Isn't Elven Thinblade uniquely awesome?

[odigity]

Races of the Wild, pg166

It has all the best qualities of the rapier and longsword, with none of the drawbacks:

- 1d8 dmg (like longsword)
- 18-20/x2 crit range (like rapier)
- one-handed, but allows wielding with two hands (like longsword)
- allows using with weapon finesse (like rapier)

So it's the only weapon I know of which you can use Weapon Finesse on and Power Attack with both hands for x2 dmg at the same time.

Now, you might wonder who would want to do both at the same time, since WF is usually for people who dump Str, and you need Str 13 for Power Attack... unless you dip one level of Monk with the Overwhelming Attack fighting style from Unearthed Arcana, pg52, which gives you Power Attack regardless of whether you meet the requirements.

And that's how my friend arrived at:

Beguiler 1 / Swashbuckler 3 / Fighter (Hit-and-Run Tactics variant) 1 / Monk 1 / Abjurant Champion 5 / Swiftblade 9, wielding an Elven Thinblade with Str 10.

Now to go crit-fishing...

[Hiro Protagonest]

Elven thinblade sucks. Spiked Chain and Elven Courtblade are better. And then, only if you absolutely need Power Attack and Weapon Finesse.

[Morcleon]

Races of the Wild, pg166

It has all the best qualities of the rapier and longsword, with none of the drawbacks:

- 1d8 dmg (like longsword)
- 18-20/x2 crit range (like rapier)
- one-handed, but allows wielding with two hands (like longsword)
- allows using with weapon finesse (like rapier)

So it's the only weapon I know of which you can use Weapon Finesse on and Power Attack with both hands for x2 dmg at the same time.

Now, you might wonder who would want to do both at the same time, since WF is usually for people who dump Str, and you need Str 13 for Power Attack... unless you dip one level of Monk with the Overwhelming Attack fighting style from Unearthed Arcana, pg52, which gives you Power Attack regardless of whether you meet the requirements.

And that's how my friend arrived at:

Beguiler 1 / Swashbuckler 3 / Fighter (Hit-and-Run Tactics variant) 1 / Monk 1 / Abjurant Champion 5 / Swiftblade 9, wielding an Elven Thinblade with Str 10.

Now to go crit-fishing...

Spiked chain and Elven Courtblade (RoW) both allow Weapon Finesse and Power Attack.

Take a thinblade/courtblade and tack on some keen, serrated (Mercenaries) and kaorti resin (WotC Web Enhancement) and you've got yourself a 13-20/x4 crit range. :smallamused::smallbiggrin:

[Urpriest]

Elven thinblade sucks. Spiked Chain and Elven Courtblade are better. And then, only if you absolutely need Power Attack and Weapon Finesse.

Elven Courtblade is more damaging, but Elven Thinblade has the advantage that you can do other things with your hand if you feel the need. You're buying versatility for very low drop in damage.

[Morcleon]

Elven Courtblade is more damaging, but Elven Thinblade has the advantage that you can do other things with your hand if you feel the need. You're buying versatility for very low drop in damage.

Taking a hand off or putting a hand back on a 2H weapon is a free action. Though thinblade is (slightly) better on average for such things, as you can hold stuff in one hand, then still attack.

[Saintheart]

It's sort of like saying the Bastard Sword is awesome. Both of them require you to give up a precious feat slot for Exotic Weapon Proficiency for a questionable return. IIRC even elves don't automatically get proficiency with it by RAW. You have much better return spending those feats on raising the number you put after the plus sign in the weapon's damage dice, not changing the number that comes before it.

[Morcleon]

It's sort of like saying the Bastard Sword is awesome. Both of them require you to give up a precious feat slot for Exotic Weapon Proficiency for a questionable return. IIRC even elves don't automatically get proficiency with it by RAW. You have much better return spending those feats on raising the number you put after the plus sign in the weapon's damage dice, not changing the number that comes before it.

