How to stop a spiked chain tripper

[ohil]

So my dm seems to loves these and has all ready let me know they will be really common.

In the current game his last tripper kicked my rouges ass. He couldn't do any damage to me, but I couldn't stand up long enough to attack back. It was annoying and the rest of the party ended up almost dying with out me.

I'm currently the main damage dealer, as a level 6 gnome rouge who refuses to attack anyone with out flanking, begs to get healed after 1 point of damage and has the highest AC in the party by at least 4. (So will survive well beyond everyone else except the bard who stays even farther away from battle than me with no sneak attacking allowed).

Anyway my dm has decided to take a break from that game and is making a new game to give us all a change of pace.

And I know this trouble will be coming and since he said it was common I don't feel bad about designing ways in to my character to stop him.

In particular looking for feats to help. I'm playing a melee character. Probably high armor low dex.

[Gildedragon]

Tanglefoot bags.

[The Random NPC]

Three things you'll need to take into account:
Don't get hit: unlikely since it targets touch attack.
Don't provoke AoO: can be done, but does nothing for when it's the tripper's turn.
Win the opposed check: At that point, you may as well be a tripper yourself.

I'd say the best way to stop them is to win the opposed check. If you can, find a race that is Large and Stable. Or you can be Small, ride a dog and pimp out your Ride check to avoid being tripped.
EDIT: Yeah, that's easier, use tanglefoot bags.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Put ranks in tumble and backflip right past the tripper.

Also, you shouldn't be completely immobilized. When you're standing up from the prone position, you still count as prone, so he can't AoO you back down, although he can get a regular attack with a +4 bonus.

[Artillery]

There are a number of ways to do better against trippers.

Increased Size or Strong Build;+4 per catergory
Be a Dwarf or more then 2 legged creature; +4 for stability
Steadfast Boots; +4 to resist being tripped, bullrushed; moved
All of those are untyped bonuses and stack.
Being incorpreal; immune
Being a snake or ooze; immune if not climbing

Also if you get up as a swift action it won't provoke AoO. So either the skill trick(Back on your Feet) or Boots of Agile Leaping.

[The Random NPC]

Also if you get up as a swift action it won't provoke AoO. So either the skill trick(Back on your Feet) or Boots of Agile Leaping.

That isn't a rule, the skill trick and the magic item just have an exception for getting up. In fact, the boots allow all getting up from prone to be AoO-less.

[ohil]

My class will probably be fighter or something like that maybe a dip in barbarian.

I am a changeling for race. 5th level warshapper. So just trying to figure out ways to stop him. Boots of agile leaping and stead fast boots are a good idea. The AOO are not a worry for me, most of the time.

any other ways to beat the opposed role?

[An Enemy Spy]

Wouldn't a simple solution be to invest in a good ranged attack?

[The Random NPC]

My class will probably be fighter or something like that maybe a dip in barbarian.

I am a changeling for race. 5th level warshapper. So just trying to figure out ways to stop him. Boots of agile leaping and stead fast boots are a good idea. The AOO are not a worry for me, most of the time.

any other ways to beat the opposed role?
Other than being Large, having multiple legs, or being Stable? None that I can think of.

Wouldn't a simple solution be to invest in a good ranged attack?

Yes, but it doesn't quite fit into the limitations of the OP.
EDIT: Also it doesn't stop the tripper from running up to you and doing his thing.

[ohil]

Wouldn't a simple solution be to invest in a good ranged attack?

Warshapper 5 natural attacks for your 1 ranged attack. :) no no that's not an option. I want to have a melee fighter.

[avr]

Anything which gives you a chance of being missed - blinking, displacement, whatever - is your best bet if you must take on a tripper in their area of strength.

BTW - Rogue, not rouge please. It bothers me.

[ohil]

Anything which gives you a chance of being missed - blinking, displacement, whatever - is your best bet if you must take on a tripper in their area of strength.

anyway I'll be able to get an item that does that with only 9k?

