,000 gp on the open market) to do it, and it cannot be done more than once a day in any event. What do you think is so abusable that it would require further limitation?

It was intended as a flaw that makes the item more flavorful. A "be careful what you wish for" and "cursed item of power/Lord of the Rings" sort of thing.

I would expect the PCs to keep track of their experience and to realize what the thing does very soon, and not to spend too much XP. Of course, in the hands of an NPC, the ring could be deadly, both for others and for the owner.

[Voidling]

Making money from a Demiplane

It will take my Demiplane seed 170 days to grow to 342 in diameter then gaining 4 in diameter per year (see spoiler for details). I been thinking of ways to make money from a Demiplane with two gateways connecting it to other Planes. Then there is the social and political problems that might arise which I will need to deal with.

Demiplane seed
Upon completion of the work, the seed opens into a minuscule spherical demiplane, 1 foot in radius. It grows quickly, gaining 1 foot in radius per day up to a maximum radius of 10 feet × the planeshifter’s highest caster level. After reaching that size, the demiplane continues to grow slowly, gaining 2 feet of radius per year. If its creator perishes, the demiplane stops growing.

Merchant via warehouse Demiplane
Setting up two business on the both planes and connect them via the Demiplane. Setting up the gates in large cities and move goods back and forth to make a profit seems a simple enough idea. Then it's a matter of high enough merchant skill and having staff I could trust, LG Priest with high sense motive would help. Then their would be the government and taxis to consider, my character is lawful so he would pay taxis. But the government may not take kindly to a interdimensional gateway build in their city that they don't understand and don't control. If I wanted to keep the business a secret it would be harder, but I could place the gateways in a large port cities, within a mage collage then use tunnels to a warehouse to move the goods around. This is a great way to get access to a lot of magic lore, items and regents.

My character being lawful I would want to deal with the government directly he would have to get help delving into the politics of both plans and making deals. Governments with neutral or lawful alignment could bargained with would try to control it access to the gateway. Evil aligned governments would most like try take over the demiplane in the long run and over tax in the short term. Good aligned governments would still be hard to deal with and any bargain may not be as locative as more neutral governments, but if my character could a sure them it was safe and it would benefit the city it would mostly be the best long term deal.

Management via a market Demiplane
Connect two cities via the Demiplane but let other people deal with trying to make a profit and just make money from rents. This would have all the politics problems with the ware house idea and what happens when the people from the market mingle? unless it was a secret black or grey market that's a semi open secret with large bribes given to both cities. For a character that wants to let the world(s) come to him this would be a cool idea.

Transport hub Demiplane
As the demiplane grows I could build sets of gates (I would need the feat), building them to order for as much as people are willing to pay. This would be a lot easier as government would come to me, put I would have to keep it a secret that other people have gateway sets. Oh and I would keep a master key for all the gates.

Vault Demiplane
What could be saver that a safe in it's own reality. A network of banks with gateways to the vault demiplane would have to be set up. Small interdimensional bank boxes of holding and a some Stasis chambers would be needed. A lot of politics could be avoided by simple not tell people that there are other gateways or that the vault is in a demiplane ect.

Inn or hotel Demiplane
This idea has all ready been done many times over, but as I can set the energy trait when the demiplane seed is created (see info in spoiler for full deals) to minor positive dominant. This would make it a great Hotel for Honey moons as “sensations are more intense as a result of the positive energy...”. For a CG bard that reveres Lastai (see BoED for details) it would be great retirement plan but maybe not really for a bookish wizard.

Minor positive-dominant plane
A minor positive-dominant plane is a riotous explosion of life in all its forms. Colours are brighter, fires are hotter, noises are louder, and sensations are more intense as a result of the positive energy swirling through the plane. All individuals in a positive-dominant plane gain fast healing 2 as an extraordinary ability for as long as they remain there.

Other ideas such as a research lab, prison, safe house and base of operations have all ready been flesh out but not...

Cheese Demiplane
As you approach the demiplanes gateway it looks like any other gate in the rural farm area from the out side. But as you cross the threshold you find your self in a near endless perfect field of rich green grass stretching out before you. The gate behind you now stands alone no longer connected to a wall. But beside the near uncountable amount of cows standing a round eating grass there is one building a short walk from the gate. As you approach you first thing you notice is the strong cheesy smell, the building is a lovely large cottage has two doors one has a knocker and the other a sign that reads “cheese cave (http://www.cheesemaking.com/includes/modules/jwallace/onlinenews/newsfiles/cave/cave2.html)”. About a minute after you use the door knocker a large (for a gnome) opens the door saying “Hi I'm Munchkin, welcome to the demiplane of Cheese! did bring the secret ingredients?”. Not quite sure you nod and then with a wide grin from Munchkin start handing over the large bundle of splat books and old dragon magazines...

I'm still look for more ideas both ideas how to use demiplanes and cool landscapes to create.

[Clistenes]

Wouldn't be cheaper to create a bunch of Permanent Teleportation Circles in a building? And more teleportation circles sending whoever steps on them to that same building? You could send a caravan of mules or camels to the building and from the building to another country via teleportation circle.

Or even cheaper, create an item that cast Greater Teleport unlimited times per day and an Enveloping Pit to use as container, and transport thousands of tons of expensive goods every day.

The vault idea could work, but, who could pay enough to make it profitable? (by the way, can you, as creator, block passage to the plane to planeshifters, or do you need to make some extra stuff, like a weirdstone, to make it impreganable?).

[Kelb_Panthera]

If your DM owns the epic handbook, be careful with that.

The city of Union's mercane run cartels might not like the idea of a competitor to their city joining the scene. It's the kind of plot-hook I'd lay down.

[Voidling]

If your DM owns the epic handbook, be careful with that.

The city of Union's mercane run cartels might not like the idea of a competitor to their city joining the scene. It's the kind of plot-hook I'd lay down.


As we are not playing post epic I'm not really worry about the Mercane, but the city of union does seem to have all my ideas in one demiplane, thanks for bringing it up.

[Voidling]

Wouldn't be cheaper to create a bunch of Permanent Teleportation Circles in a building? And more teleportation circles sending whoever steps on them to that same building? You could send a caravan of mules or camels to the building and from the building to another country via teleportation circle.

Or even cheaper, create an item that cast Greater Teleport unlimited times per day and an Enveloping Pit to use as container, and transport thousands of tons of expensive goods every day.

The vault idea could work, but, who could pay enough to make it profitable? (by the way, can you, as creator, block passage to the plane to planeshifters, or do you need to make some extra stuff, like a weirdstone, to make it impreganable?).

I see your point, tho Permanent Teleportation Circles can't go between planes which in my campaign I need to do. Custom magic items need DM approval and a item that cast Greater Teleport unlimited times per day would cost a huge amount, see the math below. Making the Banks vault idea profitable depends largely on ones campaign setting and find out if their a market for such an idea. My character has the skill points to become a merchant if needed or what ever the D&D 3.5 market research skill or class is. Thanks for the advice about Demiplanes protection I'll look into them. Demiplanes that don't have a gateway (for example from the spell Genesis) can only really be gone into via some thing like the planeshift spell, then your need to have a focus which is a turning fork made from metal from the demiplane and your current plane. The best way I have come up with to keep a demiplane safe, is for no one to know it even exists.

one use
7 * 13 * 25 = 2,275

unlimited
7 * 13 * 2000 = 182,000

once per day
(7 * 13 * 2000)/5 = 36,400

[Clistenes]

I see your point, tho Permanent Teleportation Circles can't go between planes which in my campaign I need to do. Custom magic items need DM approval and a item that cast Greater Teleport unlimited times per day would cost a huge amount, see the math below. Making the Banks vault idea profitable depends largely on ones campaign setting and find out if their a market for such an idea. My character has the skill points to become a merchant if needed or what ever the D&D 3.5 market research skill or class is. Thanks for the advice about Demiplanes protection I'll look into them. Demiplanes that don't have a gateway (for example from the spell Genesis) can only really be gone into via some thing like the planeshift spell, then your need to have a focus which is a turning fork made from metal from the demiplane and your current plane. The best way I have come up with to keep a demiplane safe, is for no one to know it even exists.

one use
7 * 13 * 25 = 2,275

unlimited
7 * 13 * 2000 = 182,000

once per day
(7 * 13 * 2000)/5 = 36,400

An item able to cast Greater Teleport unlimited times would be obscenely expensive, but hiring a mage to create a permanent Teleportation Circle requires at least 15.3 gp for casting the spell plus 1000 gp of amber dust plus spend 4500 xp (costing 22500 gp), so 23515.3 gp for a simple one way travel. Double that for a double way travel 47030.6 gp. Add another 47030.6 gp for any other location you want to trade with.