The reason it's good is because it allows you to use two hands for 1.5x Str to damage, while also allowing Weapon Finesse and double Power Attack damage, and having an 18-20/x2 crit. Properly optimized for a crit-fisher, it's probably one of the best non-reach exotic weapons out there.

[Hirax]

The problem is that the strategies the weapon is good for aren't all that good in the first place. Sure, it can make them better, but between needing power attack, the TWF chain, exotic weapon proficiency, and weapon finesse, the build is going to be a feat starved, and suffer awful to-hit penalties unless shock trooper is adopted or power attack is never used.

[odigity]

Elven thinblade sucks. Spiked Chain and Elven Courtblade are better. And then, only if you absolutely need Power Attack and Weapon Finesse.

Forgot Spiked Chain meets the same criteria, but there are reasons why it might not be suitable (both fluff and mechanic-wise). It's nice to have the option of getting those properties in a traditional sword-ish weapon. And yes, Courtblade is the same except for +1 dmg avg, but you lose the flexibility of being able to attack with one hand.


Take a thinblade/courtblade and tack on some keen, serrated (Mercenaries) and kaorti resin (WotC Web Enhancement) and you've got yourself a 13-20/x4 crit range. :smallamused::smallbiggrin:

Never heard of Mercenaries till you mentioned it. A quick search turned up the first few pages of a PDF, didn't see mention anywhere else. Seems really, really obscure.

And I don't want to go to Kaorti extremes. :) Keen is definitely going to happen, of course -- possibly with an Eternal Wand of Dolorous Blow for auto-confirm.


Elven Courtblade is more damaging, but Elven Thinblade has the advantage that you can do other things with your hand if you feel the need. You're buying versatility for very low drop in damage.

Exactly. Well worth it in my opinion, especially for this character, that is very much about versatility (and is a spellcaster). Likely will have a wand in the other hand quite often.


Taking a hand off or putting a hand back on a 2H weapon is a free action. Though thinblade is (slightly) better on average for such things, as you can hold stuff in one hand, then still attack.

If you need to open a door, sure. If you want to keep something else in the other hand while you fight, then no.


It's sort of like saying the Bastard Sword is awesome. Both of them require you to give up a precious feat slot for Exotic Weapon Proficiency for a questionable return. IIRC even elves don't automatically get proficiency with it by RAW. You have much better return spending those feats on raising the number you put after the plus sign in the weapon's damage dice, not changing the number that comes before it.

I usually frown on spending a feat on XWP, but for this weapon and this character, I think it's worth it. It seems the best way to make him effective at combat without changing him to be Str-based, or adding TWF + precision dmg, neither of which we have room (or desire) for in this build.


The reason it's good is because it allows you to use two hands for 1.5x Str to damage, while also allowing Weapon Finesse and double Power Attack damage, and having an 18-20/x2 crit. Properly optimized for a crit-fisher, it's probably one of the best non-reach exotic weapons out there.

That's what I was thinking. Very much a have-your-cake-and-eat-it-too weapon, without Spiked Chain cheese.

PS-If the cashier tries to upsell you on a wand chamber... say yes.

[Morcleon]

The problem is that the strategies the weapon is good for aren't all that good in the first place. Sure, it can make them better, but between needing power attack, the TWF chain, exotic weapon proficiency, and weapon finesse, the build is going to be a feat starved, and suffer awful to-hit penalties unless shock trooper is adopted or power attack is never used.

Why TWF? :smallconfused: It's best for a crit build, especially in gestalt, or if you get extra feats (PF feats, flaws, etc). Crit builds can do quite a bit, when done properly.

[odigity]

The problem is that the strategies the weapon is good for aren't all that good in the first place. Sure, it can make them better, but between needing power attack, the TWF chain, exotic weapon proficiency, and weapon finesse, the build is going to be a feat starved, and suffer awful to-hit penalties unless shock trooper is adopted or power attack is never used.

No TWF. He's not the primary or even secondary melee char in the party. He's thematically a Beguiler Gish, who's going to use his access to Haste to get into Swiftblade and super-charge the whole party, while using his Illus/Ench both in and out of combat. The blade + XWP/WF/PA is a the minimum price to have at least some melee fun in combat in addition to the rest.

