witch problems (pf)

[Ryulin18]

I'm having real problems with a witch in the game I'm running. He has clearly shown that his hexes and cackle do not need verbal or somatic components.

As such, he has cursed everything to oblivion without hassle.

Can I get any advice on how to counteract a witch without throwing more witches against hi.?

[Ryulin18]

Side note. He is playing a half orc scarred witch doctor, the team is currently level 3.

[Wings of Peace]

It's hard to give advice to this question only because he's playing his Witch in a fairly smart fashion without doing anything overly abusive by the sound of things.

[Treblain]

There's a Hex Ward (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/h/hex-ward) spell. Homebrew a mass version for enemy casters to use or create an item with it, if necessary.

Don't let him stand still and spam hex/cackle; give him reasons to use his move action for something else. Know his hexes and make sure he's not reusing one that can only be used on a target 1/day.

[TopCheese]

If an enemy knows he is using mind effecting or charms....

Oozes and undead >:D

Though I don't think the Witch is really doi.ng much to warrant any concern.... What are the other party members?

[Private]

I've had to plan for a witch as well. Here are a few of the tricks I've done:

1. Have him fight something immune to mind affecting.
2. Have him fight something that has "see in darkness" that can cast Deeper Darkness. It's difficult for a Witch to hex what he can't see.
3. Cast Blindness/Deafness on him. See above.
4. Have him fight something invisible. See above.
5. Have things that can get in close quickly. Bypass the tank and head straight for the Witch and he'll probably need to spend some actions moving and eating AoOs.
6. Have many opponents that he'll have to choose from. Untill 11th level he can't target more than one creature with a hex, so lots of enemies make him less effective.

[Psyren]

Which hexes is he using?

Cackle has short range (30ft) meaning that Witches who want to use it repeatedly have to put themselves in danger. If the rest of the party counters by protecting the witch, then congratulations! You've gotten the players to cooperate to defeat you and are therefore doing your job. Or if the Witch is flying/invisible/hiding behind summons, congratulations again for getting them to burn resources.

[grarrrg]

Drop rocks on him.
Lets see him 'cackle' his way out of that!

But seriously.
He's only level 3, just throw a lot of weak critters at them, he can only Hex one thing per round.

[CIDE]

What's the rest of the party and how optimized is the entire group?

[Ryulin18]

The group is level 4 now, long session yesterday. The group is as such;

Level 4 Bugbear Monk (Tank and damager. Got lucky on a reincarnate.)
Level 4 Human Blackblade Magus.
Level 4 Half Orc Inquisitor.
Level 4 Scarred Witch Doctor. Source of easy fighting.

The monk and inquisitor are the tanks/damage and the magus is the wild card.

So far the Witch has taken misfortune, Slumber and cackle and negated 60%+ of the fights with slumber/cackle/someone coup de grace...Even 2 "boss fights". Now he is just pissing around, thinking of taking flight and finding a way of being permanently invisible.

[Ryulin18]

The magus and monk are rationally powerful. Decent in all respects, powerful in their own way.

The witch is a horrible power builder, he also made the inquisitor. Both are fast approaching super powers.

[TopCheese]

The group is level 4 now, long session yesterday. The group is as such;

Level 4 Bugbear Monk (Tank and damager. Got lucky on a reincarnate.)
Level 4 Human Blackblade Magus.
Level 4 Half Orc Inquisitor.
Level 4 Scarred Witch Doctor. Source of easy fighting.

The monk and inquisitor are the tanks/damage and the magus is the wild card.

So far the Witch has taken misfortune, Slumber and cackle and negated 60%+ of the fights with slumber/cackle/someone coup de grace...Even 2 "boss fights". Now he is just pissing around, thinking of taking flight and finding a way of being permanently invisible.

From the pfsrd.com

Cackle (Su): A witch can cackle madly as a move action. Any creature that is within 30 feet that is under the effects of an agony hex, charm hex, evil eye hex, fortune hex, or misfortune hex caused by the witch has the duration of that hex extended by 1 round.

Slumber can't be cackled normally though the misfortune one can be.

Unless there is an ACF that let's him cackle the slumber you should erase his character...