As for interplanar travel, a single Portal costs 100.000 gp (half that amount, if it only works in one direction), according to the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting handbook. Even if you create an item that casts Plane Shift and another that casts Greater Teleport at will, it would still be cheaper that a net of Portals...

Or, what the hell, make a Simulacrum of a Couatl and another of a Succubus and make them use Plane Shift and Greater Teleport for you! One can stay into the Enveloping Pit while the other travel.

Of course, if you manage to convince thousands of people to use your Demiplane, then yes, the volume of wares could easily be thousandfold the amount you could move and trade yourself (you have negotiate, buy, sell, fill and empty the Enveloping Pit, after all, even if travel is instantaneous).

[Voidling]

An item able to cast Greater Teleport unlimited times would be obscenely expensive, but hiring a mage to create a permanent Teleportation Circle requires at least 15.3 gp for casting the spell plus 1000 gp of amber dust plus spend 4500 xp (costing 22500 gp), so 23515.3 gp for a simple one way travel. Double that for a double way travel 47030.6 gp. Add another 47030.6 gp for any other location you want to trade with.

As for interplanar travel, a single Portal costs 100,000 gp (half that amount, if it only works in one direction), according to the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting handbook. Even if you create an item that casts Plane Shift and another that casts Greater Teleport at will, it would still be cheaper that a net of Portals...

Thanks for doing the maths for permanent Teleportation Circles they are cheaper than portal and my character being a mage I could create them. But I need them to be inter-planer so I'll need portals (see my earlier post about the port creation feat) which makes them a lot cheaper. But it's not just personal use I'm looking for, portal and for that matter permanent Teleportation Circles allow untold amounts of people to use them for thousands of years which in the long term is worth it (see my earlier post about way to live for ever).


Or, what the hell, make a Simulacrum of a Couatl and another of a Succubus and make them use Plane Shift and Greater Teleport for you! One can stay into the Enveloping Pit while the other travel.

Interesting idea, but after looking the Simulacrum spell, then read their entries in Savage Species (page 195) what abilities and powers they would have at half hit dice. It would not work as they don't get their abilities until later.

Simulacrum
“It appears to be the same as the original, but it has only one-half of the real creature’s levels or Hit Dice (and the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD)”

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Simulacrum


Of course, if you manage to convince thousands of people to use your Demiplane, then yes, the volume of wares could easily be thousandfold the amount you could move and trade yourself (you have negotiate, buy, sell, fill and empty the Enveloping Pit, after all, even if travel is instantaneous).

The difficulty of using a demiplane as market (or other business venture) greatly depends on the campaign and how the DM wants thing to be. Some DM are more then happy for players to setup shop and the adventure revolves around the business venture for some of the campaign, other DM don't. I'm sure most DM don't want players getting huge amounts of gold for little effort/risk but if the plot requires something that could be solve by lots of gold that does not go directly to the players. For example raising funds for disaster relief, helping a dwarf players clan set up a new home in a human city after their hold as been destroyed ect.

ENVELOPING PIT [RELIC]
To use the relic power, you must worship Kurtulmak and either sacrifice a 5th-level divine spell slot or have the True Believer feat and at least 9 HD.

Not being evil and worshipping a Kobold God my character would not use the item but I do know Warlock that could easily trick such an item. Problem is relics are hard to come by in our campaign as you can't create them unless you worship the deity in question. But the basic idea of using items of holding to transport goods and teleporting/planeshifting is a good one and I'll try and use to make the money I'll need for my portals and other high end items with out the risk adventure brings thanks.

[Clistenes]

Interesting idea, but after looking the Simulacrum spell, then read their entries in Savage Species (page 195) what abilities and powers they would have at half hit dice. It would not work as they don't get their abilities until later.

Simulacrum
“It appears to be the same as the original, but it has only one-half of the real creature’s levels or Hit Dice (and the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD)”

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Simulacrum

You could always use the spell on advanced monsters. A Simulacrum of a 12 HD succubus would give you a normal succubus, I think. Same for the couatl (use the spell on a 18 HD coualt).





ENVELOPING PIT [RELIC]
To use the relic power, you must worship Kurtulmak and either sacrifice a 5th-level divine spell slot or have the True Believer feat and at least 9 HD.

Not being evil and worshipping a Kobold God my character would not use the item but I do know Warlock that could easily trick such an item. Problem is relics are hard to come by in our campaign as you can't create them unless you worship the deity in question. But the basic idea of using items of holding to transport goods and teleporting/planeshifting is a good one and I'll try and use to make the money I'll need for my portals and other high end items with out the risk adventure brings thanks.

I think you can create any relic as a normal magic item increasing the price. By putting restrictions on a magical items, you can push its price down to the 60% (multiply by 0.6), so I guess you could do the opposite, and divide by 0.6:

3,600/0.6 = 6,000 gp.

If your DM doesn't think that's enough, just increase the price a bit more.

[Voidling]

You could always use the spell on advanced monsters. A Simulacrum of a 12 HD succubus would give you a normal succubus, I think. Same for the couatl (use the spell on a 18 HD coualt).


I checked the monster manual and succubus are maxed at 12 hit dice, as the spell half's that to 6 hit dice and according to the working of the spell and the Savage Species book (page 195) succubus only get their greater powers at 8 hit dice. As my character is going to be 10/10 mage/planeshifter I'll have all the travel options I'll need anyway.


I think you can create any relic as a normal magic item increasing the price. By putting restrictions on a magical items, you can push its price down to the 60% (multiply by 0.6), so I guess you could do the opposite, and divide by 0.6:

3,600/0.6 = 6,000 gp.

If your DM doesn't think that's enough, just increase the price a bit more.

Thats good to know I'll inquire with my DM. In our campaign their is a gnomish god of space and time, so I might just try to get the item re-fluffed .

Creating a Demiplane is what I plan to do near the end of our campaign so I'm looking at the idea more from a DM point of view. I like the idea of building a mini world with enough detail that it could be used again in anther campaign with my mage as a npc.

[Clistenes]

I checked the monster manual and succubus are maxed at 12 hit dice, as the spell half's that to 6 hit dice and according to the working of the spell and the Savage Species book (page 195) succubus only get their greater powers at 8 hit dice. As my character is going to be 10/10 mage/planeshifter I'll have all the travel options I'll need anyway.

The racial progression from Savage Species takes into account the Succubus LA, not only her HD. A 6 HD succubus is around ECL 12 (I can't remember), so a 12 HD succubus would be around ECL 18, and a Succubus Simulacra would be above its 8th racial progression level.

[Ranting Fool]

Voidling I'm very pleased you've already rejected the more cheesy-ish ideas so I don't have to be the bad guy :smallbiggrin:

You were planning on using your class ability at level 20 to do all this right? Which gives us 7-8 levels to sort something out.

As far as your realm growing each year and becoming "immortal" I'm happy to sort something like that out for your characters retirement :smallbiggrin: as age wouldn't be an issue in our current campaign for quite a while.

