Highly Optimized Campaign, Need Advice

[Sugashane]

My next campaign is going to be filled with various famous broken builds, and I am going to be the Diplomancer. But we are starting out at level 5, and I have the build set until level 5. But after that there is little more I would need to do to advance my Diplomacy. So I am going to make another facet to the build, but need some fresh perspectives on what to do.

Here is the layout- Class-level-Why
Bard 1 (Races of Destiny variant)- Allows for bardic music to be replaced with Soothing Voice, a calm emotions using Diplomacy (vs. Will Save)
Bard 1/ Marshal 1- Skill Focus Diplomacy and Motivate Charisma (doubles CHA mod on CHA checks)
Bard 1/Marshal 1/Binder 1- Bind to Naberius (Disguise self at will, take 10 on Diplomacy even when threatened, and do so in a one round with no penalty)
Bard 1/ Marshal 1/Binder 1/ Warlock 1- Invocation of Beguiling Influence (+6 to Diplomacy for 24 hours)
Bard 1/ Marshal 1/ Binder 1/ Warlock 1/Dragonfire Adept 1 (Another Beguiling Influence)

By my count and and using an Item Familiar I can get a Diplomacy check of over +60, and take 10. Rushing this check will also have no penalty.

I might want to drop Warlock or Dragonfire Adept, as I don't know if the two Beguiling Influences would stack. Would they?

I could start with Rogue, and take the Able Learner feat to become an amazing skill monkey.

I could just remain straight Warlock and would make decent damage as the Eldritch Blast grows in strength. I actually would be able to take the 3 levels of Hellfire Warlock from the Fiendish Codex II, which would allow for an additional 6d6 to be added to every blast. Though I do not see a set amount of times per day it can be used, and it seems to be a standard action. Does that mean it is able to be used as many times as the BAB allows? And are you only able to have one invocation in effect at the same time? I would love to have the Eldritch Spear with multiple attacks (as with a bow). Being able to use the feat Battle Caster also makes this an appealing build, as just one use would allow zero percent arcane spell failure in any medium armor.

Any thoughts on the possible builds? Much appreciated.

[Pandyman]

The normal path to overtly increase damage using Eldritch/hellfire blast is to use Eldritch Glaive invocation from Dragon Magic to allow you to make a full attack with eldritch blast as a reach weapon, otherwise you can normally only use eldritch/hellfire blast once during your standard action. After taking eldritch glaive there is no actual size limit imposed by the weapon created by the evocation, which can be nifty in many cases.

Of course, this might be enough to make a lot of people wet in their pants, but why settle for such low damage? Goad your DM to let you get a legacy item for your diplomacy, lol. Then go Legacy champion, which will give you "+1 level of existing class features" for 8/10 levels. Use this to gain +2d6 per level added onto your hellfire blast. If you can manage to take all 10 levels of legacy champion you'll gain +22d6 damage from your hellfire blast (6d6 from Hellfire Warlock and 16d6 from legacy champion). Take a full attack with your hellfire/eldritch glaive to do somewhere between +88d6s and +110d6s worth of hellfire damage on top of any damage done by the eldritch energy.

You can always take the spell-like-ability feats in monster manual to empower/maximize your eldritch/hellfire blasts too.

Books used for this basic idea: Monster Manual for feat mentions, Weapons of Legacy for legacy champion, Dragon Magic for eldritch glaive, Complete Arcane for Warlock(obviously), and Fiendish Codex 2 for Hellfire Warlock(obviously).

Of course, any semblance of this build can be a decent close/high range melee depending on how you interpret Eldritch Glaive. Legacy Champion is also very dependent on how OP your DM wants you to be.

Edit: Finally found what i wanted to reference. Normally reach of a creature is dependent on the creature's size. However, if you go to Savage species you can use this little helpful bit when determining the size you want your eldritch glaive to be.


Size and Reach: For each size increase of a reach weapon, increase its reach by 5 ft. A Huge guisarme has a reach of 15 feet (insead of 10 feet for the Large Version), for instance, while a Gargantuan guisarme has a reach of 20 feet. . . . Tiny creatures using small reach weapons can fight in melee as if they had 5 feet of reach, meaning they do not have to enter an opponent's area to attack.

This would wildly increase your range to threaten opponents, as well as make the eldritch weapon tiny and attack without the normal penalty of reach weapons. This rule is quoted from Savage Species.

Of course, the added combat ability will be nice on top of your diplomacy skills.

Edit 2: Just in case you haven't used this on your +60 Diplomacy check, here's a good bit from the item creation rules.

Skill bonus (competence) Bonus squared × 100 gp

Since the suggested combat requires very few magic items, if you spent all your gold on an item to give a competence bonus you could get a +80 to diplomacy from this single item(assuming that you meet the average level 20 gold on the DMG table.

If you go this route, you could use the defense bonus variant from Unearthed Arcana rather than buying armor. This would also allow you to wear elegant clothes all the time without wearing ugly armor too.

[LadyLexi]

Where do you get +60 in five levels?

I see +5 Cha mod, +5 from Martial, +12 from both Beguiling, +3 from focus and +8 from ranks. That's +33. Is there another +27 floating around in items on a lv 5 budget?

