Archmage vs Loremaster

[Story]

Hi, I'm new to D&D but I've been reading a lot of wizard optimization guides online. One thing that I am confused by though is why Loremaster is considered a average PRC while Archmage is considered really awesome.

Archmage has a couple nice abilities, but they require you to permanently give up high level spell slots. And of those, the only ones that seem possibly worthwhile Mastery of Shaping, Spell Power, and Spell Like Ability. On the other hand Loremaster is gives lots of minor bonuses with no drawbacks, other than losing the Wizard bonus feats that you'd have to give up for Archmage anyway. Save bonuses, an extra 1st and 2nd level spellslot, free identifies, extra skillpoints, and even the ability to learn Druidic if you want to for some reason. Plus it synergizes somewhat with Parognostic Apostle.

So why is Archmage considered so good? Are the High Arcanas really that powerful?

[Alleran]

Archmage has a couple nice abilities, but they require you to permanently give up high level spell slots. And of those, the only ones that seem possibly worthwhile Mastery of Shaping, Spell Power, and Spell Like Ability. On the other hand Loremaster is gives lots of minor bonuses with no drawbacks, other than losing the Wizard bonus feats that you'd have to give up for Archmage anyway. Save bonuses, an extra 1st and 2nd level spellslot, free identifies, extra skillpoints, and even the ability to learn Druidic if you want to for some reason. Plus it synergizes somewhat with Parognostic Apostle.

So why is Archmage considered so good? Are the High Arcanas really that powerful?
Mastery of Shaping: Consider a regular antimagic field. Normally this can hurt the party just as much as the targets. Not so, because you can now shape it to ignore your party members and create a 5-foot square they keep all their abilities in while ripping everybody else to shreds. Or Maw of Chaos, for which you no longer have to worry about friendly fire.

Spell Power: Because increasing your caster level is never a bad thing.

Archmage SLA: You give up a 5th level slot and a slot of the appropriate level to cast the spell you picked 2/day. So you give up a 5th and a 9th, and you are casting Time Stop twice per day. You've basically not only gotten a discount on the "spell slot" you're casting Time Stop from (a 5th), but while the ability does have rules for material components and XP costs, I don't think the same applies to focus components. Which would allow things like Shapechange, because the SLA ignores the focus component, and since there's no material component, you're good to go. And, you know, Shapechange 2/day for a 5th and a 9th spell slot. What's not to like?

[navar100]

You could go into Loremaster, finish it, then go into Archmage and enjoy both prestige classes. Now that's a wizard!

[Story]

So you can still cast through an AM field? Does that mean others can cast at you too? Or is the AM field only for summoning and then retreating inside?

Also, how do you tell when something is an untyped bonus? Is it whenever a type is not mentioned?

Also, the required skill ranks mean that Loremaster requires level 7, right?

[Boci]

So you can still cast through an AM field? Does that mean others can cast at you too? Or is the AM field only for summoning and then retreating inside?

No they can cast through it too, but since its your tactics, you will be the one with the spells best suited for such a tactics.


Also, how do you tell when something is an untyped bonus? Is it whenever a type is not mentioned?

Yes


Also, the required skill ranks mean that Loremaster requires level 7, right?

Yeah.

[mucco]

Hi, I'm new to D&D but I've been reading a lot of wizard optimization guides online. One thing that I am confused by though is why Loremaster is considered a average PRC while Archmage is considered really awesome.

Archmage has a couple nice abilities, but they require you to permanently give up high level spell slots. And of those, the only ones that seem possibly worthwhile Mastery of Shaping, Spell Power, and Spell Like Ability. On the other hand Loremaster is gives lots of minor bonuses with no drawbacks, other than losing the Wizard bonus feats that you'd have to give up for Archmage anyway. Save bonuses, an extra 1st and 2nd level spellslot, free identifies, extra skillpoints, and even the ability to learn Druidic if you want to for some reason. Plus it synergizes somewhat with Parognostic Apostle.

So why is Archmage considered so good? Are the High Arcanas really that powerful?

Well, you judge PrCs by what you pay to enter, and what they give you. The "optimization" point if view presumes that only abilities useful in a fight are in fact useful.

Loremaster: asks for two knowledges, which is not a big expense as you're having those anyway, and four feats. One of them is pure rubbish. The other three.. might be redundant. Feats are a big part of a build, so it is quite a sizeable expense to get into the class. Moreover, by not doing 10 levels of Wizard, you lose out on two more feats. Quite the feat loss! A Loremaster 10 will have on average four less useful feats than a straight wizard. What does he get?