Somehow I don't see your character making a deal with a bunch of Devils to create your Demiplane like the ones you've visited though having a bunch of co-operative spell casters working with you could help (Not that there are anywhere near enough living on this plane currently, you'd have to sort that out) or perhaps find/craft an artifact with the power to boost your abilities (which would take your character some time researching and artifacts are never easy to find or create)

[Voidling]

The racial progression from Savage Species takes into account the Succubus LA, not only her HD. A 6 HD succubus is around ECL 12 (I can't remember), so a 12 HD succubus would be around ECL 18, and a Succubus Simulacra would be above its 8th racial progression level.

Again thanks helping by explaining that by RAW the Simulacrum spell would allow you to have unlimited travel any where in the multiverse. With only two castings of a level seven spell and some gold :smallamused:.

[Voidling]

Page 7 manual of the planes for Demiplane trait info
Page 155 manual of the planes for quick list of traits

The demiplane seed will be fractal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractal) in nature, containing all the detail of a living prime material plane world in a single flawless gem. As the demiplane grows it's fractal nature will unfurl, small drops of water will become pools which will grow to ponds then lakes until they are oceans. Ridges will grow to hills and the hills into mountains.

Shape Trait = Self-contained (edges wrap)

The Demiplane will be shaped into sphere with open space on the inside and infinite rock on the outside. Think of an apple with all but the core empty, the core is two mountains one at each pole that nearly touch each other in the middle of the sphere. If one is at the base of one of the mountains the world seems flat but the horizon stretches up wards making mountains look taller. This of course happens when the demiplane is reaching near moon size.

Gravity Trait = Normal gravity strength (Objective Directional Gravity)

Down is on the inside of the sphere and up is the middle of the sphere, beside where the mountain tops nearly meet which has (Subjective Directional Gravity). Neither pole is up nor down as such.

Time Trait = Normal (this trait can be changed)

set to the time of the material plane

Morphic Trait = Alterable Morphic

Can be shaped and changed like the material plane with picks, hammers and shovels ect.

Energy and Elemental Traits = minor positive-dominant

A minor positive-dominant plane is a riotous explosion of life in all its forms. Colours are brighter, fires are hotter, noises are louder, and sensations are more intense as a result of the positive energy swirling through the plane. All individuals in a positive-dominant plane gain fast healing 2 as an extraordinary ability for as long as they remain there.

Alignment Traits = mildly good-aligned

evil alignment suffer a –2 circumstance penalty on all Charisma-based checks

Magic Trait = Normal (this trait can be changed)

Like the material plane, I need to find other means to control how magic works in the demiplane.

Light = a small sun (as suns go)

The sun orbits the two mountains taking one day to go round them. This creates a day and night cycle of a sort. The sun will grow as the demiplane grows, getting bigger as the distance in the sphere increases. Thus keeping the amount light the same as the demiplane grows.

Stars = lots

I'm not sure if I want to create stars, they could simple be many little suns that have their own orbits. As they would be far smaller that the sun and thus shin far dimmer they would only be visible during the night time. The stars would move in constellations that would change their pattern as the demiplane years proceeds. It would be cool if their constellations would have some meaning whether it is schools of magic or how a portal connects to anther plane.

Moon = how many ?

Like the stars I'm not sure if I want any, it could counter balance the sun and rotate in the opposite position. It could be a platform for a portal that is configured to connect to other planes via the constellations of the stars. It would be hard to get for most travellers to get to. As on the material plane I could use it to create tides, but being a demiplane it would not really be needed.

Seasons = four

The demiplane has the material planes four seasons. This is done by the sun's orbit being nearer to one pole for a quarter of the year and then being in the middle a quarter of the year. Then near the other pole for the next quarter and finally back in the middle for the last quarter.

Atmosphere = same as material plane

The demiplane will mostly have nice weather with clouds gather round the polar mountains blocking them from sight most of the time. Sunny, rain, hail, snow, sleet and some storms.

Water = same as material plane

pools, ponds, lakes, oceans, connected by streams, rivers which are fed by clouds

Temperature = mostly same range of temperatures as material plane but with out the hot or cold extremists

Terrain = same as material plane (bar the poler mountains and inward curved world)

It will have planes, hills, mountains and valleys (no large deserts or frozen wastes)

Live = as material plane (but tamer)

I'll need a druid/nature priest to help start a eco-system, importing bacteria, yeasts, plants, insects then animals and so on. The minor positive energy traits should help turbo charge the process and the mildly good-aligned trait will stop it going all jurassic park on me.

Twine polar mountains

One polar mountain will be in an ocean with steps crave from the sea up to the summit. As the demiplane grows the steps will grow with it and small steps will need to be caved into them every so often. This will cause a pattern like a sea shell to slow take form. The other will be in a mountain range with platinum dragon craving wrapped around it.

Access = via portals (key can un/lock) and planeshift spell

Via a portal location on the material plane. Later more sets of portals will be build to connect to other demiplanes and more location on the material plane as needed.

any suggestion or ideas are welcome

[Voidling]

Lets have a look at the Genesis spell and how many casting it would take to compare to the demiplane seed growing to get the same area. One mile is 5280 feet so:

5280 / 360 = 14.66666666666667

It would take 15 (round up) castings of the Genesis spell and 75,000 exp to make a mile diameter demiplane or 1234 years to with the planeshifter being alive to get to the same size. So lets have a look at other casting amounts plus exp cost then years needed for a planeshifter from the chart below.

{table="head;width=650" ]Area desired|amount of feed in diameter|castings needed|exp needed|demiplane seed growing time|casting genesis once per week
Demiplane|360|1|5k|170 days|1 week
Mile|5,280|15|75k|1234 years|3 months
London|237,600|660|3,300k|59,400 years|13 years
Moon|11,400,262|31,667|158,335k|2,850,065 years|607 years
Earth|41,851,050|116,253|581,265k|10,462,762 years|2,230 years
Solar system|7,500,000,000|20,833,333|104,166,665k|1,875 ,000,000 years|399,543 years
[/table]

Looking at the chart it would take 237,600 years to grow the demiplane to the diameter of London (oh my :smalleek:) so I would need some sort of suspended animation or create an item/artifact.

[Phelix-Mu]

I always go by the idea that, if the players can do it, someone in the past probably already did. Since there isn't a world run by a lich that had an accelerated time vast demiplane and a penchant for kidnapping and breeding humanoids into a large nation before slaying and reanimating them en masse (with time and fairly average magic, this is all pretty easy), then returning to the Prime to conquer the world.

Since no wizard or spellcaster/manifester has done this yet, it probably isn't possible.

[AuraTwilight]

Or the player will be the first person to do it because D&D worlds are necessarily protagonist-centric.

[mattie_p]

I believe in the Epic Level Handbook there is a quote to the effect of "Someone has to be first." Depending on the setting, it might well be the PCs.

[Voidling]

I always go by the idea that, if the players can do it, someone in the past probably already did. Since there isn't a world run by a lich that had an accelerated time vast demiplane and a penchant for kidnapping and breeding humanoids into a large nation before slaying and reanimating them en masse (with time and fairly average magic, this is all pretty easy), then returning to the Prime to conquer the world.

Since no wizard or spellcaster/manifester has done this yet, it probably isn't possible.

The part I made bold really does not make sense. How do you know what of the thousands ideas DM's have come up for campaigns do not include what you have stated?

If you take out the accelerated time part Liches don't care about time. Then have the descends of kidnapped humanoids tricked into worshiping the Lich as the high priest of Wee Jas or like. Then just animate the humanoids after they die of old age in the city of the dead. The lich would have a near endless supply of bodies to created undead from, slaying and reanimating them en masse is killing the gold goose so to speak. The Lich is LE not stupidly evil in my example.

[Voidling]

Suspended Animation
After working out the huge amount of time I need to grow the demiplane I'm considering the following spells and that give a form of suspended animation. Being an un-ageing immortal will be nice for the first mile stone of one mile diameter, but 1234 years even in a positive energy demiplane still has risks. I'll consider the pro and cons of each and then a plan do a Harry Houdini and escape my own confinement.

