Knowledge Devotion, how does it work?

[mishka_shaw]

Hi

Okay I am asking this on behalf of our wizard as he, and I, are having a bit of trouble working out how this feat functions.
The feat is from Complete Champion and, trying to not break the copyright rule here, it basically means you use your knowledge check on an enemy type to get more damage against them.

Now we have two problems with the description of the check and how it works.

First: Do we need to beat the knowledge check of 10+Target HD as you would with a normal knowledge check?
Me and the wizard believe that this is a no and that you just compare your roll to the table supplied with the feat but I have to also agree with our DM that it is worded in a way that makes it ambiguous (as it says do a check based upon its type like in the PHB).

Second: Do we also gain the benefits of doing a normal knowledge check with this roll (as in learning enemy weaknesses)?
We are both unsure if we also gain bits of useful information from the knowledge check based upon our roll. I think this is a no as if we did gain info than it would mean the first question is a yes.

Any help would be appreciated. Usually we are very good at reading the rules due to our extensive arguments over magic the gathering errata but as far as things go...this one really has us split :smallannoyed:.

[Flickerdart]

Knowledge Devotion has nothing to do with using Knowledge skills to identify a creature. Its effects are clearly spelled out in the feat.

1) Make a Knowledge check as appropriate for the creature's type.
2) Receive bonuses depending on the check result.

The feat makes absolutely no reference to the Knowledge rules to identify a creature, which read: "In many cases, you can use this skill to identify monsters and their special powers or vulnerabilities. In general, the DC of such a check equals 10 + the monster’s HD. A successful check allows you to remember a bit of useful information about that monster."

Knowledge Devotion doesn't even let you do any of these things. There's no reason for it to need to match the DC of that function of the Knowledge skill.

[Crake]

Hi

Okay I am asking this on behalf of our wizard as he, and I, are having a bit of trouble working out how this feat functions.
The feat is from Complete Champion and, trying to not break the copyright rule here, it basically means you use your knowledge check on an enemy type to get more damage against them.

Now we have two problems with the description of the check and how it works.

First: Do we need to beat the knowledge check of 10+Target HD as you would with a normal knowledge check?
Me and the wizard believe that this is a no and that you just compare your roll to the table supplied with the feat but I have to also agree with our DM that it is worded in a way that makes it ambiguous (as it says do a check based upon its type like in the PHB).

Second: Do we also gain the benefits of doing a normal knowledge check with this roll?
We are both unsure if we also gain bits of useful information from the knowledge check based upon our roll. I think this is a no as if we did gain info than it would mean the first question is a yes.

Any help would be appreciated. Usually we are very good at reading the rules due to our extensive arguments over magic the gathering errata but as far as things go...this one really has us split :smallannoyed:.

Looking at the wording of Knowledge Devotion, it would seem that its benefits are applied to the normal knowledge check you would perform under standard circumstances. If you score 15 or above, you gain a bonus to hit the creature, and other creatures that share its type, however, if you do this but fail the DC of 10+the monster's HD, you simply fail to remember a useful piece of information.

So one check, compare it to the table, don't need to beat 10+HD, but doing so gives you insight into what vulnerabilities/resistances the monster might have as per normal.

At least that's how it looks to me.

[mishka_shaw]

Yeah I thought as much, I mean the only reference it makes is to which knowledge you need to use to match the creature type.

[Mystra]

Hi



Now we have two problems with the description of the check and how it works.



1.Well the feat sure says "you can make a Knowledge check based on its type, as described on page 78 of the Player's Handbook'', so you would go by that. So yes your making a 'normal knowledge' check vs a monster. Then look at that result and check the table.

2. No, your not doing a normal 'information check', your doing the 'weakness check'. But there would be plenty of crossover information. But you would sure not get the MM information.

[Curmudgeon]

Knowledge Devotion uses a Knowledge check.

Try Again: No. The check represents what you know, and thinking about a topic a second time doesn’t let you know something that you never learned in the first place. You never get a second Knowledge check, so the one check you make is used for both creature identification and Knowledge Devotion bonus determination.

[Torvon]

I disagree.

Knowledge devotion is not a knowledge check to learn something about the creatures. Otherwise the bonuses you receive would be transmittable to your allies somehow. Knowledge Devotion as something like divine inspiration: you get bonuses, but you don't actually LEARN something about the creature which you could communicate to your allies (that is why only you get the bonuses).

