Can someone give me a crash course in necromancy?

[Zelkon]

I'm about to start playing a 8th level cleric necromancer, but the rules for undead-raising is kinda complicated. What do I have to know to be a basic necromancer?

[Myrddin0001]

what exactly are you confused about? I love playing necromancers and have researched them extensively. The rules can be worded a little screwy and get pretty complicated.

[Myrddin0001]

Google the Revised Necromancer Handbook. It's the best out there.

[Almagesto]

K.530's Revised Necromantic Handbook (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872726/Revised_Necromancer_Handbook) is like THE ultimate reference when it comes to necromancy. Also, the Tome of Necromancy (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19527634/Tome_of_Necromancy) is a great reference as to what necromancy should be.

[Myrddin0001]

K.530's Revised Necromantic Handbook (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872726/Revised_Necromancer_Handbook) is like THE ultimate reference when it comes to necromancy. Also, the Tome of Necromancy (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19527634/Tome_of_Necromancy) is a great reference as to what necromancy should be.

agreed. clerics are the best class. deathbound and undeath domains are prime. corpsecrafter feat chain is the best choice. if DM allows, become a Necropolitan and have yourself corpsecrafted and spell stitched. get a rod of undead mastery asap.

[Silva Stormrage]

First, try to get some way of getting Animate Dead as a spell like ability or someway to not have to pay for them. Animate dead gets EXPENSIVE. The easiest way is to become undead yourself (Either bone/corpse creature if the DM ignores the LVL Adjustment - line or Necropolitain as mentioned earlier) and then just spell stich yourself giving yourself animate dead and a few other good spells as spell like abilities. Boom no more Onyx necessary for you.

Animating creatures requires you look into the stats and deciding wether skeletons or zombies are the best for a particular undead (Normally skeletons are the best due to lower HD). Zombies are good for tanks, flying mounts (They keep fly speeds) dragons (Look in draconomicon for zombie dragon they get their own template) and Hydras (They get all their attacks as a standard action). I have found that zombie Centaurs with lances are also good.

Try to get some Alips or Shadows with your rebuke they are really good for their low HD as if the enemy can't use magic weapons or magic they instantly lose against a single shadow.

Have fun building a horde of undead minions :smallbiggrin:

[Zelkon]

First, try to get some way of getting Animate Dead as a spell like ability or someway to not have to pay for them. Animate dead gets EXPENSIVE. The easiest way is to become undead yourself (Either bone/corpse creature if the DM ignores the LVL Adjustment - line or Necropolitain as mentioned earlier) and then just spell stich yourself giving yourself animate dead and a few other good spells as spell like abilities. Boom no more Onyx necessary for you.

Animating creatures requires you look into the stats and deciding wether skeletons or zombies are the best for a particular undead (Normally skeletons are the best due to lower HD). Zombies are good for tanks, flying mounts (They keep fly speeds) dragons (Look in draconomicon for zombie dragon they get their own template) and Hydras (They get all their attacks as a standard action). I have found that zombie Centaurs with lances are also good.

Try to get some Alips or Shadows with your rebuke they are really good for their low HD as if the enemy can't use magic weapons or magic they instantly lose against a single shadow.

Have fun building a horde of undead minions :smallbiggrin:

Spellstiched? What's that from?

[123456789blaaa]

K.530's Revised Necromantic Handbook (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872726/Revised_Necromancer_Handbook) is like THE ultimate reference when it comes to necromancy. Also, the Tome of Necromancy (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19527634/Tome_of_Necromancy) is a great reference as to what necromancy should be.

I would reccomend the minmaxboards version (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2733.0) of the RNH instead of the wizards one. The minmaxboards one is the latest and has notes that correct some of the mistakes in the guide.

[Urpriest]

Note that if your problem is more basic (i.e., "what are the stats for my skeleton?") then my Monster Handbook (link in sig) is the first place to look. If your issue is more on the level of optimization advice, though, the guides are going to be more helpful.

[Zelkon]

Note that if your problem is more basic (i.e., "what are the stats for my skeleton?") then my Monster Handbook (link in sig) is the first place to look. If your issue is more on the level of optimization advice, though, the guides are going to be more helpful.

I guess I don't get how each skeleton works. Do I just apply the skeleton template to all my rez-ed monsters?

[Urpriest]

I guess I don't get how each skeleton works. Do I just apply the skeleton template to all my rez-ed monsters?

Precisely! You apply either Skeleton or Zombie to whichever monster you have a corpse of, your choice.

[Silva Stormrage]

Spellstiched? What's that from?

Complete arcane it is a template

[Zelkon]

What's a good PrC for my spell-stitched necropoltan human necromancer? In fact, what's a good build for my spell-stitched necropoltan human necromancer?:smallbiggrin:

[Almagesto]

agreed. clerics are the best class. deathbound and undeath domains are prime. corpsecrafter feat chain is the best choice. if DM allows, become a Necropolitan and have yourself corpsecrafted and spell stitched. get a rod of undead mastery asap.