Well, for once, two more skill points per level. Not bad. The list is also very nice with Speak Language and UMD. Skill points are nice. He then gains Bardic Knowledge (nice), two bonus languages (meh, I have another class feature that gives me those anyway), two SLAs of spells he could cast (meh), and five bad-to-decent feats basically. Now, realistically a wizard wouldn't want to spend a feat on option 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7. The spell slots aren't that great at such a high level too - you'll never cast those! So, the whole "secret" thing boils down to one (delayed) feat, a couple bad class features, and some bonus on saves probably.

Best features of Loremaster, in order of usefulness: Bardic Knowledge, skill points, a feat, two low-level slots, a +2 on will and fort saves, and other very minor things. Is it worth four feats you're giving up? Eh... maybe?

Let's take a look at Archmage. It's 5 levels long and asks you for three feats of which you will likely use about one. Which means an entry fee of about three feats to me. The other requirements are something you should have anyway.
Benefits: Archmage has Search on its list. not that bad, but probably not worth anything to you. As Alleran said, Mastery of Shaping and Spell Power are two very very powerful things that will be far more useful to you than Bardic Knowledge. Another very strong ability is Arcane Reach, as it allows many spells to be MM'ed with Permanent Spell. Even Arcane Fire is decent at low-op. You do lose spell slots, but you are going to have tons of those. It is a bit of a loss, but not that much.

So, in the end, Archmage is very good for all ends of the optimization spectrum. You pay a price to enter it, but it's not as high a price than Loremaster, and you get some very juicy things out of it.

[Story]

Are metamagic and item creation feats that bad? It doesn't seem like too much of a price to pay. And you get back the wasted knowledge focus feat after two levels anyway, though I guess that's two levels you have to go without.

[INoKnowNames]

Are metamagic and item creation feats that bad? It doesn't seem like too much of a price to pay. And you get back the wasted knowledge focus feat after two levels anyway, though I guess that's two levels you have to go without.

Unless you're actively using that Metamagic and have ways to reduce it, a bunch of Metamagic Feats are a bit of a waste... and Item Creation means you're usually weaker due to leveling up slower and such than your party is.

[Story]

If you have a +0 metamagic feat like Invisible Spell, is there any reason to not prepare every single spell with it?

[Tvtyrant]

Unless you're actively using that Metamagic and have ways to reduce it, a bunch of Metamagic Feats are a bit of a waste... and Item Creation means you're usually weaker due to leveling up slower and such than your party is.

This is completely untrue. I disagree. If you fall behind your party due to crafting you will be exactly as strong (the items make up the difference in strength) but you will gain XP faster than your allies. The line "XP is a river" is meant to convey this.

[Boci]

If you have a +0 metamagic feat like Invisible Spell, is there any reason to not prepare every single spell with it?

A few. You don't want to needlessly reveal that ability. Your party might apreciate seeing the wall of stone you have summoned, and it can lead to the enemy underestimating you, leading to a fight you could have avoided through simple show of force.

[Story]

What happens if you do Invisible Obscuring Mist? Does it just do nothing? What about Glitterdust?

[ericgrau]

Archmage requires 7th level slots. By then most 6th level and lower slots are perfectly expendable. And the abilities are extremely nice.

Loremaster is ok for a wizard but unlike archmage it's horrible for a sorcerer. The pre-reqs are too hefty for a sorcerer to meet. A little bit of a save bonus or bardic knowledge can't compare to switching a spell's energy type when cast to bypass any resistances. Or shaping it to avoid allies. Or boosting your caster level. Which doesn't help much for some spells but makes a huge difference on others. The SLA is actually one of the weaker abilities for a typical wizard but there are a lot of tricks that can exploit it.

[Boci]

What happens if you do Invisible Obscuring Mist?

People with see invisibility get annoyed why others laugh. So yeah, thats a major weakness I forgot to mention, but also gives a interesting situational use over the visible kind.


What about Glitterdust?

They'd presumably still have to save or be blinded, but you'd lose the benefit of it revealing invisible creatures and making hide harder.

