Ultra-poison in PF?

[doko239]

Looking at the Concentrate Poison discovery for Alchemists, it seems there might be a hole.

RAW:

Concentrate poison: The alchemist can combine two doses of the same poison to increase their effects. This requires two doses of the poison and 1 minute of concentration. When completed, the alchemist has one dose of poison. The poison's frequency is extended by 50% and the save DC increases by +2. This poison must be used within 1 hour of its creation or it is ruined.

Could you not, say, take four doses of some low-DC low-cost poison (say, Greenblood Oil, 100 gp/dose, DC13 fort, 1 con/round for 4 rounds). Combine them to get two doses of Concentrated Greenblood Oil (DC 15 fort, 1 con/round for 6 rounds), then combine those for Super Secret Concentrated Greenblood Oil (DC 17 fort, 1 con/round for 9 rounds)? And couldn't you simply continue this process indefinitely as long as you have time and materials?

The above would take 3 minutes, so you'd still have 57 minutes to use the poison, assuming the 1 hour time limit doesn't reset every time you make a new batch. To concentrate x3 would take 7 minutes, x4 would take 15, x5 would take 31 (and would require 32 doses of Greenblood Oil, for a final result of DC 23 fort, 1 con/round for 28 rounds) at a cost of 3200 gp and a half hour's work.

If you change the base poison to Giant Wasp poison (210 gp/dose), it becomes DC 28 fort, 1d2 Dex/round for 42 rounds at a cost of 6520 gp. Expensive, but who's gonna make that many DC 28 fort saves?!

Am I wrong on this? Is there errata somewhere I'm not aware of?

[Lapak]

If you change the base poison to Giant Wasp poison (210 gp/dose), it becomes DC 28 fort, 1d2 Dex/round for 42 rounds at a cost of 6520 gp. Expensive, but who's gonna make that many DC 28 fort saves?!

Am I wrong on this? Is there errata somewhere I'm not aware of?I don't think you're missing anything (the stacking effects rules might prevent it, but I don't *think* so) but that's a hideously expensive single-use item with a severe shelf life. You have to sit there and do nothing but play with poison for half an hour close enough to whatever-it-is you want to kill that you can get to it and poison it within another half-hour. That's a very, very strict limitation on when you'd be able to pull this trick off. (And like I said, the end result isn't exactly cheap, even for the effect which you get.)

[Asheram]

*ponders* In PF, is the Astral plane still timeless?

[Aracor]

Unguent of timelessness (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/r-z/unguent-of-timelessness) is still a thing. That would mean your super-poison would last about three days instead of 30 minutes.

[legomaster00156]

Unguent of timelessness (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/r-z/unguent-of-timelessness) is still a thing. That would mean your super-poison would last about three days instead of 30 minutes.
Now you've gotta pass it through your DM.

DM: Ok, so it's wasp venom. That's not living.
Player: But it came from something that was!

Later...

DM: Fine. Now how do you apply it to the poison?
Player: Er...

[Asheram]

Now you've gotta pass it through your DM.

DM: Ok, so it's wasp venom. That's not living.
Player: But it came from something that was!

Later...

DM: Fine. Now how do you apply it to the poison?
Player: Er...

pour in a very fine amount and stir?

[docnessuno]

pour in a very fine amount and stir?
Sure, the only problem is that the frequency went from 1 / round to 1 / 365 rounds.
On the other hand the duration is amazing :smallcool:

[doko239]

Sure, the only problem is that the frequency went from 1 / round to 1 / 365 rounds.
On the other hand the duration is amazing :smallcool:

Actually, that could be perfectly viable; Unguent is a Wondrous Item, meaning it's magical. Dispel magic could nullify the unguent long enough to poison your opponent; after they're dead, who cares if it turns back on?

And actually, it'd make for a VERY funny situation if they got raised; couple months/years down the line, the Unguent wears off naturally and BAM! :smallbiggrin:

[Jeraa]

Expensive, but who's gonna make that many DC 28 fort saves?!

They only need to succeed on a single Fortitude saves to stop taking the damage. Concentrate Poison doesn't change how to cure a poison, it just makes it harder to resist and increases the duration.

So your super dose made from 32 vials of Greenblood Oil is still cured with a single save, and the Super Giant Wasp poison is cure by a single save. (Some poisons do require 2 consecutive saves to cure, but neither of the ones you mentioned do.)

[doko239]

They only need to succeed on a single Fortitude saves to stop taking the damage. Concentrate Poison doesn't change how to cure a poison, it just makes it harder to resist and increases the duration.

So your super dose made from 32 vials of Greenblood Oil is still cured with a single save, and the Super Giant Wasp poison is cure by a single save. (Some poisons do require 2 consecutive saves to cure, but neither of the ones you mentioned do.)

D'oh, I knew I was missing something.

Well, if money was no object, you could always use Tears of Death. :smallbiggrin:

[Asheram]

Actually, that could be perfectly viable; Unguent is a Wondrous Item, meaning it's magical. Dispel magic could nullify the unguent long enough to poison your opponent; after they're dead, who cares if it turns back on?

And actually, it'd make for a VERY funny situation if they got raised; couple months/years down the line, the Unguent wears off naturally and BAM! :smallbiggrin:

I Love that idea xD It's so evil it Must work.

[Slipperychicken]

Drow Poison. Cheapest one in the game at 75gp, and is save-or-lose, so cranking up the DC is great. Or use Oil of Taggit (90gp), if higher save frequency means they get more chances to wake up. If you know a fight's coming, against a strong enemy who isn't immune, you can have a really good chance of one-shotting him.

Does "use" (for the class feature's purposes) mean hit someone with the poison, or just coat a weapon with it?

[kestrel404]

Ultra-poisoner - Psion(Shaper) 1/Alchemist 2 (or 6)

Manifest Ectoplasmic Creation (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/e/ectoplasmic-creation) to create 1 cubic foot of Rainbow Jellyfish Toxin (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/afflictions/poison/rainbow-jellyfish-toxin).
This produces ~960 doses, which is far more than you can possibly use.
Two doses at a time, combine 64 doses into 32 (each with a DC 16 save and duration of 3 rounds).
Then combine those into 16 doses (DC 18, 4 rounds)
Combine those into 8 doses (DC 20, 6 rounds)
Combine those into 4 doses (DC 22, 9 rounds)
Combine those into 2 doses (DC 24, 13 rounds)
Combine those into 1 dose (DC 26, 19 rounds)

Apply to a weapon. By RAW, you now have 1 hour to use this poison (since you've just created this dose, and therefore it will last for an hour).
This whole process takes about 1 hour of prep time. (63 minutes, 2 rounds to be exact)

You can do the same with Purple Worm Poison (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/afflictions/poison/purple-worm-poison), (DC 36, 42 rounds, 2 consecutive saves to cure, 1d3 str damage per round), or Black Marsh Spider Venom (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/afflictions/poison/black-marsh-spider-venom) (DC 26, nearly a save or die due to the confusion)

For the nastier version, take the Sticky Poison (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist/discoveries/paizo---alchemist-discoveries/sticky-poison) discovery at Alchemist 6, coat a weapon, and then dip the weapon in Ungent of Timelessness (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/r-z/unguent-of-timelessness) - which also happens to extend the duration of the manifested poison. Now you have your int mod in uses of this ultra poison, and it will last about 15 days, all for 1 power point and 150/8 (less than 20) GP and 1 power point.