Guide to High Level DnD - Non Combat Encounters?

[JKTrickster]

So I wanted to show some people a "guide" to High Level DnD. I have a solid idea for a variety of combat encounters throughout the higher levels, but what would be some interesting non-combat encounters?

At higher levels, I don't often remember running into a lot of traps because those seemed so..."trivial". What non-combat encounters exist at higher levels?

[Eldariel]

So I wanted to show some people a "guide" to High Level DnD. I have a solid idea for a variety of combat encounters throughout the higher levels, but what would be some interesting non-combat encounters?

At higher levels, I don't often remember running into a lot of traps because those seemed so..."trivial". What non-combat encounters exist at higher levels?

The same as ever. Diplomacy, environment, traps, etc. High level characters just have more ways of going about said things. Environment is rarely a threat outside extreme cases (e.g. Positive Energy Plane), less elaborate traps can be circumvented in a dozen ways (though of course, trap triggers can grow more complex with stronger magic, and the trap effects can replicate any spell so they're obviously bloody relevant) & diplomacy...well, there has to be sort of a power parity between the parties to prevent simple domination.

[Kelb_Panthera]

High level characters are generally the most apt to fall into the deadliest trap of them all; politics.

Incidentally, that's also my suggestion for dealing with high-level characters that can steam-roll any combat encounter you put in front of them. Make them deal with politics. It's a far more dangerous game and death is as much a release as a failure. (providing, of course, they stay dead.)

Naturally, I assume diplomancy is outright banned either via housrules to make diplomacy work properly or by throwing out the diplomacy skill altogether and actually making them roleplay the actual politicing.

[JKTrickster]

Ahh so I should bring in more magical traps? I think I have a good idea for that then.


What type of environment could I possibly use to challenge high level play that might not be necessarily high powered?

[Eldariel]

Ahh so I should bring in more magical traps? I think I have a good idea for that then.


What type of environment could I possibly use to challenge high level play that might not be necessarily high powered?

Planes tend to be fairly hostile to travelers though magic exists to deal with those things. Outside that, well, if they're low op, they might have trouble with wildfires and tornadoes, in general the more extreme weather phenomena (especially if they need to save other people from said weather too or stop it or whatever).

[Slipperychicken]

High level characters are generally the most apt to fall into the deadliest trap of them all; politics.


Large social skill modifiers and sufficient magic (even simple divinations like Detect Thoughts, not to mention Probe Thoughts or future-telling) will make their work much easier, provided other factions don't also possess similarly high modifiers. If the other side doesn't submit to such Divinations (and remove all magic auras first!), you can disbelieve them and probably use that as evidence against them. Glibness is still very hard to counter if everyone doesn't submit to truth-revealing divinations.

Also, if you're going to render the Diplomacy skill useless, you might as well let everyone know in advance, and let them re-allocate any skill points or feats they already invested into it.

[NotScaryBats]

Interesting terrain can be an added hazard to a combat. If your party flies all the time, a cave with a 20 foot ceiling removes that option. Line of sight blocking pillars and the like can allow sneaky bad guys to close on them.

Simple travel should no longer be an issue for a high level party -- that's for lowbies.

[JKTrickster]

Ahh those are all great ideas. I like the ideas of different planes and using extreme weather conditions - those are definitely things low level adventurers do not prepare for.

What type of traps are interesting/more than just "Roll to avoid damage"?

[Slipperychicken]

Simple travel should no longer be an issue for a high level party -- that's for lowbies.

Even at 9th level, you've got Teleport, Plane Shift, and all-day Flight. After which point our adventurers just sort of *poof* around the multiverse unhindered.

[Amidus Drexel]

Ahh those are all great ideas. I like the ideas of different planes and using extreme weather conditions - those are definitely things low level adventurers do not prepare for.

What type of traps are interesting/more than just "Roll to avoid damage"?

The most interesting (and occasionally frustrating) traps are the ones that activate mid-combat. A rune on the ceiling that heals the the bad guys (perhaps via a mass cure spell) every round, or a room with a low ceiling full of incorporeal undead and pressure plates that trigger mundane mechanical traps are some examples of that.

Traps that change the layout of the dungeon are interesting too, but be warned that your players may not want to backtrack a whole bunch every time their rogue misses a trap's trigger. Set these up so that they can bypass difficult encounters by avoiding the trap's trigger, rather than that they have to avoid the trap to move forward at all.

Encounter traps, from Dungeonscape. I can't say they're spectacular, but it's worth a try if you want interesting traps for higher-level characters.

[Gavinfoxx]

http://antioch.snow-fall.com/~Endarire/DnD/Challenging%203.5%20and%20Pathfinder%20Parties%201 %2031%2011.doc

There's a guide to D&D for ya, including stuff with high level play. Lots of combat focus, but not 100%.