[prufock]

Where do you get +60 in five levels?

I see +5 Cha mod, +5 from Martial, +12 from both Beguiling, +3 from focus and +8 from ranks. That's +33. Is there another +27 floating around in items on a lv 5 budget?

Don't forget another +8 from Item Familiar (capped at your ranks in the skill). That brings it up to 41. Still shy of 60.

My personal take would be that Beguiling Influence doesn't stack. They're both invocations, they have the same name, it's just coming from a different class. Sort of like having a sorc and wiz cast the same spell with an untyped bonus, in my opinion.

[Sugashane]

Where do you get +60 in five levels?

I see +5 Cha mod, +5 from Martial, +12 from both Beguiling, +3 from focus and +8 from ranks. That's +33. Is there another +27 floating around in items on a lv 5 budget?

There are several things. I can take the Negotiator feat for +2, Masterwork Tools (Make up or cologne) +2, racial bonus for being half-elf is +2, +9 synergy (after Complimentary Insight feat) for bluff, intimidate and knowledge (royalty/nobility), skill focus (from Marshal) +3, +5 from friendly face spell (if I take another level of bard), and a ring (which was made for Diplomacy +20 and then turned to item familiar).

Page 285 of the DMG lists the price for ring creation as the skill bonus times 100. So the base price is 2000 if made from the signet ring, plus any XP cost. Well under the expected character wealth of 13,000gp for a 6th level PC. With this being an optimized game, this will be higher was well.

So there is
+8 ranks diplomacy
+20 ring of Diplomacy
+2 racial
+2 Masterwork Tool
+9 synergy
+3 Skill focus
+6 beguiling influence (or +12 if they stack)
+8 Item Familiar
+2 Negotiator
+1 Honest trait
+1 Polite trait
Total +62 (+68 if the two Beguiling influences stack)
Taking 10 guarantees a +72 (or +78 with the stack)

There are other ways to get small bonuses such as Silvertongue mask from the Incarnate class, Sacred Vow feat, +2 Evangelist cleric level, +5 Friendly Face item, +4 Wednesday's Left Eye, +2 from Herald domain, +2 from Mind domain, etc, but I want to still provide a character with more than one fact later in the game.

[Pandyman]

Where do you get +60 in five levels?

I see +5 Cha mod, +5 from Martial, +12 from both Beguiling, +3 from focus and +8 from ranks. That's +33. Is there another +27 floating around in items on a lv 5 budget?

On top of the +8 from item familiar, an item with a +9 competence bonus to diplomacy can be bought with the lvl 5 starter gold using the custom creation rules for magic items, 5 ranks in Bluff (+2 synergy bonus), 5 ranks in Sense Motive (+2 synergy bonus), and 5 ranks of Knowledge (nobility) (+2 synergy bonus) gives us a difference of 4. Hmm, I can't think of anything else off the top of my head, except maybe a racial bonus.

EDIT: Super ninjad, except with more stuff.

[Sugashane]

Pandyman- Wow, I love those ideas. LOL. I will definitely talk to him to see if I can get that, and I forgot all about the MM feats!

For full attack would I get the attacks as with BAB? Would this be able to be used for ranged blasts or only melee?


Prufrock- That was what I was under the assumption of, but I have not really messed with auras in previous builds.

Thank you very much guys.

[Pandyman]

Pandyman- Wow, I love those ideas. LOL. I will definitely talk to him to see if I can get that, and I forgot all about the MM feats!

For full attack would I get the attacks as with BAB? Would this be able to be used for ranged blasts or only melee?

You would get the attacks as per your BAB for melee. You could definitely shoot these as blasts, but then you would be reduced from 100ishd6s to 20ishd6s.

If you don't mind the melee though, you can effectively threaten foes 25 ft away with a gargantuan eldritch glaive, so combat reflexes is a relevant feat and so is cleave, improved trip, and weapon finesse(debatable since the weapon is weightless energy). Ever seen a guy tripped with pure eldritch energy? Well, it's definitely possible. On top of massive damage, you can easily pull off a regular melee trip build if you really wanted.

EDIT: Max would be 30 feet at colossal if you don't use colossal+ or 3rd party size categories after colossal.

[Shazek]

There are several things. I can take the Negotiator feat for +2, Masterwork Tools (Make up or cologne) +2, racial bonus for being half-elf is +2, +9 synergy (after Complimentary Insight feat) for bluff, intimidate and knowledge (royalty/nobility), skill focus (from Marshal) +3, +5 from friendly face spell (if I take another level of bard), and a ring (which was made for Diplomacy +20 and then turned to item familiar).

Page 285 of the DMG lists the price for ring creation as the skill bonus times 100. So the base price is 2000 if made from the signet ring, plus any XP cost. Well under the expected character wealth of 13,000gp for a 6th level PC. With this being an optimized game, this will be higher was well.

