[3.5] Arcane spellcaster's epic feat options

[Viscerator]

So I am about to playing a 24th arcane spellcaster. There are two epic bonus feat slots. Wonder what epic feats are deserved to choose.

DM banned epic spellcasting. I have enough spell to cast per day and thus no need for improved spell capacity. I am considering multispell as one, any other suggestions for the other feat?

[Malachei]

Multispell, two times.

Improved Spell Capacity is nice for applying metamagic to 9s and other high-level spells that your metamagic reducers cannot take care of. However, you need several instances, and I find Multispell much more desirable.

[Viscerator]

Multispell, two times.

Improved Spell Capacity is nice for applying metamagic to 9s and other high-level spells that your metamagic reducers cannot take care of. However, you need several instances, and I find Multispell much more desirable.

thanks! I dipped tainted scholar and have couple of levels in incantatrix, making simulacrum/ice assassin to cooperatively metamagicize, thus skipped the improved spell capacity.

I am also considering twice multispells, it's indeed desirable. Arcane spellsurge + shapechange to choker + multispell*2, the charactor will have 3 swift action, two standard action totally for blasting, not even mentioning time stop yet. Anyway to get spontaneous spell capability? Since arcane spellsurge reduce spellcasting time, I need to figure out ways to spend out my two standard action.

[Arcanist]

Improved Spell Capacity 4 times, Improve Metamagic once and then give you DM the finger as you make a mountain into a city!

I'm joking of course... At Epic level take Auto metamagics, Multispell, Improved Metamagic, Ignore material components . I highly recommend the autometamagics and Ignore material components.

If you are using Simulacrums and Ice Assassins for god sakes take up Red Wizard/5 for circle magic and then just take over the world!

[TuggyNE]

thanks! I dipped tainted scholar and have couple of levels in incantatrix, making simulacrum/ice assassin to cooperatively metamagicize, thus skipped the improved spell capacity.

... and your DM banned epic spellcasting for being broken? True, but at this power level a little redundant.

[Viscerator]

Improved Spell Capacity 4 times, Improve Metamagic once and then give you DM the finger as you make a mountain into a city!

I'm joking of course... At Epic level take Auto metamagics, Multispell, Improved Metamagic, Ignore material components . I highly recommend the autometamagics and Ignore material components.

If you are using Simulacrums and Ice Assassins for god sakes take up Red Wizard/5 for circle magic and then just take over the world!

:smallsmile: DM is very strict with that. I considered red wizard, but DM homeruled that one pc can at most control two characters and banned leadership. That's very frustrating. :(

We are at 24th level and probably wont advance level anymore, so there are only two epic feats at most three epic feats if I take 10 incantatrix and epic incantatrix.

[Viscerator]

... and your DM banned epic spellcasting for being broken? True, but at this power level a little redundant.


I think epic spellcasting is still broken even at epic level since you can always mitigate it to 0DC thus costing you 0glod/0xp to homebrew any broken spells, not even mention the omnipotent MYTHAL seed in lost empire of faerun.:smallsmile:

[Psyren]

I have enough spell to cast per day and thus no need for improved spell capacity.

I'd say it's more for metamagic than just giving you more spells/day. You might need that Quickened Disjunction to strip some pesky defenses before launching your own attack, for instance. (Note that Disjunction can wipe out even epic spells, which many epic monsters have, and do so without a chance of failure.) You can also quicken high-level buffs during a time stop, allowing you two buffs per "round." Speaking of which, Extended Time Stop would be nice too.

[Arcanist]

I think epic spellcasting is still broken even at epic level since you can always mitigate it to 0DC thus costing you 0glod/0xp to homebrew any broken spells, not even mention the omnipotent MYTHAL seed in lost empire of faerun.:smallsmile:

Epic Spellcasting is only broken if your DM allows it to be broken.



This is the final step, and it’s critically important. The epic spell development work and reasoning must be shown to the GM and receive his or her approval. If the GM doesn't approve, then the epic spell cannot be developed. However, the GM should explain why the epic spell wasn't approved and possibly offer suggestions on how to create an epic spell that will be acceptable.

In practice a lot of TO flies out the window since most of it depends on the DM actually saying "Yes". Regardless I prefer using FeanMerc's Epic Spellcasting system (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=136711).

[Sith_Happens]

If there are any other full arcane casters in the party, then take Spell Stowaway (Time Stop).

[Psyren]

Epic Spellcasting is only broken if your DM allows it to be broken.

You've got that backwards; it's broken by default. The DM has to step in to fix it, usually by brewing a lot of ad-hoc factors.

