Strongest/Best Melee Class

[Unknownz77]

So yea, guys, as you know, if you search in google "Best class in D&D" Most stuff would be Wizard, Sorcerer, Cleric/Druid, etc. So yea, Is there any "Close-to-OP" melee class in D&D? I'm looking for one :P Preferably a class that uses swords. A prestige or custom class is acceptable too :)
Thanks!

[Urpriest]

So yea, guys, as you know, if you search in google "Best class in D&D" Most stuff would be Wizard, Sorcerer, Cleric/Druid, etc. So yea, Is there any "Close-to-OP" melee class in D&D? I'm looking for one :P Preferably a class that uses swords. A prestige or custom class is acceptable too :)
Thanks!

You put this post in the Roleplaying games section, not the D&D 3.5 section, so you could be talking about any edition. In D&D 4e, Fighter can be quite "OP".

[SowZ]

If 3.5, Warblade is gonna be a good bet for you. It can be pretty strong in low-OP groups and hold its own in others.

[Thinker]

So yea, guys, as you know, if you search in google "Best class in D&D" Most stuff would be Wizard, Sorcerer, Cleric/Druid, etc. So yea, Is there any "Close-to-OP" melee class in D&D? I'm looking for one :P Preferably a class that uses swords. A prestige or custom class is acceptable too :)
Thanks!

The cleric and druid are totally OP in melee in 3.5.

[Arutema]

You put this post in the Roleplaying games section, not the D&D 3.5 section, so you could be talking about any edition. In D&D 4e, Fighter can be quite "OP".

And here I was about to answer "Dawn Caste".

[Dr.Epic]

Monk

:smallwink:
:smalltongue:

[Morph Bark]

3.5
Well, at level 1, all the Tome of Battle classes are stronger than all the other classes. This gets balanced out a little over the early levels, before the Core casters start getting ahead, but at high levels they're ahead again of some of the combat classes. Their main good point is also that they don't need multiclassing to become even better, which the Barbarian, Fighter and Monk need. Of those last three, the Barbarian is the strongest/best melee class, but only really with PrCs taken in mind, because there are some wicked things you can get out of rage with PrCs.

But Imma go with Warblade.

4.0
Guardian Fighter or Two-Weapon Ranger.

Exalted
Dawn Caste Solar, but you might make it a close call with a Full Moon Lunar.

Star Wars SAGA
Soldier, duh.

RISUS
Wait, what?

[Dienekes]

3.5
Star Wars SAGA
Soldier, duh.


Really I thought Jedi was specifically better at melee. Soldier is the master of the "more dakka" school of ranged combat, unless I'm missing something with what I thought was a generally lackluster Brawler Talent Tree.

Also in 3.5 Cleric/Druid are probably better at melee than the Warblade, just because of their ability to buff themselves up ridiculously. Though Druids change their shape to suit it so it doesn't quite fit the preferably uses swords requirement.

[Larkas]

--snip--

Don't forget about...

Pathfinder

A strong case can be made for Hungry Ghost Qinggong Monk.

...Though I'm not sure that qualifies entirely as "melee"! :smallbiggrin:

[Hiro Protagonest]

3.5

Druid. Cleric is more "guy with fighter-level melee ability, plus spells". But Druid can really bring the hurt.

4e

Fighter.

World of Darkness

Werewolf or Vampire. Not sure which, as I don't actually have the books.

Scion

The guy who pumped Epic Dexterity.

Exalted

Dawn Caste. Slayer and Dusk are hovering around there, but Dawns are the kings.

[Eldan]

Almost certainly werewolf in OWoD. A combat-specialist werewolf takes apart small groups of combat-focused vampires easily, unless one group has significantly more cheese than the other. Heck, I wouldn't be too sure with a combat focused starting vampire against a non-specialist starting werewolf.

[awa]

the abbility to deal agg damge on the claws and soak agg damge in return makes were wolves brutal.

In regards to dnd casters still win melee thanks to abbilities like wild shape or spells like shape change

[SowZ]

Really I thought Jedi was specifically better at melee. Soldier is the master of the "more dakka" school of ranged combat, unless I'm missing something with what I thought was a generally lackluster Brawler Talent Tree.