If you're interested, here's the feat list planned for levels 1-15:

Free from classes: Bounding Assult, Power Attack, Spring Attack, Weapon Finesse

Chose for slots: Arcane Strike, Combat Casting, Dodge, Exotic WP, Keen Intellect, Mobile Spellcasting, Mobility, Obtain Familiar, Steady Concentration, Versatile Spellcaster

[Spuddles]

That the thinblade is considered good only speaks to how bad and unimaginitve most exotic weapons are.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Alright. I'm not going to say that it is completely and utterly worthless. You are, however, way overestimating it. It is not "uniquely awesome". It is "halfway decent for a handful of poorly supported fighting styles".

Because seeing your build and feat selection, that's what it is. A poorly supported "zip around the battlefield" style.

[Twilightwyrm]

If we are talking purely in terms of the ability to weapon finesse and power attack, with larger threat range, technically the Thinblade and Courtblade win out over the Spiked Chain, (for elves and half-elves anyways) if only because the feat you take to get them (Improved Familiarity for Elf/Half-Elf characters) gives you three (or more!) weapon proficiencies for the price of one feat, verses the Spiked Chain, which requires a feat that gives you access to only one weapon. The Spiked Chain does, of course, have a number of other...advantages (reach, and tripping ability among other things). This being said, unless you want a shield, or to TWF, the Courtblade is generally the better option.

[Spuddles]

If we are talking purely in terms of the ability to weapon finesse and power attack, with larger threat range, technically the Thinblade and Courtblade win out over the Spiked Chain, (for elves and half-elves anyways) if only because the feat you take to get them (Improved Familiarity for Elf/Half-Elf characters) gives you three (or more!) weapon proficiencies for the price of one feat, verses the Spiked Chain, which requires a feat that gives you access to only one weapon. The Spiked Chain does, of course, have a number of other...advantages (reach, and tripping ability among other things). This being said, unless you want a shield, or to TWF, the Courtblade is generally the better option.

It also means you have to be an elf.

[Morcleon]

It also means you have to be an elf.

So? Elves can have some pretty cool stuff (Eternal Blade, anyone? :smallcool:)

[Answerer]

If we are talking purely in terms of the ability to weapon finesse and power attack, with larger threat range, technically the Thinblade and Courtblade win out over the Spiked Chain, (for elves and half-elves anyways) if only because the feat you take to get them (Improved Familiarity for Elf/Half-Elf characters) gives you three (or more!) weapon proficiencies for the price of one feat, verses the Spiked Chain, which requires a feat that gives you access to only one weapon. The Spiked Chain does, of course, have a number of other...advantages (reach, and tripping ability among other things). This being said, unless you want a shield, or to TWF, the Courtblade is generally the better option.
Having proficiency in three (or more) different weapons is meaningless; you'll rarely if ever use more than one different sort of weapon. Meanwhile, the Spiked Chain is a massively better weapon than any of the other three (or more).


So? Elves can have some pretty cool stuff (Eternal Blade, anyone? :smallcool:)
Eternal Blade 10 is great; the levels below that are cool, but not amazing.

At any rate, that's one cool thing. Elven Generalist is cool-ish I suppose, but a Wizard isn't going to take any special proficiencies most of the time. Other than that, you have... Champion of Corellon Larethian, for Dex-to-damage-that-you-really-should-not-have-to-work-this-hard-to-get-oh-wait-Shadow-Blade-ta-da? Aaaand... -2 Con. Always with the -2 Con.

[Wings of Peace]

I'm a fan of the Elven Thinblade personally but only when I want PA chars with high dex because they don't wear armor for character concept reasons. Or whenever I want to build Kenpachi from Bleach.

[Mithril Leaf]

There are many things that make the Elven Thinblade neither unique, nor awesome. Namely the fact that everything it can do, the spiked chain can do better and the fact that it's based on Elven weaponsmithing. It does work for the very specific character build you've created though, so congratulations on that.