So there is
+8 ranks diplomacy
+20 ring of Diplomacy
+2 racial
+2 Masterwork Tool
+9 synergy
+3 Skill focus
+6 beguiling influence (or +12 if they stack)
+8 Item Familiar
+2 Negotiator
+1 Honest trait
+1 Polite trait
Total +62 (+68 if the two Beguiling influences stack)
Taking 10 guarantees a +72 (or +78 with the stack)

There are other ways to get small bonuses such as Silvertongue mask from the Incarnate class, Sacred Vow feat, +2 Evangelist cleric level, +5 Friendly Face item, +4 Wednesday's Left Eye, +2 from Herald domain, +2 from Mind domain, etc, but I want to still provide a character with more than one fact later in the game.

Sorry, but you're wrong on the item pricing. The cost is not 100 times the skill bonus, it's 100 times the skill bonus squared. 20^2 is 400, so your ring costs 40000, not 2000.

[Sugashane]

Sorry, but you're wrong on the item pricing. The cost is not 100 times the skill bonus, it's 100 times the skill bonus squared. 20^2 is 400, so your ring costs 40000, not 2000.

Ah. Thank you for the correction. I will reread it more thoroughly.

Still, the Item Familiar only needs to be 2000gp, and can be improved upon, advanced bit by bit. So if made it a +5 bonus to start with, it would cost 2500gp. Still would come to a guaranteed check of 57 if I take 10, which is more than enough for all but a few elite NPCs.


Pandyman- Hellfire Warlock has even more synergy than I anticipated with my build. The Hellfire Shield drains CON by 1 point every use, and being bound to Naberius allows faster ability healing: "Heal 1 point in each damaged ability score every round, and 1 point in all drained ability scores every hour." How perfect is that??

Now would I have to choose just one class to have the Legacy Champion advance? Or would I choose before I took the level? I would obviously choose to do Hellfire Warlock for 10 levels (8 advancements in damage) but it is unlikely I will be allowed to do so as it is a three level class. I can see a few ways advancing in Bard could be very beneficial, but I would only want a level or two of Bard, and most on Hellfire Warlock (or Warlock if my DM's logic doesn't allow that. LOL)

Thanks again for all the advice and critiques guys. I will post the write up tomorrow of my progression.

[Endarire]

+50ish Diplomacy just seems like overkill if your GM is using standard Diplomacy rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/diplomacy.htm). A 'mere' result of 50 turns a hostile creature into your bestest friend. You'd only need more if you want to turn 'em from hostile into your fanatics (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#diplomacy). (Otherwise, you can just spend 2 rounds turning them from anything into your fanatics.)

[Pandyman]

Now would I have to choose just one class to have the Legacy Champion advance? Or would I choose before I took the level? I would obviously choose to do Hellfire Warlock for 10 levels (8 advancements in damage) but it is unlikely I will be allowed to do so as it is a three level class. I can see a few ways advancing in Bard could be very beneficial, but I would only want a level or two of Bard, and most on Hellfire Warlock (or Warlock if my DM's logic doesn't allow that. LOL)

There is no such rule against advancing hellfire warlock for all 10 levels. It's just the highest optimal choice for the class; and, of course, you can take fewer levels to deal less damage.


If you had more than one class before becoming a legacy champion, you must decide to which class to add each level for the purpose of determining class abilities.

You can change your choice each level. If you choose any class other than hellfire warlock though, it would simply be better to take levels in a completely different prestige class than legacy champion if you decide to do it that way.

Edit: Endarire, that's why the standard diplomancer is considered high optimization, because the actual rules for 3.5 diplomacy are broken. It is the easiest way to just make it so a combat never happens at all.

[Sugashane]

The Diplomatic Warlock
{table=head]Level|Class|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Skills|Feats|Class Features

1st|Bard 1|
+0|
+0|
+2|
+2|Skills|Complementary Insights|Soothing Voice

2nd|Bard 1/Marshal 1|
+0|
+2|
+2|
+4|Skills|New Feats|Motivate Charisma

3rd|Bard 1/ Marshal 1/ Binder 1|
+0|
+4|
+2|
+6|Skills|Item Familiar|Bind to Naberius (Faster Ability Healing, Disguise Self, Persuasive Words, Silver Tongue

4th|Bard 1/ Marshal 1/ Binder 1/ Warlock 1|
+0|
+4|
+2|
+8|Skills|New Feats|Eldritch Blast 1d6, Beguiling Influence

5th|Bard 1/ Marshal 1/ Binder 1/ Warlock 2|
+1|
+4|
+2|
+9|Skills|New Feats|Detect magic

6th|Bard 1/ Marshal 1/ Binder 1/ Warlock 3|
+2|
+5|
+3|
+9|Skills|Battle Caster (Medium)|DR 1/cold iron, Eldritch blast 2d6

7th|Bard 1/ Marshal 1/ Binder 1/ Warlock 4|
+3|
+5|
+3|
+10|Skills|New Feats|Deceive Item

8th|Bard 1/ Marshal 1/ Binder 1/ Warlock 5|
+3|
+5|
+3|
+10|Skills|New Feats|Eldritch blast 3d6

9th|Bard 1/ Marshal 1/ Binder 1/ Warlock 6|
+4|
+6|
+4|
+11|Skills|Least Legacy feat|New invocation (Least or lesser)