[Twilightwyrm]

Get 1 level of Thief-Acrobat. It gives you the kick-up ability, that let's you stand up as a free action w/o provoking an AoO. You just need 8 ranks in Balance, Climb, Jump, and Tumble, which are all class skills for you anyways. You could probably take it next level and be fine, and you will essentially negate the enemy's entire strategy.
As for avoiding being tripped in the first place, there are a few easy ways. Increasing size, touch AC and stability have already been mentioned, but I'll add another: magical flight. This is to say, the ability to fly without wings or similarly physical propulsion. The Rules Compendium established that a creature that does not rely on limbs for locomotion (pg. 145) simple cannot be tripped. Therefore, a simple fly spell, or indeed any similar means of flight, will allow your party to render any member they don't want tripped totally immune to the tactic for minutes per level.

[ohil]

Wings of Flying 5,500 :) I'll still have 3,500 left for armor and such. Still I wish their was feat to counteract improved trip. something to at least let me trip him back.

[nedz]

Here's a four point plan


Build a Tripper
Win Initiative
Trip him First
Profit

[avr]

anyway I'll be able to get an item that does that with only 9k?

I think there's a smoking weapon enhancement which gives concealment (20% miss) & is +1 equivalent, so about 8K for a permanent effect.

You could get a wand of Blur for 4.5K. Displacement or Blink would be 11 250 gold which might be better value if you could stretch that far. Eternal wands are about the same cost I think.

I'm sure someone who knows the MIC could find something else to fit your budget.

Oh, and if you could spare 2 feats and can use ToB, you could get Martial Study (some shadow hand maneuver) & Martial Stance (Child of Shadow) to do it under your own power. A dip in Swordsage or the Thief-Acrobat suggestion above might be easier come to think of it.

Edit: if 9K is your total budget, forget the items above. I didn't know flying was a get-out-of-trip free card, use that, sure.

[Malak'ai]

Become a Tripper yourself. Be a Dwarf and get youself some Steadfast Boots and fight the DM at his own game. If he does manage to get you on your back (or face/side) then suck up the -4 to hit and bring the prick down into the dust with you.

[TopCheese]

Warlock...

There is a build where you can cast darkness on yourself but you can see in magical darkness. The tripper can't hit what they can't see (or target).

Plus a Fighter/Barbarian/Warlock is just a ton of fun.

[Gwendol]

Kill him. Use a charging barbarian with a reach weapon (guisarme).

[Jack_Simth]

So my dm seems to loves these and has all ready let me know they will be really common.

In the current game his last tripper kicked my rouges ass. He couldn't do any damage to me, but I couldn't stand up long enough to attack back
So don't. It's a -4 penalty to attack from Prone (as well as a -4 penalty to melee AC...). Very annoying, yes, but not the end of the world of itself. If you're using a Crossbow, it's not even that.

[White_Drake]

Anything which gives you a chance of being missed - blinking, displacement, whatever - is your best bet if you must take on a tripper in their area of strength.

BTW - Rogue, not rouge please. It bothers me.

My DM doesn't allow Rouges, he says they're way overpowdered.

[Curmudgeon]

You're just 1 level away from having a solution: the Balance skill. Complete Adventurer introduced a new skill use to allow a Balance check (instead of just a DEX check) to resist being tripped. However, the minimum requirement is 10 ranks in Balance. Add a masterwork tool specific to resist trip attempts and you're at least +2 (circumstance bonus) to your check right there. Get a semi-custom skill (competence bonus) item, say about +5 for 2500 gp, and you're now at +7. And because your skill ranks will increase much faster than your tripper's STR modifier, once you get to where you're successfully resisting trips you'll only resist more easily as you advance in levels.

[hymer]

@ White_Drake: A very wise man, clearly.

@ OP: Plenty of good advice here, I'll just add my little bit: Sunder works on spiked chains too.

[lord_khaine]

There is a build where you can cast darkness on yourself but you can see in magical darkness. The tripper can't hit what they can't see (or target).

Not going to work, its just the regular darkness spell, and that one might as well be renamed shadows.

[Norin]

Not the answer you want i guess, but...

1: Play a caster (Wiz, cleric or druid)
2: Kill the trippers with your awesome magic.
3: ???
4: Profit.