[Eldariel]

The biggest use of Loremaster is frankly getting 4+Int skill points and Use Magic Device in class. The latter is why I'd always get at least one level of Loremaster on Wizards; Use Magic Device allows emulating other classes' spellcasting to activate items such as Beads of Karma from Strand of Prayer Beads, and off-class Wands and such. The skill is awesome and it's the primary gain from entering Loremaster.

Now, Archmagus on the other hand gains a bunch of really powerful things:
- Spell-Like Ability converts lower level spell slot into up to 9th level slot. You can trade 1 5th and 1 9th level slot for 2 castings of a 9th level slot. Which is...kind of a big deal since 9th level slots are kinda strong.
- Arcane Reach is great for casting really powerful touch range stuff. First of all, the check becomes a ranged touch attack as opposed to melee touch attack so your Dex bonus makes hitting much easier (Wizards rarely have good Strength). Second, you obviously don't need to move as close to cast these spells keeping you safer and giving you greater tactical versatility. Good reasons to get Arcane Reach include Plane Shift's offensive uses (Plane Shift enemies to hostile planes where they die, such as Positive Energy Plane), Otto's Irresistible Dance (no-save enemy's disabled for a bunch of rounds; only real protection is Mind Blank), Teleport (party utility wise, no need to touch every ally), and so on. Spectral Hand does similar stuff for lower level spells but obviously, it's a waste of an action to cast it and it's got spell level limit so Arcane Reach is just better in every way.
- Mastery of Shaping is of near-limitless utility. Makes Wall of Force closer to Wall of Stone in shapeability, improves said Wall of Stone, stuff like Solid Fog or area Greater Dispel Magic becomes much more reliable and you can leave open paths or whatever should you so desire to funnel enemies or whatever, it's just insanely useful.
- Spell Power; there are only few ways to improve your caster level in Core. Said caster level is kind of a big deal, improving some of your best spells (hello, Gate/Shapechange!), making things you cast harder to dispel and making everything last longer.

[Story]

The sleight of hand class skill helps in fulfilling the requirements for some skill tricks, but the loss of all knowledges as class skills is a big hit.

I found this quote about Fatespinners and was a little confused. Does this mean that each time you take a prestige class, class skills from your existing classes are no longer class skills? Can you take another level in the old class to get them back? I'm confused.

[Endarire]

In 3.5, a skill is only a class skill (or not) for that level. If you go Wizard1/Warblade1/Wizard+1, then your Wizard skills are class skills for levels 1 and 3 and your Warblade skills are class skills for level 2. If there are any overlapping class skills, they're class skills for all 3 levels.

[Story]

So basically, the skillpoints you get from leveling up can be applied to class skills in the class you took at that level without penalty?

Also, another confusing quote about Divine Oracle.


and the bonus spells you get do not appear on the wizard's spell list.

Divine Oracle says "The character gains the granted power associated with the domain (+2 caster level for divination spells), and can choose the spells in that domain as her daily domain spells.", which seems to imply that it's useless for spellcasters that don't get daily (cleric) domain spells. Does this really mean that Wizards can cast Cleric divination spells?

[Kelb_Panthera]

This is completely untrue. I disagree. If you fall behind your party due to crafting you will be exactly as strong (the items make up the difference in strength) but you will gain XP faster than your allies. The line "XP is a river" is meant to convey this.

Just to really hammer the notion home;

If you put them to good use, the crafting feats can be some of the most powerful feats in the game. They are, however, very DM reliant since the ability to create custom items requires DM approval and the DM has to give you the down-time to actually make stuff.

If you can use them though, the crafting feats get you exactly what you want at half-price. The price reduction means that you'll usually get them earlier than you could otherwise too.

Metamagic, minus reduction tricks, works better on a sorcerer, IMO, than on a wizard, but it has its uses even then. Extend is nice for buffs and widen can help AoE's hit more targets, just from the SRD.

[Eldariel]

I found this quote about Fatespinners and was a little confused. Does this mean that each time you take a prestige class, class skills from your existing classes are no longer class skills? Can you take another level in the old class to get them back? I'm confused.

Basically, class skills work on "level"-basis. Whatever is a class skill for the class you're taking on any given level determines how you can spend your skill points on that particular level.

Note, however, if a skill has been a class skill for any of your classes, your max ranks in that skill are forevermore 3+Character Level. This whole leveling-stuff just means which skills cost you 1 vs. 2 skill points per 1 skill rank (in other words, which skills you can purchase as class skills vs. as cross-class skills).