10th|Bard 1/ Marshal 1/ Binder 1/ Warlock 6/ Hellfire Warlock 1|
+4|
+6|
+4|
+13|Skills|New Feats|Hellfire blast +2d6 (Total 5d6)

11th|Bard 1/ Marshal 1/ Binder 1/ Warlock 6/ Hellfire Warlock 1/ Legacy Champion 1|
+4|
+6|
+4|
+15|Skills|New Feats| Reduced ritual cost (lesser), Bond of lore

12th|Bard 1/ Marshal 1/ Binder 1/ Warlock 6/ Hellfire Warlock 1/ Legacy Champion 2 (Hellfire prog. 1)|
+5|
+6|
+4|
+16|Skills|Battle Caster (Heavy)|replace legacy ability (least), Hellfire blast +4d6 (Total 7d6)

13th|Bard 1/ Marshal 1/ Binder 1/ Warlock 6/ Hellfire Warlock 1/ Legacy Champion 3 (Hellfire prog. 2)|
+6|
+7|
+6|
+17|Skills|New Feats|Extra legacy ability use (least), Hellfire blast +6d6 (Total 9d6)

14th|Bard 1/ Marshal 1/ Binder 1/ Warlock 6/ Hellfire Warlock 1/ Legacy Champion 4 (Hellfire prog. 2, Warlock prog. 1)|
+7|
+7|
+6|
+18|Skills|New Feats|Bonus legacy feat, DR 2/ cold iron, Eldritch blast 4d6 (Total 10d6)

15th|Bard 1/ Marshal 1/ Binder 1/ Warlock 6/ Hellfire Warlock 1/ Legacy Champion 5 (Hellfire prog. 2, Warlock prog. 2)|
+7|
+7|
+6|
+18|Skills|Quicken Spell-like Ability (Eldritch blast)|Replace legacy ability (lesser), fiendish resilience 1

16th|Bard 1/ Marshal 1/ Binder 1/ Warlock 6/ Hellfire Warlock 1/ Legacy Champion 6 (Hellfire prog. 2, Warlock prog. 3)|
+8|
+8|
+7|
+19|Skills|New Feats|Extra legacy ability use (lesser), Eldritch blast 5d6 (Total 11d6)

17th|Bard 1/ Marshal 1/ Binder 1/ Warlock 6/ Hellfire Warlock 1/ Legacy Champion 7 (Hellfire prog. 2, Warlock prog. 3)|
+9|
+8|
+7|
+19|Skills|New Feats|Reduced ritual cost (greater)

18th|Bard 1/ Marshal 1/ Binder 1/ Warlock 6/ Hellfire Warlock 1/ Legacy Champion 8 (Hellfire prog. 2, Warlock prog. 4)|
+10|
+8|
+7|
+20|Skills|Empower Spell-like Ability (Eldritch blast)|Bonus legacy feat, Energy resistance 5

19th|Bard 1/ Marshal 1/ Binder 1/ Warlock 6/ Hellfire Warlock 1/ Legacy Champion 9 (Hellfire prog. 2, Warlock prog. 5)|
+10|
+9|
+8|
+20|Skills|New Feats|Extra legacy ability use (greater), DR 3/cold iron, Eldritch blast 6d6 (Total 12d6), New invocation (least, lesser, or greater)

20th|Bard 1/ Marshal 1/ Binder 1/ Warlock 6/ Hellfire Warlock 1/ Legacy Champion 10 (Hellfire prog. 2, Warlock prog. 6)|
+11|
+9|
+8|
+21|Skills|New Feats|Replace legacy ability (greater), Imbue item[/table]

I saw that the example of the Hellfire Warlock on pg. 92 showed that the Warlock advanced in Eldritch blast and imbue item, but not the DR. Is that a mistake? It seems the DR should be 3/cold iron. And since I am using Legacy Champion (which advances existing invoking class) to advance Hellfire adept (which advances a previous existing invoking class), would I then advance both the Warlock and Hellfire Warlock's class abilities simultaneously?

I know the most impressive way to make this would be to use 10 levels of Legacy Champion to advance Hellfire Warlock as much as possible, but I am sure my DM will not allow that as it only shows 3 levels for Hellfire Warlock. If he does, then i will adjust accordingly.

Are there any mistakes you see or any ways to further optimize this build? We are able to use wishes for feats as long as we word it well. So this is not an issue if a feat is a great addition. Thanks again.

[Pandyman]

I saw that the example of the Hellfire Warlock on pg. 92 showed that the Warlock advanced in Eldritch blast and imbue item, but not the DR. Is that a mistake? It seems the DR should be 3/cold iron. And since I am using Legacy Champion (which advances existing invoking class) to advance Hellfire adept (which advances a previous existing invoking class), would I then advance both the Warlock and Hellfire Warlock's class abilities simultaneously?

That is not a mistake, it's the sacrifice for higher damage. Legacy champion would increase hellfire damage, eldritch damage, and imbue item since those things would normally be advanced through Hellfire Warlock.


I know the most impressive way to make this would be to use 10 levels of Legacy Champion to advance Hellfire Warlock as much as possible, but I am sure my DM will not allow that as it only shows 3 levels for Hellfire Warlock. If he does, then i will adjust accordingly.