I agree, CLERIC is the best class for necromancy, but DREAD NECROMANCER is quite good as well - at least until 8th lvl. After that, just PrC into whatever you find suits your style. Also, I actually agree with the Necropolitan + Spellstitched combo. Like K.530 said, it's about getting the best you can get: just stack rebuking items.

IF you play a cleric, then don't forget about anthropomorphic bat (Savage Species) and Dragonwrought Kobold (Races of the Dragon + Web Enhancements [a must]). Any one of those races PLUS the Necropolitan/Spellstitched combo is bound to make you awesome !

... come to think about it, that's what I'll play in my next campaign.

[Amphetryon]

What's a good PrC for my spell-stitched necropoltan human necromancer? In fact, what's a good build for my spell-stitched necropoltan human necromancer?:smallbiggrin:

Though the 1st level is PAINFULLY dead, Pale Master (Libris Mortis) works well. Dread Witch (Heroes of Horror) is a 5 level PrC that's often recommended as the "rider" PrC to finish out Necromancer builds, though its focus (fear-stacking) is a bit of a divergence from Pale Master's.

[lord_khaine]

And for cheap zombies you can allways create them though fell animate.

[Toy Killer]

Fell Drain (I believe) is a feat from Libris Mortis, and it allows you to add one negative level to the spell's effect. When you kill a creature due to negative levels (the negative levels are more then the hit die or levels of the creature) they rise the next night as a Wight. Wights are awesome if you have a means to control them, they even make more wights for you!

Sandstorm also has a prestige class, Walker in the Waste, that gives you the Dry Lich template as a capstone and makes making mummies easier... Somehow, I'm not a hundred percent sure how though...

I'm away from my books but those are two important bits I've learned of 3.5's necromancy.

[Darth Stabber]

Depending on how much optimization work you are willing to do, there are many options. If you are looking to keep things simple, I would argue that dread necromancer is a lot easier, and gives you more than cleric if you aren't going to all the hastle of prestige classes. Cleric is slightly MADder than DN, and DN has actual class features (not great, but better than cleric). Human dreadnecro 20 with tomb tainted soul, spell focus necro, metamagic school focus(necro), corpse crafter, and a few metamagic feats is really easy and will do the job in any mid op game, but it doesn't have the potential of cleric based opti-fu.

Additional notes
Wight chaining (utilizing the create spawn ability of some undead, most notably wights, to control 1 creature than controls several, with only the first one eating up your controlled undead hd pool) is a powerful technique at first blush since you can end up with a ridiculous number of them under your control, however any gm with 2 brain cells is going to take the worst possible opportunity to destroy the one you do control, causing all of his underlings to go uncontrolled and probably kill you and your entire party.

Hordes of weak undead is a trap, and rude. Spend your control cap on bigger stronger undead. This will ensure that your minions are useful, and reduce the amount of time your turn takes. Seriously, if you have 20 skeletons, your turn will take forever, and probably annoy the rest of your party. I have been in parties where I can walk outside at the beginning of the necromancer's turn, smoke and come back in and not have missed my turn (20+ misses isn't a great use of time). Not that I don't appreciate a smoke break.

[Almagesto]

Depending on how much optimization work you are willing to do, there are many options. If you are looking to keep things simple, I would argue that dread necromancer is a lot easier, and gives you more than cleric if you aren't going to all the hastle of prestige classes. Cleric is slightly MADder than DN, and DN has actual class features (not great, but better than cleric). Human dreadnecro 20 with tomb tainted soul, spell focus necro, metamagic school focus(necro), corpse crafter, and a few metamagic feats is really easy and will do the job in any mid op game, but it doesn't have the potential of cleric based opti-fu.

First, Dreadnecro sucks after 8th lvl. DN20 is not really optimization, it's just a waste of 12 lvls. Any good PrC - EVEN Pale Master - is a better way to go.



Additional notes
Wight chaining (utilizing the create spawn ability of some undead, most notably wights, to control 1 creature than controls several, with only the first one eating up your controlled undead hd pool) is a powerful technique at first blush since you can end up with a ridiculous number of them under your control, however any gm with 2 brain cells is going to take the worst possible opportunity to destroy the one you do control, causing all of his underlings to go uncontrolled and probably kill you and your entire party.

True, but you could also arm your top wights with spellstitching and nifty armor and magic items.



Hordes of weak undead is a trap, and rude. Spend your control cap on bigger stronger undead[...]

I totally agree with you on this one. A few buffed up minions are better than a million lame ones.

