Sorcerer fix?

[barna10]

Ok, let's be frank. As a class, the Sorcerer sucks it big time. For the benefit of a few extra spells per day the sacrifice versatility, have a crappy casting stat, and miss out on bonus feats that the Wizards get. Also, they stop gaining new spells at epic levels.

I know Skip Williams said the Sorcerer class made him sick but others in the design team thought they were a powerful class.

Do any of you compensate sorcerers in any way?

I think the Beguiler, Dread Necro, and Warmage are far superior as long as you don't mind a narrower focus. I'm tempted to give the sorcerer more skill points, bonus feats, or both.

What do you all think?

[Darth Stabber]

Give sorcerer one extra spell known per spell level, 2 more skill points per level, and add some social skills to his skill list. I have seen this fix used before and it makes a difference. That being said it still pales in comparison to wizard, but you can afford some more utility and one or two more spells that are just plain fun as opposed to the precarious balancing act of spell selection which is inherent to the phb version of the class.

[Clistenes]

Ok, let's be frank. As a class, the Sorcerer sucks it big time. For the benefit of a few extra spells per day the sacrifice versatility, have a crappy casting stat, and miss out on bonus feats that the Wizards get. Also, they stop gaining new spells at epic levels.

I know Skip Williams said the Sorcerer class made him sick but others in the design team thought they were a powerful class.

Do any of you compensate sorcerers in any way?

I think the Beguiler, Dread Necro, and Warmage are far superior as long as you don't mind a narrower focus. I'm tempted to give the sorcerer more skill points, bonus feats, or both.

What do you all think?

I think it all depends on the kind of campaign you are playing, If your DM allows you to buy any scroll at the magic shop, the wizard's versatility wins. If he forces you to depend on the spellbooks of slain foes and old scroll found in the hoards of monsters, then the sorcerer can be the equal of he wizard, since he gets the best spells as soon as he can cast them (the wizard has two spells per level he doesn't have to learn from others, the sorcerer gets five, four or three).

It also depends on the type of campaign; if it's combat heavy the sorcerer can have a lot of fun blasting everything all day and using one of his few utility spells (gaseous form, teleport, dimension door, invisibility, true seeing) when required. The wizard, on the other and, has to prepare gaseous form, teleport, dimension door, invisibility, true seeing...etc., just in case he needs them and those are spell slots he can't use for blasting.

If your campaign has less combat and more different kinds of challenges (bypass doorless walls, swim through a flooded cavern, visit the Outer Planes, capture an enemy and turn him/her into something portable and inocuous for easier transport...etc.), then the wizard has no rival.

And anyway, some groups use sorcerers because they don't like a single character solving everything.

Plus, at higher level, the sorcerers can hoard plenty knowstones, runestaffs, eternal wands and scrolls.

[barna10]

I think it all depends on the kind of campaign you are playing, If your DM allows you to buy any scroll at the magic shop, the wizard's versatility wins. If he forces you to depend on the spellbooks of slain foes and old scroll found in the hoards of monsters, then the sorcerer can be the equal of he wizard, since he gets the best spells as soon as he can cast them.

It also depends on the type of campaign; if it's combat heavy the sorcerer can have a lot of fun blasting everything all day and using one of his few utility spells (gaseous form, teleport, dimension door, invisibility, true seeing) when required. The wizard, on the other and, has to prepare gaseous form, teleport, dimension door, invisibility, true seeing...etc. just in case he needs them and those are spell slots he can't use for blasting.

If your campaign has less combat and more different kind oc challenges (bypass doorless walls, swim through a flooded cavern, visit the Outer Planes, capture an enemy and turn him/her into something portable and inocuous for easier transport...etc., then the wizard has no rival.

And anyway, some groups use sorcerers because they don't like a single character solving everything.

Plus, at higher level, the sorcerers can hoard plenty knowstones, runestaffs, eternal wands and scrolls.

