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View Full Version : Not putting spells in a vacuum



Maquise
2012-11-26, 10:46 AM
I was wondering how people felt about having spells affected by external circumstances. For example, having Conjuration spells be affected by the movement of the planes, etc. Would you be willing to play in a game like this if you knew ahead of time that such things existed?

Kelb_Panthera
2012-11-26, 11:06 AM
If it were well thought out I might be willing to give it a shot. I already track weather so the movements of celestial bodies wouldn't be that much more work.

Incidentally, the Dragonlance Campaign Setting has something like this. Since the magic of wizards comes from the moon gods in that setting, the phases of krynn's three moons affect wizards' caster levels just a bit.

hymer
2012-11-26, 11:09 AM
Well... I'd play, sure, but I'd probably want to see how the DM handled it before comitting to making a character that uses a lot of spells. I once played a cleric (2nd ed.) where the only spells I could count on performing as the spell description said was cure spells (well, those were house ruled too, but they did actually cure what and when they were supposed to). Anything else was subject to DM whim (or railroad), and I hated that.

It might throw off some rather fragile characters (I'm thinking of warlock for one), so I'd avoid those in any case.

Slipperychicken
2012-11-26, 11:49 AM
Sounds like an opportunity for a bad DM to screw your character over for the lulz. Might as well make spell effects dependent on how the DM's day went so far.

Maybe you can make a concentration (or Caster Level) check to resist or adjust to the planes/clouds/atmospheric pressure/whatever, to the spell can still have the effect you want. The DC would vary depending on the nature and intensity of the disturbance. Maybe some conditions would amplify spell effects, like summoning a bigger monster or making a bigger boom. Maybe the amplification might sometimes be too big, blowing up the building you're standing in. Obviously, the reverse could be the case too, making your booms resemble a child's toy, or just summoning something cute like a celestial cricket. You could make/modify entire random-effects tables based on this.


EDIT: This seems like it could be a good idea with a) a good DM and b) a system where magic is supposed to be random, wild, or unpredictable.

Thinker
2012-11-26, 12:32 PM
It would be fine if it was based on mechanics and not on DM interference. For example, at the beginning of the day the wizard could roll Spellcraft to see which spells will have their effects altered and plan accordingly.

nedz
2012-11-26, 12:49 PM
Sounds interesting, casters can be OP anyway.

I have done similar things, but only on rare occasions. Mainly geographic — dead magic zones, wild magic zones, etc. — but also as a plot device.


It would be fine if it was based on mechanics and not on DM interference. For example, at the beginning of the day the wizard could roll Spellcraft to see which spells will have their effects altered and plan accordingly.

Yes but Astrology or Knowledge(Planes) perhaps ?

Thinker
2012-11-26, 12:54 PM
Yes but Astrology or Knowledge(Planes) perhaps ?

Depends on the system.

Ravens_cry
2012-11-26, 01:08 PM
One of my favourite pieces of fluff from Warhammer Fantasy was the 'Winds of Magic', with different magical schools channelling the various magical forces in ways differed based on their properties.
As long as it's more flavourful than 'You suck today', I think I'd like it.

Kelb_Panthera
2012-11-26, 02:15 PM
Just remembered, eberron does something like this. The various planes in the setting's orrery cosmology have listed effects depending on whether the plane is in ascension, decline, or in-between. Generally, it's a small change in caster level for spells with a certain descriptor, though in some cases you even get free metamagic or impedence for spells of a given type. The windows for those events are pretty big though, measured in years for the most part.

locutus
2012-11-26, 06:22 PM
I say it needs strong flavor and unimpeachable fairness. My witch was, for a while, considering taking a feat that gave +- 50% CL based on the phase of the moon. Thats good because it's utterly predictable. It could be unpredictable, in which case it would be good to let the players know the dicerolls involved, and/or use spellcraft to figure out what the deal is today. If the plot requires a particular phase of the moon, preferably have a temple priestess publish this before the party knows the plot requires it.

Bt yeah, I'd be totally interested in playing it. I like the idea of preparing against another wizard/creature, and the pressure to attack in a particular window can add dramatic pressure.

Dust Bunny
2012-11-26, 07:25 PM
I was wondering how people felt about having spells affected by external circumstances. For example, having Conjuration spells be affected by the movement of the planes, etc. Would you be willing to play in a game like this if you knew ahead of time that such things existed?

No spells on a vacuum." So does that only exclude the Hoover, or is the Dyson also off limits?