[Ketiara]

Prone attack feat from complete warrior, lets you make an attack when prone with no penalties, and lets you stand up for free if its succesfull. And attacks against you while prone wont get any bonusses.

This might be an idea.

[MrLemon]

I also concur on Thief-Acrobat (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041210b&page=3). Also note that it negates the penalty for full-speed tumbling, so with a 14+ tumble you are basically immune to trippers.

[O.L.Scudmungus]

Throw your hands in the and wail in despair.

When your DM asks ''What's up?'' explain how silly the Spiked Chain as a weapon idea and how you're very very upset.

Then run.

[BowStreetRunner]

I am a big fan of spiked-chain tripper builds, having played them very effectively myself. I also faced a DM who was very good at getting around my primary ability so am quite aware of the inherent weaknesses of the build.


Trip attacks go against your Touch AC, so anything that raises this will be helpful.
The defender uses the higher of either STR or DEX in the opposed check (or Ride if they are mounted), so you can raise one of these in order to make yourself less vulnerable to tripping. Note that raising DEX also raises your Touch AC.
Size penalties can be brutal when resolving Trip attacks. In fact, you cannot even attempt a trip attack against a foe two size categories larger. Don't be the smallest character involved in the opposed check.
Most Trip attack builds rely on Attacks of Opportunity in order to lock down their opponents. Things that allow you to avoid taking AoO will be a huge help.
Dedicated trippers generally become fairly useless without a weapon that allows trip attacks. If you can Disarm or Sunder that weapon, you will effectively cripple them.


I personally find it annoying when targets of my trip attacks have the skill tricks Back on Your Feet and Nimble Stand, both of which prevent AoOs. Characters able to use Ranger and Assassin spells are always using Lightfoot as a way to get through my threatened area. I also hate Cover (even partial) and Total Concealment, as these prevent me from making AoO - and yes, Tower Shields are a pain in the rear for a dedicated tripper like me. It is also very annoying when the party caster starts popping Enlarge spells on all of my targets.

[killem2]

Rust monsters!!!! :)

[Vizzerdrix]

Rust monsters!!!! :)

This! I've seen guides on how to rear them someplace.... (http://community.wizards.com/rumbletiger/blog/?message=WW91ciBwb3N0IGhhcyBub3cgYmVlbiBzdWJtaXR0Z WQh)Here it is.


Also use marbles, tanglefoot bags, shapesand, and eggshell grenades to slow them down in the early levels. A rusting gauntlet, schemas and eternal wands should see you through the mid to late game.

[Narse]

Wings of Flying 5,500 :) I'll still have 3,500 left for armor and such. Still I wish their was feat to counteract improved trip. something to at least let me trip him back.

I may be mistaken, but I believe this has a 20' wingspan in 3e, which will most likely prevent you from being able to use it as an option indoors most of the time. If you're playing 3.5e, it has no wingspan and you can just fly around willy-nilly, but the cost is 54,000g in 3.5e.

[limejuicepowder]

Here's a question: can a character ready an action and sunder a reach weapon with a non-reach weapon when they are attacked?

If yes (and basic logic says yes, even if RAW says no) then a dip in to warblade for the 2nd level sundering maneuver might be an option. Warblade is a solid dip anyways, and it saves you from taking the feat. Or mountain hammer, if you really want to kill the weapon dead.

Best miss chance at low levels is invisibility. Either get a wand and UMD it, or ToB for cloak of shadow. It won't save you for the whole fight but you'll at least be able to close the distance.

Smoke sticks might work too, and if you take blind fight it won't hurt you too badly.

What kind of melee-er do you want to be? With natural weapons a warshaper could make a very respectable grapple-fighter. Use any of the 10 methods suggested to close the distance, then grapple his ass. To use grappling as a niche/special move all you really need is imp grapple, so it's a fairly cheap investment.

[Curmudgeon]

Here's a question: can a character ready an action and sunder a reach weapon with a non-reach weapon when they are attacked?
Nope. In its simplifications for combat, D&D resolves all melee attacks in the attacker's space. So, even though the attacker's weapon must necessarily enter the defender's space, by RAW it stays put.