[SowZ]

I think the Thinblade can be quite good if you have some way to get a free exotic weapon prof. like Kensai Fighter ACF or, (for whatever reason, don't ask me,) you go Exoticist or somesuch.

[Thespianus]

Beguiler 1 / Swashbuckler 3 / Fighter (Hit-and-Run Tactics variant) 1 / Monk 1 / Abjurant Champion 5 / Swiftblade 9, wielding an Elven Thinblade with Str 10.

How do this character get into Abjurant Champion? To get into the PrC, you need to be able to cast 1st level spells, and at least one Abjuration spell.

I did a quick run through of the Beguiler spells at level 1, and I can't find any Abjuration spells there, but I might be mistaken...

However, I would like to chime in on the Elven Thinblade and its off-hand buddy Elven Lightblade for TWF-crit based builds. Spiked Chain might be mechanically better, but the Elven blades are a LOT cooler, IMHO.

Elven Thinblade/Light TWF-builds based on Sneak Attacks, Craven, Telling Blow and Daring Outlaw (Swashbuckler/Rogue) was a long time favorite with me. Never tried to build one with a foot in Wizard/AbjChamp/Swiftblade though. Might be a fun excercise, but will probably end up magnificently feat starved AND mechanically inefficient :)

EDIT: I was right. Getting the Elven XWP, Dodge, Mobility, and Combat Casting prerequisites was very hard, unless using Flaws and builds based on getting Feats from Magic Items. Wanting to add Daring Outlaw and Telling Blow on top of that was just plain greedy and adding Craven became a excercise in futility. ;)

[odigity]

How do this character get into Abjurant Champion? To get into the PrC, you need to be able to cast 1st level spells, and at least one Abjuration spell.

I did a quick run through of the Beguiler spells at level 1, and I can't find any Abjuration spells there, but I might be mistaken...

Dammit. Missed that. Grrr... back to the drawing board.

[odigity]

How do this character get into Abjurant Champion? To get into the PrC, you need to be able to cast 1st level spells, and at least one Abjuration spell.

I did a quick run through of the Beguiler spells at level 1, and I can't find any Abjuration spells there, but I might be mistaken...

Ok, as quick fix, if he dipped a level of something (Sorcerer, Wizard) with it's own spell pool and access to an Abj spell, could he use that to meet the qualification, but still have Abj Ch progress his Beguiler spellcasting?

[Pilo]

You can’t add the bonus from Power Attack to the damage dealt with a light weapon [...].

Source: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#powerAttack

[nyjastul69]

Taking a hand off or putting a hand back on a 2H weapon is a free action. Though thinblade is (slightly) better on average for such things, as you can hold stuff in one hand, then still attack. Where do the rules state that reacquiring your grip is a free action?

[Cikomyr]

Ok, as quick fix, if he dipped a level of something (Sorcerer, Wizard) with it's own spell pool and access to an Abj spell, could he use that to meet the qualification, but still have Abj Ch progress his Beguiler spellcasting?

It would probably be more effective to quick-dip into a Duskblade than a pure spellcasting cast, no?

[Spuddles]

Where do the rules state that reaquiring your grip is a free action?

It doesn't. It was in a FAQ post. Funny how FAQ is only RAW when it increases permissivity of rules.

[Heilmut Von L.]

Spiked chain and Elven Courtblade (RoW) both allow Weapon Finesse and Power Attack.

Take a thinblade/courtblade and tack on some keen, serrated (Mercenaries) and kaorti resin (WotC Web Enhancement) and you've got yourself a 13-20/x4 crit range. :smallamused::smallbiggrin:

Is it a manual?


I think the Thinblade can be quite good if you have some way to get a free exotic weapon prof. like Kensai Fighter ACF or, (for whatever reason, don't ask me,) you go Exoticist or somesuch.

Where can I find that acf?

[odigity]

It would probably be more effective to quick-dip into a Duskblade than a pure spellcasting cast, no?