"In a vacuum...?" Sorry, my mistake. :smallbiggrin:

We had something like that in a Shadow World campaign I played in the past, and in GURPS, and I see Dragonlance has already been mentioned. I recommend against having it be something that occurs without warning ... maybe have it be a bonus or penalty that the MU can check each morning when s/he gets up.

I also recommend against it being a complete "kill switch" for your mages. The occasional dead magic area (or even wild magic area, as much as I despise them) is ok, but having mages be useless for the day is a bit much.

Craft (Cheese)
2012-11-26, 07:48 PM
I actually prefer if magic is limited by things in the environment we can relate to rather than something abstract. Conjuration depending on how close the Abyss is to the mortal world is just arbitrary: Waterbending relying on the distribution of water sources nearby is much better.

Ravens_cry
2012-11-26, 07:53 PM
I actually prefer if magic is limited by things in the environment we can relate to rather than something abstract. Conjuration depending on how close the Abyss is to the mortal world is just arbitrary: Waterbending relying on the distribution of water sources nearby is much better.
But much, much harder to write playable rules for.

Craft (Cheese)
2012-11-26, 08:05 PM
But much, much harder to write playable rules for.

It's significantly easier if you go with a rules-lite, interpretive system rather than trying to go D&D style and write out exactly what every spell does and what its restrictions are.

Ravens_cry
2012-11-26, 08:52 PM
It's significantly easier if you go with a rules-lite, interpretive system rather than trying to go D&D style and write out exactly what every spell does and what its restrictions are.
Well, yeah, but even in a system like Ars Magica programming style magic, which I think would suit this better still, you'd need a system of various amounts of the classical element in question, with modifiers based on availability.

NichG
2012-11-27, 08:22 AM
Its not quite so hard. Just abstract stuff away. For instance, every environment is defined by its dominant element - that way its just one thing to track (is this place Water aligned or Fire aligned?). You can make it arbitrarily more complex though, and so the question is what is the simplest thing that does what you want.

For me, I'm more interested in sort of 'logical' modifiers. For instance, if all bags of holding, teleportation, and the like makes use of a certain plane, then taking a bag of holding to that plane should do something weird, teleportation on that plane might not really work, things like that. If a spell works based on an adjacent Ethereal plane, then it should stop working when you go somewhere with no adjacency to the Ethereal. Stuff that you could figure out as a player without having to be told directly if you understand the 'how' of your magic sufficiently well.

Eldan
2012-11-27, 10:03 AM
For me, I'm more interested in sort of 'logical' modifiers. For instance, if all bags of holding, teleportation, and the like makes use of a certain plane, then taking a bag of holding to that plane should do something weird, teleportation on that plane might not really work, things like that. If a spell works based on an adjacent Ethereal plane, then it should stop working when you go somewhere with no adjacency to the Ethereal. Stuff that you could figure out as a player without having to be told directly if you understand the 'how' of your magic sufficiently well.

Planescape had pages of explanation based on exactly that. What spells worked on what plane. Books on specific planes then went into even more detail. It was pretty cool. No light on Pandemonium. No fire on the elemental plane of ash.

One idea I once started developing was sligthly inspired by Warhammer. Both the fluff idea of the Winds of Magic and the way it works in the 8th edition table top game.

Basically, it goes like this: every place has a level of ambient magic. Casting a spell drains some of that ambient magic. Drain enough, and magic becomes impossible, though it regenerates slowly. Almost like spell points, but not inherent to the wizard, but inherent to the place. Wizard duels are very sudden afairs, because if you delay, your opponent uses up all the magic and your protection spells will fail with no way to restore them, other than running away.

This really only works if you build the entire system around it, though. And make it more or less impartial.

DigoDragon
2012-11-28, 09:32 AM
In the interest of fairness, perhaps creating an App that automatically tracks the celestial bodies/weather/moon phases in the world would be a good exercise for this idea. That way everyone can easily just plug in the game date and see how that day will affect magic.

Eldan
2012-11-28, 09:52 AM
I remember that the WotC site had a small program that mapped the planes of Eberron for any given day, and what magical effects they had. (For those not playing it: in Eberron, 13 planes orbit the material, and depending on how close they are, certain magics are stronger or weaker).

Geostationary
2012-11-29, 10:07 PM
Well, yeah, but even in a system like Ars Magica programming style magic, which I think would suit this better still, you'd need a system of various amounts of the classical element in question, with modifiers based on availability.

