fighting the shadows

[leegi0n]

Here's a hard one for you all: Using the classes below, in your opinion, what's the most effective way to stop a hold person slinging, shadow jumping, shade-type cleric (lvl12).

As dealt with by an Outsider sorcerer (Rakshasa) (lvl15)

[jaybird]

Celerity + Fireball, Mailman Style.

[leegi0n]

Celerity + Fireball, Mailman Style.

At the risk of sounding ignorant, please elaborate how this would work.
We talking cast dimesional anchor, then cast fireball, then celerity then another fireball?

[Dairuga]

At the risk of sounding ignorant, please elaborate how this would work.
We talking cast dimesional anchor, then cast fireball, then celerity then another fireball?

Not to Butt into another's conversation, but a "Mailman style" fireball, would most likely refer to stacking metamagic, as per the usual mailman builds. Mailman in particular, is, as far as my understanding goes, a reference to simply handing your damage to the other party's face.

A typical mailman fireball could possibly include: Arcane Thesis: Fireball, Easy Metamagic: Maximize Spell, Metamagic School Focus: Evocation, for an up to 3 Level-reduction on Metamagic spells 3/ day. So you could throw out an Empowered, Maximized, Admixtured; Substituted, Quickened Fireball as a level 4 spell, dealing 180 damage (60 from Maximize, +30 for Empower, Double this for Admixturing in a second element) as a Swift action. Then you cast it normally for another 180 damage.

Then you cast Celerity, and throw out another fireball, for a grand total of 540 damage. Granted, of course, there are far more efficient ways to build a mailman, but this is roughly how a Fireball-mailman could work. There is little need for dimensional anchor, if you can outright kill someone before they can teleport. For a better approach to how such could work (Given that Fireball can be nulled entirely with evasion, and pumping up that DC to nigh-unavoidable levels would be a pain), one could rather opt to use one of the Orb spells, like Orb of Acid, or Orb of Fire, requiring only a ranged touch attack instead.

Granted, if this is to be dealt with by a Sorcerer, then you would need to add on Rapid metamagic, so that your spells do not take a full-round to cast. I am not sure whether or not a sorcerer can benefit from quicken spell at all, with how it usually takes a full-round action to cast a metamagic spell for a sorcerer, but perhaps a DM would rule it so that it would work normally for sorcerers with Rapid Metamagic. This is one of the reasons why most Mailmen are Wizards, but still.

After the first two fireballs, if the plan still has gone out without a hitch, you can spend your Immediate action on your opponent's turn, even as he is trying to teleport; if he did survive the first two fireballs, to cast Celerity, interrupting his spellcasting to take another standard action for yourself. Granted, it might be contested if you can wait to see what an enemy do before casting celerity, but immediate actions generally let you act after an enemy tries to do something. Then, having cast Celerity (And using the swift action of your next turn, which you are going to lose anyway; due to Celerity's after effect), you get a third, immediate casting of a fireball if you so wish, and hopefully take the shadow-jumping cleric down.

[Flickerdart]

Why do you care about Hold Person if you're an Outsider?

[leegi0n]

Why do you care about Hold Person if you're an Outsider?


oh yeah. good point.

[Darrin]

Not to Butt into another's conversation, but a "Mailman style" fireball, would most likely refer to stacking metamagic, as per the usual mailman builds.


In the interests of pedantry, the Mailman would never use a fireball or anything involving a Ref save. He uses ranged touch attacks, mostly orbs and rays.

I'm confused about the OP. What exactly are we fighting, a hide-in-the-walls-style shadow with cleric levels or a level 12 cleric with the FRCS shade template?

And how many levels do we have on the Rakshasa, do you mean we have 15 sorcerer levels or do you mean 7HD + 7LA + 1? = ECL 15?

[leegi0n]

In the interests of pedantry, the Mailman would never use a fireball or anything involving a Ref save. He uses ranged touch attacks, mostly orbs and rays.

I'm confused about the OP. What exactly are we fighting, a hide-in-the-walls-style shadow with cleric levels or a level 12 cleric with the FRCS shade template?

And how many levels do we have on the Rakshasa, do you mean we have 15 sorcerer levels or do you mean 7HD + 7LA + 1? = ECL 15?


