Tucker's Kobolds

[Story]

How dangerous are Tucker's Kobolds really?

It seems like Fog Cloud negates the snipers completely while the party buffs/decides what to do. Then you can throw out Hypnotisms once you find a way around the barriers.

It seems like Tuckers Kobolds would have trouble with a 3rd level party with a Wizard, let alone the 12th level party they menaced in the original story.

[Starbuck_II]

How dangerous are Tucker's Kobolds really?

It seems like Fog Cloud negates the snipers completely while the party buffs/decides what to do. Then you can throw out Hypnotisms once you find a way around the barriers.

It seems like Tuckers Kobolds would have trouble with a 3rd level party with a Wizard, let alone the 12th level party they menaced in the original story.

You aren't thinking like Tucker's players though.
See Tucker DMed beer and pretzel players: they didn't think things through, spellcasters were only damage dealers (not battle field control), etc.

If they acted and thought rationally Tucker's kobolds would have been easy. Yet, remember XP from monsters was barely anything, treasure was the main source. So wasting resources fighting kobolfs gave little benefit.

[RFLS]

Actually, you seem to have missed the point of Tucker's Kobolds. The point was that a group of prepared, organized, and smart low level monsters could be a massive threat to a high level party.

[Jerthanis]

Heck, even thinking of spellcasters as damage dealers: "I cast magic missile, two to a Kobold and then the fifth to another" DM: "Alright, you auto-kill two of them and kill a third on a good roll" Wizard: "Sweet, if we run into too much trouble with these guys, we can always retreat and I'll memorize all Magic Missile in my 1st and 2nd level slots."

Fighter: "I have THAC0 9 with a +3 Missile adjust, what do I need to roll to hit them behind all their cover?" DM: "...an 11"

DM: "Okay, the burning garbage rolls over on you, you take 4 fire damage"
Player: "Oh, good thing I have 80 HP, I butcher the Kobold who rolled it at me with an Awl Pike."

DM: "The Kobolds move off through small-sized tunnels to escape"
Player: "Alright, what are the penalties for squeezing to go after them? We need to decide if we all go and bury them under our numbers or if we should just send the Dwarf with a potion of heroism and the Fighter with a potion of Reduce Person."

DM: "They Ambush you!"
Player: "I'm busy, I put a Wall of Stone between us"

Or even; Player: "I'm sick of all these ambushes, Thief, take a potion of invisibility and scout out the next area, then we'll ambush THEM"

I am boggled by the idea of Tucker's Kobolds. It's like an example of "Sometimes, players don't even attempt to oppose their enemies effectively for some reason" or "Sometimes, a DM can give their opponents better numbers than are generally associated with these creatures to challenge PCs they generally no longer could."

Both are pretty worthless revelations. Sometimes players just get that philosophy about weird things... "Oh god, we can't fight DROW! They're too powerful, we'd never survive!" When they're just elves with spell resistance. You can take any creature of low Hit Dice, make tons and tons of them appear in privledged battlefield position and with hundreds of thousands of man-hours of preparations for a group of four to six well trained and equipped murderhobos to wander in and if they get spooked by you, they might not just murder you all anyway, albeit with more difficulty than they might have originally thought.

[huttj509]

Actually, you seem to have missed the point of Tucker's Kobolds. The point was that a group of prepared, organized, and smart low level monsters could be a massive threat to a unprepared high level party.

Inserted a key word. If the party's prepared for Tuckers, yes, they can be handled and not have much drain on party resources.

Unprepared? "AAAAH, the anklebiters are back!"

[rweird]

Also, I'm pretty sure Tucker's Kobolds where from 1st or 2nd edition, if not earlier, meaning spell casting was done differently, and at low levels, if your unlucky, you might be a fighter with 2 HP max.

[RFLS]

I am boggled by the idea of Tucker's Kobolds. It's like an example of "Sometimes, players don't even attempt to oppose their enemies effectively for some reason" or "Sometimes, a DM can give their opponents better numbers than are generally associated with these creatures to challenge PCs they generally no longer could."