It needn't be that complicated though.

Desert/Lowest water content: -[penalty]
Near stream/barrels/etc: null
Near river/lake/suitably large source: +[bonus]
I'm On A Boat: +lots[bonus]

The main things to be concerned about would be the actual modifiers and the scale of the magic in question- would large-scale effects use different mods or areas (is the region temperate as opposed to "is there a river nearby"). You can resolve the region you're in with the GM if you're not sure just how wet things are around you.

Ravens_cry
2012-11-29, 10:54 PM
Ok, what if you are in a city with aqueducts?
Or a desert, that has lots of natural springs under the surface?
In a bath house?
A steam boat?

Dimers
2012-11-30, 02:38 AM
Why, yes, I WOULD enjoy playing in a more personalized gameworld where my character interacts with the environment and isn't just a bundle of numbers! :smallsmile: I've already complimented two of my current DMs for that sort of thing ...

HerrTenko
2012-11-30, 08:49 AM
Ok, what if you are in a city with aqueducts?
Or a desert, that has lots of natural springs under the surface?
In a bath house?
A steam boat?

-City with Acqueducts : Near Stream
-Improbable. If it has a lot of natural sources under the surface the region won't be a desert for long.
-Big Japanese Bath-house : Suitably Large Source; Common bath-house with tubs : Near Barrel
-A steam Boat : You're on a Boat. The steam doesn't matter, there's water all around you.

Vaz
2012-11-30, 02:09 PM
It's significantly easier if you go with a rules-lite, interpretive system rather than trying to go D&D style and write out exactly what every spell does and what its restrictions are.

Really? For every X cubic ft of water within Y ft range you get Z bonus? Sure, you'd get someone opening a Portal to the elemental plane of water and putting in a bag of holding, but hey ho. That is what the DM is for, no?

Geostationary
2012-11-30, 02:54 PM
Ok, what if you are in a city with aqueducts?
Or a desert, that has lots of natural springs under the surface?
In a bath house?
A steam boat?

The important thing is to determine the [semi-arbitrary] amount of water around you/that is accessible for magicking. Rate it [little/none]-[some]-[lots]-[more than you could ever use in a given situation], with some general guidelines/ideas as to what constitutes a given level of hydration or elemental saturation. If the water is tied up in some way (you won't let them magic aquifers, water in pipes, etc.), then the GM can bump the advantage up or down as needed. This obviously requires input from the GM and player, which can present difficulty, but so long as they stay fair, it shouldn't be too much of a problem- that and any advantage/disadvantage the player has applies to any similarly-aspected mage they face.

So this works if you're fine with adjudicating saturation levels. To make things easier, you can also go with "Assume advantage [x] unless circumstances dictate otherwise", so you don't need to recalculate except for when you chase your foes to the local reservoir or bathhouse. A lot of this also goes to how your magic works, so accessibility and presence of the element in question have to be determined on a case-by-case basis.

simple version- rate difficulty/bonus based on relative saturation/accessibility, as arbitrated by GM. player input must also be considered.

Alternatively, you could rate it by the scale of the act- anyone can do [x], but if you want to make it rain, you need at least [relative volume] water in the area; or you can do the larger things, just more effectively/better when there's more element to work with.


Really? For every X cubic ft of water within Y ft range you get Z bonus? Sure, you'd get someone opening a Portal to the elemental plane of water and putting in a bag of holding, but hey ho. That is what the DM is for, no?
Quick, what's the volume of the typical inland lake in the forgotten realms? How about water volume in the ambient plantlife? Don't know offhand? Hence why an abstracted system such as I propose is preferable to calculating exactly how much water is in a given area.

snikrept
2012-11-30, 04:06 PM
One thing I'd add is that any mechanic that relies on local phenomena to influence spellcasting, should not rely on phenomena that can in return be influenced by spellcasting. Otherwise you get clever munchkins with positive feedback loops powered by Create Water and such.

Planetary conjuctions are a good example IMO, because a spell effect that e.g. removes the moon would be unlikely to be known by a character at a power level where such things would matter.

Asheram
2012-11-30, 06:21 PM
I remember that the WotC site had a small program that mapped the planes of Eberron for any given day, and what magical effects they had. (For those not playing it: in Eberron, 13 planes orbit the material, and depending on how close they are, certain magics are stronger or weaker).

Here. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebwe/20041129a)