Also in 3.5 Cleric/Druid are probably better at melee than the Warblade, just because of their ability to buff themselves up ridiculously. Though Druids change their shape to suit it so it doesn't quite fit the preferably uses swords requirement.

Yeah, but he specifically ousted those two classes. /:

[Hiro Protagonest]

Yeah, but he specifically ousted those two classes. /:

If he didn't say "and cleric and druid don't count", or something along those lines, they count. He didn't say that. He just said they're two of the most powerful caster classes in the game. Doesn't mean they aren't both.

[Aron Times]

In the nWoD, here's Kung Fu 4, which lets you pile on the dice, and it gets even worse with a way to deal unarmed aggravated damage like Claws of the Wild. The only cost for doing Kung Fu 4 is that you lose your defense, but you don't need to spend any willpower to do it. You pretty much don't need defense when you can kill the other guy with a barrel of dice.

It pales in comparison to Combat Marksmanship, though. Massive buff to initiative, reflexive action reload (free action), no penalties to firing in melee, and the gun version of Kung Fu 4 at Combat Marksmanship 5. Combat Marksmanship is basically the great equalizer of the New World of Darkness, and can be taken by anyone, mortal or supernatural.

Too bad it's not melee.

[Anderlith]

Duskblade (3.5) or Magus (pathfinder) In all serious though a wizard makes a better melee than a traditional melee because of buffs

WoD: Werewolf, a starter werewolf can kill just about any vampire

[SowZ]

Duskblade (3.5) or Magus (pathfinder) In all serious though a wizard makes a better melee than a traditional melee because of buffs

WoD: Werewolf, a starter werewolf can kill just about any vampire

Disagree because of celerity.

A Vampire can still get attack pools over 20 in melee without tooo much trouble. Attacking multiple times per round, too? Besides, with all their disciplines flexibility, they can have more ways to avoid damage.

Low or mid game? Yeah, werewolves eat vampires for breakfast. Late game? Build yourself right, and a vamp can exceed power. Of course you aren't as good as a mage, but we are talking melee.

I suppose he didn't take Cleric/Druid off the table, but he mentioned them in his OP looking for alternatives. Maybe he is unaware that they can be such beastly melee warriors, though.

[Dienekes]

Yeah, but he specifically ousted those two classes. /:

Yeah, while this is negated below, I will admit it doesn't really follow the intention of the post.

Best real melee classes in my opinion are Warblade for all around melee fighting and Crusader for more combat control and tanking. They're both very fun classes that are strong out of the box without being overpowered.

[Anderlith]

Disagree because of celerity.

A Vampire can still get attack pools over 20 in melee without tooo much trouble. Attacking multiple times per round, too? Besides, with all their disciplines flexibility, they can have more ways to avoid damage.

Low or mid game? Yeah, werewolves eat vampires for breakfast. Late game? Build yourself right, and a vamp can exceed power. Of course you aren't as good as a mage, but we are talking melee.

I suppose he didn't take Cleric/Druid off the table, but he mentioned them in his OP looking for alternatives. Maybe he is unaware that they can be such beastly melee warriors, though.

A werewolf can always jump into/out of the Umbra, all the speed you want can't hit something that isn't there

[SowZ]

A werewolf can always jump into/out of the Umbra, all the speed you want can't hit something that isn't there

Not if the Vamp gets five actions before the wolf can act.

[Answerer]

Artificer, Archivist, Cleric, Druid, or Wizard. Hard to say which, exactly. But they're the best at anything, melee included.

[nedz]

1E
Ranger.

2E
Cleric — if of a suitably deity.

Fighter was pretty solid in both, as was Fighter/Magic User.

[Kazyan]

3.5

There's this obscure sourcebook called Tome of Battle. You don't here much about it around here, but it has powerful melee classes.

V:tM

Brujah. Just, no contest. Celerity in VtM is like Celerity in D&D on steroids.

Kingdom of Loathing

Seal Clubber, although you probably want to do a Turtle Tamer run and perm Tao of the Terrapin beforehand, if you don't want to heal after every fight.

[Anderlith]

Not if the Vamp gets five actions before the wolf can act.