Legacy Champion doesn't level the class before it, only the features and effective level of the class before it, which is why it doesn't matter if you get dedicate all 8 advancements to Hellfire Warlock. That is almost the only real useful function of Legacy Champion. If you only want to advance Hellfire Warlock 3 levels, then just take Hellfire Warlock for those 3 levels and get rid of Legacy Champion entirely. Using Legacy Champion to advance Warlock is suboptimal, and I definitely wouldn't suggest it in a high optimization campaign.

As a result, my suggestion would be to rebuild entirely from 11-20, if this is indeed a high optimization. Bard 1/ Marshal 1/ Binder 1/ Warlock 6/Hellfire Warlock 3/Warlock 7(or warlock centered Prestige class)/Mindbender 1(can pick up anytime after level 6). As a whole this isn't really optimized, but it's better than Legacy Champion for the following reasons.

Gains from not taking Legacy Champion:
1. Telepathy at will and +6 competence to diplomacy from mind bender(Using Complete Arcane text warlock qualifies and gets invocations advanced in the first level.)
2. Fiendish Resilience 2
3. 3 invocations (this one by itself more than makes up for the small loss in saves and abilities)
4. No more dead levels from Legacy champion.
5. Fort Save increase- 11 rather than 9

Losses:
1. Saves reduction in Ref/Will- 7/19 rather than 8/21
2. Silly Legacy item abilities.

I'm also not a fan of battle caster. Depending on what kind of armor you plan on getting, arguing to use the defense bonus variant is much more useful and saves 2 feats. Defense bonus variant would allow a +9 AC bonus while unarmored. This variant is in Unearthed Arcana.

Also, when persuading the DM to allow Legacy Champion to progress Hellfire Warlock for all 8 boosts (mainly since that's how the class is supposed to work in the first place), you should really point out that cutting away at HP isn't really the most effective way to kill most things at higher level anyways. Not to mention that Warlock is Tier 4 starting off, so a good boost in constant damage would really be ideal in a high optimization group since big numbers are your niche in combat.

[Sugashane]

Ok. So at 20th level I'd be with a Bard 1/ Marshal 1/ Binder 1/ Warlock 6/ Hellfire Warlock 1/ Legacy Champion 10

*So this amounts to 16 levels of Warlock Eldritch blast (7d6), 10 Invocations, Imbue Items, etc.
*Effectively 8 levels of Hellfire Warlock damage progression (16d6), with the 3 levels of special class abilities
*The Diplomat cheese including an item familiar that could count as my legacy item and be increased as I gained power/resources.

If I am wrong please correct me, but that seems correct, and will be my build if it is so.

Thanks again Pandyman.

[Pandyman]

Effectively 8 levels of Hellfire Warlock damage progression (16d6) Technically you have 9 effective hellfire Warlock levels, 1 from hellfire warlock and 8 from Legacy Champion (18d6s). Since eldritch glaive counts as a 1st level spell like ability, using it can provoke an AoO. So concentration is nice (have at least 15 in this to automatically avoid Attacks of Opportunity when casting defensively), though you can use eldritch glaive from 30 ft away so you shouldn't be up in everyone's threatened squares anyway.

I would do, Bard 1/ Marshal 1/ Binder 1/ Warlock 6/ Hellfire Warlock 3/ Legacy Champion 8 unless you plan on using your legacy champion abilities. But yeah, either one would work. Also, greater chasuble of fell power will increase your damage by 2d6 per attack. If you use the magic item creation rules to make an item of divine power, you'll also gain 2 iterative attacks with eldritch glaive at lvl 20. This item would give you a net damage of 100d6s without the chasuble and 108d6s with the greater chasuble. The average damage of 100d6s is about 350, empower will make that 525 damage. Maximize will net 75 more points of damage on average at level 20, just to let you know.

Either one works fine, though both of them at the same time would allow 900 damage rather than 525-750. Quicken is good as is, because it can reduce eldritch glaive to a free action, and would allow you to move before making a full attack with your eldritch glaive. Its real awesome use is to use Eldritch Glaive as a free action then use Eldritch glaive again as a full round action. 200d6 is pretty nifty when maximized for 1200 damage(empowering both also will net a total of 1800 damage). Quicken is a controversial topic for eldritch glaive, but there's no reason that it shouldn't work in my opinion. Talk it over with your DM.

Strongheart Vest (Magic of Incarnum) reduces all ability damage you take by one and can be achieved with a feat. This would do better than Naberius when you make multiple uses of Hellfire in a turn, since Hellfire only ever does 1 damage to con. I fall on the side that says this isn't immunity to ability damage, since if you are targeted by 2 ability damage you still take 1 damage. This inherently should still qualify you for the Hellfire warlock, since the only thing that bars you from using hellfire blast is immunity to ability damage not effective damage resistance to ability damage. This is also controversial though, since some people say it makes you immune to the hellfire con damage, so ask your dm. (only use this if you really want.)