I agree from the role-playing standpoint, but my argument is more one of mechanics and game design. I could use the same arguments you made to explain why any class is superior.

Also, after a certain point, a Wizard in a magic draught (ie DM won't let him find spells) can learn any spell he wants (summon creatures to learn from, wish scroll into existence, etc). This is only a delaying tactic and eventually the Wizard will end-up on top again.

[AmberVael]

What do you all think?

Some people will say that the sorcerer could use a little sprucing up to give it interesting features- or at least some features- besides spells. Personally, I've always thought spells were quite interesting enough in terms of variety of abilities, but I can definitely see the appeal of adding more.

In terms of power though, the sorcerer completely kicks ass, and needs no boost whatsoever. You might design the class to make it more interesting... but you definitely don't need to power it up. (Except maybe at the first few levels- I dunno, give it some minor at will abilities and that'll fix it.)

I wouldn't be opposed to allowing it to continue to gain spells at epic levels (similar to the psionic classes), but there is a LOT of stuff in epic that needs changing, and something like that is only a minor detail.

[Amnestic]

Wait, what's wrong with Charisma as a casting stat?

[Darth Stabber]

Wait, what's wrong with Charisma as a casting stat?

Charisma is the worst stat on its own, since all it does is bump social skill rolls. Intelligence adds skill points, wisdom bumps will saves, and both of these have skills they bump as well. Charisma doesn't matter unless you make it matter, everything else has value on its own.

[AmberVael]

Wait, what's wrong with Charisma as a casting stat?

For casting? Nothing.

But of all the mental ability scores- or in fact, of all the ability scores, Charisma does the least. It adds to a few skill checks which you may or may not use, and that's all.

It is therefore the worst casting stat, because the other two have other benefits of note, while Charisma does not. Intelligence adds to skill points and a number of typical casting skills, which is quite useful. Wisdom adds to one of your saves, and some of the more notable and useful skills.

However, it's worth noting that Charisma is one of the abilities that can most easily replace others or augment certain rolls via feats, class features, and other such things. Certain builds can make high charisma very worthwhile (there's a reason people tend to like a paladin dip on sorcerers).

In general though, it's a bit better to have one of the other stats.

[Boci]

Ok, let's be frank. As a class, the Sorcerer sucks it big time. For the benefit of a few extra spells per day the sacrifice versatility, have a crappy casting stat, and miss out on bonus feats that the Wizards get. Also, they stop gaining new spells at epic levels.

I know Skip Williams said the Sorcerer class made him sick but others in the design team thought they were a powerful class.

Do any of you compensate sorcerers in any way?

I think the Beguiler, Dread Necro, and Warmage are far superior as long as you don't mind a narrower focus. I'm tempted to give the sorcerer more skill points, bonus feats, or both.

What do you all think?

Remove the delayed casting, give them escrew material component at first level, a bonus metamagic or hertage feat at 5th level and every 5 levels after that...really depends.

But you are wrong in your assessment of the sorceror. It is one of the most powerful classes in the game (its often weaker than a wizard, but that doesn't say muc). They are more powerful than the advanced casters due to a broader choice of spells, especially from splat (arcane fusion, arcane spell surge, ruin delver's fortune), but even in core the freedom over spell selections means at higher levels the sorceror will be more versatile, and that is often key.

[navar100]

No, it doesn't suck big time. Spontaneous casting is quite helpful and makes metamagic feats a bit easier to use. It's not a tragedy not moving for a round. Some people like to cast the same spells over and over. With enough versatility of spell selection they get by just fine. They don't need to change their spells game day to game day. Wizards are fine too and have their advantages. I'll even give for sake of argument they're "better", but Sorcerers don't suck.