The werewolf is already in the umbra, with a grand klaive & silver immunity...
(That was actually my very first character in WoD. At the time I didn't know how powerful I truly was until the other players pointed it out)

[SowZ]

The werewolf is already in the umbra, with a grand klaive & silver immunity...
(That was actually my very first character in WoD. At the time I didn't know how powerful I truly was until the other players pointed it out)

If they are battling it out, presumably they are both in the material plane. Besides, this is talking about in a melee battle.

[Gavinfoxx]

Druid!

https://docs.google.com/document/d/17bYfVxcXM8uKmxtQAOHgKN7MNchvqcMw31R-k-NPrTw/edit?authkey=CLWf4ugH&authkey=CLWf4ugH

Can you get numbers like that, at level 15, without magic items? Hmmm?

[Slipperychicken]

A prestige or custom class is acceptable too :)
Thanks!

Lightning Warrior. Wizard casting, full BAB, all good saves, d20 hit die, TWF chain for free. No familiar though :(

[Gavinfoxx]

Lightning Warrior. Wizard casting, full BAB, all good saves, d20 hit die, TWF chain for free. No familiar though :(

FYI OP, if you don't know -- this was meant as a joke class.

[F0X7713]

Dervish is pretty good =)

[Endarire]

Hood (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2462).

A concept and not a class, but it's modular.

[BTB]

I'm putting in a word for the synthesis summoner from Pathfinder. Evolutions just beat out anything any dedicated melee class has to offer.

[Sewercop]

Best melee option in 3.5 some sort of caster cleric,druid,wiz,psion etc. But since druid is the easiest one to dominate with, ill say that.

And people saying that in owod werewolf or vampire are the best.. Its the mage, he can do your bit and his bit. Seriously, being a werewolf is as easy as killing five of em and doing a ritual.

Most games are like that, shiny fighters on paper but ends up with spell casters being the real winners due to magic.

[gomipile]

I think the Crusader may technically be better than the Warblade because of it's theoretically superior maneuver recovery method. The Crusader can perform one or more maneuvers every round with no maneuver downtime, ever.

[Sylvos330]

Not if the Vamp gets five actions before the wolf can act.

Wolf can simply spend 5 rage. True they go second but they can soak anything the vampire can throw at them. The only Vampire that stands a chance is an Elder but a Rank 5 werewolf would still tear it to shreds in the long run.

[Sewercop]

Wolf can simply spend 5 rage. True they go second but they can soak anything the vampire can throw at them. The only Vampire that stands a chance is an Elder but a Rank 5 werewolf would still tear it to shreds in the long run.


Wrong, stacking damage are so simple in owod its not even funny. A vampire built for battle would destroy a werewolf. A mage would destroy a vampire..

But, if you dont understand mechanics at all werewolf would kill a vampire.

Just like the heroics spell in d&d 3.5 makes you a better fighter then the fighter.

[Slipperychicken]

FYI OP, if you don't know -- this was meant as a joke class.

I probably should have put that in blue to indicate sarcasm. Lightning Warrior is some of the most hilariously unbalanced homebrew garbage ever, and most likely intended as a joke.

[TopCheese]

I think the Crusader may technically be better than the Warblade because of it's theoretically superior maneuver recovery method. The Crusader can perform one or more maneuvers every round with no maneuver downtime, ever.

I think the fact that idiot crusader and D2 crusader exist automatically makes Crusader more "OP" than the Warblade.

Hulking Hurler does need mentioned in 3.5 ... I mean wow the damage it can put out...

Which explains why Wizards are king and get all the love. We need to keep those frenzy berserker barbarian hulking hurler builds from targeting the earth with whatever they are throwing... You know since barbarians are powered by primal energy (the planet?) and thus is a ally of the guy.... And trust me, I have a few hippy friends that will argue the planet is "alive" and a "creature". :smalltongue:

[Dusk Eclipse]

Best melee option in 3.5 some sort of caster cleric,druid,wiz,psion etc. But since druid is the easiest one to dominate with, ill say that.

And people saying that in owod werewolf or vampire are the best.. Its the mage, he can do your bit and his bit. Seriously, being a werewolf is as easy as killing five of em and doing a ritual.