Both are pretty worthless revelations. Sometimes players just get that philosophy about weird things... "Oh god, we can't fight DROW! They're too powerful, we'd never survive!" When they're just elves with spell resistance. You can take any creature of low Hit Dice, make tons and tons of them appear in privledged battlefield position and with hundreds of thousands of man-hours of preparations for a group of four to six well trained and equipped murderhobos to wander in and if they get spooked by you, they might not just murder you all anyway, albeit with more difficulty than they might have originally thought.

So, it's not about giving the kobolds bigger numbers or about spooking the party. The idea is that low level threats that plan properly can challenge a party of higher level that their CR indicates they should.


Inserted a key word. If the party's prepared for Tuckers, yes, they can be handled and not have much drain on party resources.

...I meant exactly what I said. You're assuming differing levels of optimization between the party and the kobolds, which, again, kinda misses the point. The whole point is that you, the DM, are playing many low level threats intelligently, which would include optimization, layout of their home, planning for various threats, escape routes, etcetera.

[Starbuck_II]

Also, I'm pretty sure Tucker's Kobolds where from 1st or 2nd edition, if not earlier, meaning spell casting was done differently, and at low levels, if your unlucky, you might be a fighter with 2 HP max.

Well, Sleep and MM had spell casting speeds of 1 meaning, you just did them no waiting. And sleep took out loads of kobolds.

[BowStreetRunner]

The point of Tucker's Kobolds is that a well-prepared group fighting a poorly-prepared group will have a significant advantage that can overcome even a vast disparity of class levels and hit dice. There are numerous historical examples of seemingly David and Goliath style odds being overcome with victory going to the weaker force (Agincourt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Agincourt), Cannae (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cannae), and Bannockburn (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Bannockburn) all come to mind).

[Jerthanis]

So, it's not about giving the kobolds bigger numbers or about spooking the party. The idea is that low level threats that plan properly can challenge a party of higher level that their CR indicates they should.


Perhaps to a certain degree, but there's nothing short of outright messing with their numbers that should stop Magic Missile and just using missile weapons from being effective. If you're at all careful OR at all interested in leveraging the spectacular dungeoncrawling tools afforded to high level characters, or even just persistent enough, you WILL wipe out 1d4 HP, AC 7, THAC0 20, 1d4 damage monsters and all the tactics in the world won't save them because they lack the capacity to roll high enough to meaningfully affect you.

[rweird]

Well, Sleep and MM had spell casting speeds of 1 meaning, you just did them no waiting. And sleep took out loads of kobolds.

Though not every wizard has all the spells, and unless they have a very high Int, I don't think they can have all the spells, though that is a fair point.

[Zombimode]

Well, Sleep and MM had spell casting speeds of 1 meaning, you just did them no waiting. And sleep took out loads of kobolds.

Well, there is still a space of 1 segment for the caster to be interrupted. Only with a casting time of 0 (which, iirc, no spell has) the spell would be truly instantaneous.

[Story]

Fog Cloud seems like the kind of thing most Wizards would have prepared anyway. Unless you've banned Conjuration, you could probably deal with it, even unprepared. (Note I don't actually have experience with this, I'm just guessing)

Edit: Rope Trick would also give the party a chance to recover and buff up, though they might end up walking into a trap when they come out.

And the preparation thing is moot because the originally story specified that the party knew exactly what was coming, having encountered the kobolds before.

[toapat]

Tucker's Kobolds were a very different enemy then the kobolds of 3.5. While a Fog Cloud would have provided a level of protection against the archers, the Knightbolds were downright invincible in their fullplate. Offensive spells were almost useless against most of the kobolds because there was no Line of Sight/Line of Effect to them, and it doesnt particularly matter if the Kobold snipers had to see their targets because they just had to make a ranged touch against the hole, and fire across the hallway.