I was just looking at that as an opiont, and it fits very well. Still, the question remains:
1) Can I dip Duskblade to qualify for Abj Ch, then have Abj Ch advance Beguiler?
2) Can I still use the Adj Ch special abilities (like swift-casting abjuration spells) on the few Duskblade spells I get, even if I'm advancing Beguiler instead?

[Cikomyr]

1) As long as Duskblade gives you abj power, I don't see why not. There is not rule that says you have to increase one spellcasting over another.

2) again, I don't see why not. What abj spells the Beguiler have access to?

[Snowbluff]

Where can I find that acf?

I think he means the PF Archetype.

Also, both of these are not worth the feat. Scimitar/Falchion do 1 less damage. Woop de freaking-do! I could pick up Weapon Specialization and get more done.

[odigity]

I think he means the PF Archetype.

Also, both of these are not worth the feat. Scimitar/Falchion do 1 less damage. Woop de freaking-do! I could pick up Weapon Specialization and get more done.

You cannot weapon finess a scimitar -- well, not unless you grab the Dervish PrC.

[odigity]

1) As long as Duskblade gives you abj power, I don't see why not. There is not rule that says you have to increase one spellcasting over another.

Well, in this case he'd use one level of Duskblade to qualify for Abj Ch, then use Abj Ch to advance Beguiler, while also using the Abj Ch special abilities on an Abj spells he casts from either.

Though Dusklade only has one 1st lvl Abj spell (Deflection, Lesser) which he'll probably never use. :) If Duskblade had Shield, this would be a match made in heaven. Beguiler doesn't get it.


2) again, I don't see why not. What abj spells the Beguiler have access to?

First one appears at level 3: Dispel Magic

It's great, and being able to swift cast it will be fun. But boy, it would be nice if he had Shield. Not only would be enormously beneficial to use (especially Abjurant Armor), but it would satisfy the PrC preq.

[Darrin]

- 1d8 dmg (like longsword)
- 18-20/x2 crit range (like rapier)
- one-handed, but allows wielding with two hands (like longsword)
- allows using with weapon finesse (like rapier)


You can get a weapon with the same properties by making a Feycraft Bastard Sword (DMG II p. 275). Still costs a feat, EWP, to use without penalty. The only advantage the thinblade has is it's 1500 GP cheaper, and you can take Improved Weapon Familiarity (Complete Warrior) to get EWP on the thinblade, lightblade, and courtblade all at once.


Where do the rules state that reacquiring your grip is a free action?

It's not in the FAQ, it's actually from this Rules of the Game: Attacks of Opportunity (Part Two) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20041102a).

Here's the relevant text:




Although the rules don't mention it, letting go of a two-handed weapon with one hand or putting a free hand back on the weapon is a free action for you. Drawing the smaller weapon requires an action, but if you have the Quick Draw feat, it's a free action. Note that you can take a free action only during your turn.

If you want to use this trick, you must draw the smaller weapon while it's still your turn. When you do so, you don't threaten any area with your larger weapon until you wield it in two hands again. To resume using the bigger weapon on your turn, you'll have to drop the smaller weapon (a free action) to free up your hand for the bigger weapon.

Weapons such as the spiked gauntlet or armor spikes are ready for use whenever you have a free hand, and you don't need to drop them to use your hand for something else.

(emphasis added)

He may mention it in another article, but I think his reasoning is when gripping a two-handed weapon (longbow), you can take one hand off to retrieve ammunition (free action) and then regrip to shoot, so why not a polearm?



Where can I find that acf?

The "Kensai" is a variant fighter class (not an ACF) published in Dragon #310. It is proficient in all simple weapons, light armor, and a single martial or exotic weapon that represents the kensai's chosen weapon for certain class features. (This Kensai predates, and has nothing to do with, the Kensai PrC published later in Complete Warrior.)



I did a quick run through of the Beguiler spells at level 1, and I can't find any Abjuration spells there, but I might be mistaken...


