Emulating a WoW Rogue [3.5/PF]

[hymer]

What build or classes would you use (feel free to pick any level) to emulate the World of Warcraft Rogue?
It'll be interesting to see if there are even anyone besides me who plays WoW here. :) This is purely an intellectual excercise, at least for now.

For those who don't know them but are curious: WoW Rogues are able combatants, with focus on stealth, and they invariably use poison (so no surprises there). They wear light armour (leather) and mostly use daggers, but can also use onehanded swords, axes and maces. (Still no surprises, I expect.)
They are skilled in controlling foes with stuns, disarms and interrupts, but also have a few magical abilities (such as shadowstep, essentially a short range dimension door, and their stealth, especially when used in mid-combat, is tantamount to invisibility). All these make it possible for them to take on the platemail fellows and the magical dudes with mostly their guile and skillz.
They are also skilled in dealing with traps, and using certain tools like smokebombs and lockpicks.

[MidgetMarine]

With the tons and tons of options that Rogues have in WoW, it'd be impossible to emulate just a rogue without any specification. However, given a particular rogue build from WoW, it might be interesting.

Though on the note of shadowstep, Shadowdancer PrC seems perfect, as they can spread the total distance of Shadowjump out as they see fit.

[Cog]

Psychic Rogue (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b) might do the trick, opening up teleportation (including shadow walk), boosts to stealth, and some other tricks. No stunning-type abilities that I'm aware of, but you can do that with feats (Staggering Strike, maybe?) or a dip (Monk, with Kung Fu Genius and Ascetic Rogue?). Expanded Knowledge could open up some tricks for you as well.

[Alabenson]

Based on what I know WoW rogues (I've never played the class that much) I'd say your best bet would be a Swordsage focusing on Tiger Claw and Shadow Hand, possibly with a smattering of Stone Dragon and Setting Sun. That would give you a good mix of two-weapon fighting abilities, crowd control options, and supernatural utility powers.

[Acanous]

in 3.5/PF, a WoW rogue is going to do about the same as a 3.X rogue- namely suck and die. Immunities to Poison are cheap and easy to come by- crits are more expensive, stuns are more rare, but by the mid teens everyone's got a means to be immune to all three as a matter of course.

You can, however, emulate those abilities pretty well. A monk dip gives you Stunning Fist, Poison Use can be taken from Underdark, there's PrC's that give you shadow step and Hide in Plain Sight.

All in all, Rogues from D&D/PF are very similar to WoW rogues, but the bosses at lv 15+ are similar to bosses at lv 80 in WoW.

[Silva Stormrage]

With this :smalltongue: assuming you don't mind homebrew.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187931

[NinjaInTheRye]

I don't play WoW so based only on your description I'd say in a PF only game you could just go with Ninja with a 3 level prestige into Horizon Walker (to get Terrain dominance of astral plane for Dimension Door) or you could prestige Shadowdancer for the Shadow Jaunt ability.

PF Ninja is an alternate Rogue that gets Poison use in place of trapfinding.

Then use your Ninja Tricks to pick up Vanishing trick to turn invisible and the smoke bomb tricks can let you stagger, poison, and blind enemies.

[hymer]

@ MidgetMarine: If you care to jump in, pick a spec, any spec with any talent choice, and go for it. I didn't want to limit the options for anyone.
And Shadowdancer is one of the things I'd thought of too. There's sub's shadowdance too, and the namings are just too close to miss. :)

@ Cog: Yes, looks like it could do what you want. Do you have any experience with psychic rogues in play?

@ Alabenson: ToB to the rescue! :) Of course you're right.

@ Acanous: As I said, feel free to pick a level - so a level where you think it won't work is okay too. Though I doubt anyone is completely useless with +20 or so in UMD, good stealth abilities and the Darkstalker feat. :)

@ Silva Stormrage: Thanks! I'll go take a look at that.

@ NinjaInTheRye: Not bad!

[Krazzman]

For WoW related stuff (discussion about leaders, bragging about raids, and such stuff) there is a Thread in the Gaming(Other) Sub-Forum. You might be interested in it.

Hope this helps.

[ThiagoMartell]

Wouldn't Swordsage work right out of the box?

[Dusk Eclipse]

I'm with Thiago, Swordsage has native access to everything but stunning at relatively low level (and you can substitue stunning with staggering strike to a degree) for actual stunning you can get a sudden stunning weapon (though that needs to invest in Cha), dip monk for two levels or get White Raven hammer at level 15 (would need a crown of the White Raven and investing 3 feats in Martial Study).

[hymer]

@ Krazzman: Thanks, I didn't know that.

@ ThiagoMartell: To a great extent, I'm sure it would.

@ Dusk Eclipse: Very specific, thanks. How bad would a two-level dip in Monk be?

[Dusk Eclipse]

Despite being a bad class, monk 2 is one of the strongest dips in the game, giving you average HD decent skill points from a pretty good list, up to 3 feats (with room for some custimization if you use the variant combat styles from UA or even more if you have access to the martial monk variant from Dragon) +1 Bab, + 3 bump to saves, evasion or my personal favourite Invisible fist (from Exemplars of Evil)

[Feralventas]

Seconding Swordsage as a primary focus with a dip in Monk if you want it, though Unarmed Swordsage gets many of the same features (unarmed strike, wis to AC, etc).