Tuk Tuk's clan was as a result, dangerous because they were using RL ambush tactics. Translated to 3.5, the tribe has made full use of the Stronghold builder's guidebook, and so instead of Knightbolds, you have Tanks. Instead of Ambush hallways, you have interlocked multiple redundancy traps in Corridors. Tucker's Kobolds brought into 3.5 rules are even worse then in 2nd

[rweird]

Tucker's Kobolds were a very different enemy then the kobolds of 3.5. While a Fog Cloud would have provided a level of protection against the archers, the Knightbolds were downright invincible in their fullplate. Offensive spells were almost useless against most of the kobolds because there was no Line of Sight/Line of Effect to them, and it doesnt particularly matter if the Kobold snipers had to see their targets because they just had to make a ranged touch against the hole, and fire across the hallway.

Tuk Tuk's clan was as a result, dangerous because they were using RL ambush tactics. Translated to 3.5, the tribe has made full use of the Stronghold builder's guidebook, and so instead of Knightbolds, you have Tanks. Instead of Ambush hallways, you have interlocked multiple redundancy traps in Corridors. Tucker's Kobolds brought into 3.5 rules are even worse then in 2nd

Though a high level party could cast a few spells and just teleport past them, or use spells that grant DR, Miss Chances, energy resistance, immunities, etc to just tough if out, maybe ready actions to kill them when they show themselves, and use summons to trigger all the traps.

[ahenobarbi]

Basically what BowStreetRunner wrote:

The point of Tucker's Kobolds is that a well-prepared group fighting a poorly-prepared group will have a significant advantage that can overcome even a vast disparity of class levels and hit dice.

DM planned, prepared and took every advantage he could think of. Players tried to run without really thinking. This resulted in massive damage to the party. If players decided to prepare for the encounter or to proceed carefully rather than run into the trap they probably would wipe out kobolds with little damage.

Basically the point is to show players that tactics matter a lot (not only number on character sheet).

[Jerthanis]

Basically what BowStreetRunner wrote:


DM planned, prepared and took every advantage he could think of. Players tried to run without really thinking. This resulted in massive damage to the party. If players decided to prepare for the encounter or to proceed carefully rather than run into the trap they probably would wipe out kobolds with little damage.

Basically the point is to show players that tactics matter a lot (not only number on character sheet).

The problem with this is that in most cases, tactics DON'T matter as much as the numbers on the character sheet. You can make Kobold murder holes and they will miss 95% of the time and do less than 10% of your HP when they do hit. It doesn't matter how many blind corners they flee around or delay tactics you use, if they can't meaningfully affect your numbers, they cannot beat you. You can delay the players and make the kobolds flee and watch the PCs not care because they can't be beaten without allowing the Kobolds to have better stats than they are written in the book, either by giving them more HP, AC, attack bonus, or damage. And at that point, you aren't threatening them with the same weak monsters using good tactics, you're throwing stronger monsters at them.

D&D rewards good tactics and punishes bad tactics, but they aren't the primary decider of victory or loss... luck and statistics are.

Now, the other option is to bury them under numbers by allowing for hundreds and hundreds of total fighting kobolds, allowing the weight of numbers to shift in their own favors, but again, that still isn't using tactics, but statistics.

[ahenobarbi]

The problem with this is that in most cases, tactics DON'T matter as much as the numbers on the character sheet. You can make Kobold murder holes and they will miss 95% of the time and do less than 10% of your HP when they do hit. It doesn't matter how many blind corners they flee around or delay tactics you use, if they can't meaningfully affect your numbers, they cannot beat you. You can delay the players and make the kobolds flee and watch the PCs not care because they can't be beaten without allowing the Kobolds to have better stats than they are written in the book, either by giving them more HP, AC, attack bonus, or damage. And at that point, you aren't threatening them with the same weak monsters using good tactics, you're throwing stronger monsters at them.

D&D rewards good tactics and punishes bad tactics, but they aren't the primary decider of victory or loss... luck and statistics are.

Now, the other option is to bury them under numbers by allowing for hundreds and hundreds of total fighting kobolds, allowing the weight of numbers to shift in their own favors, but again, that still isn't using tactics, but statistics.