It's not an unreasonable house rule to add, but be aware that you can never rely on house rules from DM to DM (or sometimes even with the same DM for a different game).

[Talya]

My DM doesn't allow Rouges, he says they're way overpowdered.

This seems vaguely familiar.

[Jerthanis]

Spiked Chain Trippers really manage to make a type of character that can't be realistically beaten by humanoids of average size without the other humanoid having much higher numbers or just being the same thing but better.

So really, disable them with a Tanglefoot Bag, an Entangle or Web spell, or have a summon or animal companion with Improved Grab and deal with the rest of the encounter. Come back to him and shoot him with arrows if he's inside a web, tangle or bag, stab him with swords if he's half in a crocodile's mouth.

It's just not an option that rewards you for playing his game, so you've got to change the game.

If you MUST engage chain trippers 'legit', I'd say be a Whirling, Lion Totem Barbarian with a longspear, leap attack and Improved initiative. Take him out before he gets a chance to start trying his combo.

[The Random NPC]

Nope. In its simplifications for combat, D&D resolves all melee attacks in the attacker's space. So, even though the attacker's weapon must necessarily enter the defender's space, by RAW it stays put.

It's not an unreasonable house rule to add, but be aware that you can never rely on house rules from DM to DM (or sometimes even with the same DM for a different game).

IIRC, you can sunder Hydra's heads by readying an action to do so. I'm not sure if that is a specific exemption though.

[BowStreetRunner]

I didn't know flying was a get-out-of-trip free card...

It's not. Page 145 of the Rules Compendium makes it clear that you can trip a flying target and if it is tripped it is treated as if it failed to maintain its minimum forward speed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/movement.htm#movingInThreeDimensions).

[White_Drake]

This seems vaguely familiar.

I believe I may have cribbed it from somewhere else on these boards; if the person who came up with it reads this, you have my most sincere apologies (and gratitude).

[nedz]

I believe I may have cribbed it from somewhere else on these boards; if the person who came up with it reads this, you have my most sincere apologies (and gratitude).

I do believe you are blushing, and no it wasn't my gag.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

BowStreetRunner mentioned that mounted characters use their ride check to oppose trips. Generally speaking it's easier to pump a skill check than it is to pump an ability check, so go to town and resist that trip attempt on a 1. You can also use that pumped-up ride check to protect your mount and grant you cover if you specialize in mounted combat.

The basic counter to trippers is big, strong brutes. A changeling warshaper can pull that off nicely. If you're willing for your changeling to be in the form of a Goliath (RoS) most of the time, you could dip Barbarian and swap regular rage for Mountain Rage (RoS). That nets you +6 strength and large size when raging. If you started with 18 strength, 2 boosts into strength, +6 mountain rage, +2 item (conservatively), +4 warshaper, that's 32 strength for +11 against trips. Large gets you another +4. Improved Trip is a nice feat anyway, and you can pick it up without any prereqs if you go Barbarian 2 and Wolf Totem (SRD). That's another +4.

If you're worried about getting in reach of the spiked chain tripper and getting tripped, you can tumble. If tumbling doesn't work (no available skill points, or thicket of blades), short-range teleportation is pretty cheap. Anklet of Translocation (MiC) gets you a swift action 10' teleport 2/day for 1400. Shadow Cloak (DotU) gets you immediate action teleport 3/day, among other things. You're probably not using your swift actions for other stuff anyway.

Edit: Math, grammar

[gomipile]

It's not. Page 145 of the Rules Compendium makes it clear that you can trip a flying target and if it is tripped it is treated as if it failed to maintain its minimum forward speed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/movement.htm#movingInThreeDimensions).

Only if the target has wings, according to the entire rule from Rules Compendium.

[herrhauptmann]

It's not. Page 145 of the Rules Compendium makes it clear that you can trip a flying target and if it is tripped it is treated as if it failed to maintain its minimum forward speed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/movement.htm#movingInThreeDimensions).
Trip target with wings (as stated). Sorta hard to trip a conveyance that isn't a creature. It's sort like tripping someones wagon.
But if trip lets you pull someone off a horse, then trip should let you snag someone off a carpet.