[kardar233]

Large social skill modifiers and sufficient magic (even simple divinations like Detect Thoughts, not to mention Probe Thoughts or future-telling) will make their work much easier, provided other factions don't also possess similarly high modifiers. If the other side doesn't submit to such Divinations (and remove all magic auras first!), you can disbelieve them and probably use that as evidence against them. Glibness is still very hard to counter if everyone doesn't submit to truth-revealing divinations.

I once played in a political game in which the whole city that it was taking place in was covered by an epic-level Zone of Truth-like effect, with no save and no Glibness workaround. Some people don't talk, some people just tell the truth, but the real fun is in fooling people without actually telling any lies.

[Eldariel]

Even at 9th level, you've got Teleport, Plane Shift, and all-day Flight. After which point our adventurers just sort of *poof* around the multiverse unhindered.

Plane Shift, luckily enough, is somewhat restricted though by requiring a key to enter an appropriate plane. RAW be as it may, some keys are supposed to be difficult to acquire and they limit the party from jumping around entirely willy-nilly. Still, yeah, level 9 is when the party gains the ability to be anywhere at any time.


Ahh those are all great ideas. I like the ideas of different planes and using extreme weather conditions - those are definitely things low level adventurers do not prepare for.

What type of traps are interesting/more than just "Roll to avoid damage"?

*shrug* Simple options:
- Alarm (obviously dungeon needs a purpose for this to function but generally starts pre-determined defense procedures and calls all defenders)
- Long-term ailments (Blindness/Deafness, Baleful Polymorph, etc.)
- Summoning some defending creatures (all the spells up to Gate; e.g. a surprise Pit Fiend on triggering a trap)
- Temporarily (or even permanently, if that's in your game) disable magical enhancements (dispel at items & person, or anti-magic ray or such)
- Alter the terrain of the dungeon/whatever. Phantasmal Terrain, actual PAO or trigger a greater chain of changes.
- Destroy McGuffin/teleport it away/etc. if PCs came to get something.

Just few simple ones.

[Gavinfoxx]

At high level, assume that the pc's are doing scry and die on the macguffin in the dungeon. The traps are mainly a delay teleport effect, an alarm for the macguffin, and then a bunch of buffs for the guards directly protecting it, and a bunch of area of effect debuff/DoT that doesn't affect the guards (for whatever reason), so the PC's are teleporting into a VERY hot zone...

What, the PC's actually go through the dungeon?

At high levels?

Why?

[Eldariel]

At high level, assume that the pc's are doing scry and die on the macguffin in the dungeon. The traps are mainly a delay teleport effect, an alarm for the macguffin, and then a bunch of buffs for the guards directly protecting it, and a bunch of area of effect debuff/DoT that doesn't affect the guards (for whatever reason), so the PC's are teleporting into a VERY hot zone...

What, the PC's actually go through the dungeon?

At high levels?

Why?

There are actually important dungeons not under Forbiddance? That said, yeah, indirect entry should be expected; through the ground, from the roof, with summons, etc. Of course, these abilities are also abilities of e.g. outsiders so if they can bypass the security of the dungeon, the dungeon can't contain anything very important.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Large social skill modifiers and sufficient magic (even simple divinations like Detect Thoughts, not to mention Probe Thoughts or future-telling) will make their work much easier, provided other factions don't also possess similarly high modifiers. If the other side doesn't submit to such Divinations (and remove all magic auras first!), you can disbelieve them and probably use that as evidence against them. Glibness is still very hard to counter if everyone doesn't submit to truth-revealing divinations.

Also, if you're going to render the Diplomacy skill useless, you might as well let everyone know in advance, and let them re-allocate any skill points or feats they already invested into it.

For every divination that could be used in politicing there's an abjuration or illusion to counter it. Same goes for enchantments.

Combine this with the fact that the guy with no secrets to hide has every other nigh-soulless "public servant" gunning for him and everyone wants those blocks in place.

To ask a highly important person to strip away all of his magical auras is not only insulting, but you might just as well ask him to turn around so you can stick a knife in his back while you're at it, since all of his magical defenses will have magical auras. It's like asking a dignitary to the UN to go around just this side of naked. Not only will you get an automatic no, but you've already weakened your bargaining position by making the fellow less receptive to your offers. Better to make a show of scanning him to let him think you're unconcerned by his magical defenses, but nevertheless aware of them.

Magic makes politics more interesting, but certainly not simpler.

As for the diplomacy changes, I had assumed that such changes would be present from the start of the campaign but, now that you mention it, allowing the playerse to change their skill-point allocations would be reasonable if you chose to introduce such house-rules just before they became pertainent.