You are right that if those were 4 straight-out-of-MM-entry kobolds with no terrain adventage (CR1) there is no way they could endanger ECL12 adventurers. Unless those adventurers were just standing waiting for kobolds to finish them off :smallwink:

That's because the bigger difference in power the bigger difference in tactics you need to compensate for it. And Tuckers Kobolds show nicely that tactics are important. The gap in power was vast[1] but because of stupid tactics of the party[2] they took significant damage. If the party gave it some thought they could easily just walk past the kobolds. Or kill them.

So I think my point that tactics matter a lot holds :smalltongue:

[1] Probably not as big as it might seem at first glance because kobolds had numbers, extra equipment and terrain advantage.
[2] They just kept running into traps and taking damage.

[awa]

keep in mind in second edition and possibly first the ac spread was vastly smaller and hit points were much lower. second lack of skills made it infinitely easier to ambush someone and characters had much fewer spells.

If i recall correctly the party in question just tried to run past the kobolds rather then fight them.

In my experience the problem with most modern attempts at tuckers kobolds revolve around giving the kobolds many times their normal wealth by level in consumables and one shot items and spend their entire live siting in a murder hole with a readied action. leading to annoying encounters that add on being unrealistic to boot.

[Gavinfoxx]

Well let's look at what tactics the players used...

http://www.tuckerskobolds.com/

1.) The only area of effect spell the wizard had was fireball, which would have roasted the party
2.) The group didn't really have much/any fire resistance
3.) The Kobolds used a LOT of fire area of effect options with fire
4.) The Party was just trying to make a run for it to get past them

It sounds like the party was mostly equipped only for big, simple monsters, or to fireball an open room...

[Togo]

I've never seen an account of tucker's kobolds that didn't appear to describe a DM heavily slanting the encounter in favour of the monsters, - not just with superior tactics, which I agree make a huge difference, but slanted rulings about the effects of the tactics being employed.

The last time I ran into something similar to Tucker's Kobolds, albiet less elabourate, I pointed out to the DM that my melee character could get into their tunnels, was the same size as the kobolds, and could move much faster than they could. So where exactly is the problem?

[Water_Bear]

You are right that if those were 4 straight-out-of-MM-entry kobolds with no terrain adventage (CR1) there is no way they could endanger ECL12 adventurers. Unless those adventurers were just standing waiting for kobolds to finish them off :smallwink:

That's because the bigger difference in power the bigger difference in tactics you need to compensate for it. And Tuckers Kobolds show nicely that tactics are important. The gap in power was vast[1] but because of stupid tactics of the party[2] they took significant damage. If the party gave it some thought they could easily just walk past the kobolds. Or kill them.

So I think my point that tactics matter a lot holds :smalltongue:

[1] Probably not as big as it might seem at first glance because kobolds had numbers, extra equipment and terrain advantage.
[2] They just kept running into traps and taking damage.

CR is a 3.X development, and not really relevant to a 2e or earlier game like the one Tucker's Kobolds were made for.

Ironically, as much as some players of older editions like to say 3.X was too gamist and took the tactics / creativity out of D&D, it would actually support this kind of approach a lot better. With careful Feat selection and use of Teamwork benefits small squads of 1-HD archers can actually hit mid-level targets, and tricks like Dragonfire Inspiration or Ready Shot mean they can do decent damage under the right conditions. Kobolds, masters of traps, benefit from the strange rules for Trap creation most of all. Organized by a Dragonwrought Kobold with the Dungeonmaster Prestige Class, I could see a tribe of otherwise standard Kobolds trouncing an overconfident party in 3.5.

Other editions seem like they would have a lot more trouble. 2e's Morale rules, lack of mechanical benefits for teamwork and lower emphasis on tactical combat means that the Kobolds are at a much bigger disadvantage. 4e's Minion rules would make mincemeat out of the Kobolds and Skill Challenges mean traps are... very very odd. I'm not familiar enough with older editions to make a comment on their ability to run this kind of scenario.

[Story]

The last time I ran into something similar to Tucker's Kobolds, albiet less elabourate, I pointed out to the DM that my melee character could get into their tunnels, was the same size as the kobolds, and could move much faster than they could. So where exactly is the problem?

Even with Slight Build?

[Milo v3]

The last time I ran into something similar to Tucker's Kobolds, albiet less elabourate, I pointed out to the DM that my melee character could get into their tunnels, was the same size as the kobolds, and could move much faster than they could. So where exactly is the problem?

The only issue I could see is that the tunnel could be cat-sized. Kobolds can pass through cat-sized passages without needing to squeeze because of Slight Build.

[toapat]

Though a high level party could cast a few spells and just teleport past them, or use spells that grant DR, Miss Chances, energy resistance, immunities, etc to just tough if out, maybe ready actions to kill them when they show themselves, and use summons to trigger all the traps.

Tucker's Kobolds are entirely about rigging the odds against the players. Not just tactically, but in every way possible. You think that Summons will ablate the traps? Nope, you can march a thousand and the traps will not run out. you can certainly teleport past the labyrinth tanks, but they are tanks, the gun is only one of the many dangerous pieces, and being pinned under one certainly wont be good for your health.

A better summary of how to properly run Tucker's Kobolds is, "You are not Prepared." But having these Kobolds well overequiped is inaccurate, these are Kobolds who are prepared for anything. If they were a military force, They would be the first ones in.

[Augmental]

The only reason the Tucker's Kobolds won was an optimization gap. If the players were as optimized as the kobolds, who do you think would win?

[Vorr]

How dangerous are Tucker's Kobolds really?

It seems like Fog Cloud negates the snipers completely while the party buffs/decides what to do. Then you can throw out Hypnotisms once you find a way around the barriers.

It seems like Tuckers Kobolds would have trouble with a 3rd level party with a Wizard, let alone the 12th level party they menaced in the original story.

This shows the differences in play styles(modern vs classic) and even shows a good example of Old School vs New School.

1.The Encounter In both New School and Modern play, an Encounter is a very official, defined thing. Even more so for 4E where you have encounter powers that can be used per encounter. An encounter is a set number of foes, in a set area. So the 200 kobolds would be broken down into challenging encounters of say 25 kobolds.

Old School and Classic Play does not have such set encounters. In effect, the whole 200 kobolds would be one encounter. And they could be found any way as there is little emphasis on 'balanced challenges'. If the group was fighting 25 kobolds, and 25 reinforcements showed up, that would still all be part of the one long encounter.

2.Rest In both New School and Modern Play, rest is a very big part of the game. There are set limits as to how much using up abilities, spells, equipment and such equate to the balanced encounter. Game play is structured to keep characters at close to 100% at all times.

Old School and Classic Play does not have such set rest. Game play simply continues forever, often with little rest. When you hear a story about an archmage that threw rocks(after having cast every spell, used every magic item and ran out of crossbow bolts) for several hours of game play, that is an Old School game.

3.Death In both New School and Modern Play, character death and injury is downplayed in favor of a more story challenge. The kobolds are less of monsters trying to kill the characters, and more foes providing a challenge. And random roll death is very rare.


Old School and Classic Play has character death and injury front and center. Tuckers Kobolds is a great example of a meat grinder type of encounter. The loss of all henchmen and hirelings(aka cohorts, animal companions and familiars) is a big blow to a group. Players knew that a dice roll or two could spell the end of a character.

4.Fairness In both New School and Modern Play, an encounter is fair and balanced. Things that would simply be unfair, and thus unfun, simply do not happen. The DM careful crafts things in such a way to keep the game play fair. You'd note that the kobolds stole a lot of the groups treasure; this would be counted as unfair to many gamers.

Old School and Classic Play is simply put, very unfair. So it would not be unheard of for a group to adventure in a dungeon all night and come out with no treasure. You would also note the use of things like murder holes is generally unfair, and most games simply don't use such things.

5.Goals In both New School and Modern Play, the goal is to have fun while telling a shared story.

Old School and Classic Play the goal is to have fun and keep your character alive to tell a story about.

[Water_Bear]

The problem with your Old v New comparison is that all of the things you characterize as distinctly "Old School" are pretty standard in 3.X, and presumably 4e as well (not a fan, so not sure).

1. Combat Encounters can, and do, consist of however many creatures (hostile or not) that the DM feels like throwing at the Party. CR is used because it's a good yardstick of challenge, but isn't an absolute limiter; in the games I DM, challenges run from about a CR+4 to CR+8, but other games have different power levels and DM styles.

I've literally never seen it suggested that reinforcements be treated as new separate encounters; that isn't in any rules or DM advice, and is silly.

2. Rest is something Players like to have and DMs don't like Players to have. Remember, the DMG suggests that PCs should have 3-4 CR equivilent encounters a day. And that a CR equivilent encounter is supposed to take ~25% of your resources, that's health gold and spell-slots, to deal with.

Personally I run slower paced games because I don't like to see PCs go from 1st to 20th level in a year of game time, and I tend to treat combat as a way of adding tension to the climax of a session rather than as filler.

3. One of the big complaints about combat in 3.X is that it turns into rocket tag as soon as you clear level 6 or so. Fighters with Power Attack and lances dealing 80+ damage a hit at fairly low levels, tons of Save or Die spells, even random critical hits or just getting lucky on damage rolls. And all of this applies to monsters as well.

Having more AC or hitpoints per level isn't such a huge consolation when attack bonuses and damage grow much much faster, and Save or Die abilities become more and more commonplace. The only way 3.X isn't lethal is if your DM fudges the dice in your favor.

4. I'm really not sure where people get this idea. I've read the 3.X and 2e sourcebooks, and both of them give virtually identical advice for being a fair DM without being a pushover. On the forums here, I've read people describing their "Old School" and "Modern" games, and again the issue of DM impartiality seems pretty consistent.

If you are following through with the logical consequences of an action, or playing an enemy to the best of it's abilities, that's generally considered kosher. Singling PCs out to punish players, arbitrary DM Fiat to keep the story moving (AKA Railroading), and general power-tripping "Killer DM" behavior is looked down on in every edition.

5. Yeah, that I'll give you that.

Though, again, people take this too far when edition-warring; no good DM is literally writing a plot, it's about setting up circumstances so that PCs can make choices which are interesting either way. A party who dies in a battle with Orcs trying to save their town isn't any less awesome of a story than the party who drove the Orcs off and began to raise an army to drive them out of civilized lands.

[awa]

in regards to the fairness of encounters i definitely agree.
second edition was full of monster that completely destroyed you if you did not do the exactly right thing (which was often counter intuitive) the number of things that could cripple a character beyond any hope of salvaging them was also much larger.

latter edition with saving throws and the ability to heal ability damge.
even the ability to make listen and knowledge make a big difference.

[Blightedmarsh]

I think part of the problem is that a high level caster can beat tuckers kobalds with relative ease. I say so what? 3.5 high level casters can do pretty much whatever they want to whoever they want.

Now if the group did not have casters, if this was a low magic world or if the kobalds brought in some venerable dragon wrought sorcerers (or heaven forbid pun-pun) then the playing field is quite different.

[The Random NPC]

I think part of the problem is that a high level caster can beat tuckers kobalds with relative ease. I say so what? 3.5 high level casters can do pretty much whatever they want to whoever they want.

Now if the group did not have casters, if this was a low magic world or if the kobalds brought in some venerable dragon wrought sorcerers (or heaven forbid pun-pun) then the playing field is quite different.

That is part of the problem, the other part is dismissing a threat as beneath you. It's been a while since I read the story, so forgive me if some of the details are off, but from what I recall, the PCs decided to just run through the kobolds. That plus the preparation of the kobolds caused the players to panic. Note, it wasn't the characters that panicked, the players did. In military terms, that would be known as a rout, which any strategist will tell you is very deadly for the defeated party.

[toapat]

Remember, that Tucker's Kobolds was NOT a 3.5 game. it was ADnD or ADnD 2

People who say that a Caster would be able to easily ruin the thing: Alot of the more dangerous Kobolds in the tribe of Tuktuk were not in LoE for spells. you have to be willing to burn lots of Disintegrates and lots of Move earth to get at the snipers, and even then it will be hard.

