Random Hybrid Ideas?

[Alan_Pehnereas]

Hey, y'all!

I wanna optimize some hybrids between two random classes just for fun! So if you randomly select two hybrids, or pick two things that you're curious if they have any synergy whatsoever, please post!

And if anyone else wants to pick up and try to optimize a random hybrid, please do!

Thanks!
Alan

[Dimers]

I wanna see how Fighter and Psion work together, like, with both sides actually seeing significant use. Let's say tiefling fighter|psion.

[Tegu8788]

That's a rough one. Fighter has no use for Int or Cha, and the Psio really doesn't care about the physical stats. This I think would be what I'm considering as a dual-class hybrid, where you go back and forth between classes in one character.

So, focusing on Str and Int, with a bit of Wis. So, Control when out of weapon's range, then charge in as a Defender, using any standard/minor combos you can to use both sides. Not as familiar with the Psion as I'd like, but Sustain Minor powers would be good, using Standards to keep Marks going. This is kind how I picture the Battlemind concept working with different mechanics.

Obviously, Fighter armor is your Hybrid Talent, and figuring some way to get a better weapliment in your hands. You could MC into a number of classes that have magic weapons that can be used as implements, because I don't really see Swordmage Warding being that helpful.

Race doesn't help Str, and Cha is wasted, but Int is good at least. This would not be my ideal race, Genasi would do better I think. But Tiefling is a favorite of mine, I love Con/Int/Cha races.


Edit: Well, I used the builder to give me a random, and it was actually close to what I was thinking about. Cavalier|Shaman, make it so!

[Rhaegar14]

My thought for the night will be Swordmage/Assassin. I'm looking for ways to get Shadow powers to synergize with my Eladrin Assault Swordmage anyhow haha.

[Tegu8788]

Firstly, is that a Swordmage|Assassin, or a Swordmage/Assassin. The second is much stronger than the first, Dex/Int based class gonna suffer. I'm not an expert, but if you can stack your Shrouds/extra 1d8 onto your mark punishment, that could be pretty good.

[Rhaegar14]

Well, this thread is for Hybrids, so let's go with the Hybrid.

[ghost_warlock]

Go with a classic - the barbarian|monk. :smalltongue:

[Tegu8788]

Well, Barbarian|Monk doesn't seem all that hard. Str|Dex/Con, take advantage of the fact that Barbarian Striker features are built in, and the Monk can use any weapon it's proficient with as a Ki Focus. Grab a nice big weapon, or two if you want to be a Dervisher and focus more on Dex, use charge powers to get into the thick of things, then Monk to lay the damage around. Use can play that a very heavy hitting Monk or a very agile Barbarian. I actually see this as one of the few Fusion style Hybrids. Depending on what you want, you could really go either way. I'd use Hybrid Talent to get Barbarian Armor, but that's me. You'd actually have pretty good AC like this.


Now, for the Assassinmage, that more complicated. Even though the Monk and the Barbarian don't really have common stats, they don't have contradicting stats. Swordmage Warding would be the Hybrid Talent of my choice. The best way I can think of is to use almost exclusively Assassin powers, using Swordmage just as a way to boost AC even further, and Mark to add more teleporting and damage off-turn while using Assassin powers almost exclusively, dumping Int in favor of Dex. This essentially nerfs the Swordmage side. Executioner would be a better option, the extra 1d8 to your Mark MBA being a lot more fun than shrouds, and you could focus exclusively on the Swordmage side, the Assassin's Strike not even requiring a roll.

If it's just Shadow powers you want to roll in, I'd recommend the Cleric, Battle Lore gets you very nice AC, and it's one of the few times I'd actually recommend Channel Divinity as a Hybrid Talent. You'll need to invest in Wis but you can get some nice Shadow powers, a heal with great feat support, and easy access to strong AC. A Hybrid Warlock works in pretty good as well if you can dip into Cha pretty well, there are plenty of builds online about this. Binder powers being particularly good, as Control always helps a ranged Defender, and are Shadow themed.

