Phenominal cosmic power

[Melcar]

Hello...

Im, trying to compile a list of the most powerful spells en D&D 3.x ed. Im looking for spells from any sources, but within the lines of normal "true" dweomers. That means no epic magic or high elven magic. I might at some point want to include epic and high elven magic, but this list is only going to include 1-9 level spells.

I hope you guys will help me, compile this little list!

Thanks

[Spuddles]

Gate
Shapechange
Time Stop
Wish

What more do you need? :smallbiggrin:

[Uncle Pine]

Only Grease, Color Spray and Ice Assassin come up to me at the moment :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: And Mind Rape. That is definitely a powerful spell.

[Melcar]

True... But was thinking more in line of "rare" or uncommon spells. Thats more fun I think! And when it comes down to it... fun is what its all about!

[nedz]

Silent Image, Dominate Person, Miracle

Ed: also
Glitterdust, Alterself, Polymorph, Polymorph any Object, Shapechange

I'm sure there are more:
Glibness, Heal

[Ravens_cry]

. . . ity, bitty space?:smallbiggrin:

[Randomguy]

Genesis, Simulacrum, Transcend Mortality, Giant Size, Body Outside Body, Dominate Monster, Astral Projection.

[Story]

Wow, Transcend Mortality looks evil. How hard is it to make permanent?

[Emperor Tippy]

Shapechange.

Give me a 1 HD Commoner with but a single casting at CL 17 of that spell and I can (without touching Pun-Pun or Manipulate form) give you a character with every single spell, ability, and power in the game (and technically in all of your imagination as well).

[Arcanist]

Mindrape, Planar Binding and Polymorph any Object.

Personally I'd be okay using just Planar Binding :smallsigh:

[Wings of Peace]

Teleport Through Time.

[Randomguy]

Wow, Transcend Mortality looks evil. How hard is it to make permanent?

Not that hard: Take extend spell and persist spell, take levels in Incantatrix, get a Greater Metamagic Rod of extend spell and use Instant Metamagic to cast Extended Persistant Transcend Mortality every morning for the rest of your life.

The downside is that if it gets dispelled or disjoined, then you die. And maybe if it gets suppressed by an AMF, but that's arguable. So either way, make sure you've got a very high caster level and contingencies against dispelling.

Taking obtain familiar and ranks in UMD and giving it a wand of Last Breath might be a possible solution, so that just in case it does get dispelled you get brought back.

Another trick is to be a Jade Pheonix Mage gish: The class gets an ability that's basically self destruct and then reform. If you use that just before the spell ends, you can avoid getting killed by it. You can only use it once a week, though.

[Slipperychicken]

Shapechange.

Give me a 1 HD Commoner with but a single casting at CL 17 of that spell and I can (without touching Pun-Pun or Manipulate form) give you a character with every single spell, ability, and power in the game (and technically in all of your imagination as well).

Flawless Victory. Tippy has won the thread!

I can no longer contain my feelings, I must say it. Tippy = Win.

[Melcar]

can you explaine how Shapechange can be used to become "SO" powerful? Is there some underlining rules of the spell I have not yet seen?

[Emperor Tippy]

can you explaine how Shapechange can be used to become "SO" powerful? Is there some underlining rules of the spell I have not yet seen?

Shapechange to a Zodar.
Use your Wish SU to Wish up a CL 50 Scroll of Gate.
Change your form into that of a Lillitu.
Activate your Scroll of Gate with your Item Use (Ex) ability.
Gate in two Solars.
Order one Solar to Wish you up a Scroll of Ice Assassin of an Elder Brain that knows the powers Fusion, Astral Seed, and Psychic Chirurgery, and has max ranks in Use Magic Device.
Order the second Solar to Wish you up a Scroll of Shapechange.
Use your Item Use ability to activate your Ice Assassin Scroll.
Order your Ice Assassin Elder Brain to use Fusion on you and then release control to you.
Manifest Astral Seed.
Place the Shapechange scroll next to your Astral Seed.
Kill yourself.
Rise up 10 days later as a permanent fusion.
Manifest Psychic Chirurgery to remove the level lost from Astral Seed.
Use your Scroll of Shapechange to become a Zodar. Repeat the above but change what the Ice Assassin scroll is every time until you have every single thing in the entire game that you want, as technically things like the DC universe are actually reachable in D&D (thank you Wish) you can even do things like create Ice Assassins of Superman.

And it's all done with nothing more than one casting of Shapechange on a 1 HD Human Commoner.

[Spuddles]

How do you cast shapechange on a level one commoner, though?

[nedz]

Good point.

I had assumed that the commoner would read a scroll, presumably one found in the attic.