Question to OP:
Can changeling take human only feats? I vaguely remember some partly human races taht can take human feats. If so, snag Jotunbrud.
Jotunbrud is not powerful build and has no effect on weapon size. But it does let you count as if large for purposes of opposed rolls like trip, grapple, and sunder.
The skill tricks have been mentioned. The two stand up ones, and I think there's one that lets you crawl away without an AOO. The crawl one is sorta meh, but you can only use a given skill trick once per fight I think, and if you're stuck in a trip loop, crawling out of his reach might be useful. Better if you can lure him into reach of your allies.

Regarding those who say to take pouncing barbarian something to kill him first, I got another question. How often does he give knockdown to his chain-wielding maniacs? Or steadfast boots? If the CWM has both of those, he's got two attempts to try and knock you down before you can even hit with your charge.

[Jerthanis]

Regarding those who say to take pouncing barbarian something to kill him first, I got another question. How often does he give knockdown to his chain-wielding maniacs? Or steadfast boots? If the CWM has both of those, he's got two attempts to try and knock you down before you can even hit with your charge.

Wait, do these options supercede or counter the ability to have a Reach weapon and charge him without granting AoOs? If you can't avoid the AoOs, Pouncing Barbarian is the WORST possible option, since you WILL get tripped and held in a limbo of barely managing to hit him back until you get fatigued and lose. If you can't avoid AoOs by fighting reach with reach, you're pretty much mandated to trap, isolate or disable the guy if you're not making a Tripping Maniac build yourself.

[hymer]

@ 'Rouges are overpowdered': I've used it regularly, so it just might come via me. But I didn't coin it. Here's my source, for what it's worth: http://www.darklegacycomics.com/41.html

[herrhauptmann]

Wait, do these options supercede or counter the ability to have a Reach weapon and charge him without granting AoOs? If you can't avoid the AoOs, Pouncing Barbarian is the WORST possible option, since you WILL get tripped and held in a limbo of barely managing to hit him back until you get fatigued and lose. If you can't avoid AoOs by fighting reach with reach, you're pretty much mandated to trap, isolate or disable the guy if you're not making a Tripping Maniac build yourself.

The steadfast boots let you pretend that any weapon you hold in two hands is 'set' against a charge, even if it can't normally be set against charges. That includes spiked chains. The set attack happens before the charge is resolved, as soon as you come into his reach. And it doesn't take up an AOO.
Then if he's got knockdown, any hit can initiate a trip, not just the ones on his turn.

So the only way to charge him without getting hit (for doubledamage too) is to have greater reach than him. So against a human with spiked chain, you need 15ft of reach somehow. I'm pretty sure the longspear is 10ft.
If the CWM has equal reach to the barbarian, then it's just one hit at double damage before the charge is resolved. But if he's got knockdown, that's still going to result in a trip attempt.

If the CWM has better reach than the charging barbarian, then he gets the set attack, AND an AOO when the barbarian leaves a threatened square.

[Jerthanis]

The steadfast boots let you pretend that any weapon you hold in two hands is 'set' against a charge, even if it can't normally be set against charges. That includes spiked chains. The set attack happens before the charge is resolved, as soon as you come into his reach. And it doesn't take up an AOO.
Then if he's got knockdown, any hit can initiate a trip, not just the ones on his turn.

Do they still have to take the action to set the charge? Because setting a charge is the most hilariously self defeating, pointless use of a standard action ever, but if you're just always set against all charges ever, that kind of takes charging off the table, since you never know when someone will hit you back for it.

[herrhauptmann]

Do they still have to take the action to set the charge? Because setting a charge is the most hilariously self defeating, pointless use of a standard action ever, but if you're just always set against all charges ever, that kind of takes charging off the table, since you never know when someone will hit you back for it.

Always set against the charge so long as you've got the two handed weapon. Pretty nice for such a cheap item.
And it gives you +4 against being bullrushed, overrun, or tripped, which doesn't help you in your offensive trip/bullrush/overrun attempts, but is still nice.
1400gp
edit:
Yeah they shut down charges pretty well. Whenever I see a DM complaining that someone at their table made a ubercharger of some variety, I always suggest these boots.
edit 2:
And of course a charger should wear them too. After he charges into a spot and kills a bunch of people, melee enemies are going to counter charge him. Having the boots means he has a fair chance of surviving their attempt.