[Chromascope3D]

Epic Spellcasting is only broken if your DM allows it to be broken.

You've got that backwards; it's broken by default. The DM has to step in to fix it, usually by brewing a lot of ad-hoc factors.

I think that that's the joke.

[Arcanist]

I think that that's the joke.

that was the joke. All spellcasting (epic or otherwise) requires the DM to step in to make it balanced. Otherwise PaO can only turn things into thing with a HD.

[Viscerator]

Epic Spellcasting is only broken if your DM allows it to be broken.


You've got that backwards; it's broken by default. The DM has to step in to fix it, usually by brewing a lot of ad-hoc factors.

I think either way to understand epic spellcasting works, because it gives all the way rights to PC, which might make PC over DM in a very brutal forced way. Think of people's attitude to nuclear weapon! It's just like the two sides of the same coin! I am now thinking the role of epic spellcasting is just for RP more than OP, as nuclear weapon more for threatening than making direct damages.:smallsmile:

[Viscerator]

If there are any other full arcane casters in the party, then take Spell Stowaway (Time Stop).



I like this feat! I once saw a DM using it to kill a pc. It's a powerful feat and could help somewhat prevent from enemy wizard's time stop as well

I am also considering tenacious magic(miracle), permanent emanation(AMF or consumptive field).

too many useful epic feats to choose!:smallannoyed:

[Malachei]

I agree Spell Stowaway is situationally very useful.

I'd still much prefer Multispell twice, unless you don't have metamagic reducers and other means to provide you with a fair number of quickened spells (and this level of play, you should).

First of all, Multispell helps you break the action-economy each and every round. As long as you have quickened spells, you gain the benefit of outmatching your opponent. Casting four spells per round allows for some nasty combinations.

On a side note: You've said you probably won't level much, otherwise, Automatic Quicken Spell would have been interesting in combination with Multispell, but you probably won't meet its Spellcraft requirement (30 ranks). Besides, there's a 3.5 nerfed version which appeared in Complete Arcane, so you'll might have to talk to your DM which version applies.

More importantly, Epic Level Handbook is 3.0, and integrating it into a 3.5 game means interpreting how Multispell actually allows you to cast more quickened spells. IMO, the most rules-consistent (and pretty powerful) understanding would be that Multispell allows you to take an additional swift action on your turn.

This means if you have spent your native swift action for an immediate action earlier, on your next turn, you can still cast one (or more) quickened spells. This is outstanding.

[Hirax]

I prefer improved spell capacity, personally, it makes it so much easier to metamagic 9th level spells to great effect. Ignore material components can be pretty handy, too. If you want to get 4 epic feats, you could do wizard5/incantatrix10/divine oracle3/mindbender1/archmage1/incantatrix+3, loremaster1. You get an additional epic feat from incantatrix level 13, and loremaster allows you to take any feat at all.

I wouldn't bother with multispell. Keep shapechange running all day, and keep yourself turned into a chronotyryn (Fiend Folio) all day. Chronotyryns take actions as though they're 2 creatures, easily allowing you to get out 4 spells a round with no feat investment. They have great stats on top of that.

[Arcanist]

I think either way to understand epic spellcasting works, because it gives all the way rights to PC, which might make PC over DM in a very brutal forced way. Think of people's attitude to nuclear weapon! It's just like the two sides of the same coin! I am now thinking the role of epic spellcasting is just for RP more than OP, as nuclear weapon more for threatening than making direct damages.:smallsmile:

The most balanced method of Epic Spellcasting use I've seen in play was in a one shot Epic game that an old DM of mine did. He allowed us to take Epic Spellcasting, but we had to tell him what we wanted the spell to do. If he said "No" we had to suck it up and be big boys about it. If he said "Yes" radical.

[Psyren]

that was the joke. All spellcasting (epic or otherwise) requires the DM to step in to make it balanced. Otherwise PaO can only turn things into thing with a HD.

As with most absolutes, I disagree. With standard spellcasting, the player can generally self-regulate without DM intervention, and simultaneously avoid breaking the game and being useless. Casters don't have to be played to maximum potential, and at most non-Tippy tables are not. And then there are casters whose potential actually falls into the balanced spectrum itself. A DM intervening to rebalance, say, a Shugenja would be unlikely to me.


The most balanced method of Epic Spellcasting use I've seen in play was in a one shot Epic game that an old DM of mine did. He allowed us to take Epic Spellcasting, but we had to tell him what we wanted the spell to do. If he said "No" we had to suck it up and be big boys about it. If he said "Yes" radical.

So... basically freeform?

[Sith_Happens]

So... basically freeform?

