StP Erudite with 11 Powers/Day

[JKTrickster]

So I'm playing a Gestalt game where we're expected to optimize or die. It's supposed to be an extremely high OP game with anything allowed, even setting specific material.

So naturally I decided to go StP Erudite 18||Archivist 11/Sacred Exorcist 1/Dread Necromancer 1/Dweomerkeeper 5


Now my DM has ruled that StP Erudite will only be able to manifest 11 Unique Powers a Day.

On the other hand, he has also ruled that Mantled Discipline with the Magic discipline allows me to learn any spell as a general power (allowing me to get 9th level spells).

So.....how should I determine which of my almighty world shattering spells/powers I should use in a day?

[eggs]

Most StP Erudites use Arcane Fusion, sometimes with Sanctum Spell, to circumvent the Erudite's UPPD limits. The readings involved allow some unfavorable limits though.

Without that trick, playing an Erudite usually means not choosing those 11 powers specifically - just manifesting what's needed for a situation the for the first few UPPDs (what's useful once in a day is often useful twice), and using the last one or two for a super-versatile power like Time Hop or Metamorphosis that can reasonably be expected to address any unexpected encounters during the day.

[Xervous]

1. Mental Pinnacle


... will add more when I'm done readin up again...

(In my sleep deprived state, I'm assuming you mean you only have access to 11 powers for that day, with PP being your only limitation on iterations of those 11)

[JKTrickster]

Yes I only have access to 11 Powers a day, although I can cast them multiple times.

Would a general list like:

1. Schism
2. Temporal Acceleration
3. Gate
4. Shapechange

be good to cast each and every day? Leaving 7 Powers/Spell for my discretion?

Why is Mental Pinnacle good? I can have those powers anyway :smallconfused:

Hmm how does Arcane Fusion bypass? I'm still casting two spells aren't I?

[Xervous]

Yes I only have access to 11 Powers a day, although I can cast them multiple times.

Would a general list like:

1. Schism
2. Temporal Acceleration
3. Gate
4. Shapechange

be good to cast each and every day? Leaving 7 Powers/Spell for my discretion?

Why is Mental Pinnacle good? I can have those powers anyway :smallconfused:

Hmm how does Arcane Fusion bypass? I'm still casting two spells aren't I?

mental pinnacle gives you more PP than it creates, therefore it gives you however much you want given enough time to cast it over and over again. Find creative uses for the ludicrous amounts of PP you can generate.

@ (my guess) greater arcane fusion. you are limited in POWERS per day, arcane fusion specifically says spells... unless I'm missing something I neglected to read on StP Erudites. So you are manifesting Psionic Greater Arcane Fusion, it just creates these nice arcane spells, which aren't powers.

(If this is possible, get an arcane version of miracle, perhaps from a warmage who went into rainbow servant)

[eggs]

Hmm how does Arcane Fusion bypass? I'm still casting two spells aren't I?
Arcane Fusion makes two spells "take effect" without actually casting them. Using one UPPD for Greater Arcane Fusion gains access to every sorcerer spell you know at level 7 or below.

The rules ambiguities crop up in whether erudite powers known constitute "sorcerer spells you know" (phrases like "sorcerer spell" and "paladin spell" aren't never specified as traits of the spell or traits of the spell's caster) and in whether Sanctum Spell can make level 8 spells eligible for arcane fusion (the errata indicate that spell levels for arcane fusion's purposes are altered by spell level adjustments; but they also indicate that metamagic can affect arcane fusioned spells, which would make most level 8 spells qualify as Fusion-eligible).

[Zonugal]

So.....how should I determine which of my almighty world shattering spells/powers I should use in a day?

Well for the 11 powers per day I'd focus on versatility while also taking a keen eye on consistent power.

So putting together a quick list, I'd go with:

Body Outside Body: Create duplicates of you that are friendly to you and your friends and obey even suicidal orders.
Dominate Monster: As dominate person, but any creature.
Hypercognition: You can deduce almost anything.
Mental Pinnacle: You gain the mental powers of a psion.
Polymorph Any Object: Changes any subject into anything else.
Schism: Your partitioned mind can manifest lower level powers.
Shades: As shadow conjuration, but up to 8th level and 80% real.
Shadow Envocation, Greater: As shadow evocation, but up to 7th level and 60% real.
Shapechange: Transforms you into any creature, and change forms once per round.
Summon Elemental Monolith: You conjure a tremendously powerful creature known as an elemental monolith.
Time Stop: You act freely for 1d4+1 rounds.