Most games are like that, shiny fighters on paper but ends up with spell casters being the real winners due to magic.

True but IMO Warblade have access to better disciplines, Diamond Mind and Iron Heart are probably the best disciplines. White Raven is good; but both classes have access to them and while Devoted Spirit is one of the best disciplines I feel IH and DM outclass it.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Assuming that you're looking for a total non-caster and/or a single class setup, probably an uber-charger barbarian is your most powerful choice in terms of HP damage.

As for "best," that's a flawed question. The best melee class is the one that most suits your play-style, group, and idea of fun. That is to say that which is the "best" class is an entirely subjective question.

[TopCheese]

Assuming that you're looking for a total non-caster and/or a single class setup, probably an uber-charger barbarian is your most powerful choice in terms of HP damage.

As for "best," that's a flawed question. The best melee class is the one that most suits your play-style, group, and idea of fun. That is to say that which is the "best" class is an entirely subjective question.

Well if you are asking for opinions then asking "what is the best X" is perfectly fine. I'm assuming (yeah yeah bad me) that the OP wanted opinions of the playground.

Though another melee type that I say is up there for best ... Totemist! They get some sick melee attacks and some awesome grappling powers.. And you never have to be one or the other unless you choose to be.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Well if you are asking for opinions then asking "what is the best X" is perfectly fine. I'm assuming (yeah yeah bad me) that the OP wanted opinions of the playground.

Though another melee type that I say is up there for best ... Totemist! They get some sick melee attacks and some awesome grappling powers.. And you never have to be one or the other unless you choose to be.

I assumed he was looking for the objectively most powerful melee class, since that's both implied by the title and there's nothing in the OP to suggest he wanted opinions. There's nothing wrong with giving an opinion, of course, but it's somewhat less than helpful for someone with an objective goal in mind.

IMO, the fighter is the best melee class. The almost unparalleled flexibility in how you can put together a straight fighter is very satisfying to me and I don't play at an optimization level where the fighter is "useless."

The overwhelming opinion of the board however seems to be that warblade is "better."

*Disclaimer: I'm fairly familiar with both and my opinion stands. Since it -is- an opinion, I don't need to be corrected. Let's not derail this into a thread about how ToB is "melee done right." eh? :smalltongue:

[Sylvos330]

Wrong, stacking damage are so simple in owod its not even funny. A vampire built for battle would destroy a werewolf. A mage would destroy a vampire..

But, if you dont understand mechanics at all werewolf would kill a vampire.

Just like the heroics spell in d&d 3.5 makes you a better fighter then the fighter.

Ok, instead of insulting me, how about you explain it. How would a Vampire built for combat trump a Werewolf built for combat?

[Sewercop]

thing is, you are thinking combat. Only thing the werewolf has over the vampire are base stats and wolf pack totem thingy..

All the diciplines and stuff just wrecks most what a werewolf character starts with. Not to mention the option to be a older vampire and get loads of freebie points. Thats a choice for background.

And for 3.5, if fighter is the best choice for melee in a group. Thats not a group for me.

[Kazyan]

All the diciplines and stuff just wrecks most what a werewolf character starts with.

For example, Presence 5. You lose. No Willpower roll or anything, just lose.

[Axier]

3.5
For raw damage, an Ubercharger Barbarian build will one shot most CR appropriate challanges by stacking a large amount of multipliers.

Pathfinder
I actually feel that a mutagen based Alchemist with a Barbarian dip, or any Barbarian that can rage cycle. Another good one is the Martial Artist / Barbarian with the rage power tree to get pounce, pretty solid, and can rage cycle from level 6.

Shadowrun
Whether it is more tech, or adept powers, as long as you can crank your strength, and have as many initiative passes as possible, you own. And then you realize a dragon can still beat you, except when you are Human, and then you only have like one chance to survive.

[Sylvos330]

thing is, you are thinking combat. Only thing the werewolf has over the vampire are base stats and wolf pack totem thingy..

All the diciplines and stuff just wrecks most what a werewolf character starts with. Not to mention the option to be a older vampire and get loads of freebie points. Thats a choice for background.