If you want to learn something, like resistances or weaknesses, in additional to the devotion you have to do your normal knowledge check, that takes a move action, as written in the rules. That's how we interpret the rules in our group.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

When you make a knowledge check for Knowledge Devotion, you're not "trying again." You're using the skill to do something completely different.

[Curmudgeon]

Knowledge devotion is not a knowledge check to learn something about the creatures.
Whenever you fight a creature, you can make a Knowledge check based on its type, provided that you have at least one rank in the appropriate Knowledge skill. As you can see, Knowledge Devotion does use a Knowledge check. It also doesn't make any statement about changing any of the regular rules associated with such checks. You're still subject to the "no retries" rule.

Otherwise the bonuses you receive would be transmittable to your allies somehow. How does that follow from what the rules say? The Knowledge check may give the character some information; whether they communicate that information is up to them. But Knowledge Devotion provides benefits only to the character who has the feat, because that's what it says.

How is it difficult to understand that you get one roll, but you can use that result in a couple of ways? When you're making a Listen check you don't only hear one sound; rather, you hear everything that's permitted with that check. With a Knowledge check you may remember something about a creature's characteristics and also (with Knowledge Devotion) remember how to fight creatures like that more effectively.

[Esgath]

As you can see, Knowledge Devotion does use a Knowledge check. It also doesn't make any statement about changing any of the regular rules associated with such checks. You're still subject to the "no retries" rule.

Which just means, that you can't make a knowledge check regarding knowledge devotion on the same type of creature twice.

The knowledge check for knowledge devotion is based on the creature type, not the specific creature. With one throw of the dice you would gain the same bonus if you were to fight against a blue dragon, a wyvern, a pseudodragon and some half-dragon something.
The normal knowledge check is based on the specific creature and you could make a check for each creature in a pack.
The normal check and the one for knowledge devotion are not the same.

[olentu]

As you can see, Knowledge Devotion does use a Knowledge check. It also doesn't make any statement about changing any of the regular rules associated with such checks. You're still subject to the "no retries" rule.
How does that follow from what the rules say? The Knowledge check may give the character some information; whether they communicate that information is up to them. But Knowledge Devotion provides benefits only to the character who has the feat, because that's what it says.

How is it difficult to understand that you get one roll, but you can use that result in a couple of ways? When you're making a Listen check you don't only hear one sound; rather, you hear everything that's permitted with that check. With a Knowledge check you may remember something about a creature's characteristics and also (with Knowledge Devotion) remember how to fight creatures like that more effectively.

Ah but you forget the knowledge skills can, in fact, be used for more then one thing. Why, exactly, are you claiming that knowledge devotion would not, say, use the rules for answering a really easy question within your field of study. That is equally as valid a use for the knowledge skill as any other. Arbitrarily restricting a choice to some subset of all valid choices without a rule backing that up is no more then a houserule.

[Andreaz]

Since both apply to identifying the creature, one can say that Knowledge Devotion applies on top of the normal check. Say you need 30+ to identify a dragon's details past "it's a dragon".

You roll 40.
You know it's a dragon.
You know it's at least X years old.
You have a bonus to hit and hurt him.
You know it has five fake teeth on the jaw.

[mattie_p]

This is more of a note on knowledge checks themselves rather than the devotion feat, but the tangent in the thread makes it pertinent enough to drop it here rather than open a new thread.

Knowledge checks were stealth-errata'd in MM4 and MM5. MM4 introduces the following rule:
As a general rule of thumb, a DC 15 check or higher will reveal all of the base creature’s type and subtype traits as defined in the glossary. This often includes information about energy resistance or various immunities.
The rationale given is that while a whisper demon has 15 hit dice and is a DC 25 to identify, there are 2 hit-dice creatures such as the dretch that share demon and tanar'ri traits, so it is reasonable to give out that information with the type.

MM5 keeps that rule and introduces a new one.
The baseline DC to identify a monster and remember one bit of information about its special abilities or vulnerabilities is equal to 10 + the monster’s CR. (This is a change from the description of the Knowledge skill, PH 78.)
Based on the primary rules source rule found in most errata files, this only pertains to monsters found in MM5, but there it is. Likewise, the previous rule (DC 15 to ID type and type traits) only pertains to 4 and 5 as well.

Amazingly, MM4 and 5 have actual lore blocks on what information to give out on a successful knowledge check at various DCs, something the previous Monster Manuals failed to do, but something (in my opinion) WoTC should have done all along.