The absolute best is Swordmage|Wizard, pure Int based. The character builds itself, the Wizard has access to plenty of powers with the Shadow keyword.

[Ulric]

What about Druid-bard?

[Tegu8788]

Nope, nope, I'm taking my ball and going home until someone can suggest how to make my Cavalier|Shaman, then I will get back to trying to fix inherently flawed designs.

[ExemplarofAvg]

Avenger/Paladin?
Be both the Sword in the Dark and the Shield in the Light for your god?

[allonym]

An extremely annoying single target defender/off-defender build using Avenger|Paladin would involve going str/wis, multiclassing Fighter, hybrid talent for Paladin armour, power of skill, mighty challenge, and the usual feats to improve defences and attacks, (with optional extra on bitter challenge and world serpent's grasp,) then taking Overwhelming Strike and Valiant Strike, and taking Oath of the Final Duel, Relentless Stride, Price of Cowardice and Knightly Intercession, then taking the Champion of Order paragon path.
At 11th level, when an enemy violates your mark, you can deal them your divine challenge damage, then make an opportunity attack against them, where you use Overwhelming Strike, with your Oath, and on a hit drag them away from your ally. With Bitter Challenge and WSG, you also get to prone and slow them. If you take Hammer Shock and use a hammer, your Overwhelming Strike will be Rattling, which along with the prone means -4 to hit even if they are still in range. If this causes them to be out of range of their attack, their attack was wasted. You can also stack on one of the punishment stackers like Price of Cowardice, since you still have your immediate action, which could easily save your ally from a brutal ranged attack (-2 to hit from prone, -2 to hit from rattling, -5 to hit from blind). With Certain Justice (e11), you keep an enemy weakened and dazed as long as you have them marked, and your avenger powers help you maintain your divine challenge by keeping you at your challenge/oath's throat. You could also take avenger powers which discourage attacks against you for a catch-22.
However, you will be a little less survivable than a single-classed Paladin, and this build is incredibly feat-intensive. Also, a single-classed Paladin with Champion of Order can also put forced movement onto their MBA mark punishment by taking Lashing Flail, though this build is more accurate and has some extra tricks on top of that.

A similar build can be done by hybriding Cleric for Tactical Warpriest, which comes online at level 16. You lose a number of defender bonuses, but in exchange you get a single attack stat and can use your hybrid talent for something else, as well as obvious leader abilities and various fun tricks. I think they'd both be pretty fun builds, though I prefer the Cleric|Avenger personally.

[Zelkon]

Nope, nope, I'm taking my ball and going home until someone can suggest how to make my Cavalier|Shaman, then I will get back to trying to fix inherently flawed designs.

Make it a paladin, focus on wis and cha. Cavalier won't work well in any situation.

[Tegu8788]

Make it a paladin, focus on wis and cha. Cavalier won't work well in any situation.

No no, after what I made, you have to make mine work. At least the stats line up.

And that Avengadin is very nice looking. That's a very mean set of tricks you've got.

[allonym]

Cavalier|Shaman: I've been wrestling with this and I can't see a way to make it work. Cavalier is awful, though hybriding it actually improves it (gets full strength "mark" punishment and can easily be single stat cha). Shaman uses implement attacks and wisdom, and has absolutely no use for charisma.
Best idea I have is to drop Wis, use Virtuous Strike, take lazy shaman powers and enable while being in melee as a backup defender, using Holy Smite. Go Cha/Int, take Watcher Spirit and hybrid talent for its opportunity action (which is a basic attack granting Effect, so your wisdom is irrelevant), and rely on your int to give you enough AC.
Either take Fortune Blessed (avandra paragon path) or multiclass Bard, take Power of Arcana, White Lotus Riposte/Master Riposte, and powerswap for Dimensional Step at Level 13. You can't take the White Lotus feats and Fortune Blessed at the same time, because Avandra doesn't have the Arcana domain - if you can handwave that, such as by worshipping a pantheon or just not caring, you could do both!
For a workable nova mid paragon, you need an ally with a powerful MBA, then buff them (Wrath of the Gods), stand next to them, use Knight's Defiance (D15) to pull 4 enemies next to you and your ally, then use an action point and Four-Armed is Forewarned (D9) to grant a basic attack against each. Not optimal at all, but it would be very, very funny.
It will still be a pretty awful build, but you knew that this combination would suck. However, you'll have at least 2 encounter heals assuming you took the Virtue of Sacrifice, you'll be able to enable, and you'll have a few tricks, notably a weak catch-22 (White Lotus Master Riposte allows you to use Virtuous Strike as an immediate reaction to attack an enemy who just attacked you, provided you hit them with it last turn. Normal paladins have no use for this, because it doesn't work if you marked them. Your aura is not a mark, so you actually get something a real paladin doesn't).