I was thinking "sorcerer"...I meant wizard. The rakshasa is a lvl 20 wizard. The cleric is a level 12 with the FRCS shade template on it. Along with a party of 8 other, various classes (all at lvl. 12)

[Darrin]

I was thinking "sorcerer"...I meant wizard. The rakshasa is a lvl 20 wizard. The cleric is a level 12 with the FRCS shade template on it. Along with a party of 8 other, various classes (all at lvl. 12)

Huh? The Rakshasa has 7 racial hit dice, and 7 levels of sorcerer casting as a racial feature. Adding sorcerer levels makes sense, not so much adding 20 levels of wizard. Thats an ECL of 34 (7 RHD, 7 LA, 20 wizard levels). Even without the Rakshasa levels, that's a trivial encounter for a level 20 wizard: dimensional lock + acid fog + daltim's fiery tentacles should do the trick.

[Eldariel]

I was thinking "sorcerer"...I meant wizard. The rakshasa is a lvl 20 wizard. The cleric is a level 12 with the FRCS shade template on it. Along with a party of 8 other, various classes (all at lvl. 12)

Eh, he'd prolly just use Rod of Maximize Spell, Shapechange into Choker/Chronotyryn, use extra standard action to maximize Time Stop, maximize Maw of Chaos 2 times on people. Cast an extra Maw, Gate in something big, put up some Forcecages, Walls of Force, Solid/Acid Fogs, Dimension Locks, Black Tentacles and whatever (2 actions for 5 free turns = 10 spells without Quickening anything; or if Shapechanging in Time Stop, only 9-8).

When time resumes people are taking ~300+ damage a turn in various force/temporal traps and if they're not dying they're not doing anything anyways. Boring brute force turn 1, but should be enough to kill most Caster Level 12 characters.

[docnessuno]

Eh, he'd prolly just use Rod of Maximize Spell, Shapechange into Choker/Chronotyryn, use extra standard action to maximize Time Stop, maximize Maw of Chaos 2 times on people. Cast an extra Maw, Gate in something big, put up some Forcecages, Walls of Force, Solid/Acid Fogs, Dimension Locks, Black Tentacles and whatever (2 actions for 5 free turns = 10 spells without Quickening anything; or if Shapechanging in Time Stop, only 9-8).

When time resumes people are taking ~300+ damage a turn in various force/temporal traps and if they're not dying they're not doing anything anyways. Boring brute force turn 1, but should be enough to kill most Caster Level 12 characters.

Any 20th level wizard who needs to use 12 spells to wipe a lvl12 party should REALLY be ashamed.

[Eldariel]

Any 20th level wizard who needs to use 12 spells to wipe a lvl12 party should REALLY be ashamed.

*shrug* Less about needing and more about just killing the target for certain when you aren't certain of its ability; certainly said 20th level Wizard doesn't know he's facing a mere 12th level Cleric. But yeah, it's definitely excessive. Hell, Shapechange alone can last more or less all day and should be sufficient and could make for a more interesting encounter.

[leegi0n]

Would any of you be so kind as to help me with a build for a CR20 Rakshasa SORCERER? Feats/spells/tactics, etc. Not real familiar with the Sorcerer class, especially as it deals with a LA7 Outsider. I've always really liked the tiger folk though. Anyone feeling generous enough to help me build one?

It will be a NPC and more than that, the last BIG BADDIE of the game. He is in league with hell (Devils) - if that matters, buildwise. The 8 PCs are all level 12.
various classes, including 2 clerics (one with the shade template), a half dragon, a bard/sublime chord, a scout, a drow fighter, a psion/wilder, a barbarian.

[Urpriest]

One minor point: the Rakshasa with 20 Sorceror levels would be CR 30, while one with 20 Wizard levels would be CR 26. Either is too high level to fight a 12th level party.

[Eldariel]

Would any of you be so kind as to help me with a build for a CR20 Rakshasa SORCERER? Feats/spells/tactics, etc. Not real familiar with the Sorcerer class, especially as it deals with a LA7 Outsider. I've always really liked the tiger folk though. Anyone feeling generous enough to help me build one?

Level Adjustment doesn't matter far as CR goes. Rakshasa Sorcerer 10 = CR 20, far as CR guidelines go. Sorcerer levels are associated class levels, and vanilla Rakshasa is CR 10 so 10 levels of Sorcerer makes him CR 20.

Combine these with his natural casting capabilities as a Rakshasa, Sorcerer 7, and he'll cast spells as a Sorcerer 17. Note, this is by CR guidelines; in reality, there's no way a Rakshasa who casts as Sorcerer 17 is the same CR as a Human who casts as Sorcerer 20.

Rakshasa has some stat advantages and minor abilities that can be replicated with spells and solid spell resistance but all that does not amount to 3 caster levels at this point anymore. As such, I'd say CR 20 Rakshasa should have ~18-19 levels of Sorcerer.


Let's assume we go with Sorcerer 18 (that is, Rakshasa with 11 levels in Sorcerer-class). Well, it could prestige class; Spellwarp Sniper [Complete Scoundrel] or 1 level of Mindbender [Complete Arcane] could be interesting. Also, looking at Rakshasa's natural combat style, they "disdain melee as ignoble" so we're probably looking at a character who fights via. spellcasting.

The most important question will be his spell loadout. This determines what kind of an encounter he is and how bad he can savage the party at the present. Sorcerers have incredibly high power peak but their power floor is fairly low. If going by Rakshasa style, they seem to prefer more subtle spells. They lack any of the big flashy effects but have a lot of mind magic, buffs and illusions. Few single target damage spells are also included.

It seems the sensible spell list should involve self-targeted spells, few more illusions (probably Project Image & Permanent Image; make Illusions, use Project Image as the initial medium to engage while staying in safety), the key enchantments (e.g. Irresistible Dance), all the big protection spells (Greater Mage Armor, False Life, Mind Blank, Greater Mirror Image [PHBII], Wings of Cover [RotD]), few damage spells (Wings of Flurry [RotD] & Orb of Fire [SC], perhaps?) and the obvious Greater Dispel Magic. Since we're talking a Sorcerer facing superior numbers, he definitely needs to have Greater Arcane Fusion [Complete Mage], and he should probably have Limited Wish to replicate whatever he really needs at any given time.

I'm thinking Arcane Spellsurge [Dragon Magic] is necessary against such numerically superior odds, and he probably wants a Wall-spell; perhaps Wall of Force to keep up the Force-theme. Black Tentacles (or Daltim's Fiery Tentacles [Shining South]) should probably be up there too, and perhaps Manyjaws [Spell Compendium].His single 9th level spell is probably the biggest decision:
Time Stop
Gate
Shapechange

Are all amazingly powerful and the kinds of spells a Rakshasa would probably use. Time Stop might be the way to go just to create those deathtraps I mentioned in the previous post, though Shapechange gains immense amounts of extra potential, and Gate would alleviate the burden of having to face a horde alone.

Either way, he should definitely know Polymorph Any Object just for utility (creating buildings, empowering any underlings he has by turning them into stronger monsters, digging caves, turning enemies into bunnies, etc.), and to even further expand his own ability to appear as anything. Assay Resistance is probably necessary utility by this point.


For feats, he needs some metamagic (Sorcerers are really good with metamagic) such as maybe Split Ray [Complete Arcane], Empower Spell, Extend Spell or Twin Spell [Complete Arcane]. It's worth noting that Arcane Spellsurge reduces non-metamagicked spells into Swift Actions and metamagicked spells into Standard Actions which enables flurry-style casting.

Other feats, well, there's a bunch of school-specific feats in Complete Mage which might be interesting and then there's of course Extra Spell. Aside from those, well, a bunch of utility feats exist. Do with them as you will.

Really, creating a high level spellcaster is always a big work but I believe this should give you reasonable basis to work with.

[leegi0n]

Yeah, no matter how you go about it, building a caster seems like a lot of work. But that's ok. The PCs have all but grown to trust this guy at this point and they've been exposed to him off and on for 2 years of gaming. Him revealing his true agenda is gonna cause a fight and I want him to be hardcore enough to back up his flamboyant and imposing nature that they've all come to expect.

Thank you for your help. It IS a great start.