[Darth Stabber]

Epic level play gming for non-combat encounters: politics. The key to epic level politics is not "ensuring the outcome is the one that makes you succeed", and more "ensuring that all possible outcomes are to your benefit". If an epic bard can't make every negotiation into "heads I win, tails you lose" scenarios, he is a poor epic bard indeed.

The hardest way, yet one of the most satisfying, to play epic levels is a massive game of xanatos speed chess, leading to a massive 37 xanatos pile-up. Every ones has contingencies upon contingencies, in and out of combat, especially the high (30+) int crowd, for whom it is entirely in character to have this level of applied paranoia. The thing is that the level of power available makes the rocket tag of lvl 20 look like the cast sleep then use crossbow of 19 levels before that. The only attack you can't seem to do "never existed" paradox assaults, and even that may be possible, I just don't know how. If that is possible, be careful about grandmothers and unintended paradoxes. Now I want to run a game based on the last time war in Dr. Who.

This difference between standard D&D play and epic play is about the same as the difference between playing magic the gathering in vintage and playing t2, the rules are the same, but it is a different game. Not that the skillsets between D&D and M:tG are in anyway similar, just that the level play difference within the same ruleset is about the same.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Epic levels are virtually unplayable if epic spellcasting is on the table. It's generally best to disregard the entire epic handbook, save the "epic" uses of skills. Pretty much the entire rest of the book is nigh-unusable.

[Slipperychicken]

Epic level play gming for non-combat encounters: politics. The key to epic level politics is not "ensuring the outcome is the one that makes you succeed", and more "ensuring that all possible outcomes are to your benefit". If an epic bard can't make every negotiation into "heads I win, tails you lose" scenarios, he is a poor epic bard indeed.

That's what the Diplomacy skill is supposed to represent. If you throw it out and force players to do negotiation manually, it's like tossing them swords and having them fight wolves in real life as opposed to just simulating it with die rolls. Their character with 30+ Diplomacy is supposed to be able to do those things routinely, but the player himself might not be that capable and would probably fail at that task in a sad and disturbing way. This can be crippling on a guy who's characters entire strength is having large social skill numbers.


Basically, if you require the player to roleplay his Epic Bard's stats and fail him if he doesn't live up to it, you're gonna have a bad time.

[JKTrickster]

The most interesting (and occasionally frustrating) traps are the ones that activate mid-combat. A rune on the ceiling that heals the the bad guys (perhaps via a mass cure spell) every round, or a room with a low ceiling full of incorporeal undead and pressure plates that trigger mundane mechanical traps are some examples of that.

Traps that change the layout of the dungeon are interesting too, but be warned that your players may not want to backtrack a whole bunch every time their rogue misses a trap's trigger. Set these up so that they can bypass difficult encounters by avoiding the trap's trigger, rather than that they have to avoid the trap to move forward at all.

Encounter traps, from Dungeonscape. I can't say they're spectacular, but it's worth a try if you want interesting traps for higher-level characters.

I'll definitely be drawing inspiration from this - static encounters are boring after all!


http://antioch.snow-fall.com/~Endarire/DnD/Challenging%203.5%20and%20Pathfinder%20Parties%201 %2031%2011.doc

There's a guide to D&D for ya, including stuff with high level play. Lots of combat focus, but not 100%.

Good sir, I thank you!


I once played in a political game in which the whole city that it was taking place in was covered by an epic-level Zone of Truth-like effect, with no save and no Glibness workaround. Some people don't talk, some people just tell the truth, but the real fun is in fooling people without actually telling any lies.

Would you mind if I used this scenario? It encourages non-lateral thinking, a skill useful for any situation or level!



At high level, assume that the pc's are doing scry and die on the macguffin in the dungeon. The traps are mainly a delay teleport effect, an alarm for the macguffin, and then a bunch of buffs for the guards directly protecting it, and a bunch of area of effect debuff/DoT that doesn't affect the guards (for whatever reason), so the PC's are teleporting into a VERY hot zone...

What, the PC's actually go through the dungeon?

At high levels?

Why?

Actually I might even try to foster this type of behavior. Not many people know this off the bat.

So I might put time limits and a whole dungeon in the way - and force them to go AROUND it...

Then teach them how unreliable that can be :smallamused:


Epic levels are virtually unplayable if epic spellcasting is on the table. It's generally best to disregard the entire epic handbook, save the "epic" uses of skills. Pretty much the entire rest of the book is nigh-unusable.