Or just the Epic Spellcasting system as written, including the clause saying that every epic spell you develop requires DM approval.

[Psyren]

Or just the Epic Spellcasting system as written, including the clause saying that every epic spell you develop requires DM approval.

Obviously, but even the seeds have limits. "Can I do this" followed by "sure" is not really using the system, it's circumventing it.

For instance, "can I make a scrying power that sees through lead of any thickness" is beyond even epic magic as written; it would require homebrew.

[Arcanist]

As with most absolutes, I disagree. With standard spellcasting, the player can generally self-regulate without DM intervention, and simultaneously avoid breaking the game and being useless. Casters don't have to be played to maximum potential, and at most non-Tippy tables are not. And then there are casters whose potential actually falls into the balanced spectrum itself. A DM intervening to rebalance, say, a Shugenja would be unlikely to me.

So I'm assuming at your table Polymorph any object can't turn a rock into a sheep because sheeps don't have HD in 3.5? :smallannoyed:

I'm just saying that magic, regardless of whether your DM is actually on you for chain gating Solars or letting you turn rocks into horses or anything like that needs some form of regulation. At some point someone is going to have to declare shenanigans and I'd honestly prefer it be the DM (whose word is absolute) then a player (whose word is clearly biased).


So... basically freeform?

No, actually viewing the approval stage as a rule instead of a recommendation.


Obviously, but even the seeds have limits. "Can I do this" followed by "sure" is not really using the system, it's circumventing it.

The epic spell seeds are limited because the designers figured "What more could a player ask for?" They didn't think "Hmm... What if a player wants to permanently have the Foresee seed up to play 20 questions with the universe?".


For instance, "can I make a scrying power that sees through lead of any thickness" is beyond even epic magic as written; it would require homebrew.

Just to be a jerk I'm gonna correct you on this and simply say the Contact + Transform seed to turn the lead into Iron. That unlimited range is really awesome if I say so myself. (It might need a special range, but this is highly debatable so eh). Most of the Epic Spell Rules as written are effectively guidelines for homebrewing your own custom super powerful awesome spell. so saying anything about the Epic spell rules being homebrew would be stating the obvious. :smallsmile:

[Psyren]

So I'm assuming at your table Polymorph any object can't turn a rock into a sheep because sheeps don't have HD in 3.5? :smallannoyed:

I'm just saying that magic, regardless of whether your DM is actually on you for chain gating Solars or letting you turn rocks into horses or anything like that needs some form of regulation. At some point someone is going to have to declare shenanigans and I'd honestly prefer it be the DM (whose word is absolute) then a player (whose word is clearly biased).

I agree completely that PAO requires DM adjudication; that's why I didn't bother bringing it up. Any spell that relies on qualifiers with no clear rules definition (e.g. "related") will of course require such intervention.

What I take issue with is the extrapolation of that fact to say that all magic requires DM regulation; this is simply not true. A spell like Expeditious Retreat or Color Spray tells you exactly what should happen. Even a computerized DM can run games with such simple magic. (And has - see NWN et al.)



No, actually viewing the approval stage as a rule instead of a recommendation.

The point is that, even for a DM that okays everything, Epic Spells have limits. Your own example of changing the lead to something else to scry past it only proves my point - the Reveal seed is powerless to do so on its own. Similarly, there is no way to decouple the saving throw from the Slay seed except homebrew; you could make the save DC nearly impossible to beat, but a natural 20 still undoes all that effort.

And while the epic system is highly customizable, it doesn't fall into homebrew precisely because of those limits.

[Arcanist]

What I take issue with is the extrapolation of that fact to say that all magic requires DM regulation; this is simply not true. A spell like Expeditious Retreat or Color Spray tells you exactly what should happen. Even a computerized DM can run games with such simple magic. (And has - see NWN et al.)

I figured it went without saying that Not all Spells are created equally went without saying, but thank you for clarifying that. :smallsmile:


The point is that, even for a DM that okays everything, Epic Spells have limits. Your own example of changing the lead to something else to scry past it only proves my point - the Reveal seed is powerless to do so on its own. Similarly, there is no way to decouple the saving throw from the Slay seed except homebrew; you could make the save DC nearly impossible to beat, but a natural 20 still undoes all that effort.

I'm sure that you will find that every Epic seed is "powerless" on it's own, which is why many Epic spells require multiple seeds to prove themselves effective. I've never seen an Epic Spell that uses the Slay seed remove the Saving Throw or the Spell Resistance. Any such use is clearly homebrew.