[allonym]

Druid|Bard: I see roughly two ways to make something of this combination. The first is to take implement powers from both classes, go Wis/Cha dual stat (probably a Deva), and maybe a songbow for some ranged weapon powers if you're feeling adventurous. Ensure you are a Prescient bard. Your NADs will suck, but that doesn't matter. Sit in the back line and cast magic at things. You'll be relatively good at control and you'll be able to switch from control to leading-with-a-side-of-control depending on what the battle requires. No fancy tricks, and you might be a little weaker than either of your base classes, but you will be more flexible. Very easy to build, very easy to play, pick what you want and go for it.
The problem is that such a build is not really both a druid and a bard, but rather has the choice to be one or the other at any given time. If you wanted something which was a more esoteric, greater-than-the-sum-of-its-parts deal, well...

Second possibility: Some beast form druid powers are MBAs. Skald bard support is based around doing MBAs. Take Skald Training and an at-will and dailies that boost your skald's aura (you want Song of Serendipity). That way, when you use your beast form MBA (Savage Rend or Grasping Claws) you also get to buff an ally. Doing your leading alongside your controlling! Sort of.
There is a huge problem with this idea. You will not be able to use the wonderful no-action MBA triggered bard encounter powers, because they specify an MBA with a weapon and your beastform MBAs are all implement powers.
Essentially, other classes who get their own Basic-Attack power which is an actual weapon attack will be able to make more of the fake-skald hybrid than you can for this reason - Warlocks, Paladins, even Seekers. On the other hand, you will be a bear who sings while mauling people.

As an aside, I have relatively little knowledge of Sentinel druids or their hybrid, but they would probably be fine and even improve your ability as a leader over a base druid, but only for the first idea. A Wis/Cha Sentinel Druid|Bard would be a control-heavy leader.

[Tegu8788]

Yep. I'm not the king anymore. The singing bear would be hilarious to watch. Defenses wouldn't be great, but the Shaman's never are. Executioner's also make decent fake-skalds.

The Druid is an interesting case, because of how the beast form is so different from anything else. I'm not aware of any other class that can shapeshift at-will at level 1. I've never actually made it completely, but I've thought about the "Wall of Fur" build, using a Sentinel|Beast Ranger with a Fey Beast Companion with some Arcane MC for a familiar. If you're a human, grab Pack Outcast or Werewolf and at level one that's 5 furballs under your command.

[allonym]

I do love messing around with hybrids. I particularly like all the different cleric|invoker builds that can be created. I also like trying to improve the Seeker by means of hybrid - a seeker|ranger can be pretty fun, and a seeker|bard works, though it tends not to be any better a controller than a straight seeker. Anyone have any other ideas for working the Seeker into a hybrid, apart from just going |Executioner for +1/2/3d8? I may work on a Seeker|Cleric build if I need to procrastinate more.

[Tegu8788]

I have had fun making Divine Dwarf Hybrids, Cleric goes well with just about everything, and can easily supplement the other three roles pretty well. I've heard good things about the Runepriest, but it's a bit more complicated and doesn't get the free armor boost, so I haven't played with it as much.