You missed undetectable alignment, a 1st level spell that all beguilers know and can cast. So no need to muck around with Duskblade, Arcane Disciple, etc.

[HeadlessMermaid]

You can’t add the bonus from Power Attack to the damage dealt with a light weapon

Source: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#powerAttack
Elven Thinblade is one-handed, not light.

[odigity]

You missed undetectable alignment, a 1st level spell that all beguilers know and can cast. So no need to muck around with Duskblade, Arcane Disciple, etc.

You, sir, just rescued my Saturday. I owe you a digital beer.

[Snowbluff]

You cannot weapon finess a scimitar -- well, not unless you grab the Dervish PrC.

Buy a rapier then. While you can't get x1.5 Str with it (not that it matters if you are a Dex character), it can still power attack for x2

In the grand scheme of things it does not matter anyway. What you really want is a weapon from the Shadow Hand group, which gets Dex added to damage. Weapon Finesse is a feat tax should try and avoid, since it merely replaces a better stat (in terms of damage output) for a defensive stat.

[Cikomyr]

You cannot weapon finess a scimitar -- well, not unless you grab the Dervish PrC.

Dervish PrC? I never heard of it?

Oh, wait, is that the "Drizz't Clone" PrC?

[DeltaEmil]

The dervish prestice class is from Complete Warrior, and lacks stuff that has to do with Two-Weapon Fighting to be some sort of Drizzt-emulating prestige class. The dervish is all about prancing around with a scimitar and sometimes doing a full attack while moving, and being a little bit fast.

What you might mean is the tempest prestige class from Complete Adventurer, which is about two-weapon fighting.

[Morcleon]

Is it a manual?


It's a third party sourcebook. :smallsmile:


Buy a rapier then. While you can't get x1.5 Str with it (not that it matters if you are a Dex character), it can still power attack for x2

In the grand scheme of things it does not matter anyway. What you really want is a weapon from the Shadow Hand group, which gets Dex added to damage. Weapon Finesse is a feat tax should try and avoid, since it merely replaces a better stat (in terms of damage output) for a defensive stat.

Yeah, but shadow blade requires either a level in swordsage + 1 feat, or three feats. Better would be if you can convince your DM to allow you to reverse engineer the Dex-to-damage of the Sword of Graceful Strikes.

Str is easier to deal damage with, but (at higher levels) Dex increase defensive capacity a lot more, especially with touch AC and spellcasters.

[odigity]

Buy a rapier then. While you can't get x1.5 Str with it (not that it matters if you are a Dex character), it can still power attack for x2

You cannot wield a rapier with two hands (see item description in PHB), therefore you cannot power attack for x2.

Really, I laid all of this out in a concise summary in the first post.

[Morcleon]

You cannot wield a rapier with two hands (see item description in PHB), therefore you cannot power attack for x2.

Really, I laid all of this out in a concise summary in the first post.


You can’t wield a rapier in two hands in order to apply 1½ times your Strength bonus to damage.

Yes you can. You just don't get x1.5 Str damage. You can still wield it in two hands and get x2 Power Attack.

[HeadlessMermaid]

Yes you can. You just don't get x1.5 Str damage. You can still wield it in two hands and get x2 Power Attack.
As always, when blindly following RAW is silly and irrational.... consult your DM first.

[Snowbluff]

As always, when blindly following RAW is silly and irrational.... consult your DM first.

This... is hilarious. When a monk is not able to be proficient because the DM noticed they don't have proficiency, that's silly and irrational. When an Ur Priest's spellcasting disqualifies him for his spellcasting, that is silly and irrational. When Pun-Pun happens, that is silly and irrational. This is not.

[Ravens_cry]

You cannot weapon finess a scimitar -- well, not unless you grab the Dervish PrC.
Or the Dervish Dancer feat. Strictly speaking, it's not finessed, and you can't use Agile with it, but you do get Dex to hit . . .and damage.:smallbiggrin:

[odigity]

Yes you can. You just don't get x1.5 Str damage. You can still wield it in two hands and get x2 Power Attack.

