Wizards learning spells ability

[PetterTomBos]

Wizards are tier 1, sorc tier 2. In my games my wizards generally don't learn spells from scrolls, does this push them down into T2, or does wizards have some other edge over sorcs?

[Vizzerdrix]

I don't see why it would. Just because they don't doesn't mean they can't. Even then they can take feats and use other spell books to supplement their spell selection up to silly levels.

[erikun]

Tier listings tend to assume a certain set of variables, such as moderate optimization and wealth to spend. While having wizards who won't scribe spells (by player choice or scroll rarity) won't technically change the tier of the class, you'll notice that wizards are not necessarily as powerful without additional scrolls.

...Which, in practical terms, may mean a lot or may mean nothing. You may find that it turns wizards into INT-sorcerers, only making use of the two spells gained each level. You may find it makes no difference, because your wizard player knows what two spells to pick each level for maximum effectiveness. It may not matter because Fireball is the best spell ever.

It really ranges on the group, the playstyle, and their familiarity with the system.

[Fates]

Wizards are tier 1, sorc tier 2. In my games my wizards generally don't learn spells from scrolls, does this push them down into T2, or does wizards have some other edge over sorcs?

Most wizards get the vast majority of their spells from other wizards' spellbooks, as it's easier and much cheaper. If, in the case of your campaign, wizards do not end up with very many spells, then yes, I'd put them about on par with the sorcerer.

[Fates]

It may not matter because Fireball is the best spell ever.

Good sir, I'd like to introduce you to my friends, Haste and Stinking Cloud. In my experience, those two, particularly the latter, are the best the PHB has to offer in 3rd-level sor/wizard spells (campaign-dependent, of course).

[Wings of Peace]

In a technical sense no. The Wizard will still naturally know more spells, get bonus feats that let him fiddle with those spells, and has more options (non-scroll based) for getting even more spells.

In a practical sense a lot of this will depend on how you personally run your campaign. Tiers address versatility. But if in your universe 90% of the problems players encounter can be solved with high damage output alone then a lot of that versatility becomes redundant.

[Story]

All it means is that they have to waste a feat on Collegiate Wizard.

[Melcar]

What is best tier 1 or 2... dont understand your count!

[nedz]

I have seen wizards played poorly, always cast magic missile or fireball — even at high level — which would make them Tier 4.

The reason that they are Tier 1 is because of how they can be played.
Basically they can have a different spell in every slot which allows them an unrivalled flexibility — oh and they can change their spells depending upon the challenge.

There are many ways in which wizards can increase their options.

By going up levels
Learning spells from scrolls
Paying NPC wizards to borrow their books
If you have two wizards in the party then they can swap spells
If the party defeat a wizard then they get to access their spell book


If your players aren't doing all of these, then it is not the class which is poor.

[erikun]

Good sir, I'd like to introduce you to my friends, Haste and Stinking Cloud. In my experience, those two, particularly the latter, are the best the PHB has to offer in 3rd-level sor/wizard spells (campaign-dependent, of course).
I am speaking about what is best for the particular campaign. If the characters run up against nothing but orcs all the time - or they just never tried other spells - and Fireball has worked for them, then having access to the entire PHB in scrolls isn't going to make much of a difference to them. Also, the party's wizard probably won't be that impressive, beyond wide areas of damage.


What is best tier 1 or 2... dont understand your count!
This tier list (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0) is what we are talking about.

[JoshuaZ]

What is best tier 1 or 2... dont understand your count!

Behold the tier system (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0).

[ahenobarbi]

Wizards are tier 1, sorc tier 2. In my games my wizards generally don't learn spells from scrolls, does this push them down into T2, or does wizards have some other edge over sorcs?

They still know more spells. Especially highest-level spells. Even without collegiate wizard. And they still get bonus feats. And they still have better casting stat. And better ACFs. And easier qualification for PrCs. And if you have two wizards in your party...

[Fates]

I am speaking about what is best for the particular campaign. If the characters run up against nothing but orcs all the time - or they just never tried other spells - and Fireball has worked for them, then having access to the entire PHB in scrolls isn't going to make much of a difference to them. Also, the party's wizard probably won't be that impressive, beyond wide areas of damage.


Ah, right. Sorry about that, I am a bit overeager to advocate stinking cloud, you know. That spell has gotten me out of a lot of holes.

[TuggyNE]

What is best tier 1 or 2... dont understand your count!

The tier list has already been linked, but in short, T1 is capable of breaking campaigns wide open in several different ways each day, and switching between them, while T2 only has a few ways it can break a campaign and can't easily switch. Neither is really "best", but T1 is more overpowered and overversatile. ("Best" in the tier list is usually considered either T3 or T4, as those have enough options and power to be useful and interesting in a party without requiring exorbitant DM effort to remain challenged, or contrariwise excessive DM effort to remain alive and contribute, like T5/T6.)

[Story]

or contrariwise excessive DM effort to remain alive and contribute, like T5/T6.)

You know, reading about just how badly fighters are outclassed by full spellcasters makes me actually sympathize with Eugene. A poorly built fighter really has no business going against an epic level sorcerer, even if said sorcerer is an idiot. Waiting for Julia to come of age is the only sensible course of action. At least she will have a chance eventually.