[Rubik]

There are some great ideas on how to go about doing this in this thread. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=155518)

Not sure if I've been swordsage'd Tuckered, but I'll leave it here anyway.

[Radar]

Due to many a rulebooks D&D 3.5 does allow for unusually powerfull low-level characters or entire communities, which would give an unoptimized party run for their money.

Right on theese boards, there is a throughout Commoner guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=232822) worth looking at.

[icefractal]

Also, the idea wasn't that Kobolds can defeat anything. It even mentions scaling that up to giants or something for a higher level party. The main thing you can take from it is that tactics and environment make a huge difference in effective difficulty.

Which is true even with optimized characters using good tactics, because while they could handle Tucker's Kobolds without too much trouble, it's still a hell of a lot harder than the cake walk which no-tactic Kobolds in a big empty cavern would be.

[prufock]

How dangerous are Tucker's Kobolds really?

It seems like Fog Cloud negates the snipers completely while the party buffs/decides what to do. Then you can throw out Hypnotisms once you find a way around the barriers.

It seems like Tuckers Kobolds would have trouble with a 3rd level party with a Wizard, let alone the 12th level party they menaced in the original story.

In the event of Fog Cloud, the little buggers just start dropping alchemist's fire and lamp oil from murder-holes in the ceiling. They set you on fire and retreat for a few minutes.

[only1doug]

In the event of Fog Cloud, the little buggers just start dropping alchemist's fire and lamp oil from murder-holes in the ceiling. They set you on fire and retreat for a few minutes.

And your protection from fire makes it completely irrelevent.

[prufock]

And your protection from fire makes it completely irrelevent.

If you have Protection from Fire active, you're safe.

Until the wood starts to burn. Then you have smoke inhalation to overcome, as well as those deadfall traps that are now burning, while the kobolds wait patiently in the next area.

[only1doug]

If you have Protection from Fire active, you're safe.

Until the wood starts to burn. Then you have smoke inhalation to overcome, as well as those deadfall traps that are now burning, while the kobolds wait patiently in the next area.

Yes, because the PCs have nothing better to do than stand about waiting for the smoke levels to rise enough to choke them to death instead of acting against those who have attacked them.

[LTwerewolf]

If you have Protection from Fire active, you're safe.

Until the wood starts to burn. Then you have smoke inhalation to overcome, as well as those deadfall traps that are now burning, while the kobolds wait patiently in the next area.

And acid flasks. "But I have a solution for that too!" That's ok, it only lasts for so long, and you don't have any idea how big the fortress is. Eventually you will run out of resources. You also don't have any idea how long it's been there, so there could have been several generations of kobolds getting the place ready. You also never know what the place was beforehand. Maybe it was a stronghold for a wizard back in the day, and some of the permanent effects still work, like an antimagic field in one room.

[RFLS]

And your protection from fire makes it completely irrelevent.


Yes, because the PCs have nothing better to do than stand about waiting for the smoke levels to rise enough to choke them to death instead of acting against those who have attacked them.

I don't understand why you're arguing this.... the whole point is that the kobolds are always capable of doing something nasty if they're properly prepared.

[LTwerewolf]

I don't understand why you're arguing this.... the whole point is that the kobolds are always capable of doing something nasty if they're properly prepared.

Think he just doesn't like the idea that something could beat a wizard.

[Story]

People who say that a Caster would be able to easily ruin the thing: Alot of the more dangerous Kobolds in the tribe of Tuktuk were not in LoE for spells. you have to be willing to burn lots of Disintegrates and lots of Move earth to get at the snipers, and even then it will be hard.

I don't know about RAW, but I think under any reasonable interpretation, Hypnotism should work as long as they can see or hear the effect. So it should work through murderholes.


In the event of Fog Cloud, the little buggers just start dropping alchemist's fire and lamp oil from murder-holes in the ceiling. They set you on fire and retreat for a few minutes.

Unlike Obscuring Mist, Fog Cloud doesn't say anything about being vulnerable to fire. So how will they know where to drop it? I guess they could just drop it everywhere.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Yes, because the PCs have nothing better to do than stand about waiting for the smoke levels to rise enough to choke them to death instead of acting against those who have attacked them.
I'm pretty sure it's not advantageous for the PCs to be busting out against their now-hidden enemies, who may be anywhere.

(As a side note: if the kobolds are visible, they're doing something wrong. There will be heaps of passages and alcoves and cover for them to have. The traps strewn about the passages are there to start the fun, and the kobolds only send in their actual fighters when the party's stuck. The party can't hit what they can't see. This is also how you get the wizard to burn their Sleep spells--if they can't see the kobolds, they're gonna have to guess where to fire them off.)

[only1doug]

to me the point of tuckers kobolds has always been that if you don't treat the threat seriously it will hurt you, If Tuckers PC's had taken a systematic approach and settled in to destroy the kobolds they would have eventually triumphed, probably after 3-4 sessions (as the GM got bored of the little nuisances after awhile).

The reason that the kobolds were such a danger was because they were not taken seriously, even though the party knew that the kobolds could hurt them.

Lets explore that a bit further, why do I say not taken seriously? The party knew the kobolds were there and were going to attack them and yet their entire strategy for dealing with them was run past and hope they don't do too much damage, then we can get down to the real monsters and kill them for their loot before the run back. And this strategy worked, each time they went in, lost minions and mounts and got back out with some loot. Why didn't the players take the genocide option? I can't answer that, probably because the GM had already taught them to fear the kobolds from when they were lower level and they just didn't want the hassles involved with wiping them out while running past was still working.

Given sufficient time a high level group would be able to eliminate a well organised defense of lower level threats, the only way that Tuckers Kobolds should work against a properly organised party is if there is a plot based time pressure that prevents the party from focusing on eliminating that threat before proceeding deeper into the dungeon.


I don't understand why you're arguing this.... the whole point is that the kobolds are always capable of doing something nasty if they're properly prepared.

And a prepared party should be able to react and eliminate the kobolds.


Think he just doesn't like the idea that something could beat a wizard.

I don't like the concept that the kobolds get to be unstoppable PC killers because Plot.

[Archmage1]

Somewhat off topic, but I sort of felt that it was needed
Best way to beat a wizard: improvised weapon: Wizard.
just because the image of an orc barbarian picking up a wizard to beat another wizard to death with is so amusing.

In other news, The only real issue I see with Tucker's kobolds in 3.5 is the difficulty of hitting high armor class.
They could be really evil, and use some of the more obscure alchemical stuff, such as Aboleth Mucus, Atramen oil, so the mucus can work, eggshell grenades, as there is no reason the party needs to see(blind with no save), marbles, because the level one rogue kobolds like sneak attacks buffed by their bard with dragonfire inspiration and their bard with inspire courage, nets, screaming flasks, so your players are blinded and deafened, tanglefoot bags...

Burn enough one shot items, and anyone can kill anything...

[prufock]

Yes, because the PCs have nothing better to do than stand about waiting for the smoke levels to rise enough to choke them to death instead of acting against those who have attacked them.

Those who have attacked them are already out of the area. They scarper. Some drop oil, some drop acid, some drop alchemist's fire, some drop tanglefoot bags, some drop torches. They drop and they run. The entry to the next area of the warren is sealed. The PCs have to spend spells, time, and/or HP dealing with the traps, smoke, and fire, open the sealed entry to the next area, or retreat to the previous area.

To me, Tucker's kobolds have one job: protect the warren. It doesn't matter if they kill the intruders, they just need to be more trouble than it's worth to make their way through it. To do this they mainly have to stay one step ahead of the intruders. Make them reactive instead of proactive.

It's possible to be very well-prepared, but it's difficult to be prepared for everything. The kobolds have to do everything they can to be unpredictable.

[Blightedmarsh]

Kobalds are kobalds, right?

Q) What is large, scaly and famously associated with kobalds?
A) Something you really don't want to face at the same time (or imediatly after) as Tukers kobalds:smallwink: