[PF] Sorcerers: useless at level 1-3?

[Von Zinzer]

Playground, this is my first time playing a caster, and first time with PF after years of 3.5. So am I wrong when I say that my 2nd level sorc is just a waste of space? I mean, is that the idea? I rolled *boss* stats, so that's fine, but I'm basically a one-trick pony. I guess that's how it's supposed to be? </rant> </whining>

Can't give a full stat block since the DM keeps our sheets between sessions, but can tell you that I have:

Race: fetchling
Bloodline: Shadow w/ Umbral wildblooded variant
Feat: toughness
Spells:
Colour spray
Memory lapse

To be fair, I've straight-up ended two fights with one colour spray, and saved our asses once (out of combat) with memory lapse, but I can't help but feel helpless when the **** hits the fan and it's a sightless or otherwise immune to colour spray enemy.

I've read both Treantmonk's wizard guide and A Minstrel's sorcerer guide, and still feel lost. Any advice you can offer would be greatly appreciated.

[nedz]

My favourite starting spells are Colour Spray + Silent Image.

There will be, quite a few, times when there is nothing you can do. With reasonable spell selection this will stop happening around 5th-7th.

[watchwood]

Picking your battles is just part of life as a low level spellcaster. That said, the infinite use cantrips that Pathfinder has can help a *lot*. Acid Splash should probably be on your spell list.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Useless, No.

One-Trick-Pony, Yes, well 2 tricks actually.

But at this level most characters are; whether that trick is an encounter ending spell, melee damage, ranged damage or tripping. The only real exceptions are CoDzilla or an Artificer with lots of of scrolls.

[BobVosh]

All arcane casters, until level 5ish, tend to be "I can do this," or "I got nothing that can help." It is a very binary system until the mid levels.

[Starbuck_II]

Playground, this is my first time playing a caster, and first time with PF after years of 3.5. So am I wrong when I say that my 2nd level sorc is just a waste of space? I mean, is that the idea? I rolled *boss* stats, so that's fine, but I'm basically a one-trick pony. I guess that's how it's supposed to be? </rant> </whining>

Can't give a full stat block since the DM keeps our sheets between sessions, but can tell you that I have:

Race: fetchling
Bloodline: Shadow w/ Umbral wildblooded variant
Feat: toughness
Spells:
Colour spray
Memory lapse

To be fair, I've straight-up ended two fights with one colour spray, and saved our asses once (out of combat) with memory lapse, but I can't help but feel helpless when the **** hits the fan and it's a sightless or otherwise immune to colour spray enemy.

I've read both Treantmonk's wizard guide and A Minstrel's sorcerer guide, and still feel lost. Any advice you can offer would be greatly appreciated.

It is partly your spell choices.

You chose will save only spells? Anyone immune to the spell like immune like mindless/sightless is fine.

You need to diversify.
Try to have a Fort, Will, and Reflex.
Luckily you have at will cantrips so use acid splash, daze, etc.

[Belril Duskwalk]

My favourite starting spells are Colour Spray + Silent Image.

There will be, quite a few, times when there is nothing you can do. With reasonable spell selection this will stop happening around 5th-7th.

I find this is often the truth of sorcerers. Sometimes, the spells you have just aren't going to match the situation you are in. With careful spell selection this will happen less and less as you level up until you have enough spells known where you can cover most situations you get into. The right bloodline Arcana/Powers can also help fill holes in early levels. In the case of Umbral bloodline, the hole you can fill is 'we need to be harder to find.'

Cantrips also help. None of them are staggeringly useful, but they can be used endlessly so at least you'll never have nothing to cast.

Color Spray has it's limitations (it's mind-affecting, the target needs to be sighted) but outside those limitations, at low levels, the spell is almost unmatched for its ability to simply end fights. So, yes in combat you may be a bit of a one trick pony at first, but at least your one trick is a really good one.

[nedz]

Yes, Arcanists really need 3rd level spells to flower.

At Sorcerer 7 you will have two of those, which should allow you to fill the holes. Beyond this point however, with good spell picks, you should be golden.

[Silentone98]

bit surprised at your selection actually... I try to balance my own selection between 'gamble' spells and more direct spells. Keep my options open, so to speak.

I cant see either of your spells operating in that capacity.
Most people pick magic missle as a staple, just because its a no save, no miss, no hassle spell. Sure its low damage, but it doesn't loss its usefullness. Now that is just an example,.. im sure there are better spells out there for that, but I would never start my spell list with spells that are only good under the correct situations.

using the above example,
magic missle
memory laspe

because if you have an ally, color spray hurts more than it helps :(

Now this is only my own preference, I am sure there are better ways to go about it.

EDIT: Carry a crossbow or longspear? at low lvl's, the BAB difference is minor, only strength makes a noticable difference early on.

[Spuddles]

Human with APG human alternate favored class bonus is stupendous- extra spell known every level.

[Eldariel]

Crossbow is all you need to be a relevant ranged attacker if you have a decent Dexterity. On level 2-3 you can use Alchemist's Fires for significantly higher damage touch attacks. Don't bother with damage spells like Shocking Grasp or Magic Missile; they need caster level before they're worth the spell slot and action.

My first spells to learn as a Sorc would be:
Color Spray
Grease

Tons of utility, useful against almost any opponent. Daze and Detect Magic complement this. Remember, you can also use scrolls; level 1 scrolls of spells like Magic Weapon or Silent Image are only 25gp and can save party's ass vs. incorporeals.

But yeah, I'd aim for:
Color Spray
Grease
Silent Image
Mage Armor

Early on. That kinda covers most of your bases. Sleep's nice too but kinda redundant with Color Spray and pesky elves are immune. Charm Person, True Strike and Magic Missile are nice "eventual" level 1 spells but they aren't that important on the actual level 1.

Basically, you're like a Wizard except less versatile.

[Spuddles]

crossbows & grenade weapons do poorly wrt melee

[Eldariel]

crossbows & grenade weapons do poorly wrt melee

Luckily 5' steps and Acrobatics mean you almost never need to engage in melee.

[Blyte]

Human with APG human alternate favored class bonus is stupendous- extra spell known every level.

I agree, but in levels 1-3 it's only an extra 0 level spell known per level. Which can be nifty, but I'd opt for more HP personally, till level 4.

Anyhow, sorcerers are far from useless from creation on. There are a few strong to over powered builds, you can enjoy from the jump. Some combos in race/archetype aren't as strong, and that's where spell selection and knowing when to let the tank do his job, comes into play.

Any class that can potentially have an animal companion, familiar, and have 6 auto-slag magic missiles doing 3d4+6 damage at level one gets no pitty from me. In fact, I have yet to find a class with such powerful low level potential yet.

[Spuddles]

Luckily 5' steps and Acrobatics mean you almost never need to engage in melee.

I meant you get -4 for shooting into melee, and your allies won't be your allies for long if you keep splashing them with fire.

[Eldariel]

Not what I meant. You get -4 for shooting into melee, and your allies won't be your allies for long if you keep splashing them with fire.

Mhm, it's true that it's harder to affect people already in melee. In some parties you can have the melee 5' step back after their attack and ready an action to take the shot in that period; it doesn't really influence their ability to attack negatively before they have iteratives after all, so better abuse the **** outta the ability to move and full attack while you still can.

Other than that, well, there are often targets who are not in melee combat. And if not, yeah, you'll have a poor chance at hitting but c'est la vie. It's really just a filler action, so it's not the end of the world if you're not hitting.

[nedz]

I'm not a huge fan of Magic Missile, but I would generally take it as my last 1st level spell known. You would do better with a sling or crossbow in the beginning.

Colour Spray lasts longer than Sleep, which you would have to swap out long after it had ceased to be useful. Colour Spray can be useful even at higher levels.

Mage Armour is also questionable, except on a gish.

[Eldariel]

I'm not a huge fan of Magic Missile, but I would generally take it as my last 1st level spell known. You would do better with a sling or crossbow in the beginning.

Colour Spray lasts longer than Sleep, which you would have to swap out long after it had ceased to be useful. Colour Spray can be useful even at higher levels.

Mage Armour is also questionable, except on a gish.

Once you get 3-4 Missiles, Magic Missile becomes a fairly decent backup spell for when nothing else works but 1 Missile just generally isnt' worth a 1st level slot on low levels.

[Mystral]

Enlarge Person is a good spell for a low level Sorcerer, too. It's a great buff with many purposes and usefull even at CL 1.

[limejuicepowder]

The other option is to take some buffing spells. I've only played PF once, but my fey bloodline sorc w/ entangle, sleep, and enlarge person always had something to do - even if it was only cast enlarge person on the barb and fighter then literally sit down on the battle field and watch them cut our enemies to ribbons.