Metamagic, minus reduction tricks, works better on a sorcerer, IMO, than on a wizard, but it has its uses even then. Extend is nice for buffs and widen can help AoE's hit more targets, just from the SRD.

Well, there's also the full-round cast time limitation which restricts you a lot (can't move to avoid melee-types or take cover while using metamagic as Sorcerer, Quicken Spell isn't open at all, etc.).

[Kelb_Panthera]

I found this quote about Fatespinners and was a little confused. Does this mean that each time you take a prestige class, class skills from your existing classes are no longer class skills? Can you take another level in the old class to get them back? I'm confused.

It's like this. On any given level you can spend your skill-points 1:1 on the class-skills for the class you took at that level. Skills that are cross-class for that level are purchased at 2:1.

If the skill was ever a class-skill for any of your classes, you can put points in it until your total ranks are equal to your level +3, regardless of whether you're paying 1 point per rank or 2 at this particular level. If it has never been a class-skill for any of your classes, the cap is 1/2*(level +3.)

That's it.

There're tricks to get around these costs and limits, but that's how it works on the basic level.

[Story]

Ok, I get the class skill thing already. You don't need to explain it three times.

One other thing: Would it be worth getting a level of Geometer and scribe a couple of spellglpyhs for emergencies? It requires a bunch of useless and cross class skills to enter, but it doesn't require any feats.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Basically, class skills work on "level"-basis. Whatever is a class skill for the class you're taking on any given level determines how you can spend your skill points on that particular level.

Note, however, if a skill has been a class skill for any of your classes, your max ranks in that skill are forevermore 3+Character Level. This whole leveling-stuff just means which skills cost you 1 vs. 2 skill points per 1 skill rank (in other words, which skills you can purchase as class skills vs. as cross-class skills).



Well, there's also the full-round cast time limitation which restricts you a lot (can't move to avoid melee-types or take cover while using metamagic as Sorcerer, Quicken Spell isn't open at all, etc.).

Those restrictions are core-only restrictions. PHB2 can remove them a few times per day from level one, and the rapid-metamagic feat can eliminate them altogether later on. The biggest advantage a wizard has over a sorcerer in metamagic use outside of core is the ability to stack them to high-heavan for next to no cost for truly prodigious displays of magical force.

(note: didn't cut the skill thing because I'm working from a wii and mass deletion is a pain.)

[Eldariel]

Ok, I get the class skill thing already. You don't need to explain it three times.

Sorry. I'm fairly certain all those posts were written simultaneously, unaware of others. That's just the nature of forums; stuff like that happens.


Those restrictions are core-only restrictions. PHB2 can remove them a few times per day from level one, and the rapid-metamagic feat can eliminate them altogether later on. The biggest advantage a wizard has over a sorcerer in metamagic use outside of core is the ability to stack them to high-heavan for next to no cost for truly prodigious displays of magical force.

Aye, but even then it's an extra feat tax and Rapid Metamagic is level 9 earliest IIRC. And Sorcerers aren't exactly swimming in feats; either way, it takes effort to get around it.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Sorry. I'm fairly certain all those posts were written simultaneously, unaware of others. That's just the nature of forums; stuff like that happens.



Aye, but even then it's an extra feat tax and Rapid Metamagic is level 9 earliest IIRC. And Sorcerers aren't exactly swimming in feats; either way, it takes effort to get around it.

The ACF just requires giving up the mighty familiar. It's a huge cost but it's probably worth it. The feat isn't available before 9, but it's as good or better than a lot of options that could go in its place if you're sitting on a metamagic or two anyway.

Even without those options, an arcanist that needs to move after about level 6, isn't a caster that's doing a very good job of being an arcanist. Skillfully built gishes not withstanding.

[Eldariel]

The ACF just requires giving up the mighty familiar. It's a huge cost but it's probably worth it.

...do you truly not know how powerful a familiar is? It basically doubles your actions per round around level ~10, can share personal spells and that's without even going into Improved Familiar and getting access to cross-class spells or such. Not to mention, the ACF is Int-based so it is indeed only few uses per day.

[Kelb_Panthera]

...do you truly not know how powerful a familiar is? It basically doubles your actions per round around level ~10, can share personal spells and that's without even going into Improved Familiar and getting access to cross-class spells or such. Not to mention, the ACF is Int-based so it is indeed only few uses per day.