And for 3.5, if fighter is the best choice for melee in a group. Thats not a group for me.

I'd also add in the fact that every werewolf deals Agg which only a few vampires can pull at later levels of their disciplines. Not to mention their innate ability to heal both naturally and through gifts.

I do agree that their gifts can be weaker as a whole then the Vampire gifts but what they lack in magic they make up for with raw power.

[Kelb_Panthera]

thing is, you are thinking combat. Only thing the werewolf has over the vampire are base stats and wolf pack totem thingy..

All the diciplines and stuff just wrecks most what a werewolf character starts with. Not to mention the option to be a older vampire and get loads of freebie points. Thats a choice for background.

And for 3.5, if fighter is the best choice for melee in a group. Thats not a group for me.

That's perfectly alright.

But for clarity's sake, in the group I used to play with (had to move) fighter was the best choice for me in that group. The others would've floundered horribly. My preference for low-op games has everything to do with preference. My op-fu is pretty good, if I do say so myself. :smalltongue:

[TopCheese]

That's perfectly alright.

But for clarity's sake, in the group I used to play with (had to move) fighter was the best choice for me in that group. The others would've floundered horribly. My preference for low-op games has everything to do with preference. My op-fu is pretty good, if I do say so myself. :smalltongue:

One thing I've found makes 3.5 work decently is high op mundane low to medium op magic.

I actually don't like playing chargers so I don't see them as the best... But I do know the power they hold.

I love the idea of the 3.5 fighter. Also if you open up fighter bonus feats and give them more of them then it may works. One of my favorite classes in BESM 3.5 is the adventurer which is the fighter done a bit more right but not as much as really needed.

I love all types of op games. I joined a game recently where I gave up wildshape for the phb shapeshift and everyone was screaming I was under performing lol. Tons of fun though!

Also my comments about opinions wasn't meant to be standoffish I'm horrid at portraying tone via net haha

[Kelb_Panthera]

One thing I've found makes 3.5 work decently is high op mundane low to medium op magic.

I actually don't like playing chargers so I don't see them as the best... But I do know the power they hold.

I love the idea of the 3.5 fighter. Also if you open up fighter bonus feats and give them more of them then it may works. One of my favorite classes in BESM 3.5 is the adventurer which is the fighter done a bit more right but not as much as really needed.

I love all types of op games. I joined a game recently where I gave up wildshape for the phb shapeshift and everyone was screaming I was under performing lol. Tons of fun though!

Also my comments about opinions wasn't meant to be standoffish I'm horrid at portraying tone via net haha

Meh. We all have to contend with the issue of text being a poor vector for conveying tone. No harm done.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

base stats and wolf pack totem thingy..

All the diciplines and stuff just wrecks most what a werewolf character starts with. Not to mention the option to be a older vampire and get loads of freebie points. Thats a choice for background.


Dude, those base stats are a big deal. You'll to buy 2 Potence to match their free strength boost, 3 Fortitude to match their Stamina and Agg damage soak (you actually can't level this field if they have high base stats which they will), you need Protean 2 to deal Agg damage like they do for free.

That's 7 dots of disciplines to level the playing field, a starting character gets 3 and can buy 2 more if they dump all their freebie points.

Maybe there's some xp level where vamps can overtake a werewolf by maxing all of the combat disciplines, but I doubt it Werewolf gifts, totems and fetishes usually don't give nice clean additives like disciplines do, but some do you just need to pick and choose.

Honestly I have no idea where your coming from, in my experience anyone will tell you about how OP werewolves were in new WoD their a lot more balanced with the other character types which I think is why it hasn't been very successful; people that loved the OP werewolves don't want to play weaklings and people that though Apocalypse Werewolves were stupid and cheesy won't give the new game a chance.


For example, Presence 5. You lose. No Willpower roll or anything, just lose.

1. That's not built for Combat vs. Built for Combat, that's like comparing a Beguiler to a Fighter.
2. Generally, other character types get the same benefits as yours even though they aren't called out in the rules text of the powers, each book is written with the assumption you'll never meet the other flavors of supernatural PCs new WoD has the same rule but it's made more clear.
3. Werewolves hove "no you didn't" buttons, including resist the unresistable gifts.