[Jerthanis]

Always set against the charge so long as you've got the two handed weapon. Pretty nice for such a cheap item.
And it gives you +4 against being bullrushed, overrun, or tripped, which doesn't help you in your offensive trip/bullrush/overrun attempts, but is still nice.
1400gp
edit:
Yeah they shut down charges pretty well. Whenever I see a DM complaining that someone at their table made a ubercharger of some variety, I always suggest these boots.

Huh, wow, that's kind of ridiculous. Good to hear about, but I think it's sort of a case of the writers not realizing how good the effect was, considering the price. Then again, setting against a charge is an almost insultingly awful tactic, so maybe it NEEDS to be that good.

[Gwendol]

So, get bracers or whatever to extend reach another 5-10'. Or just get Large. That never hurts a charger.

[Jerthanis]

So, get bracers or whatever to extend reach another 5-10'. Or just get Large. That never hurts a charger.

I sort of feel like making an arms race of size/reach tends to put you in the position of hoping your opponent isn't as big/reachy as you. If you're both using reach, you can enlarge yourself for 5 more feet of reach, and they can enlarge themselves, putting yourself where you were. You can get a magic item or feat or option to add 5 more feet, but so can they.

All good options, and you should pursue them with all gusto, but I feel like you either need something that is a tactic that utterly trumps the tripper, or be a tripper yourself. Honestly, my charging whirling barbarian was a worst case scenario suggetion where "If you have to play his game, try to win before he gets a turn". When that option was undermined by a 1400 GP magic item, I will return to "Don't play that game" as my chief suggestion.

[Gwendol]

Absolutely. The rogue could just use a bag of marbles and get the tripper flatfooted (unless it has combat reflexes, which is likely but perhaps not always the case). My point is that trippers typically are very good at keeping the opposition down, less so at simply killing them. The barbarian can skip the charging and just move & attack if the boots are suspected to be in play.

Best way of defeating trippers though? Magic.

[Togo]

Is there a particular reason why you need to stand up?

Just stay prone. Yeah, the penalties are annoying, but you'll manage better putting your resources into improving Ac and HP than you will countering trip.

Alternatively, have you tried just jumping at him? A decent jump check should clear enough squares so that you're not relying on legs for locamotion at the time when he gets an attack of opportunity. Combine with a grapple.

[herrhauptmann]

I sort of feel like making an arms race of size/reach tends to put you in the position of hoping your opponent isn't as big/reachy as you. If you're both using reach, you can enlarge yourself for 5 more feet of reach, and they can enlarge themselves, putting yourself where you were. You can get a magic item or feat or option to add 5 more feet, but so can they.

All good options, and you should pursue them with all gusto, but I feel like you either need something that is a tactic that utterly trumps the tripper, or be a tripper yourself. Honestly, my charging whirling barbarian was a worst case scenario suggetion where "If you have to play his game, try to win before he gets a turn". When that option was undermined by a 1400 GP magic item, I will return to "Don't play that game" as my chief suggestion.

Reach weapons double your reach if you've already got more than 5ft reach.
But yeah, an arms race is a bad idea. It's worse if you're the only person (besides DM) doing the race.
The rest of the party will get caught in the fallout, and where teh NPCs were just decent at tripping the rest of the party, they'll now be decent at tripping you, and unstoppable at tripping the rest of the party.

[ohil]

Anchoring, Greater [Synergy] +1 bonus MIC

Found this +10 to resist, bull rushes, trip and one other. Now he can try and trip all he wants.

Thank you everyone.

[The Random NPC]

I think the tag means you have to pay for [S]Anchoring, Lesser and Anchoring. Or at least treat Anchoring, Greater as the sum of all lessor Anchoring special abilities (so if Anchoring, Lesser was a +1 and Anchoring was +1 you need to treat Anchoring, Greater as a +3 +2).
EDIT: Yeah the tag means there's a prerequisite. In this case it is Anchoring, as detailed on page 5 under Armor Subtypes.