[allonym]

Urgh, runepriests. As far as I can see they would allow for some useful, if rapidly very boring, benefits for a defender hybrid, and bring scale proficiency to the table to avoid having to use hybrid talent for armour. But runepriests are another reason I'm so iffy about PHB3. They are one huge missed opportunity - an opportunity for a truenamer feel, probably int-primary, with dual-use abilities and a real divine scholar feel to them. Instead they are str-primary for some unknown reason and feel bland and uninspired. I honestly don't ever see myself enjoying playing one.

I may dust off an old madness-themed cleric|invoker who ended up deliberately dazing herself every turn for amusing bonuses. Not exactly optimal but very weird and wonderful. I originally envisioned it as being a dwarf, but I ended up going human to more easily justify taking the Aberrant Dragonmark of Madness.

[ExemplarofAvg]

So, I just got my hands on Dragon #400.
Hybrid a Vampire/Rogue or /Paladin, /Fighter, /Cleric, /Anything Really.
I think it would be neat to see.
Vampire/Avenger, Shadowy Agent of the Raven Queen.
Vampire/Assassin, Last Shadow.

[Paragon468]

My DM isn't letting his players use Swordmages for story reasons, so I made one from scratch: a hybrid Wizard/Avenger.

I took the Eladrin Sword Wizardry feat from Arcane Power, as well as Dual Implement Spellcaster (I forget what book it was in). The wizard aspect focused a lot on Wisdom anyway (the Avenger's primary attack stat), so focusing on Intelligence and Wisdom worked wonderfully. I took the Hybrid Talent feat to get the Avenger's Armor of Faith class feature, so now I basically have a Wizard who casts spells through his blade in the middle of the fray of battle... A melee based war-Wizard.

Using the swords as implements was wonderful as I can still add the enhancement bonus from it to my Avenger powers. Pretty nice character fluff wise, and he has the hit points, AC, and attack power needed to be right in there with the fighter of the party.

[Sol]

Re: the Singing Bear, the wording on many of the triggered skald powers mandates that you make a MBA with a weapon, but does not require that it be a weapon attack. The difference is important. If you use any sort of weapliment (staff being the most likely), you have satisfied the requirement of such phrasing, as you made a MBA with a weapon, even if you used that weapon as an implement.

I kind of want to do this now.

[Treblain]

I've used a hybrid Battlemind|Rogue (Psychic Rogue) to some success, so I thought I'd talk about it. It's a weird combo, since they have no real stat synergy, but it ends up being one of the most "cobbled-together" hybrids that actually fits together. The basic ideas:


Be a half-elf to get Eldritch Strike, take Defending Dabbler so it now has a CON-based MBA that marks.
Take Risky Shift to shift two squares with Blurred Step-one of the few shift-boosting feats. This has an additional bonus in that granting CA doesn't stack with itself, so at times it has no real drawback to use.
It can gain CA for sneak attacks in several ways: easier flanking via Risky Shift, the Deadly Draw feat + Eldritch Strike sliding, the Pursuing Step feat.
Lightning Rush often provokes OAs, rogues are good at avoiding them.
Take minor action/reaction rogue encounter powers to get the most out of your action economy. Save all your power points for Lightning Rush.
You run through a lot of HP, but the Amulet of Life's power lets you spend two surges in one go, and you have plenty of surges due to CON primary.


I haven't played it in a while, but it was pretty fun. There's a lot of flexibility; you can go round-by-round choosing to deal damage, impose penalties on attack rolls, tank, slide enemies around even on OAs and MBAs with Eldritch Strike, and ruin the DM's day with a Lightning Rush.

[Tegu8788]

@ExemplarofAvg-The Vampire is a horrific class, that fails on so many levels, being a late addition V-class, in the front line with only 2 surges, not to mention having Dexterity implement powers. But make it a hybrid, and it becomes functional. The "Source" Vampire feats are also very nice touches, excellent for the hybrids.

Add in Rogue gives you the Dex/Cha you want, is pretty good with striking. Sneaking around, stabbing things, then licking the blade clean, fluff isn't hard to see. You have to deal with the weapon/implement issues, but other than that it seems good to me.