If they have a fault it's that sorcerers have everything to gain and nothing to lose by going into a full progression prestige class. That falls into personal taste as to whether you're enraged by that or don't care. If you want a "fix", try Pathfinder. Using the bloodline method, sorcerers are given class features besides spells. These features vary depending on the bloodline. Personal taste decides which you would prefer. Bloodlines help distinguish sorcerers from each other. Now sorcerers have to give up something significant to go into a prestige class.

One may prefer the wizard. Free metamagic/item creation feats, spells known limited only by what you can find, and the ability to change spells prepared game day to game day are all nice features that contribute to the power of wizards. All hail the mighty wizard. Enjoy it. That does not take away anything from the sorcerer.

[barna10]

I'm not arguing whether the class is powerful or not. ANY class can be powerful in the right situations. I'm talking about the design and offering of the class.

It's sort of like buying a no frills professional truck with a huge engine versus an Escallade. The business vehicle may cost as much as the Escallade and have a more powerful engine, but the Escallade is more attractive and a better buy for most people.

A Warmage can be just as "powerful" as a Sorcerer, so can a Beguiller. An illusion can end a battle just as quick as a few fireballs. Power is subjective.

That's why I'm not arguing power. I'm arguing frills. The Sorcerer needs some options. That's it. Some people have offered some good suggestions. I really like the Eschew Materials idea and upping skill points.

One last time, I NEVER SAID THE SORCERER WASN'T POWERFUL. PLEASE READ WHAT I WROTE!

[Clistenes]

The Exalted Arcanist prestige class loses a caster level, but they gain two extra arcane spells of any level up to the maximum spell evel they can cast (so it's better to enter the class when you are already very high level).

The Archmage prestige class allows you to cast your known spell in different ways, changing the shape of the area and the kind of energy damage, which enhances your versatility.

The bloodline feats from Dragon Magazine 311 allow you to learn one extra spell per level, and nothing prevents you from taking more than one bloodline feat (you can have both elemental and fey ancestors for example). The Mother Cyst feat does the same as the bloodline feats, but it's creepy.

Of course those bloodline feats you take mean metamagic feats you aren't taking, so giving the sorcerer a few bonus metamagic feats would make easier for him to take bloodline feats.

And of course, there is free eschew materials and, if you are feeling really generous, allow to add metamagic without making the casting time longer (at which point all the other players of spellcasters will start to whine).

[Boci]

I'm not arguing whether the class is powerful or not. ANY class can be powerful in the right situations. I'm talking about the design and offering of the class.

A sorceror is like an advanced caster, only they get to choose what, 6 times as many spells as the ACs do, without the school limit. Why do you think the sorceror needs more options than they do?

Wanna play a spontenous caster specializing in transmutation and necromancery? Sorceror. Dreadnecro won't cut it (not much transmuting) and there is no AC for transmutation.

[LTwerewolf]

To fix the charisma as a casting stat problem: Lost traditions. To fix the spells known problem: knowstones.

[barna10]

Sorceror needs options to make them a complete character. For the LAST time. It's not about what the bastard can do on the battlefield.

[Boci]

Sorceror needs options to make them a complete character. For the LAST time. It's not about what the bastard can do on the battlefield.

Sorcerors are already complete character: they are people which innate arcane talent, but who never the less have to spend a lot of time cultivating it and thus has little time to develope skills (hence the lack of skill points).

What's confusing me if that you cite the advanced casters as being superior, when only one of them has more skill points. What does the dreadnecromancer and warmage habe that the sorceror doesn't that has nothing to with the battlefield?

Also, hungarian?

[navar100]

Ok, let's be frank. As a class, the Sorcerer sucks it big time. For the benefit of a few extra spells per day the sacrifice versatility, have a crappy casting stat, and miss out on bonus feats that the Wizards get. Also, they stop gaining new spells at epic levels.

I know Skip Williams said the Sorcerer class made him sick but others in the design team thought they were a powerful class.

Do any of you compensate sorcerers in any way?

I think the Beguiler, Dread Necro, and Warmage are far superior as long as you don't mind a narrower focus. I'm tempted to give the sorcerer more skill points, bonus feats, or both.