[Mithril Leaf]

(If this is possible, get an arcane version of miracle, perhaps from a warmage who went into rainbow servant)

The Rainbow Servant casts cleric spells as divine spells, so there's not any luck that route. Maybe some other way, perhaps a southern magician.

[JKTrickster]

Would Alternative Source Spell work?

[jindra34]

Only real way would be to somehow pull of off a Pathfinder Witch's patron list. At least without extreme shenanigans.

[JKTrickster]

Only real way would be to somehow pull of off a Pathfinder Witch's patron list. At least without extreme shenanigans.

What do you mean by this?

Also apparently my DM is okay with a feat to increase the amount of Unique Powers per Day by 1 (so if I take the feat once I get 12, etc.)


On a scale from 1 to 10 (10 being all the feats, 1 being...1 feat) - how many feats should I devote to this?

[jindra34]

What do you mean by this?

Also apparently my DM is okay with a feat to increase the amount of Unique Powers per Day by 1 (so if I take the feat once I get 12, etc.)


On a scale from 1 to 10 (10 being all the feats, 1 being...1 feat) - how many feats should I devote to this?

One of the Patron (kinda like domains) spell lists from the Witch class in Pathfinder has Miracle as its 9th spell level spell. If such a character exists, you should be able to get a scroll of it. So no feats needed, but if possible go whole hog for it.

[JKTrickster]

Wouldn't Wish be good enough as a Psionic spell/power?

[jindra34]

Wouldn't Wish be good enough as a Psionic spell/power?

Miracle can do close to the same amount without costing any exp.

[zeboss]

If this is possible, get an arcane version of miracle, perhaps from a warmage who went into rainbow servant

Can't you get divine spells as arcane from geomancers and vice verse?

[JKTrickster]

If I had an Archivist (which I do) then used the Alternative Spell Source feat couldn't I then learn it as a Psionic Power for the Erudite?

[Wings of Peace]

Soul Crystal (Magic of Incarnum, pg. 107). You're welcome. Also, Sha'ir//Erudite into Mind Mage 10 (http://www.angelfire.com/pro/demon_1/prc_mind_mage.htm) is probably your best build option if you want to go strictly by pure optimization potential (nothing wrong with your build, but from your post it sounds like you're gunning for your most powerful options).


Edit:


If I had an Archivist (which I do) then used the Alternative Spell Source feat couldn't I then learn it as a Psionic Power for the Erudite?

I would argue no on the grounds that you don't learn a metamagicked spell as far as I'm aware, you learn the core spell.

[JKTrickster]

Oh dear lord Soul Crystal - its amazing. It's beautiful. It's the best. :smallbiggrin:


Ahh I wonder if Dragon magazine is allowed...but I did get Alternative Source Spell so let's see!

How does the Sha'ir class work? It seems like its pretty clunky and I don't quite understand it.

EDIT:

Aww man double progression PrCs will probably be not allowed.

I mean...Archivist/Dwermokeeper with Divine Metamagic is still good right?

[Spuddles]

Mind that the RAW of erudite makes it such that any time you have more prestige levels than erudite, you cannot learn any more erudite powers.

[JKTrickster]

Really? Why?

Doesn't matter anyway - I'm going full Erudite on one side and PrC on the other.

[Spuddles]

Really? Why?

Doesn't matter anyway - I'm going full Erudite on one side and PrC on the other.

Because that's what it says in the class description.

[Wings of Peace]

Because that's what it says in the class description.

I would argue that this point is open to some debate. The exact text says psionic "class"es not prestige classes. More relevantly though, it could be said that because psionic prestige classes don't themselves grant the ability to manifest (instead simply progressing a pre-existing manifesting class) they are exempt from the clause.

Edit:


Oh dear lord Soul Crystal - its amazing. It's beautiful. It's the best. :smallbiggrin:


Ahh I wonder if Dragon magazine is allowed...but I did get Alternative Source Spell so let's see!

How does the Sha'ir class work? It seems like its pretty clunky and I don't quite understand it.