Add in Paladin and go full hog on the Charisma. The extra armor heals keep you from getting hurt and needing the surges, but then again, you're a defender. Dark Beckoning is a great way to get your enemy to where you want them, and while your Challenge is weaker your Sanctions will be very strong. Not worrying about the radiant damage is golden.

Add in Fighter and focus on Dex, and you could do something, I guess. I'm not the expert on Fighters, but I'm playing in a game with one that's using a spiked chain, and he's pretty good. Again, a defender with 2 surges has innate trouble, but if you can get an implement/weapon combo to work, you could

Add in Cleric and you could try Dex/Wis, Str/Cha, or Str/Dex. I'm not sure if the Strength Cleric is still a trap or not. Wis/Cha is a bad idea. Cleric is always a good hybrid though, Battle Cleric's Lore is just glorious, and there are plenty of Cleric options to take when you only have poor vampire options.

I suspect that Monk would make a good mix, both being Dexterity classes that use implements, and are Strikers with strong Controller leanings. Fluffed as someone that has gained control over the darkness inside them and now uses their powers to fight evil.

@Paragon-Sounds like you've figured out how to make the thematic character you want. I'm not convinced that the Swordmage is the best representation of a sword wielding wizard, but it sounds like what you've made is pretty sweet. I approve!

@Treblain-I'm normally a little hesitant when none of the stats line up, but it seems you've made good. As long as the stats aren't conflicting, things can work. Looks like you've used one class to compensate for the other. And Half-Elf Eldritch Strike isn't just a hybrid trick, but it never hurts when a hybrid can take advantage of existing optimization tricks.

@Sol-If I remember correctly, they just mention hitting an enemy with a basic attack, so any class that has MBA or RBA replacement power could trigger the Skald at-wills. Sorcerer, Psion, Warlock, Avenger, Wizard, if the power says it "takes the place of" or "can be used as" then the Skald aura should trigger off it. Which means all the beast form druid powers should allow you to play your singing bear. Bonus points if you have a gnome barbarian that rides you around, and you take advantage of lazy skald powers.

[Sol]

@tegu the skald at-will stance-like powers which grant temps or attack bonuses or whatnot are indeed triggered merely on hitting a target with a basic attack. The skald no-action encounter powers, such as the dimensional step line, require the attack to be made with a weapon.

So top of the line choices are probably an alfsair spear or vanguard staff for a charge build, or a staff of the serpent for anything else.

A pixie version turning into some sort of songbird and swooping in to peck at eyes could be entertaining as well. I'm not entirely certain what to do with things that add +[W] damage to beast form implement melee attacks (surprising charge, dimensional step), but I'd imagine it just works the way it says it does, and thus makes your weapon die actually relevant (if only in a small way). A savage rend charge with claw gloves, streak of light, surprising charge, a horned helm, lesser dimensional step and an alfsair pike would be 1d8+3d10+1d6 damage.

[Tegu8788]

You grab mark of the storm and go to town, fly speed of 7, slide 1 on lesser ringing weapon (and bard feats love sliding....). I can see it being a good back up leader and melee controller.

[Nachyoz]

I've played a Sorcerer|Monk hybrid in a short campaign. Flurry of Blows triggers on any attack, not just monk powers so it can combine nicely. So the general idea was to use Sorcerer powers for high damage (+Cha and +Dex/+Str) then flurry for more damage or to kill minions. Plus you can use the monk powers to move in and out of combat as needed. I also took Sorcerous Blade Channeling to use some ranged powers in melee. It was pretty fun to play although ended up needing Dex, Cha and Str.

[Sol]

I've played a Sorcerer|Monk hybrid in a short campaign. Flurry of Blows triggers on any attack, not just monk powers so it can combine nicely. So the general idea was to use Sorcerer powers for high damage (+Cha and +Dex/+Str) then flurry for more damage or to kill minions. Plus you can use the monk powers to move in and out of combat as needed. I also took Sorcerous Blade Channeling to use some ranged powers in melee. It was pretty fun to play although ended up needing Dex, Cha and Str.