What I'd also suggest you look into is the Dark Creature template out of Tome of Magic; great bonuses to Hide and Move Silently, and the vaunted Hide in Plain Sight to symbolize the Rogue's stealth mechanics.

Additionally, look into the Ghost feats in the Ghostwalk campaign book. Things like short-range Dimension Door, temporary incorporeality, and other nifty tricks; these require ignoring the usual requirement that the character be dead or already technically incorporeal to use some of them.

[Gigas Breaker]

TWF crit fishing shadow hand/tiger claw swordsage with maybe a fighter dip for feats. Some of the maneuvers will also stun.

[ericgrau]

It sounds like you need a lot of disables, regular invisibility, short range porting and damage. There are several build and item options in D&D that do these things, so a variety of builds could work. Actual rogue levels aren't essential and might even get in the way. Even trapfinding is easy to get in a variety of ways with only 1 or 2 levels.

For poison use poison. Drow sleep poison is generally pretty good levels 5-10. Most other poisons aren't as good in regular combat, especially not in parties. But if you use solo hit and run tactics like it sounds like you might then there are several other decent poisons; look at the ones that have a nice effect 1 minute later.

[doko239]

A PF Ninja 1/Vivisectionist 6/Ninja X would give you access to some very nice Poison-related discoveries while still keeping a full Sneak Attack progression:

Concentrate poison: The alchemist can combine two doses of the same poison to increase their effects. This requires two doses of the poison and 1 minute of concentration. When completed, the alchemist has one dose of poison. The poison's frequency is extended by 50% and the save DC increases by +2. This poison must be used within 1 hour of its creation or it is ruined.


Sticky poison: Any poison the alchemist creates is sticky—when the alchemist applies it to a weapon, the weapon remains poisoned for a number of strikes equal to the alchemist's Intelligence modifier. An alchemist must be at least 6th level before selecting this discovery.


Poison Conversion: By spending 1 minute, the alchemist can convert 1 dose of poison from its current type (contact, ingested, inhaled, or injury) to another type. For example, the alchemist can convert a dose of Small centipede poison (an injury poison) to an inhaled poison. This process requires an alchemy lab. An alchemist must be at least 6th level before selecting this discovery.
To get all three, you'd need to take the Extra Discovery feat at 7th level. Mutagen could be fluffed as an Elixir of Agility or whatever. It'll also give you access to some additional utility powers in the form of Extracts.

[hymer]

@ Dusk Eclipse: Sounds good. I was thinking Initiator Level loss might be a big no-no, like loss of caster levels. I've never actually played a ToB class, so I don't know how much it hurts in practice, though I assume from your post it wouldn't be a problem.

@ Feralventas: Thanks! If invisibility isn't easily achieved, hide in plain sight is of course very valuable.
I don't have the Ghostwalk book. Yet. Is it worth getting a hold of on average?

@ ericgrau: Poison is definitely one of the headaches. It has very definite uses in WoW, and for some rogues is extremely potent and central to their mechanics. Emulating that could be hard at higher levels.

@ doko239: Sounds very interesting. I assume from your post that PF ninjas aren't as, well, laughable as 3.5 ninjas.

[Feralventas]

I don't often encourage piracy, but when I do, {Don't'. Scrubbed link.}

PF's Ninja is pretty much a variant archtype of the Rogue in this one; still sneak attack rather than sudden strike, a host of specific "ninja tricks" (rogue talents) and can take either at each even level. I think there might be a "spend a ki-point to become invisible" trick somewhere, but if not, yeah, Hide in Plain Sight works.

There's also a magic item that grants the template if you'd rather not take the level adjustment, and I believe the Shadow Dancer grants that feature as well.

Edit: Tome of Battle classes gain initiator at a 1:1 ratio for their own classes, but also gain it at a 1:0.5 for non-initiator levels, so 2 levels in 1 class still grants +1 initiator level. This is part of what makes them great dipping classes for other non-magical classes like Fighter and Rogue.

[doko239]

PF Ninja of 10+ gets Greater Invisibility as a swift action at CL=Class level by spending a Ki point (of which you have 0.5*level+Cha/day). Sneak attack ALL DAY LONG. Far better for a combat build than a vanilla rogue.

[Clistenes]

What build or classes would you use (feel free to pick any level) to emulate the World of Warcraft Rogue?
It'll be interesting to see if there are even anyone besides me who plays WoW here. :) This is purely an intellectual excercise, at least for now.

For those who don't know them but are curious: WoW Rogues are able combatants, with focus on stealth, and they invariably use poison (so no surprises there). They wear light armour (leather) and mostly use daggers, but can also use onehanded swords, axes and maces. (Still no surprises, I expect.)
They are skilled in controlling foes with stuns, disarms and interrupts, but also have a few magical abilities (such as shadowstep, essentially a short range dimension door, and their stealth, especially when used in mid-combat, is tantamount to invisibility). All these make it possible for them to take on the platemail fellows and the magical dudes with mostly their guile and skillz.
They are also skilled in dealing with traps, and using certain tools like smokebombs and lockpicks.

Shadowdancer seems the closest thing. Maybe adding some dip of Assassin (Evil) or Slayer of Domiel (Good) for the death attacks.

[Melcar]

I read a post in here some time ago, about a powerful sneak attack rogue... the build bassically gave d100 sneak instead of d6 plus it gave I think about 9 more dices than normal at level 20.

By implementing parts of that build I have a rogue level 9 that does 10d10 sneak damage.

I would do somthing like that. and get sa many attacks as possible