[Urpriest]

One PrC I like for divine necromancers is Master of Shrouds. It doesn't enhance your necromancy, but it does give you some nifty necro-flavored abilities, in particular summoning of incorporeal undead. You generally want to get into it early with a level in Church Inquisitor to get the required saves.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

First, Dreadnecro sucks after 8th lvl. DN20 is not really optimization, it's just a waste of 12 lvls. Any good PrC - EVEN Pale Master - is a better way to go.Free LA+4 template is no good???

Seriously, though, I think you significantly underestimate DN's abilities, particularly the ability to tack on new spells onto the spell list, like Aura of Terror or Animate Dread Warrior/Skeletal Champion.



True, but you could also arm your top wights with spellstitching and nifty armor and magic items.Incorporeal creatures may not be spellstitched.


I totally agree with you on this one. A few buffed up minions are better than a million lame ones.

Quantity takes on a quality all its own, particularly if you've got a Bard with Requiem floating around somewhere. However, that's what Animate Dread Warrior or Animate Skeletal Champion is for... you just took down an Ubercharger? Congratulations, now you have a new and improved ubercharger pet!

In fact, I seem to recall a cute little trick wherin a party meat shield got killed, and the party necro used Animate Skeletal Champion, then the guy playing said meat shield just wrote up a new character. Effectively gave the party a new member and a boost to said beatstick, since he got all the boosts involved in being raised in a desecrated, unhallowed area by a Dread Necro with Corpsecrafter.

One of the builds I advocate quite frequently is Dread Necro7/Dread Witch5/Dread Necro8. Since Pale Master's only useful ability is at level 9, with the free minion, it's almost completely irrelevant.

[Urpriest]

Incorporeal creatures may not be spellstitched.



Wight, not wraith.

[Darth Stabber]

First, Dreadnecro sucks after 8th lvl. DN20 is not really optimization, it's just a waste of 12 lvls. Any good PrC - EVEN Pale Master - is a better way to go.

Dreadnecro doesn't suck after 20, it's as strong a base class as it was before, the opportunity costs of staying in it are higher for levels 9+, but you missed what I was trying to say.

I wasn't talking about full on maximization, I was talking about easy with efficacy. There is no doubt that DN is a pretty good class all on it's own, yes you can get more with prcs, but given that it does have actual class abilities, there are more good reasons to go DN20 than cleric20. DN20 is very easy and since you aren't paying skill and feat taxes, you can focus all or your choices on stuff you want. It's not high op, it's lazy op, and given the book keeping nightmare that having all those minions entails, I could never fault anyone for cutting corners in this respect. Even without prcing it up, you can still easily contribute in all but the highest op games, the core thing you need is spells, and you get those whether you stay in class or prc out, the rest is window dressing for the average game.

[Almagesto]

Free LA+4 template is no good???

Seriously, though, I think you significantly underestimate DN's abilities.

Really? Take a quick look at any optimization guide OR, better yet, match him against any other class of the same tier. It will completely suck after 8th lvl, even pulling some crazy the-DM-said-I-could shenanigans, you're just wasting your time. The bonuses to this class simply come at such a slow rate and are so far between that it's just better to multiclass into something else.


Wight, not wraith.

Thank you for clarifying that for ShneekeyTheLost, Ur Priest.

[Venger]

First, Dreadnecro sucks after 8th lvl
no, after 8, your animate dead pool is now keyed off your DN level. undead mastery gives you 4+cha x class level. if you leave after 8, you're not really going to be able to boost it as opposed to going straight.

rainbow warsnake aside, dread necro is one of the few classes in the game that you really should play to 20.

[Almagesto]

no, after 8, your animate dead pool is now keyed off your DN level. undead mastery gives you 4+cha x class level. if you leave after 8, you're not really going to be able to boost it as opposed to going straight.

rainbow warsnake aside, dread necro is one of the few classes in the game that you really should play to 20.

I agree, Undead Mastery is exactly THE reason why 8th is the level at which you should drop. After that, any PrC that also advances rebuking and spellcasting will be better.

[Darth Stabber]

I agree, Undead Mastery is exactly THE reason why 8th is the level at which you should drop. After that, any PrC that also advances rebuking and spellcasting will be better.

I was never saying that prestiging out isn't the optimum choice, I was merely stating that staying in the class is easier for several reasons. Dread Necro 20 with the right feat choices isn't weak, merely weaker than taking a prestige class. Wizard20 isn't weak, but given what you can get if you take a prc, it is weaker than wizard15/archmage5, which is weaker than wizard5/focused specialist10/archmage5, which is weaker than some iotsfv incantrix mess that I can't think of at the moment. None of this means that wizard 20 can't rip reality apart and reassemble it exactly as he wants in 6 seconds flat. Dread necro 20 can still do all the important things that dreadnecro8/palemaster9/dreadwitch3 can pull off, though it may miss a couple of nice abilities, it is still leading undead hordes to crush the lives of the living, spraying negative levels and curses in every direction, which is exactly what the more complicated builds are doing, only the more complicated builds are getting some other things done while they're at it. The thing is those otner things are mostly corner cases, what you spend the bulk of your time doing is casting the spells that make the people fall down, following it up with the spells that make them stand back up. Yes you miss out on a little, but what you miss is of marginal utility compared with the abilities you have either way.