Magic is only as broken as the DM allows it to be. It's a Gentleman's agreement to not chain gate infinite solars as much as it is a Gentleman's agreement to not make Epic Spells with a DC of 0, whether you allow that behavior at your table is entirely up to you as the DM. From a TO point of view Epic Magic might look like it can solve just about everything, but in practice it really doesn't.


And while the epic spellcasting system is highly customizable, it doesn't fall into homebrew precisely because of those limits.

Wonderful so custom researched spells don't qualify as Homebrew? :smallconfused:

[Psyren]

I figured it went without saying that Not all Spells are created equally went without saying, but thank you for clarifying that. :smallsmile:


that was the joke. All spellcasting (epic or otherwise) requires the DM to step in to make it balanced. Otherwise PaO can only turn things into thing with a HD.

Clearly I needed to. :smalltongue:



I'm sure that you will find that every Epic seed is "powerless" on it's own, which is why many Epic spells require multiple seeds to prove themselves effective. I've never seen an Epic Spell that uses the Slay seed remove the Saving Throw or the Spell Resistance. Any such use is clearly homebrew.

Glad we agree.



Magic is only as broken as the DM allows it to be. It's a Gentleman's agreement to not chain gate infinite solars as much as it is a Gentleman's agreement to not make Epic Spells with a DC of 0, whether you allow that behavior at your table is entirely up to you as the DM. From a TO point of view Epic Magic might look like it can solve just about everything, but in practice it really doesn't.

My point is that the DM doesn't merely have to step in to tone down epic spells. He also has to step in to make them useful in the first place. Without ad hoc factors or a lenient plot, the vast majority of Epic Spells are far too impractical to actually use.


Wonderful so custom researched spells don't qualify as Homebrew? :smallconfused:

Huh? :smallconfused: Of course they do. There's no rules saying what you can and can't research. A custom spell can literally do anything, even moreso than epic spells.

[Viscerator]

I agree Spell Stowaway is situationally very useful.

I'd still much prefer Multispell twice, unless you don't have metamagic reducers and other means to provide you with a fair number of quickened spells (and this level of play, you should).

First of all, Multispell helps you break the action-economy each and every round. As long as you have quickened spells, you gain the benefit of outmatching your opponent. Casting four spells per round allows for some nasty combinations.

On a side note: You've said you probably won't level much, otherwise, Automatic Quicken Spell would have been interesting in combination with Multispell, but you probably won't meet its Spellcraft requirement (30 ranks). Besides, there's a 3.5 nerfed version which appeared in Complete Arcane, so you'll might have to talk to your DM which version applies.

More importantly, Epic Level Handbook is 3.0, and integrating it into a 3.5 game means interpreting how Multispell actually allows you to cast more quickened spells. IMO, the most rules-consistent (and pretty powerful) understanding would be that Multispell allows you to take an additional swift action on your turn.

This means if you have spent your native swift action for an immediate action earlier, on your next turn, you can still cast one (or more) quickened spells. This is outstanding.

Yes! that's the point! actually i am having the opinion that stacking action is more than everything!

Once used up immediate action, multispell could still grant you ability to swft cast is no doubting. But what do you think if multispell could give one more immediate actions? I didn't discuss this point with my DM yet. I guess he wouldn't allow such an interpretation.

[Emperor Tippy]

What's your pre-epic feat list and what do you want to mostly focus on?

Also how many feats do you have total?

[candycorn]

I lean towards Ignore Material Components. There are a lot of spells with high cost components, and being able to poo-poo that, is great. ESPECIALLY if you can get 9's in divine spells too. But even without, there are a lot of material components that gost 5000g or even more. Ignoring that can be good.

Also, Increased Spell Capacity is awesome. Essentially, even without the need to metamagic, it adds several high level slots to you, that can be used to fuel more 9th level spells. Since a caster's power tends to be concentrated in the higher level slots, adding 50-70% more 9th level slots gives you a lot of flexibility.

[Malachei]

Yes! that's the point! actually i am having the opinion that stacking action is more than everything!

Once used up immediate action, multispell could still grant you ability to swft cast is no doubting. But what do you think if multispell could give one more immediate actions? I didn't discuss this point with my DM yet. I guess he wouldn't allow such an interpretation.

I wouldn't, as well. I also think Multispell is well worth it if (as is) limited to more swift action spells. I rule it grants additional swift actions to be used for spellcasting only, essentially allowing a caster to use their (single) immediate action, while still being able to cast a quickened spell via Multispell, on the caster's turn.

[Wings of Peace]

Spell Stowaway: Celerity/Permanent Emanation: Something Rad

[Viscerator]

What's your pre-epic feat list and what do you want to mostly focus on?