Here's the thing about spellcasters: unless you want to blast, get used to casting only 1 or 2 spells per combat. A properly chosen spell is pretty much a combat ender, either by disabling the enemy or putting your allies in a position to snot-knock 'em.

[Snowbluff]

Pretty much if you are a level 1 Sorcerer... my advice is to take toppling spell, and the Magical Lineage Trait. Extra points, take the spell hunter trait as well to drop Toppling Magic Missile to a cantrip.

Low levels suck for everyone. Paladins get Smite 1/day, for +1 damage, with their 14ish Cha, it sucks.

[Eldariel]

Pretty much if you are a level 1 Sorcerer... my advice is to take toppling spell, and the Magical Lineage Trait. Extra points, take the spell hunter trait as well to drop Toppling Magic Missile to a cantrip.

Low levels suck for everyone. Paladins get Smite 1/day, for +1 damage, with their 14ish Cha, it sucks.

Well, Barbarians aren't horribly off. They still get to Rage for 4+Con rounds on level 1, which tends to get them to a decent start if nothing else.

[limejuicepowder]

Well, Barbarians aren't horribly off. They still get to Rage for 4+Con rounds on level 1, which tends to get them to a decent start if nothing else.

Barbarians probably are one of the best 1st level classes ('sides ToB), but it's not by much. Rage makes them death machines but only 1/day, and even with a d12 they aren't above one good crit ending their adventuring career quickly.

Combat reflexes and a reach weapon will go a long way towards safety at those levels, and that's far from exclusive to anyone. Ranged is still a problem.

When yah get down do it, most the classes are pretty even at low level - fragile and a reliance on RNG.

[Eldariel]

Barbarians probably are one of the best 1st level classes ('sides ToB), but it's not by much. Rage makes them death machines but only 1/day, and even with a d12 they aren't above one good crit ending their adventuring career quickly.

Well, PF Barbs have Rage Rounds instead of Rage/Day; they can rage for 4+Con rounds per day so it's possible that can cover a couple of encounters. On the flipside, they can't match a 3.5 Barb with Extra Rage for endurance.

[Von Zinzer]

Thanks for the help, all!

I have a question, though: what's with all the love for Silent Image? Am I just unimaginative in seeing its uses?

[StreamOfTheSky]

Silent Image requires creativity, the right circumstances, and a DM whose views of how figments work doesn't make the ability worthless ("oh, they're looking at it. that counts as interacting!" *rolls will save*).

In the right circumstances, it can be amazing, though. Basically the trick is to use it in ways where the enemy will *not* interact with it, or in order to do so, they have to move a far distance and waste actions to do so. Think things like a (barbed/spiked, etc...) fake wall that the enemy may just take at face value as a real wall and attempt to move around instead of climb or break through. Or "summoning" allies off in the distance either to get enemies to pursue or to appear more powerful than you really are. Or tons of other options, I'm really not the best at thinking of uses for it, myself. My friends have also used the fact that for those yet to interact and save against it the image is opaque while as those who have (your allies) can see through it as a translucent image to good effect for some temporary cover.

In any case, I don't think Silent Image is that great to start with, I'd go with color spray and grease (which lasts min/level in PF) myself.

[Anderlith]

You have proficiency in Crossbow. Use it.

[nedz]

I have a question, though: what's with all the love for Silent Image?
Flexibility.

Am I just unimaginative in seeing its uses?
Yes — though if you are unimaginative it is useless.

[Snowbluff]

Thanks for the help, all!

I have a question, though: what's with all the love for Silent Image? Am I just unimaginative in seeing its uses?

Well...
When you jump across a chasm, leave a 'bridge' for them.

When they get sick of falling to their deaths, and start checking the 'bridge', move the edge of the chasm up a little. They go to check the bridge, but the ground before is actually a fatal fall.

[ericgrau]

Nah wizards only have 1 more spell and only at first. Plus once they use one it's gone and the second thing they fight better be targettable by what little is left. I'd do something like color spray + burning hands, or color spray + magic missile to handle most fights. Or sleep instead of color spray. Burning hands is better than magic missile at level 1 especially once you hit 2 or more adjacent foes, but the problem is then you have to swap out two spells later instead one. There are other level 1 options too as suggested but the key is to make your first 2 both combat spells that work on different types of foes. In general picking spells that are frequently useful in general, and yet powerful, and yet differ to cover eachother's holes is a good idea at any level. Have a strong answer to as many situations as possible.