A ghost Bloodline (Unearthed Arcana) is also a good thing, since it can net you an extra 2d6s of Hellfire for each ghost bloodline level you take(max 3). They don't gain base attack, hit dice, but progress all level-based abilities. Bard 1/ Marshal 1/ Binder 1/ Warlock 6/ Hellfire Warlock 3/ Legacy Champion 6/ Ghost Levels 2 would be viable to increase by another 2d6 hellfire damage, but I wouldn't suggest it unless you can afford a magic item around the health loss.

Improved Critical can be used to increase your threat range... Normally, with crits included, your average damage each round will be around 376.5. 15% crit chance on 350 average damage effectively makes your average damage 402.5. This is nice, but very hard to fit into your build.

Warlock's Scepter from magic item compendium could be nice, that's all your decision though. Mobility items are also nice for when you can't quicken an eldritch glaive and you neeeeeeeeeed to move. Miss chance items are also fantastic. Items that let you pierce miss chance are also lovely choices.

The blast essences that debuff the opponent are also nice. Since you get 4 attacks(chances for them to fail their saves), you can effectively debuff and still deal the same amount of damage as you would without the essence. It's always nifty to add a condition to your attacks without altering the damage of the attacks. Noxious Blast (once they fail their fort save) makes an opponent nauseated for a minute, which makes it so they can't attack, cast spells, etc. Noxious blast is the best, in my opinion.

Most of the stuff here in this post is just options that you might consider, none of it is actually 100% necessary. (Other than the Concentration of at least 15.)

Also, so you know where I'm getting my eldritch glaive damage of 100d6s, this is what I'm doing.
If you hit, your target is affected as if struck by your eldritch blast (including any eldritch essence applied to the blast)... If your base attack bonus is +6 or higher, you can (as part of the full-round action) make as many attacks with your eldritch glaive as your base attack bonus allows. So, basically with an item of divine power, your base attack bonus becomes equal to your level. This means 4 attacks at the following +20/+15/+10/+5. The damage for each of these attacks is 25d6s(7d6s Eldritch Blast plus 18d6s Hellfire), which comes to a total of 100d6s. These attacks all target touch AC, so generally you have a higher chance to hit than a regular melee.

If you find yourself starving for more feats and have the spare gold, I would suggest getting scrolls or staffs of Embrace the Dark Chaos and Shun The Dark Chaos. These spells allow you to switch any feats that you might have with something else (you need to use both of them in that order though). Trade useless legacy feats for more profitable feats.

That's all I can think of at the moment. And no problem, lol, I love talking about Warlock.

[Sugashane]

Well, if you love talking about Warlocks...I wouldn't want to deprive you. :smallbiggrin:


Technically you have 9 effective hellfire Warlock levels, 1 from hellfire warlock and 8 from Legacy Champion (18d6s).

^Math fail on my part. I even edited my post to fix two errors. LOL



...you can use eldritch glaive from 30 ft away so you shouldn't be up in everyone's threatened squares anyway.

That again is due to the glaive being weightless, and being colossal sized in this instance, correct?


I would do, Bard 1/ Marshal 1/ Binder 1/ Warlock 6/ Hellfire Warlock 3/ Legacy Champion 8 unless you plan on using your legacy champion abilities.

The only reason I wanted to do the Legacy Champion earlier was because of the bump up in Hit Die and Skills per level. Especially if Legacy Champion would still give the same class abilities as Hellfire Warlock and Warlock at the same time. Is there a reason yours is superior, other than the Legacy Champion abilities being wasted?


Either one works fine, though both of them at the same time would allow 900 damage rather than 525-750. Quicken is good as is, because it can reduce eldritch glaive to a free action, and would allow you to move before making a full attack with your eldritch glaive. Its real awesome use is to use Eldritch Glaive as a free action then use Eldritch glaive again as a full round action. 200d6 is pretty nifty when maximized for 1200 damage(empowering both also will net a total of 1800 damage). Quicken is a controversial topic for eldritch glaive, but there's no reason that it shouldn't work in my opinion. Talk it over with your DM.

Quicken use to allow full attack as a free action. Never would have thought of that. I will argue for it for sure. LOL


Improved Critical can be used to increase your threat range... Normally, with crits included, your average damage each round will be around 376.5. 15% crit chance on 350 average damage effectively makes your average damage 402.5. This is nice, but very hard to fit into your build.

This would be a later feat to take though I assume. Quicken and empower would be taken before as they are much more frequently used?


The blast essences that debuff the opponent are also nice. Since you get 4 attacks(chances for them to fail their saves), you can effectively debuff and still deal the same amount of damage as you would without the essence. It's always nifty to add a condition to your attacks without altering the damage of the attacks.

This is because of using Quicken SLA or because the Divine Item raises my BBA to my level?



Most of the stuff here in this post is just options that you might consider, none of it is actually 100% necessary. (Other than the Concentration of at least 15.)

Part of the reason was going to try to go Legacy Champion earlier, I am very skill dependant in this build for my prestige classes and the Diplomat build at early levels.


Also, so you know where I'm getting my eldritch glaive damage of 100d6s, this is what I'm doing. So, basically with an item of divine power, your base attack bonus becomes equal to your level. This means 4 attacks at the following +20/+15/+10/+5. The damage for each of these attacks is 25d6s(7d6s Eldritch Blast plus 18d6s Hellfire), which comes to a total of 100d6s. These attacks all target touch AC, so generally you have a higher chance to hit than a regular melee.


Thank you for the breakdown. But what book is the divine item in? I will need to see how much they cost, how early I may be able to get one, etc. Would I be able to just add to my ring of diplomacy as it will be both my item familiar and legacy item? If so that would likely be the cheapest route with the imbue item ability.

Hellfire Warlock advances spellcasting for purposes of Eldritch Blast and Invocations.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=262785

Getting another level of Warlock means you are Warlock9/Binder1/HFW3. While you may have the Eldritch Blast and the invocations of a 12th level Warlock, you still only are Warlock 9, so you wouldn't get Imbue Item for another three levels.

Is that right? I see that Hellfire Warlock says "existing invoking class" while Legacy Champion says "existing class features." So would that mean only the invoking ability or would imbue item be something I wouldn't get until well into the epic area?

[Pandyman]

That again is due to the glaive being weightless, and being colossal sized in this instance, correct?
Yes, you choose the size of the eldritch glaive each turn. So, if you choose 30ft range, just remember you treat it as a reach weapon.



The only reason I wanted to do the Legacy Champion earlier was because of the bump up in Hit Die and Skills per level. Especially if Legacy Champion would still give the same class abilities as Hellfire Warlock and Warlock at the same time. Is there a reason yours is superior, other than the Legacy Champion abilities being wasted?
hellfire infusion, resistance to fire 10, hellfire shield mainly. But improved HP isn't a bad trade off.


Quicken use to allow full attack as a free action. Never would have thought of that. I will argue for it for sure. LOL
Well, since it's not actually considered a full attack but a full round spell-like ability and meets the prerequisites for quicken spell-like ability, i would argue in its favor vehemently.



This would be a later feat to take though I assume. Quicken and empower would be taken before as they are much more frequently used?
It's just another option, not really necessary. It doesn't net enough damage to be worth the fuss.



This is because of using Quicken SLA or because the Divine Item raises my BBA to my level?
Divine Power Item.
The below is for making custom items.

Use-activated or continuous Spell level × caster level × 2,000 gp
Divine Power (Spell level 4, Caster level 5 for an artificer)
Without any shenanigans, the lowest price possible is 40000g. Diplomacy use to get item for 10% with Complete Adventurer rules is too easy. 36000g would be an automatic for you when you take a 10.

"Fanatic -Will give life to serve you-Fight to the death against overwhelming odds, throw self in front of onrushing dragon."

If you got an item maker to this level with diplomacy, an expensive item for free would be an easy feat. Giving one's life in unreasonable situations> a small portion of their essence in a Magic item plus the raw mat cost.


Part of the reason was going to try to go Legacy Champion earlier, I am very skill dependant in this build for my prestige classes and the Diplomat build at early levels.
Like I said, either option is fine. I like being blasty over talky, though skills and hp are definitely a good reason to build this way.



Thank you for the breakdown. But what book is the divine item in? I will need to see how much they cost, how early I may be able to get one, etc. Would I be able to just add to my ring of diplomacy as it will be both my item familiar and legacy item? If so that would likely be the cheapest route with the imbue item ability.
SRD Custom magic item rules. I posted them in an earlier quote. If you put it on the same ring of Diplomacy, you would pay 150% the normal cost for the Divine Power Buff. (60k) One item with two magic effects is a bit more expensive than two items with a single magic effect.


Hellfire Warlock advances spellcasting for purposes of Eldritch Blast and Invocations.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=262785


Is that right? I see that Hellfire Warlock says "existing invoking class" while Legacy Champion says "existing class features." So would that mean only the invoking ability or would imbue item be something I wouldn't get until well into the epic area?

Hmm, this is true. I always just assumed because the stat block in Fiendish Codex 2 has imbue item with 9 levels of warlock and 3 levels of Hellfire Warlock. So, the Statblock doesn't match up with what the class itself says. Just focus on using diplomacy to get crafters/merchants to give you items for free then. Or you can pick up the leadership feat, and get your own personal cleric/artificer crafter. Then imbue item becomes much less of an issue.

[Sugashane]

[QUOTE]hellfire infusion, resistance to fire 10, hellfire shield mainly. But improved HP isn't a bad trade off.
Ah. I see. I thought I would still get those since Legacy Champion says "+1 level of existing class features." If I would not get those than i would take the 3 levels of Hellfire warlock before entering the Legacy Champion class.


Well, since it's not actually considered a full attack but a full round spell-like ability and meets the prerequisites for quicken spell-like ability, i would argue in its favor vehemently.

Well said. I doubt I will get any argument on this issue until I get add divine item to my Item familiar.



Divine Power Item.
The below is for making custom items.

Divine Power (Spell level 4, Caster level 5 for an artificer)
Without any shenanigans, the lowest price possible is 40000g. Diplomacy use to get item for 10% with Complete Adventurer rules is too easy. 36000g would be an automatic for you when you take a 10.

I was looking through my Deity books. :smallannoyed: Somehow the spell from PHB never even occurred to me.