[StreamOfTheSky]

Slumber lasts for round/level on its own, so it doesn't need cackle (even at level 1, you just use it when an ally is already in melee with the target, or ready to use it).

[TopCheese]

Slumber lasts for round/level on its own, so it doesn't need cackle (even at level 1, you just use it when an ally is already in melee with the target, or ready to use it).

Well yes but if the PC is purposly cheating to make slumber last longer then rocks should fall.

I recently played with a guy who did stuff like that to boost already powerful spells. The DM and other players had to start keeping an eye on him since he tried to slip stuff past the group like that.

OP: You should put more cowbell traps in your game. Traps of blind/deafness, silence, darkness, ongoing poison damage, etc etc... That will keep him busy sometimes.

[Talentless]

The magus and monk are rationally powerful. Decent in all respects, powerful in their own way.

The witch is a horrible power builder, he also made the inquisitor. Both are fast approaching super powers.

Are the Monk and Magus players still having fun?

If so, no need to do anything quite yet, although as they get more powerful, you could have word of the team's prowess and descriptions of their common tactics start to spread and start having intelligent opponents come prepared with some counters.

If they aren't having fun, you can either notch the power level of the game up a few rungs of the ladder by having the optimizer player retroactively re-tool the Monk and Magus to be on par with the Inquisitor and the Witch in optimization terms.

Or you can talk the Witch player into toning it down slightly so the other players don't get outshone quite so much.

Or you can just passive-aggressive counter the Witch/Inquisitor exclusively.

I really don't recommend that last one, tends to be an IRL Drama game killer.

[Psyren]

Use more undead, constructs, oozes, plants. Anything mindless will hose a witch, or at least force her to mix up her tactics. Hell, even elves or something that counters magical sleep are fine.

[beforemath]

The Slumber hex is actually inferior to the Sleep spell at low levels since it (the Sleep spell) has a 10 ft radius and can be used multiple times per day on the same creature(s). It also lasts a minute per level.

(Note: "Whether or not the save is successful, a creature cannot be the target of <Slumber> again for 1 day.")

Taking that into account...

Eight ways to counter this Witch

1. Will save. An evil cleric can play hell on a player that relies on a failed will save. Also, there's Iron Will.

2. "Wake up, Joe!" Others can rouse the afflicted with a standard action. After that, he's immune to Slumber for 1 day (the roused, that is, not the rouser).

3. Non-living/mindless. Constructs. Undead. Vermin. Ooze. While throwing nothing but these creature types stinks of DM-goobering, an occasional mindless creature in the mix can allow the player to use his other strategies.

4. "Number appearing: 5d6+3" As suggested above, Slumber affects 1 creature per turn. It's not that effective when you've got a mob.

5. Reeeegeneration! Getting your head lopped off doesn't mean as much if you can just grow it back (remember that you can only be target of Slumber once per day?).

6. HP, HP, HP. If the coup de grace doesn't kill the guy, then the fight's not over. A sword in your kidney wakes you up (remember that you can only be target of Slumber once per day?). This has the benefit of letting the Witch feel like he's contributed greatly to the fight without having him actually *end* the fight. Keep in mind that you'll probably need a monster Fort save (10 + damage dealt) for this one. I hope no one brought a scythe.

7. Elves. Sometimes you fight elves. It happens.

Last, but certainly not least...

8. Plan ahead. It's not the end of the world for the guy to end an *important encounter* right away every now and again. It makes the character feel powerful and important. Just have a backup villain or story leg ready (but not in such away to trivialize his victory). Whether it's the next step of your plot showing up a bit early, or pulling out the phrase "two weeks later..." in the middle of a game, just be ready to keep the story rolling.

[beforemath]

Are the Monk and Magus players still having fun?

If so, no need to do anything quite yet...







I really don't recommend [passive-aggressively countering the Witch/Inquisitor exclusively], tends to be an IRL Drama game killer.

You make two very fine points. That's probably the most elegant way of handling the situation, indeed.

[Ryulin18]

With all this help, I think I can handle the situation now. I've had to brush up on all the rules he is using. I've also familiarised myself with the downfalls and made plans to carefully lessen his power is some fights.

It's true that you guys are absolutely amazing. Thanks GITP members.