[Sylvos330]

For example, Presence 5. You lose. No Willpower roll or anything, just lose.

Kazyan has a really good point though. Weres do tend to lose in the social power department unless you involve the other shifters in which that advantage quickly goes away, Kitsune for example have a social power that if they win you take 3 agg.

My main point is that on a physical level (Best Fighter) Vamps can't hold their own against a Were. The best way a Vampire beats a Werewolf is one of two ways as far as I know. Playing the waiting game because Werewolves have very short lifespans by comparison or beat them with influence.

[Sewercop]

Off topic OWOD


Dude, those base stats are a big deal. You'll to buy 2 Potence to match their free strength boost, 3 Fortitude to match their Stamina and Agg damage soak (you actually can't level this field if they have high base stats which they will), you need Protean 2 to deal Agg damage like they do for free.

That's 7 dots of disciplines to level the playing field, a starting character gets 3 and can buy 2 more if they dump all their freebie points.

Maybe there's some xp level where vamps can overtake a werewolf by maxing all of the combat disciplines, but I doubt it Werewolf gifts, totems and fetishes usually don't give nice clean additives like disciplines do, but some do you just need to pick and choose.

Honestly I have no idea where your coming from, in my experience anyone will tell you about how OP werewolves were in new WoD their a lot more balanced with the other character types which I think is why it hasn't been very successful; people that loved the OP werewolves don't want to play weaklings and people that though Apocalypse Werewolves were stupid and cheesy won't give the new game a chance.



1. That's not built for Combat vs. Built for Combat, that's like comparing a Beguiler to a Fighter.
2. Generally, other character types get the same benefits as yours even though they aren't called out in the rules text of the powers, each book is written with the assumption you'll never meet the other flavors of supernatural PCs new WoD has the same rule but it's made more clear.
3. Werewolves hove "no you didn't" buttons, including resist the unresistable gifts.

Protean 2, gets you aggrevated damage. But thats not that important, its enough gear that deals it anyways.

The thing is that a vampire can choose to be older via background. 5 dots in that background yields enough freebie points to demolish almost any werewolf. Not saying werewolfs aint fun, i like them better then vamps anyway. A werewolf can kill a vamp, but its more likely that a vamp kills a werewolf if enough minmaxery are done. The vamps just have that much power creep compared to werewolf.

Even if most say wolfs are op does not make it true. They are easier to understand mechanics wise, thats why they seem more op.


I dont disagree to the fact that 3.5 is most suited for lower tier classes optimized compared to tier 2 and up. I just cant see fighter as viable option for ME. Its to flat and repetetiv, boring imo. Others might see it that way, and thats fair.

But as op say, he is looking for the best melee. And thats just not one of the mundane classes.

[Kaustic]

Jumping on a bit of the Werewolf vs Vampire debate here, but a Werewolf at Elder vs an Elder Vampire might not be any more likely to win. A Werewolf can start out in the umbra, but unless they are a Glass Walker Elder and/or have some way to get Chaos Mechanics from said Elder Glass Walker, they are spending that Rage in the Umbra only.

But lest we forget you want a physical fight of worthy of singing tales about, go up against a Prepared Mage or Changeling, you'll think twice real quick.

[TopCheese]

Off topic OWOD



Protean 2, gets you aggrevated damage. But thats not that important, its enough gear that deals it anyways.

The thing is that a vampire can choose to be older via background. 5 dots in that background yields enough freebie points to demolish almost any werewolf. Not saying werewolfs aint fun, i like them better then vamps anyway. A werewolf can kill a vamp, but its more likely that a vamp kills a werewolf if enough minmaxery are done. The vamps just have that much power creep compared to werewolf.

Even if most say wolfs are op does not make it true. They are easier to understand mechanics wise, thats why they seem more op.


I dont disagree to the fact that 3.5 is most suited for lower tier classes optimized compared to tier 2 and up. I just cant see fighter as viable option for ME. Its to flat and repetetiv, boring imo. Others might see it that way, and thats fair.

But as op say, he is looking for the best melee. And thats just not one of the mundane classes.

I think the base idea of the fighter is right on the dot. The creators however put way to much stock in feats... Feats that were horrid.

If feats were on par with spells... Now that would be great.

With all this ... Where can I find who wrote what in each 3.5 book? I'm afb right now and I've never really looked into this info, though I have seen the authors names just not if it tells what they specifically worked on.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I'm 80-ish% certain that the only way you're going to find out who designed what at that specific a level is to actually ask each of the designers listed and hope they remember right.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

WoD Combat Brute stuff:

So, first off I wanna say thatnks for actually answering the question "why do you think this?"

Am I mistaken, or does the age background only appear in the 1st edition book about playing elders that has it's own character building system with like 13/9/7 attributes and such? If it appears elsewhere then toche, vamps allowed the "requires storyteller approval background win at everything every time otherwise I call shenanigans, that background is not available to starting characters and since there isn't similar book for other character types elder vs elder should just be identical amounts of xp.

Though I'll still concede Elder vs. Elder because I just remembered some of the nastier combo's like Chimera (requires a bunch of Visitude and Protean) which gives a huge pile of stats and armor which you can layer on top of your elder stats and physical disciplines.

Agg weapons cost character building resources too, though they are cheaper than 2 dots in a discipline you don't otherwise need. I'm pretty sure a werewolf will get a mechanically superior glaive for the same investment that a vamp throws into getting a relic. Unless we're talking about using a silver weapon, but then we're talking Werewolf Hunter vs. Werewolf and in my experience the typical WW brute has silver tolerance.

Unless you mean a modern weapon, in which case Wild West rules for wielding artillery.

[Phaederkiel]

the cityscape web enhancement seems to make Barbarian even up to 19 worthwhile.

This enhancement gives you higher critrange at 7, one 90° turn while charging at 10, charge through allied spaces at 13, 4 times movement while charging at 16 and the ability to make another charge if you dropped your prey on your first strike and have still movement left at 19.

Now, with high enough Ini and say, a portable antimagic field, you are quite good to go, even against casters.

on lvl 20, you could always fit in one lvl warblade...

albeit Warblade / Crusader are far more fun to play, if you ask me. The random draw of abilities the crusader gets is really nice, since you have to plan accordingly and cannot fight every fight the same.


one word about casters beeing better at melee than melee: this might be true, IF they get their buffes up. Which is, unless heavy cheese is involved, not guaranteed. Most people think that casters always get to pick their fights, which any dm worth his salt will not allow.
Then comes the other killer argument: celerity. Which needs (as does the jaunt) a immediate action to perform, which a character which has not taken a turn yet as far as I know cannot perform.
Lastly, there is contingency. But it is also the reason you bring an antimagic field. Now at least you can hope.

[Socratov]

3.5
Well, at level 1, all the Tome of Battle classes are stronger than all the other classes. This gets balanced out a little over the early levels, before the Core casters start getting ahead, but at high levels they're ahead again of some of the combat classes. Their main good point is also that they don't need multiclassing to become even better, which the Barbarian, Fighter and Monk need. Of those last three, the Barbarian is the strongest/best melee class, but only really with PrCs taken in mind, because there are some wicked things you can get out of rage with PrCs.

But Imma go with Warblade.



a liontotem, powerattack, ubercharger shocktrooper barbarian wants a word with you. they could potentially output more damage then a mailman, though they are vulnerable like babies after such a turn. However, don't forget Psychic warrior who can break fair and square, a totemist, an eldritch glaive or claws using warlock, they can all hurt like hell. and then there are cheaters like wizards, clerics, druids and Pun-Pun.

[Togo]

3.5 - it depends on what you mean by 'best'. Barbarians and their variants ususally rule the roost on damage. If you want combat moves as well, you're better off with a warblade or fighter-based build, and if you really care more about variable combat styles and utility than you do about damage, go wildshaperanger -> Master of Many Forms. Your damage output will be terrible, but you'll have more combat options than the party wizard has memorised spells.

old White Wolf - I'll take your puny vampire, werewolf or mage, and match them with my obscure op-fu. Enter the StreetFighter - one of the most poorly written books ever produced - that will simply parry your attacks and then punch you into the middle of next week. :smallwink: