Tome of Battle + Complete Warrior builds

[Clistenes]

I like how they have tried to fix the martial classes so they are not so underpowered when compared to spellcasters in both books, and I was wondering...is there any build that could combine a Swordsage or Warblade with a Dervish or Frenzied Berseker and end with a character that is more powerful than a "pure" Swordsage or Warblade?

[limejuicepowder]

I like how they have tried to fix the martial classes so they are not so underpowered when compared to spellcasters in both books, and I was wondering...is there any build that could combine a Swordsage or Warblade with a Dervish or Frenzied Berseker and end with a character that is more powerful than a "pure" Swordsage or Warblade?

Speaking generally, you don't need to go full initiator to get most of the good stuff from ToB. Since those are prestige classes, filling in the other 10 levels with initiator (assuming you take all 10 levels of the class, which is rarely worth it for most prestige classes) is going to be more deadly then straight warblade or w/e.

This is a big part of the reason why ToB is so popular - they make for the one of the best non-build specific dips in the game.

[Clistenes]

Speaking generally, you don't need to go full initiator to get most of the good stuff from ToB. Since those are prestige classes, filling in the other 10 levels with initiator (assuming you take all 10 levels of the class, which is rarely worth it for most prestige classes) is going to be more deadly then straight warblade or w/e.

This is a big part of the reason why ToB is so popular - they make for the one of the best non-build specific dips in the game.

So what build would you make with Warblade, Dervish and Frenzied Berseker? (and at least one level of Barbarian, if you take levels of Frenzied Berseker).

Any suggestions?

[Snowbluff]

So what build would you make with Warblade, Dervish and Frenzied Berseker? (and at least one level of Barbarian, if you take levels of Frenzied Berseker).

Any suggestions?

Don't touch Dervish, Diamond Mind (Time Stands Still, Avalanche of Blades) and pouncing made it largely obsolete.

I would take 2 Levels of Barbarian, 10 of Frenzied Berzerker (Rarge! Supreme PA!), 4 of Warblade, and finish off with 5 Eternal Blade (It gets the ability to get maneuvers early).

IF you have any Feat Slots after all that, pick up Imperious Command (DotU), and Leap Attack/Shock Trooper if you are feeling like and Ubercharger.

Also, fight with a Keen Falchion.

[Snowbluff]

Don't touch Dervish, Diamond Mind (Time Stands Still, Avalanche of Blades) and pouncing made it largely obsolete.

I would take 2 Levels of Barbarian, 10 of Frenzied Berzerker (Rarge! Supreme PA!), 4 of Warblade, and finish off with 5 Eternal Blade (It gets the ability to get maneuvers early).

IF you have any Feat Slots after all that, pick up Imperious Command (DotU), and Leap Attack/Shock Trooper if you are feeling like and Ubercharger.

Also, fight with a Keen Falchion.

Maeneuver Tips:

Iron Heart Surge can be used to end your Frenzy. Yay, no party killing!

Emerald Razor and Sapphire Nightmare Strike are great for large, single hits. The Diamond School also offers Ruby (x2 damage) and Diamond (x4 damage!) Nightmare Blades as well.

Time Stands Still lets you make 2 full attacks.

Avalanche of Blades lets you keep attacking at a cumulative -4 penalty until you missed.

The Blood in the Water stance gives you a cumulative +1 atk/dmg per time your crit.

[Clistenes]

Don't touch Dervish, Diamond Mind (Time Stands Still, Avalanche of Blades) and pouncing made it largely obsolete.

I would take 2 Levels of Barbarian, 10 of Frenzied Berzerker (Rarge! Supreme PA!), 4 of Warblade, and finish off with 5 Eternal Blade (It gets the ability to get maneuvers early).

IF you have any Feat Slots after all that, pick up Imperious Command (DotU), and Leap Attack/Shock Trooper if you are feeling like and Ubercharger.

Also, fight with a Keen Falchion.

And if you aren't an elf, and can't take levels of Eternal Blade?

[Snowbluff]

And if you aren't an elf, and can't take levels of Eternal Blade?

Yeah, but it's soooooo worth it if you have to sacrifice initiator levels.

[Clistenes]

Maeneuver Tips:

Iron Heart Surge can be used to end your Frenzy. Yay, no party killing!

Emerald Razor and Sapphire Nightmare Strike are great for large, single hits. The Diamond School also offers Ruby (x2 damage) and Diamond (x4 damage!) Nightmare Blades as well.

Time Stands Still lets you make 2 full attacks.

Avalanche of Blades lets you keep attacking at a cumulative -4 penalty until you missed.

The Blood in the Water stance gives you a cumulative +1 atk/dmg per time your crit.

I start to understand why people likes Tome of Battle so much! :smallbiggrin:

You know what the ToB lacks? Fluff. They should have given it an "Exalted Martial Arts" feel to it, and they would have been such enormous success that WotC wouldn't have launched 4th edition, and would have published a ton of books supporting the ToB classes instead.

[Darius Kane]

You know what the ToB lacks? Fluff.
Uh, no it doesn't. :smallconfused:


They should have given it an "Exalted Martial Arts" feel to it
But... it already has that feel. :smallconfused:

Did you, you know, actually read ToB? Because you sound like you didn't.

[Clistenes]

Uh, no it doesn't. :smallconfused:


But... it already has that feel. :smallconfused:

Did you, you know, actually read ToB? Because you sound like you didn't.

I have read the ToB (I got it in front of me right now), but I have never created a character based on it.

And the ToB can't compare with the Exalted setting in terms of fluff. If ToB were an Exalted sourcebook, each discipline would be portrayed as a martial arts school with its own particular image and its own history, its own iconic practitioners and masters (think of Even Blade Style, Tiger Style, Dreaming Pearl Courtesan Style, Ebon Shadow Style...etc.).

[INoKnowNames]

And the ToB can't compare with the Exalted setting in terms of fluff. If ToB were an Exalted sourcebook, each discipline would be portrayed as a martial arts school with its own particular image and its own history, its own iconic practitioners and masters (think of Even Blade Style, Tiger Style, Dreaming Pearl Courtesan Style, Ebon Shadow Style...etc.).

..... that's .... that's pretty much exactly how I personally have heard and considered it portrayed myself, actually. I actually had to go back and check that there wasn't specifically novel-length fluff over this.

So, Exalted is basically ToB on Steroids... maybe I should learn Exalted...

[limejuicepowder]

Iron heart surge ending frenzy is extremely debatable. If I was the DM, I would say No, it doesn't, but that's just me. I highly recommend you check this with your DM before making a build around it.

What I think is less debatable is using Moment of Perfect Clarity to substitute a concentration check for the will save to end the frenzy. With a high con score and decent ranks, you'll have no problem getting to +19 concentration to auto-succeed on the check. And it's a first level maneuver to boot.

I'm AFB right now so I can't make a very specific build, but there are a few general things to keep in mind:

-to get 9th level maneuvers (very worth it, generally), you need to get up to initiator level 17. Also, keep in mind when the class used gets new maneuvers. It does you no good to take the 17th level of initiator with a level of warblade where no new maneuvers are given.

-Once iterative attacks start, maneuvers are going to do less damage than a full attack (with a couple of notable exceptions, like diamond nightmare blade). Thus, feat selection is going to be virtually unchanged from a non-initiator melee build. A lot of the maneuvers look great, but in reality you will get much better mileage out of the boosts, counters, and stances (since they don't replace full attacks). Take a couple of the niche-type maneuvers for specific situations rather than "oooo +6d6 damage."

It's true that the dervish overlaps slightly more with what a initiator can do, but that doesn't mean it has nothing to offer. If I was going to make a dervish, I would definitely be dipping in to swordsage.

Human scout 4 fighter 2 swordsage 2 dervish 10 swordsage 2

feats by level: (1) combat expertise, dodge (3) weapon focus (4) dodge (5) TWF (6) improved skirmish, (free) (9) elusive target or ITWF

not sure where I would go after that - possible some martial study to grab the better maneuvers.

Cloak of deception and shadow jaunt work very well with dervish to get in to position and as defensive moves. I can't remember the names but there are two low level desert wind moves that are good as well - one boosts your speed and one grants an extra attack. The child of shadow stance is great too, since you'll be moving a lot.

[Snowbluff]

Iron heart surge ending frenzy is extremely debatable. If I was the DM, I would say No, it doesn't, but that's just me. I highly recommend you check this with your DM before making a build around it.

Misuse of the word 'extremely'. This is not putting out the sun. This is precisely the sort of effect the maneuver is designed to deal with..




-to get 9th level maneuvers (very worth it, generally), you need to get up to initiator level 17. Also, keep in mind when the class used gets new maneuvers. It does you no good to take the 17th level of initiator with a level of warblade where no new maneuvers are given.

Which is why I chose Eternal Blade.


-Once iterative attacks start, maneuvers are going to do less damage than a full attack (with a couple of notable exceptions, like diamond nightmare blade). Thus, feat selection is going to be virtually unchanged from a non-initiator melee build. A lot of the maneuvers look great, but in reality you will get much better mileage out of the boosts, counters, and stances (since they don't replace full attacks). Take a couple of the niche-type maneuvers for specific situations rather than "oooo +6d6 damage."

Exactly. The Diamond school is considered rather strong, thanks to the scaling effects it presents. Plus, it has the aforementioned save boosting maneuvers.


It's true that the dervish overlaps slightly more with what a initiator can do, but that doesn't mean it has nothing to offer. If I was going to make a dervish, I would definitely be dipping in to swordsage.

Well considering:

Time Stand Still mimics the primary effect of Dervish's capstone.

Pouncing (Pouncing Charge, or Lion Spirit Totem Barbarian) allows you to move and full attack in the same round.

The rest of the bonuses are largely numerical.

I don't think the dervish has much to offer past the bonus to atk/dmg and fast movement.

Also, can any one tell when it says they don't have to meet theprerequisites of Spring Attack for the bonus feat? All of the prerequisites for the feat are prerequisites for the class. If they don't qualify for the feat, they don't qualify for the class, and lose their class features anyway!

[Starbuck_II]

Iron heart surge ending frenzy is extremely debatable. If I was the DM, I would say No, it doesn't, but that's just me. I highly recommend you check this with your DM before making a build around it.

Well, you have to ask is it an effect affecting you?
Yes: then you can end it.
No: then you can't.

See when we joke about the sun, if you have light blindness, it is affecting you but it is more the interaction between your flaw and the sun: not just the sun.
But Frenzy? No laywer can argue it isn't affected. It plainly is.

Since there isn't a save, Frenzy can't stop you from activating it.

[navar100]

What I think is less debatable is using Moment of Perfect Clarity to substitute a concentration check for the will save to end the frenzy. With a high con score and decent ranks, you'll have no problem getting to +19 concentration to auto-succeed on the check. And it's a first level maneuver to boot.



Less debatable in that you can't use the maneuver at all since you can't use Concentration skill while in a fenzy.

[eggs]

The question over whether IHS can remove Frenzy isn't whether IHS can remove the frenzy when activated, it's whether activating IHS to remove the Frenzy in order to stop fighting its allies counts as fighting its allies to the best of the berserker's ability.

[Clistenes]

So, Exalted is basically ToB on Steroids...

Not really. The fluff of Exalted is great, but the whole combat system tends to be slow and very, very defensive. You can get killed being hit just once, so the designers of the came compensate it by giving the characters defensive options that are better than the offense, and combat often becomes an attrition battle in which the two opponents concentrate in defense, waiting for the other to waste all of his/her Essence (that is, to get tired), and then easily finishing him.

I would take ToB mechanics and marry it to Exalted fluff.

[Darrin]

The question over whether IHS can remove Frenzy isn't whether IHS can remove the frenzy when activated, it's whether activating IHS to remove the Frenzy in order to stop fighting its allies counts as fighting its allies to the best of the berserker's ability.

I call shennanigans on this. If the requirement to slaughter your fellow PCs were that ironclad, then the FB would be required to deliberately fail his Will save.

"To the best of the FB's abilities" clause is to prevent him from pulling his punches, by deliberately using nonlethal attacks or deliberately not using feats/weapons that he would normally use against his enemies. It was not intended to foil any legitimate methods to end the Frenzy early.

[limejuicepowder]

Less debatable in that you can't use the maneuver at all since you can't use Concentration skill while in a fenzy.

Hmm forgot about that. Now that I reread it it's quite explicit; "make a concentration check," which you can't do, so no go.

Oh well.

I know I'm going to get jumped on even more for this, but it's clear to me that using IHS to end something like frenzy is absolutely against RAI - the entire class is based on frenzy, and taking an standard action to end it is rather....odd, for lack of better words. The frenzied character is supposed to attack to the best of its ability, and ending the frenzy when convenient seems against the fluff AND intended crunch of the class. Combined with the non-desputable point that IHS is poorly worded and quantified, I have no problem saying it can't be used to end something like a frenzy (could it be used to end wild shape if, say, you figured out your enemy was a ranger with significant damage bonuses against animals? Kind of a silly parallel since wild shape can be ended at will anyways, but still).

Not a great argument I know, but that's how I would rule it in my games.

No matter what I think however, you should still check with your DM. He might completely disagree with me, and then you're golden.

[Kazyan]

Optimizers: "Hey, WotC, is this interaction between Sourcebook A and Sourcebook B intended?"
Writer A: "What's sourcebook B?"
Writer B: "What's sourcebook A?"

[Glimbur]

The question over whether IHS can remove Frenzy isn't whether IHS can remove the frenzy when activated, it's whether activating IHS to remove the Frenzy in order to stop fighting its allies counts as fighting its allies to the best of the berserker's ability.

It's similar to the problem with using Iron Heart Surge to end a Dominate effect. Yes, it would be very helpful and would free you, but at the start of the maneuver you are not free to make your own choices so you cannot choose to use the maneuver. At least, that is the case with how it is currently written.

[Snowbluff]

It's similar to the problem with using Iron Heart Surge to end a Dominate effect. Yes, it would be very helpful and would free you, but at the start of the maneuver you are not free to make your own choices so you cannot choose to use the maneuver. At least, that is the case with how it is currently written.

Well, if the Frenzy is having the adverse effect of keeping you from using your Concentration based maneuvers... :smalltongue:

[TopCheese]

I start to understand why people likes Tome of Battle so much! :smallbiggrin:

You know what the ToB lacks? Fluff. They should have given it an "Exalted Martial Arts" feel to it, and they would have been such enormous success that WotC wouldn't have launched 4th edition, and would have published a ton of books supporting the ToB classes instead.

I had to stop reading right here...

No matter how ToB played out 4e was coming. ToB is nothing more than a unofficial playtest for 4e.

Also ToB has ton of fluff though they kinda said weird things with it.

@ Kazyan: That is exactly the thing about D&D (or any table top game or anything else). You get to many people doing different things with no clue what other people are doing within the same game. And that is where crap hits the fan.

[Snowbluff]

No matter how ToB played out 4e was coming. ToB is nothing more than a unofficial playtest for 4e.


I wish people would stop saying this. ToB has more to do with Vancian Casting than it does with Powers per day/enounter/at-will.

[Starbuck_II]

I had to stop reading right here...

No matter how ToB played out 4e was coming. ToB is nothing more than a unofficial playtest for 4e.

Also ToB has ton of fluff though they kinda said weird things with it.

@ Kazyan: That is exactly the thing about D&D (or any table top game or anything else). You get to many people doing different things with no clue what other people are doing within the same game. And that is where crap hits the fan.

1. ToB doesn't have dailys (no more than smite which is in Core)
2. ToB doesn't have special at wills
3. ToB encounter powers can be refreshed.

in 4E to refresh you have to be epic or have just right prestige class (or whatever they are called)

I dare say, 4 6th level ToB PCs can handle 4 10th level 4E PCs.
a. Con bonus will help level hp difference (since it adds to every level in 3E)
b. Magic in 3E is stronger plus reuseable (scrolls/wands)

4E Essential classes (Slayer, Knight, Thief, etc) are closest to ToB, but those classes came later on.

[Darius Kane]

Lol at people saying that ToB couldn't possibly be a "playtest" for 4th ed because they're not identical. I never participated in a playtest, but isn't the point to... playtest the mechanics and change whatever you don't like?

[TopCheese]

Lol at people saying that ToB couldn't possibly be a "playtest" for 4th ed because they're not identical. I never participated in a playtest, but isn't the point to... playtest the mechanics and change whatever you don't like?

By the other's logic... since the first playtest for D&DNext is very very different from the current one.. Holy crap they are making 2 (or more) games at once!!! I mean they must be different games since the Fighter has changed into something different to fit into the game they are making.

But yeah you don't have to be identical to be a playtest. ToB showed WoTC that people wanted mundane to have options. You don't need full attacks or extra attacks if you have some cool maneuvers to pull out. I think they messed up when they gave martial characters dailies BUT the general concept is there. I think essentials got things better but that is because 4e didn't have the initial playtest done correctly...