Also how many feats do you have total?

I mainly focused on metamagica line. Most of feats are metamagic feat, maximize/twin/energy sub/energy admixture blahblah, 10 incantatrix grant 4, 5 silverymoon guard grant 2....roughly like this.

[Viscerator]

I lean towards Ignore Material Components. There are a lot of spells with high cost components, and being able to poo-poo that, is great. ESPECIALLY if you can get 9's in divine spells too. But even without, there are a lot of material components that gost 5000g or even more. Ignoring that can be good.

Also, Increased Spell Capacity is awesome. Essentially, even without the need to metamagic, it adds several high level slots to you, that can be used to fuel more 9th level spells. Since a caster's power tends to be concentrated in the higher level slots, adding 50-70% more 9th level slots gives you a lot of flexibility.

The ignore materials/Dweomerkeeper SU ability stuff are banned, because DM think it breaks the world's economy.

I like ISC but I dipped tainted scholar, very high tainted score make me enough spell slots.:smallsmile:

[Arcanist]

The ignore materials/Dweomerkeeper SU ability stuff are banned, because DM think it breaks the world's economy.

And he's allowing Polymorph Any Object? :smallconfused: Please tell me he is banning Craft Wondrous Items, Craft (Trapmaking), and self-resetting traps.

[Psyren]

Forget PAO, he's allowing Tainted Scholar :smalleek:

May as well run D&Dwiki at that point

[Arcanist]

Forget PAO, he's allowing Tainted Scholar :smalleek:

May as well run D&Dwiki at that point

I've always been torn on the whole Undead Tainted Scholar thing... I mean the book states that:


Creatures with the Evil subtype and undead creatures are immune to any negative effects from taint. They automatically have effective corruption and depravity scores equal to one-half their Charisma score, +1 for undead or +2 for outsiders. They take no penalties due to these taint scores, but they can use them to qualify for feats or prestige classes.

The only discussion I've seen about this was on an old dead thread (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=12925.0;wap2) on BG that came to the agreement that "Yes, they can have infinite taint, however it won't affect there spellcasting because the effective score overrides it".

Personally, I don't really have a stance on this since, HEY! I never intend to play a Tainted Scholar (not like I can find a DM willing to let me anyhow).

[Viscerator]

And he's allowing Polymorph Any Object? :smallconfused: Please tell me he is banning Craft Wondrous Items, Craft (Trapmaking), and self-resetting traps.

This one is allowed. But once you PaO, you will lose all of your race ability, like human's racial bonus feat stuff...So...many restriction:smallsmile:

[Arcanist]

This one is allowed. But once you PaO, you will lose all of your race ability, like human's racial bonus feat stuff...So...many restriction:smallsmile:

Craft (Sculpture) to make Ox statues and then stone to flesh. Take a small amount of dust and make an Ox or whatever that you can sell. PaO is cool because it allows you to make these items that aren't listed in the PaO rules that possess a value :P :smalltongue: I also believe that if you are in FR you can make Electrum which has the same value as Platinum (Not sure if I'm remembering something else... not sure).

[nedz]

Electrum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrum) is about 40% Gold / 60 % silver, so not quite as valuable as Platinum.

[Arcanist]

Electrum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrum) is about 40% Gold / 60 % silver, so not quite as valuable as Platinum.

REGARDLESS! You have something very valuable. Sell it. Another reason why PaO is so broken is that if you have moderate knowledge of chemistry and a significantly high enough caster level you can effectively destroy the world (but this can be done at lower levels if you really wanna be a jerk).

[Emperor Tippy]

I mainly focused on metamagica line. Most of feats are metamagic feat, maximize/twin/energy sub/energy admixture blahblah, 10 incantatrix grant 4, 5 silverymoon guard grant 2....roughly like this.

Replace all of your meta-reducers with Improved Metamagic, although you will need to use Inspire Greatness+Psychic Reformation to get the 30 points in Spellcraft that you need. Incantatrix already gives you the -1, so take Improved Meta four times and then everything but Persist and Intensify will only increase the spell level by 1 (0 with Arcane Thesis).

Improved Spell Capacity four times will get you an additional 8 spell slots (you do have 36+ Int by this point, right?), which is very nice and you can meta into those.

Permanent Emanation Widened Otiluke's Suppressing Field with the CL pushed as high as possible and tuned to Abjuration. How does it feel to be immune to Disjunction? If you have the feats grab a copy for each field and laugh as you are virtually immune to enemy magic.

Additional Magic Item Space is always nice. As is Automatic Still/Silent/Quicken if your DM is using the SRD rules. Multispell is also always nice.