I actually am aware that a dedicated familiar master can pimp his little buddy into a true monster, but that's a matter of investment on the same or even a higher level than metamagic use.

A few metamagicks a day can tide you over until you can pick up rapid metamagic. There's also the sudden metamagicks, and an argument to be made that having the ACF will allow the sorcerer to use a quicken metamagic rod.

The basic familiar, as described in the sidebar in the PHB, isn't anything to be upset over losing.

[Eldariel]

I actually am aware that a dedicated familiar master can pimp his little buddy into a true monster, but that's a matter of investment on the same or even a higher level than metamagic use.

A few metamagicks a day can tide you over until you can pick up rapid metamagic. There's also the sudden metamagicks, and an argument to be made that having the ACF will allow the sorcerer to use a quicken metamagic rod.

The basic familiar, as described in the sidebar in the PHB, isn't anything to be upset over losing.

Simple Imbue Familiar with Spell Ability or just ranking UMD allows for some ravens to do much of your lower level casting needs free of actions, and they have their swift actions to boot.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Simple Imbue Familiar with Spell Ability or just ranking UMD allows for some ravens to do much of your lower level casting needs free of actions, and they have their swift actions to boot.

Imbue with spell ability isn't particularly impressive on its own and a raven UMD'ing a wand is a debateable.

Doing a badass familiar is definitely doable, but it's a similar level of investment to making effective use of metamagic.

I honestly don't have an outright preference for either one, so I don't advocate one over the other. They look not-too-far from even to me. I may be missing something though.

[StreamOfTheSky]

The Counterspell arcana can actually be good if you have access to the Reactive Counterspell feat.

Also, you can toss away your specialist bonus spell slots for the costs of arcana, mitigating the hurt a bit.

One thing I will say for Loremaster in a core-only game.... the ability to freely identify magic items is pretty handy. Out of core, you can get Artificer's Monocle or any other number of options. In core, you either have to waste time and money on Identify (100 gp and 1 hour per use) or pay for an expensive focus and use the 6th level Analyze Dweomer spell.

[candycorn]

Let's see:

Arcane Fire: Sucks. All it does is damage. Give up a 9th slot for converting spells to nothing more than damage? Lose.

Arcane Reach: 30-60 foot range on touch spells? It's a rough cost for 7th level slots, but can be useful.

Mastery of Counterspelling: A good Dispel focus can make this really shine. It's quite possible to get massive bonuses to dispels, from Inquisition Domain, to Dispelling Cords, to Paragnostic Apostle. Add on a feat that lets you take 10, and you can easily be countering, at level 14? Well, with a level 3 dispel magic, you'll get 10 (CL) + 1 (Para) + 4 (Inquisition) + 2 (Dispel Cord) + 5 (Master Specialist) = +22, which, if you take 10, will let you counter any spell of Caster Level 21 or lower. With a level 6 greater dispel, that's CL 25, 26 with magic tattoo, and up to +5 more, with other CL boosts. Now, those get turned? It can be strong, in a good build.

Mastery of Elements: Eh. It works off damage, which is sub-par.

Mastery of Shaping: put holes in those nasty Dispels? Absolutely.

Spell Power: Every level you take this, your CL goes up by two. That can give you, with 5 levels of this, a Caster level of 23 at level 18. Not counting items. It can be really good.

Spell-Like Ability: Absolutely amazing. Give up lower level slots for higher level slots, first, as has been said. Also opens up use of ability-feats, such as Quicken SLA (minor benefit). Also, makes the spell impossible to counterspell (much bigger benefit). So, you can give up a 5th and a 9th for an uncounterable Time Stop, 2/day. Or Shapechange. Fantastic ability.

Many of these abilities give up far more than you lose, making the Net Effect very strong.

[Alleran]

Mastery of Elements: Eh. It works off damage, which is sub-par.
I'd say that Mastery of Elements is a better choice for a sorcerer than a wizard, actually. It allows them, if they're a Blaster, to easily vary the elements making up their spells at no cost (so they don't need to use metamagic to change a Cone of Cold to a Cone of Fire, for example). With their limited spell list compared to a wizard, it's definitely a boost in their ability to be versatile with their blasting.

Which isn't to say that blasting isn't sub-par. Just that Mastery of Shaping probably works better for a sorcerer than a wizard. For a wizard, it'd be more situational.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Archmage isn't nearly as nice a return on the investment for a sorcerer as it is for a wizard, especially in regards to mastery of elements. A sorcerer that's going to waste his time blasting should have at least one spell from each of three elements. I and a couple others had a whole row on the matter in another thread a while back. I'll try to dig it up and post a link if anyone's interested.