What do you all think?

Yes, you're talking about PWER!

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

1. Ancestral Relic feat (BoED)
2. Make it a custom Runestaff (MIC p224)
3. When the party would sell junk loot for half value, buy it out of the party pool for that price. You get a portion of that back when the cash gets split. Sacrifice the full value of that junk loot into your relic. You're now upgrading it for less than half price.
4. You can even switch what spells it contains whenever you upgrade it, as the item's shape and its enchantment's end result not exceeding the level cap or your invested sum is all that matters.

My group gives Sorcerers bonus feats at 1, 5, 10, 15, and 20. They get Eschew Materials or Draconic Heritage at 1st, and any metamagic or draconic feat they qualify for at 5, 10, 15, and 20.

[barna10]

Yes, you're talking about PWER!

How exactly? I'm talking about options. Options does not equal power. Sorry. If it did, none of you would be arguing about how powerful the Sorcerer is. Illogical.

[Boci]

How exactly? I'm talking about options. Options does not equal power. Sorry. If it did, none of you would be arguing about how powerful the Sorcerer is. Illogical.

I'm sorry to keep repeating this, but I'm confused. You say the sorceror needs more options, citing the warmage, dread necromancer and beguiler as superior examples of the concept. But, apart from the beguiler's extra experience, what options do those classes have that the sorceror doesn't? Doesn't the sorceror have more options, due to the free reigh they have over their spell selection?

[barna10]

Sorcerors are already complete character: they are people which innate arcane talent, but who never the less have to spend a lot of time cultivating it and thus has little time to develope skills (hence the lack of skill points).

What's confusing me if that you cite the advanced casters as being superior, when only one of them has more skill points. What does the dreadnecromancer and warmage habe that the sorceror doesn't that has nothing to with the battlefield?

Also, hungarian?

First, not Hungarian. Some Czech, but no Hungarian.

Now, I never said the Advanced Caster are superior, just that the classes are designed better. Whether they are more powerful or not is subjective. Arguably, the Beguiler could be one of the most powerful characters in the game if it can get the drop on someone. Likewise, the Sorcerer can be amazing (even while being the most bland character class), but it's not all about power.

Lastly, the Dread Necro has MANY tricks that aren't battlefield related. All one has to do is look at level 20 of the class, Lich Transformation. What idiot strives for immortality as a Lich and then runs to the battlefield to risk his life? The point of the class is not to raise an army! Granted it can do that, but it's really about becoming a Lich.

Even if you want to talk about power, having more ammo does not make you more powerful. Maybe I just play on a different level or something, I don't see it.

As a DM, I always have the enemies act to their appropriate level of intelligence. That means that after 10th level or so, just about everything has at least an average human IQ. If that Sorcerer with 15 billion spells roasts the CR 12 Goblin hoard with a fireball, the CR 12 Goblin hoard either swarms the Sorcerer or runs and hides and figures out a way to kill the Sorcerer in his sleep. I can't even imagine an instance where a Sorcerer is able to control the game and be the powerhouse. Mainly because I tailor the game to my players and the characters they choose. If they get powerful and can't be challenged on the battlefield, then I challenge them in other ways.

On the other hand, if they play a Sorcerer I usually take pity on them and let them get some spells off so they aren't sitting back and letting the other characters with more options monopolize play time. I usually throw them a bone and let them face an idiot crowd that groups themselves just right to all be roasted by a fireball just so he doesn't cry himself to sleep.

[barna10]

I'm sorry to keep repeating this, but I'm confused. You say the sorceror needs more options, citing the warmage, dread necromancer and beguiler as superior examples of the concept. But, apart from the beguiler's extra experience, what options do those classes have that the sorceror doesn't? Doesn't the sorceror have more options, due to the free reigh they have over their spell selection?