"Fanatic -Will give life to serve you-Fight to the death against overwhelming odds, throw self in front of onrushing dragon."

If you got an item maker to this level with diplomacy, an expensive item for free would be an easy feat. Giving one's life in unreasonable situations> a small portion of their essence in a Magic item plus the raw mat cost.

This seems too easy. I love it. LOL. Plus I may be able to be a sposor for them, "speak of this's establishment's prestige in every realm I venture."


Like I said, either option is fine. I like being blasty over talky, though skills and hp are definitely a good reason to build this way.

My misunderstanding of the "existing class features" text. I didn't think i would be sacrificing those abilities, merely getting them along with the extra Hit Die and skills.


SRD Custom magic item rules. I posted them in an earlier quote. If you put it on the same ring of Diplomacy, you would pay 150% the normal cost for the Divine Power Buff. (60k) One item with two magic effects is a bit more expensive than two items with a single magic effect.

Here is what I found about Item Familiars though, which might make a slight difference.

SRD: Improving An Item Familiar

An item familiar can be improved as other magic items can be. By spending gold pieces (and time and experience points, assuming the character is the one doing the work), a character can add new abilities to his item familiar. If a character links himself to a +1 longsword, for example, it only costs 6,000 gp (or 3,000 gp and 240 XP) to add another +1 of enhancement bonus or, perhaps, a special ability that is equivalent to a +1 bonus (such as spell storing or flaming). The character can accomplish this even without having the requisite item creation feats.



Hmm, this is true. I always just assumed because the stat block in Fiendish Codex 2 has imbue item with 9 levels of warlock and 3 levels of Hellfire Warlock. So, the Statblock doesn't match up with what the class itself says. Just focus on using diplomacy to get crafters/merchants to give you items for free then. Or you can pick up the leadership feat, and get your own personal cleric/artificer crafter. Then imbue item becomes much less of an issue.

That is what I thought. I might just make the argument to my DM so can see if he will allow it. Or I will just talk my way to free/very cheap items.

I'm thinking long term this character's goal might to run a kingdom how he see's fit. Leadership + being able to speak to masses might equal being able to help overthrow a tyrant. So maybe Leadership will help to both get items and a small army. Then in politics, a silver tongue could never hurt. :smallbiggrin:

[TuggyNE]

Here is what I found about Item Familiars though, which might make a slight difference.

That doesn't change the normal pricing, though, only lets you improve the familiar without having the crafting feats. (I believe you still need to meet all other prerequisites, like spells available, in the usual ways.)

[Pandyman]

That doesn't change the normal pricing, though, only lets you improve the familiar without having the crafting feats. (I believe you still need to meet all other prerequisites, like spells available, in the usual ways.)

^ This is what I was gonna post.

+1 class features is very fickle, in my opinion. I'd argue against it mainly because it's a full combination of two classes(basically gestalt without actually being a gestalt character). I'm sure you could argue either way on it, that's just my opinion. The fact that it lists monk special abilities, and goes on to say "so on" you could definitely argue in that direction. I just wouldn't do it.

Also, if you get leadership, you can make a DMM Cleric that makes items and/or buffs you. Very easy way to get clericcy buffs without being a cleric. You could also use an artificer cohort to get any item you want within reason as well. When you're level 7 is when the artificer would be able to make the Divine Power Item at the cheapest cost (this makes you worry less about the cohort dying since the items are almost permanent. You get easy access to armor-like buffs as well without wasting feats for heavy armor use. Then if you ever get debuffed/dispelled/antimagicced you can just use the defense bonus variant. This saves money and helps the feat economy of this character.

[Sugashane]

Thanks guys. Well then I will go with your suggested build Pandyman. Hellfire Warlock 3 and then taking on Legacy Champion to advance damage. I'm pretty excited about the build. If I make it to epic I might take on arcane trickster to advance damage just a bit further, but that is a while away.

[Pandyman]

Thanks guys. Well then I will go with your suggested build Pandyman. Hellfire Warlock 3 and then taking on Legacy Champion to advance damage. I'm pretty excited about the build. If I make it to epic I might take on arcane trickster to advance damage just a bit further, but that is a while away.

:P Uncanny Trickster or Arcane Trickster? Cause Uncanny Trickster can be used in the same manner that Legacy Champion is normally used in. Uncanny trickster has a similar "existing class features" text. You could completely progress through Uncanny Trickster and use it to advance Hellfire Warlock. Then you could use Legacy Champion to advance Uncanny Trickster which would advance Uncanny Trickster and Hellfire Warlock stuff. I'm surprised this slipped my mind for this topic.

[Sugashane]

:P Uncanny Trickster or Arcane Trickster? Cause Uncanny Trickster can be used in the same manner that Legacy Champion is normally used in. Uncanny trickster has a similar "existing class features" text. You could completely progress through Uncanny Trickster and use it to advance Hellfire Warlock. Then you could use Legacy Champion to advance Uncanny Trickster which would advance Uncanny Trickster and Hellfire Warlock stuff. I'm surprised this slipped my mind for this topic.

You knew what I meant dammit!! LOL. Too bad it is such a short class.