[Xervous]

Make sure you give everyone in the party something to do, other than circle around and stare at the Rakshasa until he dies.

Toss in his minions, have him summon devils, put things on the field that draw the PCs' attention to separate locations to keep the Rakshasa alive (longer) without having to stat him out as some ridiculous threat that has no good reason not to just obliterate the party in a round and go back to his cup of tea (if that's his thing).

[Eldariel]

Make sure you give everyone in the party something to do, other than circle around and stare at the Rakshasa until he dies.

Toss in his minions, have him summon devils, put things on the field that draw the PCs' attention to separate locations to keep the Rakshasa alive (longer) without having to stat him out as some ridiculous threat that has no good reason not to just obliterate the party in a round and go back to his cup of tea (if that's his thing).

This is actually a really natural part of the build too:

Planar Binding is on Sorcerer spell list and seeing they're based on Cha-checks, they favor Sorcerers a lot. It requires Dimensional Anchor and Magic Circle against Alignment too but those should be easy enough to include.

Adding a Summon Monster (big number) to summon some devils might be interesting too but most of the summonable Devils are kinda windbags far as combat ability goes; they're generally summoned for their spell-likes.

[leegi0n]

Make sure you give everyone in the party something to do, other than circle around and stare at the Rakshasa until he dies.

Toss in his minions, have him summon devils, put things on the field that draw the PCs' attention to separate locations to keep the Rakshasa alive (longer) without having to stat him out as some ridiculous threat that has no good reason not to just obliterate the party in a round and go back to his cup of tea (if that's his thing).

Summoning a devil, off the bat, is what I have planned, actually. combat ensues...

he will eventually time stop it, drop some acid fog, maybe a delayed fireball. He will cast gate and on his exit, (because his master plan will be foiled by this time) he will mass summon some demons (those that can summon more demons) Since the cavern is already teeming with devils by this time....well, you connect the dots.



This is actually a really natural part of the build too:

Planar Binding is on Sorcerer spell list and seeing they're based on Cha-checks, they favor Sorcerers a lot. It requires Dimensional Anchor and Magic Circle against Alignment too but those should be easy enough to include.

Adding a Summon Monster (big number) to summon some devils might be interesting too but most of the summonable Devils are kinda windbags far as combat ability goes; they're generally summoned for their spell-likes.

While we're on the subject, is there such a thing as a magic circle against...primarily neutral?

[Eldariel]

Summoned Demons can't summon Demons. Devils might make more sense in any case, given they're Lawful. But pre-Planar Binding some of course works. Though no, there is no Magic Circle vs. Neutrality in the game.

[leegi0n]

Summoned Demons can't summon Demons. Devils might make more sense in any case, given they're Lawful. But pre-Planar Binding some of course works. Though no, there is no Magic Circle vs. Neutrality in the game.

I've read that Hezrou, Glabrezu, and Balor, for example, can summon other demons. Does that not apply here? If not, why? I'm thinking, when the summoner (rakshasa) bails, leaving them to their own devices, what's to stop them from bringing utter chaos with them? Especially since he left no ward against their doings and there are devils about... I mean, he summons a balor, for example, then splits. Does that not leave it wide open for war?

[Eldariel]

I've read that Hezrou, Glabrezu, and Balor, for example, can summon other demons. Does that not apply here? If not, why? I'm thinking, when the summoner (rakshasa) bails, leaving them to their own devices, what's to stop them from bringing utter chaos with them? Especially since there are devils about...

It's a trait of summoning magic: Summoning (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#summoning)

A summoned creature can't use its own summoning powers. Calling has no such limitation, of course, so Planar Bound creatures can use theirs but Summons (including the devils summoned by devils, or demons summoned by demons) can't.

[leegi0n]

It's a trait of summoning magic: Summoning (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#summoning)

A summoned creature can't use its own summoning powers. Calling has no such limitation, of course, so Planar Bound creatures can use theirs but Summons (including the devils summoned by devils, or demons summoned by demons) can't.

What about a demon that is "gated" in? What if that was done instead?

[Eldariel]

What about a demon that is "gated" in? What if that was done instead?

The calling function of Gate is Calling-type.