The mastery of counterspelling ability is a waste of a high-arcana. If you wanted him dead, you'd just fire an attack spell into his face to force an impossible concentration check.

You use counterspelling to either take him alive, or at least to reduce collateral, something that turning his spells back on him actively works against.

[Story]

Does anyone know what the deal with Divine Oracle is? Can the extra spells be used by Wizards?

[Boci]

The mastery of counterspelling ability is a waste of a high-arcana. If you wanted him dead, you'd just fire an attack spell into his face to force an impossible concentration check.

You use counterspelling to either take him alive, or at least to reduce collateral, something that turning his spells back on him actively works against.

It works well with divine defiance from FC II, but the preqs are annoying. Turn undead is easy enough to get, but divine CL 3 is a pain.

[ericgrau]

Single target damage is subpar, but area damage is well worth it. With shaping and changing the energy type at the time of casting both without increased spell level you remove the drawbacks of area damage and it becomes pretty damn spectacular. Boom 1, boom 2, next fight plz kk thx. Had a party mage once with them and fights were pretty much all 2-3 rounds.

FWIW my sorcerer lists don't differ that much from my wizard lists. Along that path lies all sorts of horrible traps. I would take both of the above with only fireball on my list and some metamagic feats. I might be tempted to take other area and energy spells too, but only after getting the abilities and they would have to be pretty good to begin with; it wouldn't change my list that much. For example after shaping I might pick up cone of cold for its 60 foot cone area, as a backup for larger battlefields. Before that point I probably wouldn't take it.

[Story]

I thought Blaster Wizards were suboptimal? Aren't they better off with control, buffing, and utility?


Edit: Another question - does Loremaster become worthwhile if Frog God's Fane is allowed?

[Alleran]

I thought Blaster Wizards were suboptimal? Aren't they better off with control, buffing, and utility?
That doesn't mean they can't blast, only that they have better tactics. Look up the Orbizard sometime.


A sorcerer that's going to waste his time blasting should have at least one spell from each of three elements.
You mean five. Fire, Cold, Electricity, Acid, and the so-often-forgotten Sonic.

[Kelb_Panthera]

That doesn't mean they can't blast, only that they have better tactics. Look up the Orbizard sometime.


You mean five. Fire, Cold, Electricity, Acid, and the so-often-forgotten Sonic.

No, I meant three. Even at high levels the number of creatures that are outright immune or highly resistant to 3 different energy types are pretty minimal. I like acid, sonic, and electric myself. The limited number of spells known to a sorcerer makes picking up a level appropriate blast from all 5 elements impractical unless he's going for a mailman setup.

[Alleran]

The limited number of spells known to a sorcerer makes picking up a level appropriate blast from all 5 elements impractical unless he's going for a mailman setup.
Or burns a single 8th level spell slot (of which he can certainly afford to sacrifice one) for a High Arcana ability to get level-appropriate and element-variable damage from all his blasts. :smallwink:

[candycorn]

Archmage isn't nearly as nice a return on the investment for a sorcerer as it is for a wizard, especially in regards to mastery of elements. A sorcerer that's going to waste his time blasting should have at least one spell from each of three elements. I and a couple others had a whole row on the matter in another thread a while back. I'll try to dig it up and post a link if anyone's interested.

The mastery of counterspelling ability is a waste of a high-arcana. If you wanted him dead, you'd just fire an attack spell into his face to force an impossible concentration check.

You use counterspelling to either take him alive, or at least to reduce collateral, something that turning his spells back on him actively works against.

I disagree. At higher levels of optimization, being able to counter can sometimes be much easier than hitting with an attack spell. It's typically something used when your caster is part of an integrated team, and you have action advantage (which is easy for a caster, especially a sorceror, to get).

When that happens, hitting your opponent with his own spells can drain away his defenses, rendering the rest of the group more able to overcome the challenge.

[Story]

So does Loremaster become worthwhile if Frog God's Fane is allowed?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Or burns a single 8th level spell slot (of which he can certainly afford to sacrifice one) for a High Arcana ability to get level-appropriate and element-variable damage from all his blasts. :smallwink:

If he's going into archmage anyway then picking up mastery of elements is definitely a solid choice.

It's just that meeting the class's requirements are a bit more onerous for a sorcerer. Three less than stellar feats, when you only get 7 or 8, stings. Having to spend one of your 2 +int skills on a knowledge isn't exactly great either, though spellcraft is fairly useful.

A wizard will be getting at least 9 or 10 feats thanks to the bonus feats at 1st and 5th, I.E. before he gets into any other PrC's, and his notably higher intelligence means the knowledge skill requirement doesn't hurt either. Spellcraft is mandatory for wizards so that's not even a cost.

[Story]

But if you're going into Prcs, you probably won't be getting those bonus feats.

Also, I'm planning to ditch the 5th level bonus feat for Spontaneous Divination if I can. Unless there's a good reason not to.

[Kelb_Panthera]

But if you're going into Prcs, you probably won't be getting those bonus feats.

Also, I'm planning to ditch the 5th level bonus feat for Spontaneous Divination if I can. Unless there's a good reason not to.

I specifically only added the two bonus feats you get for the first 5 levels of wizard, though trading the second one for spontaneous divination can be a very solid choice. (not all DM's handle divination well) There are only a handful of PrC's that you could get into early enough that it would prevent you from getting the second bonus feat.

The only other way you don't get that second feat is by blending roles; wizard/rogue, wizard/fighter (aka gish), wizard/<caster> (theurge anyone?), but at that point you're not comparing sorcerer and wizard anymore, you're comparing specific builds.

[ericgrau]

I thought Blaster Wizards were suboptimal? Aren't they better off with control, buffing, and utility?

"Suboptimal" is pretty relative and only means "not best" not "worst". Blasting is far from the worst option, it's merely worse than control. Buffing ranges from a little better to much worse. "Utility" depends what you mean but it's usually worse than area damage; situational utility in particular are perhaps the worse spells to prepare (good for minor low level scrolls though). And single target damage is a lot worse than area damage.

The thing with internet discussions is that exaggerations run rampant, so that "2nd best" becomes "worst". Anything in the spotlight being argued against with something else gets hit pretty hard. Really to even be in the spotlight it has to be at least significant; anything obviously bad would never even come up for comparison. The real answer instead of comparing the two is "why choose only 1?". Haste, evard's tentacles then fireball the tentacles. Or at lower levels web then flaming sphere the trapped guy. At really high levels shape a metamagicked energy type changed fireball against large groups, and use a wall of force against smaller groups. Etc.

Once you buff up area damage, the best form of blasting, you have something pretty solid. Boosting "good but not the greatest" is pretty sweet. And with 2 only good core prestige classes for a pure arcane caster, it's one of the best things you can do in core.

[Acanous]

So does Loremaster become worthwhile if Frog God's Fane is allowed?

It's certainly a better option than it would be without. The Fane gets you one of the feats for cheap, meaning you've got more wiggle room in your build. It's still AN investment, but no longer an irriplaceable one.

[Story]

Can rods be applied to SLAs? Because it might be annoying, not being able to maximize your Time Stops. Or does it not matter in practice?

[Emperor Tippy]

I thought Blaster Wizards were suboptimal? Aren't they better off with control, buffing, and utility?

The thing you need to understand about wizards (and to a lesser degree all D&D 3.5 casting classes) is that player skill and experience is the greatest dictator of a choices effectiveness.

If you are new to D&D 3.5 or playing wizards, avoid blasting. You are highly unlikely to have the system mastery necessary to make a decent blaster and will likely step on the toes of the other players who have characters focused on doing damage. Focus on two areas; utility spells and battle field control. Most things that utility spells do aren't easily doable by others and they don't really cost you much and battlefield control tends to be a force multiplier.

Oh, in core only games wizards should avoid the direct damage path (evocation simply sucks at blasting and most of the core only direct damage spells are in the evocation class).

[Kelb_Panthera]

Can rods be applied to SLAs? Because it might be annoying, not being able to maximize your Time Stops. Or does it not matter in practice?

No. While they are very similar, spell-likes are not spells.

You might talk to your DM about custom crafting ability meta-rods, since extend, maximize, empower, etc all exist as feats that can be applied to spell-likes a few times per day. It might be a bit of a long-shot with some DM's though.

[Rubik]

Can rods be applied to SLAs? Because it might be annoying, not being able to maximize your Time Stops. Or does it not matter in practice?Check the spell-like metamagic feats in the Monster Manual.