And for cantrips don't forget daze is bad but it's better than a crossbow. You can pull other at-will cantrip tricks too like resistance spamming to make sure someone always has a +1 to saves.

A barbarian 1 shotting foes with a greatsword with no save is still better, but you can more than manage for the first 3 levels. Then level 4 hits and things get nice. Then level 6 hits and things get really nice.

[Endarire]

Talk with your GM on what you can do with silent image. Use it to 'summon' an iron golem from level 1. Or a dragon. Or something nasty. Use it to reproduce mirror image on every party member with 5 images that renew every time one is hit. Or just displacement. Whatever.

[icefractal]

I feel like damaging spells are pretty "meh" at low levels. Compared to normal attacks and alchemical items on the one hand, and stuff like Color Spray, Enlarge Person, or Silent Image on the other, they're just not worth the very limited resource - unless you have an all-Wizard party or something.

If you're going for combat power, it's hard to beat:
Color Spray, Enlarge Person - assuming you have a strength-based warrior-type in your party.

Silent Image is also a solid choice, and can be gold if the GM is on the same page regarding how it works. As a Wizard, I would take it with no hesitation. As a Sorcerer, you have to consider whether you'd rather get Minor Image, as having both is a little redundant and sound makes many tricks easier.

That said, it's not all about combat. You mention that Memory Lapse has saved you on a couple occasions, so I'd say it's pulling its weight. Of course, if you're going to cast a spell on them anyway, why not Charm Person? Should be equally effective on anything but the worst gaffes, and will solve many situations outright (if it works).

[TuggyNE]

Use it to reproduce mirror image on every party member with 5 images that renew every time one is hit. Or just displacement. Whatever.

It's a figment, not a glamer, so those pseudo-displacement won't work. (Replicating mirror image might, but only if you can concentrate enough to replenish them continually, which is dubious and eats all your standard actions.)

[Gnaeus]

I like Stumble Gap (since its pf). It is a trip effect + damage + debuff if they save. Also, don't forget intimidate. It is better than a cantrip for an at will low level debuff.

[TheTick]

Your bloodline powers might help with the early level issues too. Aberrant gives you an acidic ray to use at least 5 or 6 times a day, depending on your CHA score. Draconic gives you a pair of claws, good if you didn't dump strength, for a similar number of rounds. Elemental Ray, same deal. There are others that have benefits like that, too. It's not an at-will power like a cantrip, but it gives you some cushion before you go into Acid Splash/Ray of Frost/crossbow territory.

[nedz]

Talk with your GM on what you can do with silent image. Use it to 'summon' an iron golem from level 1. Or a dragon. Or something nasty. Use it to reproduce mirror image on every party member with 5 images that renew every time one is hit. Or just displacement. Whatever.

The Iron Golem/Dragon should work as a distraction. The other two examples should not work.

You can use Silent Image to block line of sight or to distract people or to trick them. How you use it is very situational.

It does depend upon how the DM views illusions, and on how imaginative the player is. It is however the only level 1 spell which allows you to, apparently, break the laws of physics.

[ericgrau]

I feel like damaging spells are pretty "meh" at low levels. Compared to normal attacks and alchemical items on the one hand, and stuff like Color Spray, Enlarge Person, or Silent Image on the other, they're just not worth the very limited resource - unless you have an all-Wizard party or something.
His primary spell should be something like sleep or color spray not damage. The issues he is having relate to backup spells. At level 1 almost nothing is resistant to any kind of damage. Shocking grasp is pretty bad but hitting 2 foes with a burning hands adds up to a respectable amount of damage. Magic missile is likewise bad now, but it's a handy backup spell later and at any level it is the king of reliability. With -2 AC enlarge person buffs enemy damage almost as much as it buffs your ally's damage, at a level when even the heavy melee can and will die quickly. Overall it's slightly better than break even. It is a horrendously bad waste of your turn, and in PF this applies even to grapplers. Silent image is nice but very hard to pull off effectively for a lot of players. The ongoing pile of silent image suggestions in this thread could help the OP out if he takes notes. Even then a single save may negate it, so the OP really needs to make sure to pick illusions that distract more than 1 foe to make it more worthwhile than simply removing half that foe's hp instead. Grease is a so-so debuff he might try too; it lasts longer in PF so it's viable levels 1-3 but it no longer makes foes flat-footed unless they move. The thing is there simply aren't that many good level 1 backup options in PF. So his best choice for a backup is probably damage or maybe extraordinarily well made illusions if he can pull it off.