I don't have access to the book right now so I'd ask some one else too. However, from what I remember, your spell know and spells per day are the same and can be any sor/wiz spell + some cleric domain spells. At the start of each day you prepare spells (send out your Gen). HOWEVER! If you don't know a spell but have witnessed it before via spellcraft you can still have your Gen prepare that spell for you.

Think of it as spell preparation with lots of extra checks. What makes the Sha'ir interesting is that those domain spell it can learn are cast as divine spells so it's able to cast both Divine and Arcane spells. This is what opens up a lot of tricks to the Sha'ir that other classes can't replicate.

[Psyren]

Soul Crystal is hands-down the best Erudite power but comes online fairly late. Once you get it though, definitely make it a mainstay in your daily power list.

Metaconcert is another way to sneak powers past your limit (the entity manifests them, not you, and knows your entire repertoire) but you'll need a psionic accomplice. If your psicrystal gets feats, be sure to have it learn Hidden/Wild Talent - this will make it psionic and thus allow you to MC with it. Metaconcert's manifesting time means that this will typically be used only for utility powers, however.



So putting together a quick list, I'd go with:

Body Outside Body: Create duplicates of you that are friendly to you and your friends and obey even suicidal orders.
Dominate Monster: As dominate person, but any creature.
Hypercognition: You can deduce almost anything.
Mental Pinnacle: You gain the mental powers of a psion.
Polymorph Any Object: Changes any subject into anything else.
Schism: Your partitioned mind can manifest lower level powers.
Shades: As shadow conjuration, but up to 8th level and 80% real.
Shadow Envocation, Greater: As shadow evocation, but up to 7th level and 60% real.
Shapechange: Transforms you into any creature, and change forms once per round.
Summon Elemental Monolith: You conjure a tremendously powerful creature known as an elemental monolith.
Time Stop: You act freely for 1d4+1 rounds.

I'm not sure about some of these suggestions:

- BOB is useful only if your DM rules that transparency does not apply to it. His duplicates explicitly won't be able to use their divine side, and potentially not the psionic side either, making them ineffective. Without melee capability he won't get much out of the spell.

- Both Dominate Monster and Time Stop have cheaper psionic versions; these can be employed more efficiently as the situation warrants without losing effectiveness.

- For Hypercognition I would rely on an item - you're unlikely to need to solve the plot multiple times per day.

Schism is a great suggestion though - the partitioned mind can take mental move actions (in place of its bonus standard), allowing it to spam Dread Secret and regain your focus for continuous metapsionics.


I would argue that this point is open to some debate. The exact text says psionic "class"es not prestige classes. More relevantly though, it could be said that because psionic prestige classes don't themselves grant the ability to manifest (instead simply progressing a pre-existing manifesting class) they are exempt from the clause.

I agree - this ruling would depend on whether your DM considers a psionic PrC to be a "psionic class." While I would clearly say yes in the case of, say, a War Mind, others without their own manifesting progressions would be less certain.



I don't have access to the book right now so I'd ask some one else too. However, from what I remember, your spell know and spells per day are the same and can be any sor/wiz spell + some cleric domain spells. At the start of each day you prepare spells (send out your Gen). HOWEVER! If you don't know a spell but have witnessed it before via spellcraft you can still have your Gen prepare that spell for you.

Actually, you don't have to send your gen out at the start of the day - you can do so at any time, even during combat. This makes Sha'irs very versatile as they do not need restful calm or an environment free of distractions to retrieve the right spell for a given situation. (Of course, for spells outside their known repertoire, this can be impractical if time is a factor.) They can even retrieve metamagicked versions of those same spells on the fly, and cast them without increasing the casting time.

I summarized how the class functions before, and will repost it here:


I'll see if I can summarize. 3.5 Sha'irs basically have three categories of spells:

1) Arcane and known
2) Arcane and unknown
3) Divine

- "Known" means "I chose to add this spell to my repertoire by leveling up" (identical to how a sorcerer learns spells.) However, unlike a sorcerer, knowing a spell is not enough to allow a Sha'ir to cast it - it just makes it quicker for his gen to bargain for it. Grabbing "known" spells only takes a few rounds each, letting you feasibly grab one or two even during combat (at least the lower ones.) It also means that you only need a few minutes to an hour to fill all your slots with these, a comparable amount of time to a wizard filling all his own slots.