Mage collage
One of the uses of a demiplane is as a mage collage, he would set up the collage with portals to magic guilds and such allowing them to use the demiplane to study safely and travel to other arcane organisations with ease. Hopeful the organisation would last long enough so that while my character waits for his demiplane to grow to will exist to free him when the time comes.

Time vault
Build from Magically treated Reinforced masonry 1 ft. 65 16 360 hp 15 then a layer of very hard material (for SRD reference, Magically Treated Adamantine would be Hardness 40). lastly add a layer of Lead to be on the safe side. Cast Forbid and/or Dimensional Lock inside to prevent teleportation and other planar travel then a permanent Mordenkainen’s Private Sanctum spell. Add a layer of Prismatic Wall onto the wall, and then Walls of Force. The Walls of Force would stop any cave in effecting the vault if they were made into a cube the size of the room.

False vault
The False vault is located at the logical end of the dungeon complex with enough protection wards to fool any body Scrying or breaking into vault that they have found what they are looking for. It would have faked evidence that the vault has all ready been raided.

Secret false vault
Set up Like the False vault but hidden behind a secret door near the end of the dungeon complex. This chamber would look like the fake vault but has a fake magic item made with Nystul’s Magic Aura spell, making the item look like it has near artefact level magic aura(s). The DM lets magic items have Nystul’s Magic Aura permanently enchanted on them in our campaign.

Flesh to Stone
I would enlarge my self and pose on a plinth then be turned to stone waiting for the day that my demiplane would be the size I want. Vault - spring board -stone flesh spell - rune circle of break enchantment - pond.

In the time vault I would construct two ever-open portal (nonliving-only) to the plane of water one draws a small amount of water and the sends the same amount back. The first portal would fill a pool and water would drain down to the second portal keeping the pool full. The water from the first portal would slowly ware away a stone spring board that my petrified character will be standing on. I would calculated the time it would take for the stone spring board to break (1234 years in this case). When the spring board breaks my petrified character drop into the pool activating a rune circle of break enchantment. 1234 would would have past in a moment and would a live and well... wet.

pro's: low level to cast and thus easy to get out, members of the mage collage could get me out easily in years to come if it goes wrong.
con's: adventure like my self seeing a life like statue would turn back to flesh and then expect reward for rescuing me or worse. A corner stone of D&D is old half broken statue which might become me...

Temporal Stasis
At the entrance of my mage collage on one of the poler mountains I would enlarge my self and pose on a plinth then be with an utterance freeze my self in time or I might use a time vault beneath the collage and stasis my self in their. A spell clock could be set to count down until I wanted to be freed by casting the needed spell to undo the spell keep me in suspended animation this would have to be built into my time vault so it can not be moved.

pro's: saver then Flesh to Stone
con's: it will cost 5000 gold and a higher level mage would be needed to get me out. Again adventurers will find the vault and save me and then expect reward for rescuing me or worse.

Imprisonment
The highest level spell I have found and the hard for some one to mess with. See spell clock (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cw/20070312a) above set to cast the spell freedom or researching a version of Temporal Stasis or Imprisonment that decays with time and would release me when I want to be it would cost around 9,000gp and take two months. They would be weaker then the normal spells so a DM would most like likely allow it.

pro's: all the benefits of temporal stasis plus being buried far below the earth only a discern location spell can find the location but the mind blank spell will block it so no body would know where to cast a freedom spell that is needed to get ones self out.
Con's: it's going to be very hard to get out if the plan goes wrong EeeK

Smoky confinement
<?Add?>

1234 year Quintessence clock
The idea is taken from this great thread called The Dream of Metal - http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=121334 by Fishy. I would simplify the concept so that it would just create Stasis of given length. The Quintessence clock would be built into the time vault for safe keeping.

Living in the Astral Planes
Of all the standard D&D planes the astral Plane plane is the most useful for some one trying to live longer with it's non-aging quality and other benefits (see below). Living in the astral plane would be the simplest idea, importing matter to build a home ect. But it's not with out it's risks and so it would be nice to take it's traits to the material plane or ones demiplane. Planeshifters at 9th level gain the planar area swap ability (see blew) it lasts for 10 days plus planeshifter level so one could easily build a chamber with retracting walls, floor & ceiling. Then levitate in the middle of the chamber swap out a 20 feet spherical area or large of the material/demiplane for the astral plane. Then move the walls, floor & ceiling back in place. At Planeshifters level 10 can swap a 1000 spherical area so maybe a a whole clockwork reconfigurable house could be crafted.

ASTRAL TRAITS
ASTRAL TRAITS
Of the three Transitive Planes, the Astral Plane is the most alien to natives of the Material Plane. The first-time traveler from the Material Plane finds almost nothing familiar. The Astral Plane has the following traits.

• No Gravity: Those traveling through it move by thought (see below). Objects and creatures with no Intelligence score cannot move in the Astral Plane, though they may be pushed.
• Timeless: Age, hunger, thirst, poison, and natural healing don’t function in the Astral Plane, though they resume functioning when the traveler leaves the Astral Plane.
• Infinite Size.
• AlterableMorphic Trait.
• No Elemental or Energy Traits: Some small regions on the plane may have one or more of these traits, but the plane as a whole does not.
• Mildly Neutral-Aligned.
• Enhanced Magic: All spells and spell-like abilities used within the astral may be employed as if they were improved by the Quicken Spell feat. Already quickened spells and spell-like abilities are unaffected, as are spells from magic items. Spells so quickened are still prepared and cast at their unmodified level. As with the Quicken Spell feat, only one quickened spell can be cast per round.

Planar Area Swap
Planar Area Swap (Sp): At 9th level, a planeshifter gains the ability to move sections of the landscape from one plane to another. A spherical area of up to a 100-foot radius per planeshifter level, centered on the planeshifter, may be so moved. Any unwilling individuals within the sphere can make a Will saving throw (DC 20) to negate the swap completely. As with the plane shift spell, fine control of the destination is impossible. When the fragment is brought onto the new plane, the traits of the new plane apply themselves within 1d4 rounds. A part of the Elemental Plane of Fire brought onto the Material Plane burns briefly (1d4 rounds), for example, then dissipates. Because it’s a swap, an equal area of the destination plane appears in the plane of origination. The plane of origination applies its planar traits to the new area in 1d4 rounds. The swapped areas switch back in a number of days equal to 10 + planeshifter level.

For none planeshifters Anchor plane Psionic ability could be used instead in fact in some way it might be more useful taking the timeless trait for a 150 area sphere with out the need to reconfigure ones dwelling every two weeks. Anchor plane is in the Eberron campaign so checking with the DM is needed. If spell research is allowed in your campaign a divine/arcane version could be researched for about 8000 gold and 8 weeks study modifying it to allow it work in demiplanes might also be an option at the DM discretion.

Anchor plane from faiths of eberron page 152
ANCHOR PLANE
Metacreativity (Creation)
Level: Psion/wilder 8
Display: Material and visual
Manifesting Time: 8 hours
Range: See text
Area:5-foot radius; see text
Effect: A manifest zone attuned to the plane of your choice, centered on an anchor point; see text
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Power Resistance: No
Power Points: 15, XP
You focus on the psionic anchor in a week-long ritual, attuning yourself and the area to planar energies. With a brief glow of sparkling motes, a manifest zone is born. You create a manifest zone of a specified plane, anchored to a specific point prepared for this purpose (such as a quori monolith). The anchor point must include a Siberys dragonshard, or a piece of material or essence from the anchored plane, of at least 1,000 gp value. This power works only while on the Material Plane, and you must remain within 30 feet of the anchor site during the entire manifestation time. Manifestation of this power creates a local weakness in the planar boundary that precipitates the creation of a 5-foot-radius manifest zone. The fledgling zone expands in radius at the rate of 5 feet per day to a maximum radius of 150 feet. Additional manifestations of this power don’t stack (though multiple adjacent or overlapping areas can be created). The new manifest zone has one planar trait of your choice from the plane to which it is connected. The manifest zone can be enhanced using intensify manifest zone or psionic intensify manifest zone.
XP Cost:750 XP.

1,234 years as a statue even in a time vault not be the best idea come to think it. So any idea are welcome, also lets see what a magic item could do.

[Voidling]

Now looking back at Clistenes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14318599&postcount=39) post with the idea of using a magic ring of genesis, the total cost to create a Ring of Genesis at will would be 137700 gp + 272032 xp. To obtain a ring that cast Genesis 1/day, you divide that by 5 so, 27540 gp + 54406 xp. To make the at will version with the feat (Legendary Artisan) that lowers exp cost of magic item creation by 25% it would cost 204,024 xp which is just under the 210,000 exp for epic level 21. The gold cost could be reduced to 34,425 with the feat (Extraordinary Artisan).

If one did not sleep the Genesis ring could be use 14400 times per day taking just under 2.2 days to reach the diameter of the moon 3,167, the earth in 8 days and the solar system in 1447 days or 4 and a half years. That is Epic and an epic of amount of coffee would be needed to be drank to keep awake.

Making the item continuous would be a good idea (less coffee needed) and not portability to balance out the cost. Maybe a rune circle from RoD would be better then a ring? (see info below) but it would require anther feat. A rune circle in total could reduce the cost by 75% times then anther 50% if it was one 5-ft square cost as little as 4303 gold! This is of course very low and no DM would allow it, I'm just using the rules given and see where they lead. The Exp need would now be the biggest part of the cost. Problem with only being 5-ft in diameter only one person could use it, so a standard sized would allow the demiplanes to grow many times quicker, but I could not sell the item on when I'm done with it.

As with all custom magic items it's at the DM discretion, even paying the epic level of experience up front a DM might consider such an item broken. But comparing it to an item that cast wish, which would cost the same amount and as I have earlier stated in this thread demiplanes don't make you any richer or powerful with out more work being done to utilize them.

Races of stone - Rune circles
CRAFT RUNE CIRCLE

You can create rune circles, stationary magic items that hold
a variety of spells and effects.
Prerequisite: Caster level 5th.

Benefit: You can create a rune circle whose prerequisites you meet (see Sample Rune Circles on page 168 for prerequisites and other information on rune circles). Creating a rune circle takes one day for each 1,000 gp in its price. To create a rune circle, you must spend 1/25 of the item’s price in XP and use up raw materials costing one-half of this price. You can also mend a broken rune circle if it is one that you could make. Doing so costs half the XP, half the raw materials, and half the time it would take to craft that item in the first place. Some rune circles incur extra costs in material components or XP, as noted in their descriptions. These costs are in addition to those derived from the item’s base price.

In game terms, creating a rune circle works just like creating a magic item. Additional factors affect the price of a rune circle, such as the size of the circle, but otherwise the creation process is the same. To create a rune circle, a character must have the Craft Rune Circle feat (described in Chapter 6 of this book). To estimate the gold piece value of a rune circle, start by estimating the value of a standard magic item with the powers of the rune circle. Since a rune circle is an immovable item, divide this value by 4. This calculation provides a reasonable estimate for a rune circle with a 10-foot radius, which is the typical size for a rune circle. If the rune circle is smaller or larger than 10 feet in radius, the DM may choose to reduce or increase the cost according to Table 7–7: Variant Rune Circle Sizes. In some cases, the estimated gold piece value might not fully represent the appropriate value for a rune circle. For instance, a rune circle that grants a bonus on Craft checks is worth more than the estimate would suggest, since the circle’s lack of portability isn’t a significant factor in its utility. Feel free to multiply the price for such a rune circle by 2 or even 4 to arrive at a more appropriate value.

Table 7–7: Variant Rune Circle Sizes
Size Price Adjustment
5-ft. square Reduce price by 50%
5-ft. radius Reduce price by 25%
10-ft. radius —
15-ft. radius Increase price by 50%
20-ft. radius Increase price by 100%


In Role Playing terms one would be channelling huge quantities of arcane or divine power over large quantities of time, an artefact may be more appropriate

[I]thanks to Clistenes & tuggyne for help with my wonky math

[Arcanist]

I have never actually seen anyone explore the details of Demiplanes as much as you Mr. Voidling. Allow me to give you a round of applause (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxAKFlpdcfc) :smallamused:

[Clistenes]

Now looking back at Clistenes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14318599&postcount=39) post with the idea of using a magic ring of genesis, the total cost to create a Ring of Genesis at will would be 137700 gp + 261,016 xp. To obtain a ring that cast Genesis 1/day, you divide that by 5 so, 27540 gp + 52,204 xp. To make the at will version with the feat (Legendary Artisan) that lowers exp cost of magic item creation by 25% it would cost 195762 exp which is just under the 210,000 exp for epic level 21. The gold cost could be reduced to 34,425 with the feat (Extraordinary Artisan).

I don't want to burst your bubble, but another poster told me that my calculations were wrong, since you have to add the extra 50x5000 = 250,000 xp after dividing the cost by 5, not before...so it would cost 27540 gp + 2203,2 xp + 250000 xp = 27540 gp + 252203,2 xp.

[TuggyNE]

If one did not sleep the Genesis ring could be use 1440 times per day taking just under 22 days to reach the diameter of the moon 3,1667, the earth in 80 days and the solar system in 14,468 days or 40 and a half years.

Your calculations are off here by either a factor of ten (assuming a standard action) or a factor of 10080 (if it takes the usual full week to cast).

[Voidling]

I don't want to burst your bubble, but another poster told me that my calculations were wrong, since you have to add the extra 50x5000 = 250,000 xp after dividing the cost by 5, not before...so it would cost 27540 gp + 2203,2 xp + 250000 xp = 27540 gp + 252203,2 xp.

could you link the post please.

after re-reading your math Clistenes you seem to have added a comma in the wrong place (2203,2 ?).

22032 xp + 250000 xp = 272,032 xp then with the Legendary Artisan feat that reduce the cost by 25% it would be 204,024 xp still under the 210,000 xp need for level 21. I was wrong by 8262 xp thanks, I'll edit the post to clarify between the daily version of the magic item and the continuous use version.

[Voidling]

Your calculations are off here by either a factor of ten (assuming a standard action) or a factor of 10080 (if it takes the usual full week to cast).

your right their is 14400 not 1440. I'll re-do my calculations and edit my earlier post. I did my calculations as if the ring does it effect like other magic items and thus very 6 seconds it full effect could be used. This might be wrong but it seems to fit with how other magic items work.

thanks for pointing that out

[Stegyre]

could you link the post please.
That would be this one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14323930&postcount=47), with slightly more comment two posts further down.

EDIT: To decrease the XP cost substantially, use the psionic Genesis instead (1,000 XP / manifestation).

Some further comments:

It probably makes no sense to try to make this a "continuous" item, and it looks like that would not work by RAW. The first evidence of this is in the spell description, as follows:

Once the basic demiplane reaches its maximum size, the spellcaster can continue to cast this spell to enlarge the demiplane, adding another 180 feet of radius to the demiplane each time.
Thus, you need to wait 180 days between each casting, as that is the time it takes to grow to "an initial maximum radius of 180 feet."

The second bit is from Rules Compendium, which clarifies that "Activating a command item takes the same amount of time as the casting time of the spell that the item’s power duplicates." RC at 84. (The same is true of Mental activation, Spell Completion, and Spell Trigger.)

Handwaving away the (comparatively trivial) casting time, this really means you can only activate your Genesis device twice a year, increasing the radius 360' per year. Handwave the math a little more, and the demiplane can grow at the rate of +1' of radius per day.