I guess it all depends on the type of game your playing. If it's all about combat, then a Sorcerer may be just fine. The games I run aren't like that nor will I play in a game like that. In the games I run, you can have every spell in the book and you'll probably die if you took no ranks in Swim.

Also, Beguilers are much more powerful than any Sorcerer, in the right circumstances. Being able to overcome spell resistance and can a higher spell DC than most other casters. A sneaky Beguiler could Dominate that Sorcerer a make him kill himself with his own spells without the Sorcerer ever knowing it happened. Or he could force him to waste all his spells on trying to kill an Illusionary Hoard of Dragons. Either way, more spells per day does not equal more power.

[Boci]

First, not Hungarian. Some Czech, but no Hungarian.

Okay, I asked because barna is hungarian for brown, but words are often shared.


Lastly, the Dread Necro has MANY tricks that aren't battlefield related.

Such as? You've got the infinite healing trick and...? Lichdom doesn't kick in until level 20, and even then, its a set of bonuses that aren't tricks.


As a DM, I always have the enemies act to their appropriate level of intelligence. That means that after 10th level or so, just about everything has at least an average human IQ. If that Sorcerer with 15 billion spells roasts the CR 12 Goblin hoard with a fireball, the CR 12 Goblin hoard either swarms the Sorcerer or runs and hides and figures out a way to kill the Sorcerer in his sleep. I can't even imagine an instance where a Sorcerer is able to control the game and be the powerhouse.

What if they are flying, invisible, spamming sumons? Its going to take time to chip away at a horde, but what can they do back to the sorceror? In open terrain this could be risky, especially if they don't yet know teleport, but with cover/other terrain features they should be able to withdraw once the durations of their spells begins to expire.

And what's the fighter going to do that's better? What about the warmage?


I usually throw them a bone and let them face an idiot crowd that groups themselves just right to all be roasted by a fireball just so he doesn't cry himself to sleep.

No one said sorceror has to be blasters. If you take energy substitution you can be a blaster with just a couple of spells learnt, giving them plenty of spells for other options, like the above mentioned utility of flight and invisibility, a good summon one, and there should still be room for haste for some party buffing and some out of combat spells.


A sneaky Beguiler could Dominate that Sorcerer a make him kill himself with his own spells without the Sorcerer ever knowing it happened. Or he could force him to waste all his spells on trying to kill an Illusionary Hoard of Dragons. Either way, more spells per day does not equal more power.

The sorceror gains access to all the spells mentioned above, and can choose from a far wider list. They may end up with less spells overall, but they will have some options for when charms and illusions don't cut it, which the beguiler will find harder to replicate.

[barna10]

Yes, the Sorcerer can choose from a wider list, but isn't than argument to say a Wizard is more powerful, not a Sorcerer? Also, the Beguiler get's UMD as a class skill so that whole variety argument is out the door. The Beguiler can come to battle with an infinite array of magic devices to confound and destroy the boring Sorcerer.

Name one ability a Sorcerer gets that is as cool or powerful as the Beguiler's Cloaked Casting and Surprise casting?

The Dread Necro gets Mass Harm. Tell me that isn't one of the coolest spells ever (especially when it heals all his buddies in the process).

Sorry, Sorcerers don't hold a candle to other classes.

It reminds of the song, "Anything you can do I can do better, anything you can do I can do better than you"

[nedz]

Sorcerer 1 > Wizard 1

OK, Sorcerer 2 is a bit of a rubbish level, and Wizards pull away from level 3 upwards, but the class is the poster child for Tier 2

I don't think that they need fixing really though it is a bit sickening that Wizards get bonus feats, but then, Wizards.

In the right hands they can be extremely flexible, which means power BTW.

[Boci]

Yes, the Sorcerer can choose from a wider list, but isn't than argument to say a Wizard is more powerful, not a Sorcerer?

Why would one exclude the other? A wizard has more options than a sorceror, which has more options than an advanced caster.