From PHB3 page 146:

MONASTIC TRADITION (HYBRID)
Choose a Monastic Tradition option. You gain only the Flurry of Blows power associated with that option. Your Flurry of Blows power is triggered only when you hit with a monk power or monk paragon path power during your turn. You are considered to have that option for the purpose of meeting prerequisites.

Please keep in mind that the Character Builder is not a rules source. It does not correctly modify any of the class features formatted as powers to reflect hybrid restrictions. Even the Hybrid Monk compendium entry has the relevant rules text.

[Tegu8788]

The new elemental Cha based monk would do pretty good as a multitarget striker, easily able to move around, and with pretty good AC considering the heavy Dex.

[allonym]

The new elemental Cha based monk would do pretty good as a multitarget striker, easily able to move around, and with pretty good AC considering the heavy Dex.

I do not believe that a Hybrid version of the Desert Wind monastic discipline exists. To the best of my knowledge, only the Centred Breath and Stone Fist disciplines have had Hybrid writeups. It may appear in Dragon Magazine, but I wouldn't hold my breath, sadly.

[Tegu8788]

From my interpretations they don't need their own hybrid write-ups, you simply do to the new ones the same as the old ones, given they are written in the same format.

I could be wrong, however. Similar to how we don't need a new write up for each Warlock Pact, I don't think we need something new for each Monastic Discipline.

[allonym]

Looking at it, I believe there may be room to interpret either way. The Hybrid Warlock instructs you that the Pacts section "Functions as the Warlock class feature" with the exception of the boon; it also does not reproduce the text of any pacts. The Hybrid Monk does not state that it functions as the Monk class feature, and goes on to delineate the two Hybrid monk traditions and what they grant you. It does, however, contain the text "Choose a Monastic Tradition option. You gain only the Flurry of Blows power associated with that option." This is certainly broad enough to tell you what you get and do not get from each Monastic Tradition, but it does not make any actual reference to the original Monk class.

My personal feeling is that, by strictest RAW, you can only choose the two traditions listed under Hybrid Monk, as that section is what is being referred to by the phrase "Choose a Monastic Tradition option." since there is no reference to the Monk class. I would also never enforce such a rule, as I would consider it an unintentional quirk introduced through somewhat clumsy wording and construction of the Hybrid Monk, and because I would enjoy looking at constructing an Iron Soul Monk|Defender hybrid.

[Nachyoz]

From PHB3 page 146:

MONASTIC TRADITION (HYBRID)
Choose a Monastic Tradition option. You gain only the Flurry of Blows power associated with that option. Your Flurry of Blows power is triggered only when you hit with a monk power or monk paragon path power during your turn. You are considered to have that option for the purpose of meeting prerequisites.

Please keep in mind that the Character Builder is not a rules source. It does not correctly modify any of the class features formatted as powers to reflect hybrid restrictions. Even the Hybrid Monk compendium entry has the relevant rules text.

Heh, thought that seemed a little too good. Even minus the flurry damage, the combo worked fairly well. Never felt like it was worse than the rest of the party.

[Paragon468]

Heh, thought that seemed a little too good. Even minus the flurry damage, the combo worked fairly well. Never felt like it was worse than the rest of the party.

Yes, that does sound like it would be quite fun to play, and not at all ineffective. I might have to try that sometime.

[Sol]

Heh, thought that seemed a little too good. Even minus the flurry damage, the combo worked fairly well. Never felt like it was worse than the rest of the party.

Yeah, wasn't trying to rain on your parade too much :) There is some stat synergy, particularly if your DM lets you make a CHA/DEX sorc/elemental monk hybrid. And the two are both implement strikers with a heavy emphasis on bursts/blasts, so the combination makes a lot of sense mechanically, even if the two striker features don't stack. Neither side loses very much by hybriding, so really you just end up down one feat (assuming you take HT eventually) to expand your power choices.

[Tegu8788]

The Dex/Cha/Str build is too MAD for my taste, but there isn't a ton of riders, which helps hybrids. The burst/blast nature does help keep the character a multi-target front-line striker.