[Ashtagon]

I'm still missing the line which allows time manipulations for the demiplane. Other posters have focused on this sentence, specifically the highlighted section in blue:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/genesis.htm


The spellcaster determines the environment within the demiplane when he or she first casts genesis, reflecting most any desire the spellcaster can visualize. The spellcaster determines factors such as atmosphere, water, temperature, and the general shape of the terrain. ...

However, that ignores a a key modifying word, most. In this context, the word is acting as a grammatical determiner; and is a somewhat archaic way of saying almost. In other words, that entire sentence is semantically null. The following sentence lists things that can be chosen by the caster, and temporal modifications are absent.

[Stegyre]

I'm still missing the line which allows time manipulations for the demiplane. Other posters have focused on this sentence, specifically the highlighted section in blue:
That's it. It is debated. About all I can add to the reasoning is that a comparison is also made to the psionic version, which explicitly doesn't allow time manipulation: "You can’t manipulate the time trait on your demiplane; its time trait is as the Material Plane (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/genesis.htm)." The reasoning being, "WotC knew how to preclude this when they wanted to." (Rather than the counter-explanation: "WotC realised the problem when drafting the psionic version and fixed it.")

The point is moot, as no one plays "RAW games," and considering the linguistic gymnastics some players will invoke, there isn't really such a thing as winning a RAW debate.

Whether you may alter the time trait of a PC-created demi-plane will depend upon the GM.

EDIT: and for future arguments on the subject, if you want to get fancy and latinate, you can start throwing around terms like Ejusdem generis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expressio_unius_est_exclusio_alterius#Textual) or Expressio unius est exclusio alterius (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expressio_unius_est_exclusio_alterius#Textual). These still won't help you win the argument, but you will look more sophisticated. :smallwink:

[Phelix-Mu]

The part I made bold really does not make sense. How do you know what of the thousands ideas DM's have come up for campaigns do not include what you have stated?

If you take out the accelerated time part Liches don't care about time. Then have the descends of kidnapped humanoids tricked into worshiping the Lich as the high priest of Wee Jas or like. Then just animate the humanoids after they die of old age in the city of the dead. The lich would have a near endless supply of bodies to created undead from, slaying and reanimating them en masse is killing the gold goose so to speak. The Lich is LE not stupidly evil in my example.

Hmm, well if the lich has taken centuries to do this, that is plenty of time for countermeasures to be developed/plot to be discovered and foiled. It is the rare lich that succeeds at even a small portion of their schemes, though the ones that do are quite epic. Give the rest of the world a long time to mess with the plan, then there is a decent chance the plan fails. I was mostly opposed to the accelerated time aspect of the lich's demiplane plot. If the lich wants to do the rest, no problem.

As to protagonist-centric, I find that a complex and detailed campaign world is full of npcs/would-be protagonists. Not to mention that repeatedly campaigning in a campaign world creates a series of protagonists, and the world can only focus on each group so much. Thus, it seems to me that it is largely the story-telling that makes the player characters the center of the action; there were probably a number of people that could have stepped forward to do x to save y, but the story is about the pcs, so we don't hear about the others.

Historically, repetition of established behaviors and logical actions is much more common than people breaking the mold and doing something 100% original. Extending this into a fantasy world where historical time can be arbitrarily vast and magic extends the realm of the possible toward the limits of what can be imagined, and it is very unlikely that some magic-user hasn't tried this before, no matter what this may be.

Picture dozens of generations of elven wizards having hundreds of years to experiment with esoteric spell combinations, and thousands of crazy human necromancers having devoted every waking hour toward some scheme to achieve ultimate power. Picture this forum; eventually, the vast majority of methods for optimizing have been tried. The realities of life tend to expand to fill the realm of the possible as time continues.

This entirely depends on campaign world, though, since a low-magic world or one where the plot includes the pcs pioneering magic development obviously implies that they will have ideas new to that world. My world happens to be both immensely old and have a very high power cap, so crazy schemes have come and gone. Even in core, though, there is fluff to the effect that you aren't the first high-level wizard (Mordenkainen) and someone else probably came up with those 9th level spells you are learning, etc.

[Voidling]

That would be this one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14323930&postcount=47), with slightly more comment two posts further down.

EDIT: To decrease the XP cost substantially, use the psionic Genesis instead (1,000 XP / manifestation).

Some further comments:

It probably makes no sense to try to make this a "continuous" item, and it looks like that would not work by RAW. The first evidence of this is in the spell description, as follows:

Thus, you need to wait 180 days between each casting, as that is the time it takes to grow to "an initial maximum radius of 180 feet."

The second bit is from Rules Compendium, which clarifies that "Activating a command item takes the same amount of time as the casting time of the spell that the item’s power duplicates." RC at 84. (The same is true of Mental activation, Spell Completion, and Spell Trigger.)

Handwaving away the (comparatively trivial) casting time, this really means you can only activate your Genesis device twice a year, increasing the radius 360' per year. Handwave the math a little more, and the demiplane can grow at the rate of +1' of radius per day.

Thanks for pointing that out I, I'll give the Rules Compendium a read and edit my post according.

You might be right about a continuous Genesis item not working, for such a item one would need to work with the DM to blanace it. Their are two way one you casting genesis first does take 180 days, but I the way I read it's second type of casting it takes 7 day "Once the basic demiplane reaches its maximum size, you can continue to cast this spell to enlarge your demiplane, adding another 180 feet of radius to your demiplane each time". I could be wrong of course about the time needed for the second type of casting. Also would the metamagic feat rapid casting help?

RAPID SPELL
RAPID SPELL [METAMAGIC]
You can cast spells with long casting times more quickly. Benefit: Only spells with a casting time greater than 1 standard action can be made rapid. A rapid spell with a casting time of 1 full round can be cast as a standard action. A rapid spell with a casting time measured in rounds can be cast in 1 full round. Rapid spells with casting times measured in minutes can be cast in 1 minute, and rapid spells with casting times measured in hours can be cast in 1 hour. A rapid spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than the spell’s actual level. Special: A spell can be made rapid and quickened only if its original casting time was 1 full round. This feat can be applied to a spell cast spontaneously as long as its original casting time was longer than full round.

[Voidling]

I'm still missing the line which allows time manipulations for the demiplane. Other posters have focused on this sentence, specifically the highlighted section in blue:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/genesis.htm


However, that ignores a a key modifying word, most. In this context, the word is acting as a grammatical determiner; and is a somewhat archaic way of saying almost. In other words, that entire sentence is semantically null. The following sentence lists things that can be chosen by the caster, and temporal modifications are absent.

I could not agree more:smallsmile:, But as I see it, it's people problem and as Stegyre explained in the post below your post people can twist words endlessly and it up to the DM and gaming group to decide the how they want to play make believe with dice and paper.What I wanted to do is lay out all the ideas and options and let people debate how the what their game mechanics to work maturely. Personally I think the psionic version of Genesis is the best, balanced and wording wise.

[Stegyre]

Their are two way one you casting genesis first does take 180 days, but I the way I read it's second type of casting it takes 7 day "Once the basic demiplane reaches its maximum size, you can continue to cast this spell to enlarge your demiplane, adding another 180 feet of radius to your demiplane each time". I could be wrong of course about the time needed for the second type of casting.
No, I don't think that is a correct reading. It looks to me like you are confusing "casting time" (how long the spellcaster is involved with casting the spell) with an effect of the spell (how rapidly it starts expanding the demiplane).

Casting time is set forth in a specific line of the spell description block. It is always one week (barring some shenanigans to change casting time). The spell effect is then set forth in a different section, which provides that for the first 180 days, it grows one foot per day in all directions. (That being the effect of an increase in radius. If I were GMing, I'd say it gives you a spherical region.)

IMHO, the limitation on when it can be cast again is also pretty free of any ambiguity: the spell cannot be cast again until the prior casting has done its 180 feet. Even if you could, RAW does not help you, as each casting only grows the plane at 1'/day, and magical effects do not usually stack with themselves (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm#stackingEffects).


Also would the metamagic feat rapid casting help?

RAPID SPELL
Not by RAW. The feat has the stated effects, no more, no less: "A rapid spell with a casting time of 1 full round can be cast as a standard action. A rapid spell with a casting time measured in rounds can be cast in 1 full round. Rapid spells with casting times measured in minutes can be cast in 1 minute, and rapid spells with casting times measured in hours can be cast in 1 hour."

There's nothing there for one with a casting time measured in days or weeks.

In any case, if my interpretation is correct (and of course I think it is :smallwink:), casting time is not the delay. Again I can only speak for myself, but I'd let a player overlap casting with the final week so as to continuously grow the plane at 1' per day. By RAW, I do not see a way to make it faster.

[Voidling]

Hmm, well if the lich has taken centuries to do this, that is plenty of time for countermeasures to be developed/plot to be discovered and foiled. It is the rare lich that succeeds at even a small portion of their schemes, though the ones that do are quite epic. Give the rest of the world a long time to mess with the plan, then there is a decent chance the plan fails. I was mostly opposed to the accelerated time aspect of the lich's demiplane plot. If the lich wants to do the rest, no problem.

As to protagonist-centric, I find that a complex and detailed campaign world is full of npcs/would-be protagonists. Not to mention that repeatedly campaigning in a campaign world creates a series of protagonists, and the world can only focus on each group so much. Thus, it seems to me that it is largely the story-telling that makes the player characters the center of the action; there were probably a number of people that could have stepped forward to do x to save y, but the story is about the pcs, so we don't hear about the others.

Historically, repetition of established behaviors and logical actions is much more common than people breaking the mold and doing something 100% original. Extending this into a fantasy world where historical time can be arbitrarily vast and magic extends the realm of the possible toward the limits of what can be imagined, and it is very unlikely that some magic-user hasn't tried this before, no matter what this may be.

Picture dozens of generations of elven wizards having hundreds of years to experiment with esoteric spell combinations, and thousands of crazy human necromancers having devoted every waking hour toward some scheme to achieve ultimate power. Picture this forum; eventually, the vast majority of methods for optimizing have been tried. The realities of life tend to expand to fill the realm of the possible as time continues.

This entirely depends on campaign world, though, since a low-magic world or one where the plot includes the pcs pioneering magic development obviously implies that they will have ideas new to that world. My world happens to be both immensely old and have a very high power cap, so crazy schemes have come and gone. Even in core, though, there is fluff to the effect that you aren't the first high-level wizard (Mordenkainen) and someone else probably came up with those 9th level spells you are learning, etc.

I'm really sorry but I still don't get what your trying to explain, I honesty don't want to be sarcastic or rude. Are saying that in reality their is a universal mean average for plot lines IE what we call history. Thus any make believe fictional plot line a DM creates most lay with mean average of bell curve of fluff RP history? Or have I just read to much Terry Pratchett (http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/t/terry_pratchett.html) ?

[Bogardan_Mage]

That's it. It is debated. About all I can add to the reasoning is that a comparison is also made to the psionic version, which explicitly doesn't allow time manipulation: "You can’t manipulate the time trait on your demiplane; its time trait is as the Material Plane (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/genesis.htm)." The reasoning being, "WotC knew how to preclude this when they wanted to." (Rather than the counter-explanation: "WotC realised the problem when drafting the psionic version and fixed it.")
I don't see how that's a counter-explanation, unless you believe the psionic power overwrites the spell (it doesn't). It's an argument for RAI, but I thought we were talking about RAW and no written version of the Genesis spell excludes time traits. The wording of the Genesis power demonstrates that there is no basis to the claim that "it doesn't specifically mention traits, therefore you're not allowed to set traits" because the power only mentions traits to explicitly exclude time traits (not any other kind of planar trait) and is otherwise identical to the spell. The wording of the power is grounds to houserule a similar change to the spell, but it would still be just that, a houserule, because the spell was never printed with that wording. You're absolutely right that it's up the the DM, but if the DM's reasoning is "it doesn't specifically allow you to set planar traits" or "the wording of the psionic power overwrites that of the spell" then this reasoning is faulty.

[Voidling]

The artefact
The artefact will be of a Hex-portal engine design, the design will use six portals Positive, Negative, Earth, Water, Air, and Fire.

The first portal is a one way output portal from the positive energy plane connect to the top of artefact. At the bottom of the artefact a one way input negative energy portal. Positive energy flows out of the first portal in into the second, as there is infinite positive energy and infinite destruction possibility on the negative energy plane one would have an infinite flow of positive energy with out the normal problem of positive energy built up. Both portals have a link aperture flow control ritual, which all ways opens the positive portal first and closes the negative portal last. Any left over positive energy is general good for you and helps the local plants grow, so no need to worry about it.

So far that's just a standard dual portal artefact you say

The four out put dispersal portals of Earth, Water, Air, and Fire are located in the middle of the artefact angled slightly downwards using the positive energy flow to draw element from the four planes. Being dispersal portals elements will be draw randomly from the infinite plans much like a Decanter of Endless Water does not take water from any one location on the plane of water.

In the centre of the artefact is the positive elemental mixing chamber, with the correct calibration of the elemental dispersal portals the desired effect can be archived, earth for example is often calibrated far higher ratio then air. As a catalyst for the four elements to enrich the positive energy stream we use four hops of Limbo Control similar to a ring Limbo Control. Each hop is needed to over ride any elemental surge that might happen when one element try to become dominate while still allowing their infinite combination to enrich the positive energy stream.

The positive energy enriched with elements flows out of the mixing chamber via the draw of the negative energy portal where it interacts with a magic item which is the artefacts focus. The focus harness the magical potential that exists in reality via the spell used in the magic items crafting, no mortal spell caster would ever be able keep up with artefact. A standard Cog matrix assemble from plane of mechanus orbits the focus acting as a stabilising force. With out the Cog matrix assemble the positive energy enriched stream with it's infinite potential would over come the focus ability to creating a new finite reality and thus a wild magic zone would be created at ever greater radio around the artefact. The net effect of an artefact engine is that the spell from the focus is cast with all meta-magic applied continual, but what is created is permanent and alive!

The artefact's focus is a master stroke of arcane design, as long as the magic item is crafted with a spell of the conjuration school (evocation would be a bad idea) and is of continues effect the artefact can be used in all most limitless ways. While the size of the artefact does not matter the load bearing and stress tolerance of the materials used do. Thus the artefact can as small as a tall gnome or as big as a small mage tower.

Example ring of genesis as a focus

How does a hex-portal design differ from a Tri-portal design any why are spells of the evocation school a bad idea.

Take for example Zarack the dominator's design using the base two portal positive/negative flow plus a third portal to the plan of fire. With out other elemental portal to balance out the fire element or the use of a hop of Limbo Control the following happened. He then researched an evocation spell he called “fire storm” he crafted the spell directly into the artefact. So confidant than he now possessed unlimited destructive power on his home world he used it on the first person to oppose his will, which was his postman. The fire storm spell unleashed by the artefact was all that Zarack the dominator could hope for, the fire storm started a mile in diameter and a quarter mile high then grow in diameter by half a mile every six seconds. At first Zarack wards kept him safe until the positive energy stream gave the fire storm spell a life of it's own becoming a living spell fire elemental. Enrage at coming into existence in the harshly cold prime material plane, Burny (the living spell fire elemental) set about consuming any flammable material on the surrounding continuant, just to keep himself from starving/freezing to death. As Burny grow the draw from the plane of fire over came the draw from the negative energy input portal shutting it down. Both other portals shattered and for a short time allowed vast amounts throughput, Burny for a brief six seconds out shone the local star and cover whole planet. Then the portals imploded and with consumable material gone Burny died a cold cold death, oh yes Zarack the dominator and his postman where quite dead at this stage as well. But Burny given live by positive energy became a fire ghost back on the plane of fire and now teachs young fire elemental not to let them self get summon to the material plane lest they share the same fate as him.

Why should artificers not create portal engine artefacts

Zarack the dominator was an artificer, wisdom is a dump stat for them and most if not all artificer have no skills in planer knowledge, they train Knowledge (Nobility) in stead (he's the reason Eberron is not in 7th edition)

[TuggyNE]

Zarack the dominator was an artificer, wisdom is a dump stat for them and most if not all artificer have no skills in planer knowledge, they train Knowledge (Nobility) in stead (he's the reason Eberron is not in 7th edition)

OK, this whole post really puzzled me, perhaps because all the technical details seemed to be completely made up, but this part was the weirdest. What ... is all this?

[Voidling]

OK, this whole post really puzzled me, perhaps because all the technical details seemed to be completely made up, but this part was the weirdest. What ... is all this?

:smallamused: Good thing I did not include kindergarten sing alone song "Burny burns the world" then.

well I'm sorry you did not like it, their are no rules for creating artifact so I tried to make one from magic items and the second part came to me while working on spelling and it made me chuckle - so I added it.

I was a lent a copy of Complete Champion and after looking back at Phelix-Mu posts I had an idea for a back story and time line for why a Lich might create a demiplane with in a d&d setting.

Time line

-4014 Mu'Halatun is born
Mu'Halatun is born 4 thousand years before the present day, becomes a Cleric of Wee Jas and served for 20 or so years
raising in power rapidly (level 17+) he becomes obsessed with death (as is common with followers of Wee Jas)

-3979 becomes a Lich
becomes a Lich to be able to document a first hand account of death (alignments changes from LN to LE)
has a crisis of faith (his new cold logical mind now lacks passion for his faith and alignment shift)
secretly flees the catacomb below his temple to the under dark, where he wars with follows of Nerull to gain greater knowledge of undeath

-3972 creates demiplane
forms plan to regain his connect with his goddess that only makes sense to his new undead mind(feat: heretic of the faith – gains creation domain)
makes demiplane hoping to learn more about live hoping that it would enlighten him about death (used as a petri dish to study live and death)

-3774 starts imports life to study death
starts imports life to study death starting with plants then molds, worms and so on

-3500 starts growing demiplane
grows the demiplane to accommodate new life forms greats cats needed large area to hunt

-1500 starts rescues/imprisoning people
while scrying the prime material plane he rescues/imprisons people when they call out to Wee Jas to rescue them in times of crisis (as an act of worship to Wee Jas)
watches the lives and deaths of human cultures made by the descents of the people he rescued/imprisoned

-1000 stable empire forms
One culture dominate and be come stable then grows rapidly
gains the leader ship feat to help establish his rule and gather of knowledge
has a negative-dominant area created (by wizard cohort) to study (un)death (later becomes the city of the dead)

-994 becomes high priest
sets him self up as high priest to be better study the live-death cycle of human sub cultures

-986 start to form an army of undead
creates rules for civilisation and becomes based on tenant of Wee Jas – fair but Harsh (death sentence common – slows population grow)
start to form an army of undead from the body people dying naturally of old age and sentenced criminals

-790 Starts to form a plans to resolve population growth
starts a yearly state census
Restarts his battles with follows of Nerull in the under dark. In games he farming exp to cast genesis more often.

-50 learns of the deathless state
discovers small amount of information about the Deathless state of existence from people he rescues/imprisons from the prime material plane

-25 creates a positive-dominant area
start experimenting with deathless creatures, but they end in failure
the area will later to be called the city of life
Starts to form a plan to gain info on Deathless state from the material plane

-0 current day

Mu'Halatun power level
From level 17 cleric + lich template up to 26 levels of cleric + lich template. level depends on how much exp he has used to grow his demiplane. Feats: able leaner, heretic of the faith, leadership, Bonus Domain [Epic] (Deathless)

About Mu'Halatun the lich
Like most lichs his personalty was nearly total flash froze at lichdom his obsession remained as the driving force of his existence. While a live Mu'Halatun travelled far wand wide negotiating with old mages to have they work stored in Jasidan librarys and their bodies preserved below temples of the ruby sorceresses when they died. This began his obsession with studying death then post undead he starts an unattainable quest to redeem him self. Thus he studies live to his end becoming anther obsession of his and now after a thousand years as the head of a civilisation this to has become an obsession. All though his alignment is LE the over riding part of his alignment and beliefs are that of a four thousand year old versions of the Jasidan priesthood lawful dogma. Total cold and calculating he sets about any task taking the long term view towards achieving his goal, taking any where between half to a whole decade to plan the destitution of a Nerull enclave for example.

He has had nearly no interaction with the world above the under dark (prime material plane) bar the six seconds or so it take him to planeshift in to rescues/imprisons people from certain death, such as a ship sinking in a storm at sea or freezing to death in middle of winter. He drops them off on an island not far from the main land mass on his demiplanes where local fisher men often go. Wiping the last twelve seconds or so of their memory so as not to burden them with the emotion of gratitude.

Demiplane – The Petri dish
Mu'Halatun demiplane is based on the prime material plane with several land mass near each other, each has a different terrain and climate. Each main land mass is used to study different eco-systems and their death cycles (as Mu'Halatun termed them) with two of the largest now containing cities.

Shape Trait = Self-contained (edges wrap)

The demiplane is a sphere with the land mass on a disc in the middle and sky above and earth blow. A traveller sailing away from the main land masses out to sea will turn up on the opposite side of the land masses. So if travelling north west away from land one will end up on the south east shore. Flying works the same as sailing up to 90% into the sky at which point their travel distance becomes Infinite divisibility (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinite_divisibility). Teleportation could place the cast at the very top of the sphere but solid sky the colour of the elemental plain of air would block travel.

Gravity Trait = normal

Time Trait = Normal

Morphic Trait = Alterable

Can be shaped and changed like the material plane with picks, hammers and shovels ect.

Energy and Elemental Traits = none (see below)

the demiplane has 3 manifest areas negative, positive and astral

Alignment Traits = minor lawful-Aligned

Magic Trait = Normal

Access = via the planeshift spell and similar spells

Plot hocks

Mu'Halatun plans to be brought back to live then become Deathless closing the circle so his aliment can return to LN to be closer to his goddess. Looking for more information about the deathless state he sends his minions on mission on the prime material plane to gather knowledge.

The human population is out growing the petri dish demiplane he needs to find a way to rapidly expand the demiplane or cull the human culture. Mu'Halatun looks into Hex-portal creation engine artefacts or epic spells sending his minions to mission on the material prime plane to gather knowledge.

Mu'Halatun has a vast library documenting knowledge(nature) knowledge(arcane) and knowledge(arcane: necromancy) that gives a + 10 research bonus to any one after taking a week to study their. A random divination could give the answer that Mu'Halatun library is the best or only place to find a question posed by a player.

After ignoring prime material plane for over four thousand years he is horrified to find out the changes that have happen to the present day Jasidan doctrine. He starts planing a holy war to return all worshippers to the correct enlighten path. The difference in doctrine maybe very small for all intend and purposes but to a lich any change would seem huge.

In one of Mu'Halatun many battles with follows of Nerull in the under dark he dropped a planer tuning fork to his demiplane, which hundreds of years later (current day) is sold to one of the players.

[Stegyre]

:Shape Trait = Self-contained (edges wrap)

A traveller sailing away from the main land masses out to sea will turn up on the opposite side of the land masses. So if travelling north west away from land one will end up on the south east shore.
If I'm understanding the description, this will make the plane torus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torus)-shaped: leave the east edge, enter on the west edge (just like the surface of a sphere); leave the north edge, enter on the south edge (unlike the surface of a sphere).

EDIT: BTW, what happens when someone on the demiplane gains flight, and goes up, and up, and up? Where does the sky "wrap" to?