- "Unknown" means "this spell isn't in my spells known, but I've seen it before and identified it with a Spellcraft check." (Obviously, the DM needs to step in here and decide if out-of-play information, like backstories, counts for this.) Unknown spells take a few minutes each to grab, letting you feasibly grab them between fights. Grabbing a lot of them can take an hour or two though.

- Divine spells are their own category - it doesn't matter to the bargaining time if the Sha'ir has seen them before or not. However, they take much longer (hours each) to bargain for, and can only come from particular cleric domains - namely Air, Chaos, Earth, Fire, Knowledge, Law, Luck, Sun and Water. The Sha'ir doesn't actually gain these domains, he can just pull spells from them. But they are still divine spells, opening Sha'irs up to some neat tricks (like self-qualifying for theurges etc.)


The second component to Sha'ir preparation is the bargain itself - the Sha'ir makes a Diplomacy check whenever he sends his gen off to get spells. The check is modified by things like spell level (higher spells are harder of course), metamagic (the bigger the spell level adjustment, the harder the check), whether it is known or not (known arcane are the easiest to get, unknown divines get a steep penalty), a boost from your Sha'ir level, and finally, a stacking penalty for each time you've tried and failed to get the same spell in a given day. As Sha'ir's are Cha-based and have Diplomacy as a class skill, this shouldn't be too hard even for your most complicated toys. If the check fails, your gen comes back empty-handed and needs to be resent; if it fails badly, he might be kept back from you for a few extra minutes.

The final component comes into play after a spell is successfully retrieved - it stays prepared (i.e. ready to cast) for a number of hours = your Sha'ir level. If you haven't cast it by then, the slot empties and you can put something else in it. So once you hit 8 or above, you can prepare a bunch of spells and reasonably count on having them active all day, similar to a wizard.


In practice, they work out to a hybrid of wizard and sorcerer with some divine magic thrown in. Very cool and interesting class. And as noted above, having access to the entire wizard/sorcerer list makes them pretty powerful.

[JKTrickster]

Should I dip Thrallherd on my Erudite side to pick up another CL 17 caster? This could even be a divine caster so my divine side could be something completely different (like Wizard 5/Incantatrix 7/Iot7FV) for even more power?

[Wings of Peace]

Should I dip Thrallherd on my Erudite side to pick up another CL 17 caster? This could even be a divine caster so my divine side could be something completely different (like Wizard 5/Incantatrix 7/Iot7FV) for even more power?

You could... but from there you may as well take Leadership and from there you may as well make all your high level minions have levels in Thrallherd along with Leadership and from there you've gone from high-op into "why bother having a party" territory. It's not that it's a bad idea, it's more a matter of once you start making multi-character characters you've essentially rendered your actual party redundant.

[JKTrickster]

Actually Thrallherds can't have leadership and vice versa.

But yeah its less of a "party" and more of a "each man survives on their own until they die". We can't instigate PvP conflict unless we ask for it, but we literally don't need to help each other.

[Psyren]

If it truly is "extremely high OP" then I suppose Thrallherd makes sense to be on the table. I'm not a big fan of that level of cheese myself but then I've never played in a no-holds-barred campaign.

I recommend getting a Psionic Artificer or Warlock cohort (or both) as they can craft obscure items for both of your halves to learn from. If Magic Mart is open for business this is less of a requirement.

[JKTrickster]

Magic Mart is open and custom magic items are allowed (no "LG Wizard My character basically" cost reductions though).

The DM actually says he *doesn't* want us to survive. The idea is to play characters no one would ever let you play ANYWAY, get them killed (either quickly or slowly) then play OTHER characters you always wanted to play (but no one would let you).

So I thought - I wonder how much spellcasting can I stack on one caster?

Which is why I thought up a (lame) triple 9's build.

[Rubik]

Use Metamorphosis to qualify for illithid savant (from Savage Species) and instead of going erudite, what if you went psion or society mind, then ate the brains of a couple of erudites to get the erudite learning (but not the Unique Powers Per Day restriction) and the Spell-to-Power ability? If you don't want eat sentient beings, use Ice Assassin to create clones to eat instead of eating actual people.

What's your starting level?