Also, the Beguiler get's UMD as a class skill so that whole variety argument is out the door. The Beguiler can come to battle with an infinite array of magic devices to confound and destroy the boring Sorcerer.

UMD is expensive, and the DC of the spells is going to be lower, as is the caster level. Plus success is not guaranteed, since for scrolls its DC: 20 + minimum caster level.


Name one ability a Sorcerer gets that is as cool or powerful as the Beguiler's Cloaked Casting and Surprise casting?

A spell list as versatile as this for which they don't have to pay anything. All day flight + contingency? Yes please.

1. Magic missile, colourspray, greace, silent image, mage armour
2. Glitter dust, summon swarm, gust of wind, wind wall, invisibility
3. Dispel magic, haste, fireball, summon monster 3
4. Enervate, dimension door, polymorph
5. Dominate person, overland flight
6. contingency


The Dread Necro gets Mass Harm. Tell me that isn't one of the coolest spells ever (especially when it heals all his buddies in the process).

Its cool, but that doesn't mean they have a lot of options (and mass harm is primarily a battlefield spell, so again, what can a dread necromancer do off the battlefield that's so great?). And what if the enemies are undead, or immune to death affects?

[AmberVael]

Name one ability a Sorcerer gets that is as cool or powerful as the Beguiler's Cloaked Casting and Surprise casting?
The only features a sorcerer gets are spells, therefore, looking into sorcerer specific spells...

Arcane Fusion, Arcane Spellsurge, Wings of Cover, Wings of Flurry.
All of those rock.

Other things to consider- Sorcerer doesn't really need UMD, because they can use wands and scrolls from the sorc/wiz list without a check, which gives them access to a very broad range of abilities without any investment. UMD, with investment, can do more than that... but the costs involved in it mean that probably won't notably outshine a sorcerer's innate capability there.


I prefer not to get into detail wars, so I'll leave the specific counters there, but if you pick a proper spell list for the sorcerer, they can have a very notable range of powers, which is really why most people will argue them as more powerful than Warmage, Beguiler, and Dread Necromancer. Each of those three classes has a very obvious and thematic limit to their powers, but a sorcerer can mix and match any spells they desire- and that ability really makes them a much more versatile force. Each of the three focused classes has more spells, but those spells have far more overlap between them. The sorcerer, however, can have very differentiated spells, thus gaining the maximum value from each one. In a situation where an illusion would be useful, a beguiler might be better to have than a sorcerer, and when you need necromancy, a dread necromancer would be better than a sorcerer, but if you ask a dread necromancer for an illusion, or a beguiler for necromancy, they can't do that. A sorcerer, however, can.

That's the strength of a sorcerer. And, as you very correctly note, that's the strength of a wizard. A wizard generally IS regarded as more powerful than a sorcerer- but the sorcerer is more powerful than the focused classes.


Edit: To get somewhat back to topic though, I want to echo the suggestion to look at the Pathfinder sorcerer. They added some neat stuff.

A few other thoughts of my own:
1) A lot of people have mentioned giving the sorcerer bonus feats. Adding to that idea, I would suggest offering up to the sorcerer bonus Reserve Magic feats, which really would fit quite nicely with how their magic is explained and works. Perhaps even give them abilities to power reserve magic feats when they don't have appropriate slots available.

2) You might give the sorcerer a small number of at will spells from a carefully chosen list. Start them off with one or two at will cantrips, and as they get higher in level, give them one or more 1st level spells, then maybe gradually up to 2nd and 3rd. Definitely make a limited list though- certain spells at will can be dangerous.

3) If the second option seems a little too dangerous to you, you might consider giving them abilities that were already balanced to be at will- invocations! Sorcerers already share a lot of thematics with the invocation based classes, why not give them a very small quantity? Maybe they can start with a minor eldritch blast just so they have something cooler than a crossbow, and slowly pick up some others?

I like at will abilities, can you tell? :smalltongue:

[barna10]

I'll have to check out the Pathfinder Sorcerer, thanks!

[Silentone98]

I'll put in my two cents on this... as a relatively inexperienced D&D gamer, take it with a grain of salt.

In a campaign I am running,.. one of my players needed help making a character. Okay... So I worked with her and she ended up with a Sorceress, with the class alternative of giving one one spell slot of her highest level in exchange for 2 HP/level. (she was afraid of dying)

Well... she eventually wanted a new character because quite frankly, she is NOT a caster.. She would freeze up ingame without knowing what to do. >.>
She is using a psionic monk now,... if all else fails, punch it. Simple enough for ya? lol

Well, the sorceress I kept as an NPC, it was a nice character. THE most powerful character in the group actually, she just didnt know how to play it.
Currently the party sits at level 6, and she has the most HP in the group, 2 companions(a familiar and wild cohort feat) and just recently can cast fiery burst reserve feat indefinately to conserve her spells.
She is far from optimized, but in comparison to what you typically see in a group, the sorcorer is NOT the first on my list to pick on for being under powered
The archer in this group wanted a test fight against her to see how his new build worked... the sorceress in unarmed and ungeared while he had started with a few things.
He climbs a tree to hide and try to snipe her, she summons a snake that poisons and CON damages him, and then finishes him off with a shocking grasp sent thru her familiar while she hides the whole time behind another tree. Her wolf never even came into the picture. All this while the tree is burning down around him from an earlier scorching ray.
Sorceress underpowered? in comparison to wizard, yes. Otherwise, no.

Sorcerers in my campaign get eskew materials for free, that seems pretty common. I would stronly 'consider' allowing them one extra spell known at any given level,.. but no more than that.

[SowZ]

Sorcerer doesn't need a bump, wizard needs to be brought down. Fluff-wise Sorcerer works and it has options to make it a good choice over Cleric, Druid, Dread Necro, etc. It just... isn't a choice above the Wizard. One class being insanely powerful isn't a good reason to bring ANOTHER class up to that level. Sorcerer works well at its job and all of it's weaknesses are reasonable. It is still so superior to most other classes that bumping it up is bad for game balance. I know you aren't comparing it to martial classes, but it is a consideration in boosting a class. Wizard nerf=simpler. Sorcerer has plenty of bags of goodies.

If you are an optimizer, I daresay Charisma could be the 'best' stat.

[TypoNinja]

I donnou, I feel like the designers over-valued 'spontaneous' as a mechanic.

Look at the Favored soul. I love it as an idea, but the execution we got is just plain heinous. No turn undead, delayed spells, and not SAD anymore, and no domains, in exchange for spontaneous.

Sorc's got similar treatment compared to a wizard. Crappy casting stat, delayed spells, no feats, no specialization options (or the AFC's you trade it for), and of course shafted for metamagic.

What is traded is not worth what is gained, the only reason its not more of a problem is that any caster is by default a superior option and you are just comparing levels of awesome instead of suck or not.

[Silentone98]

What is traded is not worth what is gained, the only reason its not more of a problem is that any caster is by default a superior option and you are just comparing levels of awesome instead of suck or not.

I agree with this somewhat,.. I also agree with that guy that said the other class's need to be brought down a notch... not others bumped up.

Bumping up creates even more problems.. You fix one, but many others now pale in comparison.
Wizard, cleric, druid,... these class'es need to be bumped down... not other class's bumped to their level.

as the class by Tier list points out... these class's can do pretty much anything, yet other classes, including sorcorer, ends up bring specialized to some degree, a master in their area of expertise but otherwise pretty average..

[Spuddles]

I think the number of spells per day sorcerers get isn't really enough. At first glance it looks like a 50% increase over wizards, but if you include bonuses from high ability scores, it's only 30%-40% more, depending on level of attribute optimization. Once you include domain/specialist/focused specialist, the sorcerer loses the advantage.