[Torvon]

As you can see, Knowledge Devotion does use a Knowledge check. How is it difficult to understand that you get one roll, but you can use that result in a couple of ways?
You are right that skill rolls can mean different things. You are wrong that you can use the result for different things.
For instance, Bluffing to tell a lie uses a Bluff check, but you cannot use the same Bluff check to "feint in combat" in order to deny a enemies' Dex bonus to AC. You can neither use the same Bluff check to "creature a diversion to hide". Yes, all three rolls are Bluff checks, just as Knowledge Devotion is a knowledge check. But they require different rolls. Using Knowledge Devotion and Learning something about a creature are both knowledge rolls, just as the two bluff examples above. You can't gain two disparate benefits from the same roll, because you're trying to do 2 things. Many other examples, e.g. see "handle animal" skill. You can't do 2 different things with one roll.


With a Knowledge check you may remember something about a creature's characteristics and also (with Knowledge Devotion) remember how to fight creatures like that more effectively
A skill can have different uses, and Knowledge Devotion adds a use. You cannot use disparate meanings of a skill in one roll.

[mattie_p]

A skill can have different uses, and Knowledge Devotion adds a use. (a knowledge check to learn something about a creature is a move action, and this is a free action, supporting my argument that this is something entirely different).

It is not a move action. From the SRD on Knowledge skill (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/knowledge.htm):


Action
Usually none. In most cases, making a Knowledge check doesn’t take an action—you simply know the answer or you don’t.

Any cases where use of knowledge is other than a non-action would be defined elsewhere in the rules.

[Torvon]

It is not a move action. From the SRD on Knowledge skill (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/knowledge.htm):
Any cases where use of knowledge is other than a non-action would be defined elsewhere in the rules.
I edited my comment before I saw your reply :smallannoyed: ... you're right, I remembered that this was a house rule we used.

Doesn't change the facts though (see Bluff above).

[mattie_p]

Actually, in this case, I believe Curmudgeon to be correct. The Knowledge Devotion feat is not adding another use to the knowledge skill, it is adding another benefit for a successful knowledge check.

The feat explicitly refers to making a knowledge check "as described on page 78 of the Player's Handbook." The next paragraph:


You then receive an insight bonus on attack rolls and damage rolls against that creature type for the remainder of the combat.

The conditional benefit (insight bonus on attack rolls) is contingent on the knowledge check as in the PHB.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Looking at the full sentence:
Whenever you fight a creature, you can make a Knowledge check based on its type, as described on page 78 of the Player’s Handbook, provided that you have at least one rank in the appropriate
Knowledge skill.The "as described" clause refers to the type of knowledge check made to identify a particular creature, not on making a knowledge check in general.

Also, even if the two checks are rolled as one, the bonus conferred by Knowledge Devotion is very clearly defined. You make a knowledge check, and then (with no caveat or special language) you receive a bonus based on the table. If you roll crap on your knowledge check*, you still get a +1 insight bonus to hit and damage. It doesn't matter whether or not you successfully identified the creature.

Edit: More specifically, Knowledge Devotion goes like this:

1. Make a knowledge check.
2. You then receive a benefit...

It says you have to make a knowledge check, not succeed at a knowledge check. You receive the benefit simply for rolling the die.

*And you have at least one rank

[Keld Denar]

Eh, the way I do it in my game, is that the player with Knowledge Devotion rolls, I compare his result to the table to determine his bonus, and then tell him all the specific details that that result would give him.

Streamlines things a bit to only have him roll once. Not much, but enough.

[Telonius]

Here's how I make sense of it.

A character is fighting an aberration and rolls a knowledge check. He gets an 11. He doesn't remember much about the particular magical strengths and weaknesses of whatever that aberration is, but that little piece of it sticking out there looks an awful lot like where its splanch ought to be, so hitting that would probably hurt it more. (He gets +1 to attack and damage).

A few levels later, he's fighting a different aberration, and rolls a 30. He realizes that what he's fighting is a Destrachan, gets three useful pieces of information about the monster, and knows for sure where its splanch is. He gets +3 to attack and damage.

[Zombimode]

If you score 15 or above, you gain a bonus to hit the creature, and other creatures that share its type

Minor nit pick: with Knowledge Devotion you never fail to receive a bonus against an enemy of a type you a Knowledge skill for. The table reads "15 or below = +1".