Well, poop on my head. I guess I just mentally associated the two benefits. The notion of power attacking for x2 with a rapier in two hands but without the 1.5 Str bonus just doesn't fit in my brain.

Given that the char in question has a Str of 10... it just killed the need for the Thinblade (though I still think it's a great weapon).

And now to pick up the pieces...

[HeadlessMermaid]

This... is hilarious. When a monk is not able to be proficient because the DM noticed they don't have proficiency, that's silly and irrational.
Yes.


When an Ur Priest's spellcasting disqualifies him for his spellcasting, that is silly and irrational.
Yes.


When Pun-Pun happens, that is silly and irrational.
Well, yes, except that Pun-Pun was never meant to "happen", it was meant as a mental exercise.


This is not.
Of course it is! You can't grab a rapier with both hands for more damage in vanilla situations, but you can with Power Attack for even more damage? Come on. It's an oversight. If you or any other DM are fine with it, then great, I won't try to convince you otherwise. Have fun! :)

But if someone comes here for advice, I won't urge him to base an entire build on an obvious oversight. I'll tell him to ask the DM first.

[Snowbluff]

Well, poop on my head. I guess I just mentally associated the two benefits. The notion of power attacking for x2 with a rapier in two hands but without the 1.5 Str bonus just doesn't fit in my brain.

Given that the char in question has a Str of 10... it just killed the need for the Thinblade (though I still think it's a great weapon).

And now to pick up the pieces...

This is pretty much why most exotic weapons aren't worth it. :smalltongue:

GLHF on figuring out what to do next! :smallsmile:

[odigity]

Or the Dervish Dancer feat. Strictly speaking, it's not finessed, and you can't use Agile with it, but you do get Dex to hit . . .and damage.:smallbiggrin:

Just googled "Dervish Dancer feat", found one mention of it in a Pathfinder thread, but no reference to a source. Would love to see it if it's real and part of 3.5, would be great for a few of my chars.

[odigity]

This is pretty much why most exotic weapons aren't worth it. :smalltongue:

GLHF on figuring out what to do next! :smallsmile:

Well, in terms of pure optimziation, it should be an easy decision:

- If RAW stands, stick with the rapier, as the only remaining benefit of Thinblade is 1pt dmg avg, which isn't work XWP
- If DM rules that RAW is silly and rapier doesn't get x2 power Attack, then go for Thinblade

[White_Drake]

It is real, but it's Pathfinder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dervish-dance-combat)

[Ravens_cry]

Just googled "Dervish Dancer feat", found one mention of it in a Pathfinder thread, but no reference to a source. Would love to see it if it's real and part of 3.5, would be great for a few of my chars.
Admittedly, it's Pathfinder. :smallredface:

[Razgriez]

Dervish PrC? I never heard of it?

Oh, wait, is that the "Drizz't Clone" PrC?


The dervish prestice class is from Complete Warrior, and lacks stuff that has to do with Two-Weapon Fighting to be some sort of Drizzt-emulating prestige class. The dervish is all about prancing around with a scimitar and sometimes doing a full attack while moving, and being a little bit fast.

What you might mean is the tempest prestige class from Complete Adventurer, which is about two-weapon fighting.

No it's not a Drizz't clone PrC, nor does it specifically require that scimitars be used. It does however, at level one, gain an ability that let's a Dervish treat scimitars as a light weapon for all purposes (Including two weapon fighting), and because of the Weapon Focus feat requirement, means that in terms of long term planning, you might as well grab a scimitar or two and get good with it. Essentially, they're a high mobility,light armored glass cannon/lightning bruiser, that kills stuff, exactly as it's penultimate ability is named: Death via "A Thousand Cuts" (and a lot of Critical threats), and it does all this, by dancing. (EDITED IN CORRECTION: Perform (Dance) ranks are used to determine the duration of it's primary ability: "Dervish Dance")





As always, when blindly following RAW is silly and irrational.... consult your DM first.
This... is hilarious. When a monk is not able to be proficient because the DM noticed they don't have proficiency, that's silly and irrational. When an Ur Priest's spellcasting disqualifies him for his spellcasting, that is silly and irrational. When Pun-Pun happens, that is silly and irrational. This is not.