But that's problematic since the UMD check is quite high. The fact that the skill is cross class is likely irrelevant.

To read the scroll is a UMD check of 37 and a further check is required to emulate the Int or Cha of 19.

[Psyren]

How do you cast shapechange on a level one commoner, though?

His point was that anyone (ab)using Shapechange to its full potential can achieve nigh-unlimited power by RAW, regardless or race, class or level.



To read the scroll is a UMD check of 37 and a further check is required to emulate the Int or Cha of 19.

Said commoner could simply start with (or Wish his way up to) Int 19. Optimizing the skill check itself is doable as well via various tricks and flaws.

[Story]

Are Gate, Planar Binding, etc still OP if you assume that any summoned creature with a Wish SLA has already used it up for the day?

[Radar]

Are Gate, Planar Binding, etc still OP if you assume that any summoned creature with a Wish SLA has already used it up for the day?
They still are simply because of the sheer variety of creatures you can summon. Take Elemental Weird for example (15HD - quite easy to summon): they have a large selection of divination spells as at will free action Su abilities. Ponder on this little gem and realise it's not the only one, if one of the stronger ones.

[nedz]

Said commoner could simply start with (or Wish his way up to) Int 19. Optimizing the skill check itself is doable as well via various tricks and flaws.

Really ?
A level 1 commoner with access to multiple wishes ?
The skill check can be optimised — yes — and easily too — but at level 1 ?

[Rodimal]

. . . ity, bitty space?:smallbiggrin:

Itty bitty living space.:smallcool:

[Spuddles]

Really ?
A level 1 commoner with access to multiple wishes ?
The skill check can be optimised — yes — and easily too — but at level 1 ?

I guess if you assume that every lawful good commoner gets access to 3 wishes via Pazuzu....

[MesiDoomstalker]

Where can one find this infamous Zodar? For, uh, science? :smalltongue:

[Mithril Leaf]

Where can one find this infamous Zodar? For, uh, science? :smalltongue:

Fiend Folio, page 199.

[Melcar]

I got to say, that again within the possibilities of the "raw" rules, it might be possible, but then again so is Pun Pun... I’m pretty sure that a level 1 commoner, would not be, able to pull off the trick, that easy (btw doesn’t Wish cost exp?) and would therefore have numerous Wish scrolls. And you character, being level 1 commoner, would not know about the powers or monsters that you speak of. The Idea is great in theory, but I don’t think too much of it in practice. But that’s I guess is not relevant.

Any other obscure spells out there? The list is so far mostly "Core" spells.
..

[Slipperychicken]

Any other obscure spells out there? The list is so far mostly "Core" spells.
..

WotC learned as they went with 3.5e, because they didn't playtest the damn thing. That's why core contains the most broken/poorly-balanced material, while you tend to find more fun/interesting/balanced options later in the run (Tome of Battle, Incarnum, Factotum, Psionics, etc). Monk, Wizard, Druid, Cleric Fighter... the first classes were the least balanced. Similarly, the gamebreaker spells (Shapechange, Gate, Planar Binding, Polymorph) are mostly in core.

[nedz]

btw doesn’t Wish cost exp?

Zodars get Wish as an Su — once per year. This avoids the xp cost.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Are Gate, Planar Binding, etc still OP if you assume that any summoned creature with a Wish SLA has already used it up for the day?
Not only is it just as powerful, this actually prevents the called creature from breaking the circle and curb-stomping you for the presumption. All he'd normally have to do (barring genies) is wish up an antimagic field and he's not trapped anymore. At least without his wish ability you've got a chance.

They still are simply because of the sheer variety of creatures you can summon. Take Elemental Weird for example (15HD - quite easy to summon): they have a large selection of divination spells as at will free action Su abilities. Ponder on this little gem and realise it's not the only one, if one of the stronger ones.

I don't know that you can call a wierd. It's definitely not a good idea though. Either it's seperated from its pool and dies on the spot, or its pool comes with it and disrupts the magic circle.

It might work if you use the spell on the wierd's home plane though.

[Arcanist]

I guess if you assume that every lawful good commoner gets access to 3 wishes via Pazuzu....

Yep... 1st level Lawful Good Commoner is now the single most powerful build in the history of 3.5 ... Thanks to Tippy :smallsmile:

[Radar]

I don't know that you can call a wierd. It's definitely not a good idea though. Either it's seperated from its pool and dies on the spot, or its pool comes with it and disrupts the magic circle.

It might work if you use the spell on the wierd's home plane though.
You're probably right, but I think it would be possible to prepare it properly. If anything else fails, use Gate to summon creatures with Gate as a SLA - Solars are the most popular choice.