Plus there aren't any good prcs that advance your familiar

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Really? Take a quick look at any optimization guideWhat, you mean like the one I wrote (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=214212)?


OR, better yet, match him against any other class of the same tier. It will completely suck after 8th lvl, even pulling some crazy the-DM-said-I-could shenanigans, you're just wasting your time. The bonuses to this class simply come at such a slow rate and are so far between that it's just better to multiclass into something else.

Or, you could actually look at the relevant class abilities they get at higher levels and see if it matches or exceeds what you can get out of a PrC...

There's two spells you can pick up with Advanced Learning that, by themselves, are more powerful than most PrC's which DreadNecro qualifies for. Those being: Aura of Terror and Animate Skeletal Champion.

The former takes your normally sub-par 5th level ability, the humble Fear Aura, and supercharges it. When combined with Dread Witch, it turns into Area Effect Save or Cower... and just to be clear, no, you aren't immune to it, even if you should be.

As a passive ability which requires no further actions on your part outside of your initial buffing at the beginning of the day.

You may have heard of a build called Takahashi no Onisan which was impressive mostly because it took a Tier 6 class (CW Samurai) and made it into a lockdown build. This does that... without eating up your action economy, and bypassing immunities, and STILL having relevant spells.

Animate Skeletal Champion (or, if you prefer, Animate Dread Warrior) is basically giving you free party members, since the minions retain their class levels. You said you wanted more powerful minions over masses of minions? Here you go.

PLEASE name me a PrC, other than Rainbow Servant, which this class qualifies for, which can do better than this?

Animate Skeletal Champion takes Pale Master out behind the woodshed, because instead of ONE minion with class levels, you've got SEVERAL. It also takes every other minion-based PrC out behind the woodshed for the same reason. Pets with class levels >>>>> pets without class levels.

Aura of Terror = battlefield control. Whatever it is, it isn't doing anything once it gets close. This basically means you are immune to melee attacks. Period. Ever. Yes, even then. Think about that a moment. immune to melee. Because when they try to close, they have to make a DC 40ish Will save or Cower. And no, immunity won't help you.

These two spells alone, granted by a class ability at class level 8 and 12 respectfully, assuming you go DN7/DW5/DN8, will allow you to trivialize any encounter.

[Psyren]

My sole issue with the DN is lack of Desecrate. That really should have been on their list, WotC screwed the pooch there. Otherwise, Cha focus and Undead Mastery makes it the queen of rot.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

My sole issue with the DN is lack of Desecrate. That really should have been on their list, WotC screwed the pooch there. Otherwise, Cha focus and Undead Mastery makes it the queen of rot.

Thanks to their being able to spontaneously cast off of their entire spells known list, however, it's fairly easy to port it in. Arcane Disciple, if nothing else. They can also get easier access into True Necromancer (via southern magician and a one-level dip in Cleric for the domains) for a permanent desecrate aura. And, of course, if you use UrPriest as your divine side, you end up with access to all cleric spells anyways, which includes desecrate and unhallow.

I agree that it should have been there, however it's not particularly painful to port on.

Failing that, there's always the ring.

[TheifofZ]

I don't think the original poster wanted an in depth guide on why the DN is/isn't great after level 8th.
A basic guide to undead minions and you:
Find a cool undead template that explicitly states it can be created with the spell Animate Dead. Then follow the step by step instructions. (Bloodhulks are really fun if you can get enough bodies)
Certain feat trees (Corpse Crafter tree found in the Libris Mortis) can make your undead bigger, badder, or all around better.
Crappy 1HD minions aren't great, but if you're on the down and out in terms of corpse reserves, there's nothing wrong with a quick and dirty zombie to get the ball rolling again.
Be creative with your corpses. Sure, a 10HD skeleton is frightening, but usually these giant horrors are... kind of conspicious and lacking in finesse. Sometimes taking, say, a 1/8th HD rat, lacing it with explosive runes, and running it into the enemy guards can have a better result than that skeletal troll you've been saving. Or at least soften them up for the skeletal troll to finish off.
Final Rule- Always remember: Minions are minions are minions. This means that
1- They're expendable, and renewable resources.
2- They're easy for enemies to command.
3- It's difficult (and requires much min-maxing) to make your average skeleton anywhere near as potent as the fighter.

[Darth Stabber]

I don't think the original poster wanted an in depth guide on why the DN is/isn't great after level 8th.

You must be new here. In depth arguments that are only tangentially related to the thread topic are pretty much par for the course.