It's a tough call, and I agree with both points. On one hand, the idea of this crazy bit of RAW Loophole abuse, causes the DM in me to want to swing a gargantuan sized Goliath Great hammer at someones head. The Elven Thin/Light/Court Blades, seems to point towards the goal of providing an option to allow Elven blooded characters be better at the DEX based fighting styles, over other races. They weren't designed to be potentially game breaking or just plain more powerful than virtually any other weapon, like the Swiss Army Spiked Chain. However, exactly because of the Spiked Chains existence, (and because attempts to tone it down would make the already hurting in balance physical combat oriented class users worse), I'd dare say letting someone use a Thinblade two handed, if only for the Power Attack x2 bonus, is ok. Asking for it to provide x1.5 Strength at all other times though, is up for debate.

EDIT: See below for correction that this is about the Rapier, and not the Elven Thinblade

[Snowbluff]

I think you mean Rapier.

[odigity]

(Though, Perform: Dancing rolls are not required to use it's abilities, but 3 ranks of the skill is needed to enter, somewhat oddly)

It's not just a preq. Your ranks in Perform (dance) determine how long you can Dervish Dance for (1 rd/2 skill ranks), so you do want to invest some skill points in it beyond the minimum.


It's a tough call, and I agree with both points. On one hand, the idea of this crazy bit of RAW Loophole abuse, causes the DM in me to want to swing a gargantuan sized Goliath Great hammer at someones head. The Elven Thin/Light/Court Blades, seems to point towards the goal of providing an option to allow Elven blooded characters be better at the DEX based fighting styles, over other races. They weren't designed to be potentially game breaking or just plain more powerful than virtually any other weapon, like the Swiss Army Spiked Chain. However, exactly because of the Spiked Chains existence, (and because attempts to tone it down would make the already hurting in balance physical combat oriented class users worse), I'd dare say letting someone use a Thinblade two handed, if only for the Power Attack x2 bonus, is ok. Asking for it to provide x1.5 Strength at all other times though, is up for debate.

The loophole is using a rapier with Power Attack.

Using Power Attack with the Elven blades is not a loophole, it's intended. It's what's (somewhat) unique about them. Hence the thread title.

[Snowbluff]

Silly human. You can't know intent without it being explicit.

[SowZ]

No it's not a Drizz't clone PrC, nor does it specifically require that scimitars be used.

Dude, it may as well be restricted to Chaotic Good Dark Elves it is so Drizz'tity. It doesn't require scimitars to be used, but it explains how our tortured hero could do everything he did in the books and still be within the mechanics.

[odigity]

Dude, it may as well be restricted to Chaotic Good Dark Elves it is so Drizz'tity. It doesn't require scimitars to be used, but it explains how our tortured hero could do everything he did in the books and still be within the mechanics.

Sure... but I like Drizzt, so I don't see the problem. :)

[Razgriez]

It's not just a preq. Your ranks in Perform (dance) determine how long you can Dervish Dance for (1 rd/2 skill ranks), so you do want to invest some skill points in it beyond the minimum.
Noted, reread it, and editing in the correction. My mistake, I missed the blurb there at the end of Dervish Dance. Sorry




The loophole is using a rapier with Power Attack.

Using Power Attack with the Elven blades is not a loophole, it's intended. It's what's (somewhat) unique about them. Hence the thread title.

-_-; Two for two on that mistake.

In that case, then yea, with Rapiers, the Rule as Written: "You may not use two hands for Strength Bonus" would also point at it being impossible to gain advantage of Power Attack's 2 handed bonus.

[Thespianus]

You missed undetectable alignment, a 1st level spell that all beguilers know and can cast.
Duh. I only checked spells against on the Wizard and Beguiler spell lists, and I was being sloppy.

How sad for me. How good for the OP. ;) Thanks.