I agree - I don't even touch epic spells :smallsigh:


That's what the Diplomacy skill is supposed to represent. If you throw it out and force players to do negotiation manually, it's like tossing them swords and having them fight wolves in real life as opposed to just simulating it with die rolls. Their character with 30+ Diplomacy is supposed to be able to do those things routinely, but the player himself might not be that capable and would probably fail at that task in a sad and disturbing way. This can be crippling on a guy who's characters entire strength is having large social skill numbers.


Basically, if you require the player to roleplay his Epic Bard's stats and fail him if he doesn't live up to it, you're gonna have a bad time.


Hmm this is true - both it is true that the Diplomacy skill is truly broken. But I don't want to force them to be "Masterful Diplomancers" who can talk a bird off a tree...

Is there no middle ground? :smallconfused:

[Gavinfoxx]

Is there no middle ground? :smallconfused:

At epic levels? When you are trying to diplomacy things with constant Mind Blank, and mental scores in the 20s and 30s, and hit dice in the 20s, and several ranks in all social skills? And several defensive social spells up at any given time?

Uhhh.....

You kinda need to be supernaturally competent vis a vis normal folk to be on the same level as these supernatural folk...

[JKTrickster]

Oh I meant high levels, not epic levels. Epic levels are a whole 'nother can of worms that I don't think most people would ever be prepared for.

At levels 10-20, I know social encounters become harder and harder to DM. Yet I am pretty sure there are games that are at those levels and still have some kind of social challenge.

I recognize that requiring magic is a definite - this is high level DnD.

But in vaguely lower power settings, is it viable to achieve a middle ground as a DM?

[Endarire]

Thanks, Gavin, for linking my guide!

Social encounters at all levels are either:
-Skill based, so follow the rules.

OR

-Roleplay based, so convince your GM you're more right than he is.

Sometimes, it's a mix of both, like if you, as a player, aren't that great of a negotiator, you can have your character do it instead.

[Darth Stabber]

Epic levels are virtually unplayable if epic spellcasting is on the table. It's generally best to disregard the entire epic handbook, save the "epic" uses of skills. Pretty much the entire rest of the book is nigh-unusable.

For certain values of unplayable. Assuming you can reasonably contain the worst abuses of the epic spell casting system (mostly dc mitigation cheese), there is a certain fun aspect to it. It's like playing vintage in M:tG (where all of the non-ante, non-silverboardered cards are legal), you aren't playing the same game at all, despite having the same structure. I don't play vintage (infact rarely play anything but draft), but it is a valid forma.

[Eldariel]

That's what the Diplomacy skill is supposed to represent. If you throw it out and force players to do negotiation manually, it's like tossing them swords and having them fight wolves in real life as opposed to just simulating it with die rolls. Their character with 30+ Diplomacy is supposed to be able to do those things routinely, but the player himself might not be that capable and would probably fail at that task in a sad and disturbing way. This can be crippling on a guy who's characters entire strength is having large social skill numbers.

Basically, if you require the player to roleplay his Epic Bard's stats and fail him if he doesn't live up to it, you're gonna have a bad time.

Diplomacy as written works for everything and everybody though and is completely and utterly broken. Modifying Diplomacy =/= making it useless, it just means not allowing Diplomacy to trivialize the game by making anything your fanatic follower in one standard action with no counterplay possible.

Indeed, every game where there are supposed to be relevant enemies needs to have Diplomacy modified; it even has the egregious "does not affect PCs"-clause (no other skill in the game does) so it's literally just a "PCs autowin always"-skill as written when it gets high enough.


Giant has a reasonable Diplo fix in place for instance.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I never implied that a DM should toss out diplomacy altogether rather than housruleing. I only suggested doing one or the other. Houseruling is probably more appropriate, unless you actually want to roleplay it all out.

I've been tinkering with a set of housrules to make it useable myself (I've been winging it in the past). At bare minimum, the DC's for changing an NPC's attitude need to have the same kind of circumstance modifiers that a sense motive check gets against a bluff. I've also been tinkering with the idea of making it an oppossed roll of some kind instead of a series of flat DC's.

[Slipperychicken]

I've been tinkering with a set of housrules to make it useable myself (I've been winging it in the past). At bare minimum, the DC's for changing an NPC's attitude need to have the same kind of circumstance modifiers that a sense motive check gets against a bluff. I've also been tinkering with the idea of making it an oppossed roll of some kind instead of a series of flat DC's.

Maybe it should be something like degrees of success, depending on how much you beat/fail the opponents Diplomacy or Sense Motive result (whichever is higher), reflects what terms you ended up with. If you fail, you can either choose an unfavorable option or reject it. If you succeed, you can choose a favorable option or reject it. Various other factors (preponderant/coercive force, trustworthiness) should grant bonuses or penalties.

For clarity, I do not support Diplomacy as written, it's highly abusive.