Updated : 3.5 without LA : PAL 4 / CRU 1 / RKV to assess !

[baojin]

Hey everyone !

Ok, thx to everyone's help i've done the following :

Paladin 4
Crusader 1
RKV 10

Feats :
Extra turning
Power Attack
Extra Granted Maneuver
Martial Stance
Stone power
Sacred vitality
Divine Shield

Stances & Maneuvers :
Dev
Defensive Rebuke
Law Bearer
Radiant Charge
Iron Guard's Glare
Aura of Perfect Order
Aura of Triumph

Dragon
Mountain Hammer
Bonesplitting strike

Raven
White Raven Tactics
Order Forged From Chaos
War leader's charge
Clarion Call
Swarming Assault
Leading the Charge

Items :
+5 Blueshine Fullplate (i hesitated to take astral driftmetal but with sacred vitality i should be fairly ok...)
+2 blueshine heavy animated shield
Belt of Giant Strength +6
Cloak of Charisma +5

+3 Aurorum Everbright Holy sword of truedeath (the intermediate version)

Necklace of adaptation
Blindfold of true darkness

Vestment of resistance +4
Ring of protection from Evil

In terms of stats (at lvl 15 so with +3):

18 str
11 dex
14 con
10 int
14 wis
18 cha

Lemme know if i missed something :D

TIA

Original message :
I'm writing for your expert eyes to give me some inputs on my paladin build...

We are going to play an adventure that's usually played in tournaments, so i'm pretty sure it's going to be a big mess and we have only non-pro & crazy players (like going out in the woods to hunt with a lightning strike, in Midnight campaign settings ...).

For what i've heard, it's going to be an old school dungeon full of traps, drows and the like, even if it's in Greyhawk campaign settings.

So, i'm trying to build a Pal that's quite resilient, knowing that we got just basic books + the complete series (including magic items compendium) and Book of Exalted deeds.

Also, we can't do total optimized char like 1/1/2/4/5 and such, that's plain impossible... (rigorous DM...)

I've settled, so far, for :

1 half gold dragon (copper'd be better for acid i guess but well...)

6 levels paladin
6 levels Pious Templar (for mettle and all)

Gives me mostly 28 in STR, 12 dex, 14, con, 12 int, 14 wis and 26 cha (with items)

For feats i got the basic stuff : power attack, cleave, divine might, divine shield, extra turning + the requirements for pious templar

For Gear, i've thought about a +2 holy sword made of that thing that allows reforming it if it gets shattered (from BOED), everbright and with a crystal of truedeath (the intermediate one)

A mithril full plate +5 with +5 to reflex saves, blueshine

A +2 heavy steel shield blueshine & animated

A ring of blinking (might sound ridiculous for a paladin but it's quite a good defensive item)

A ring of protection from evil (cheap and not bad)

A cloak of charisma +4

Belt of Giants strength +4

Blindfold of true darkness (for invis, sneaks and such other mean monsters & npcs)

A necklace of adaptation (i'm sure we'll have plenty of flood / gaz and such traps)

I've hesitated with the gauntlets of arcane might as some UD got 15/Silver & magic, but i'm not sure that it's the best choice for 6k gp.

I can go up to 40 AC with this setup and got quite decent saves, the ring of blinking helping a little bit as well and mettle too, but i'm quite sure i'm missing key elements in this build...

So i'm taking any advice & idea !

TIA !

[Snowbluff]

Um... do you have any natural armor or deflection bonuses to AC yet? Diversity is important.

Drop your LA. It'll be a lot less messy.

Take Practiced Spellcaster and use Greater Magic Weapon instead of using a +2 Weapon. It'll save you some cash.

[ZaSeroulIs]

I always like some Hexblade (3) in my co.. paladin.
If you are going Pious Templar maybe just Hexblade 2 will be wonderful.

EDIT: Welp.. didn't know that :)

[baojin]

With half / dragon i have +4 Natural, the ring gives +2 deflection to AC vs evil.

About Hexblade, i can't switch classes, normally it's 1 base + 1 prestige...

Practiced spellcaster would give me a bonus of +4 in my level to cast GMW but i should have a +5 anyway ? Might not last for very long tho unfortunately :(

About the LA, you mean buying back the levels ? For what i understand +3 LA is bought back at quite high levels no (and the DM will not make any diff in xp distribution anyways...) ?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Looks pretty solid to me. You won't be steam-rolling anything with that setup, but steam-rolling encounters is lame anyway.

What'd you do with your special mount? If it's just sitting there on your char-sheet not doing anything, I'd suggest trading it away for the ACF in complete champion. A speed bonus, some darkvision, and a few little skill bonuses are better than nothing.

The dungeonscape ACF is better, but you didn't say you had access to that.

[Snowbluff]

With half / dragon i have +4 Natural, the ring gives +2 deflection to AC vs evil.

Only versus evil? Blegh. :smallyuk:

Practiced spellcaster would give me a bonus of +4 in my level to cast GMW but i should have a +5 anyway ? Might not last for very long tho unfortunately :(

GMW is hour per level. If you were a 7th level PT, you would have Holy Weapon, which gives +5 Holy to your weapon.


About the LA, you mean buying back the levels ? For what i understand +3 LA is bought back at quite high levels no (and the DM will not make any diff in xp distribution anyways...) ?

If that's the case, LA is looking worse and worse. I'll look into an alternative, if you are interested.

[docnessuno]

Your pious templar caster level is 6 (10 with praticed spellcaster).
Casting greater magic weapon would net you a +1 enhanchment bonus (+2 with praticed spellcaster), this bonus does not stack with the existing enhancement bonus of your weapons.

I'd definitly drop the ring of blinking saving 27.000 gp.
Mithral is not that useful on a charaacter with the standard 12 dex, and it's quite costly on a full plate, drop it to save 8.900 gp
The +5 to reflex saves doen't stack with the ring, drop it to save 8.000 gp
Downgrading the armor from +5 to +4 nets 16.000 gp

With the 58.900 gp you just saved you can:
Upgrade the Belt of Giant strength +4 to a Belt of battle with +6 strength [+32.500]
Buy an amult of natural armor +2 with +4 con [24.000 gp]
Buy s couple wands of useful spells:
- Cure light wounds [750 gp]
- Lesser restoration, 15/50 charges [1.350 gp]

[baojin]

Your pious templar caster level is 6 (10 with praticed spellcaster).

Buy an amult of natural armor +2 with +4 con [24.000 gp]
Buy s couple wands of useful spells:
- Cure light wounds [750 gp]
- Lesser restoration, 15/50 charges [1.350 gp]

Thx, i forgot tho, the NA stacks like dodge or not ? As i got some with the template already.

[Snowbluff]

Thx, i forgot tho, the NA stacks like dodge or not ? As i got some with the template already.

IIRC, Amulets of MA are Enhancement Bonus to Natural bonuses to AC, like the Barkskin spell, so it should stack.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Thx, i forgot tho, the NA stacks like dodge or not ? As i got some with the template already.

Amulet of natural armor enhances your existing natural armor. The stacking rules don't apply here.

For clarity, picking up an ANA would increase your natural armor to 6.

Edit: Ninja'd

[docnessuno]

Thx, i forgot tho, the NA stacks like dodge or not ? As i got some with the template already.

Except for specific ones (ie: dodge or unnamed bonuses) bonuses of the same type do not stack.

Half dragon gives you +4 unnamed bonus to your natural armor.
Amulet of natural armor gives a +X enhancement bonus yo your natural armor.

[baojin]

Aah, thanks a lot, sorry about that, so yeah +6 natural armor, not bad.

About the belt of battle, it gives move action or one full round (that can be a life saver indeed), they are the same price than boots of speed tho (but i agree that damn mages should be able to cast haste from time to time).

You think that the blink ain't worth it ? I find it quite powerful due to the miss chance (except vs ethereal), including direct spells, and the 50% reduced damage on aoe spells but i guess there are always wayz to overcome it (and a mage can cast blink).

Is there something absolutely vital i'm missing to resist traps ? Most common are poison / acid based i guess ? Evasion could be useful but it's 25k...

[docnessuno]

Is there something absolutely vital i'm missing to resist traps ? Most common are poison / acid based i guess ? Evasion could be useful but it's 25k...

You are a paladin, your way around traps involves high HPs, great saves and taking them in the face before your friends do.

On a more serious note, the best way to deal with a trap is to avoid it.

[baojin]

If that's the case, LA is looking worse and worse. I'll look into an alternative, if you are interested.

For sure, i took half dragon by default. Half vampire is interesting too but i like the STR of the dragon and immunity to fire & paralysis + natural AC. It's +3 LA tho...

If there are better suggestions for a paladin...

I originally took saint but it has been refused (it's quite an overkill for +2LA anyway).


Also, about the amulet of NA that adds +CON, i have the necklace of adaptation at that slot, which could be quite a lifesaver for tricky situations.

I could, tho, by default :

Drop the Mithril option (+9000), drop the gauntlets of arcane might (+6000) drop the greater agility property (+8000) along with my hat of disguise (cuz it sucks anyway) and i'd be quite close to a vest of resistance +5 item (as i've got none atm).

[Keltaris]

Drop the Half-Dragon, +3 LA is heavy.

Human or Aasimar are both good choices with respectively +0 and +1 LA.

[Gavinfoxx]

Drop the LA. If you want to be dragon-like, there are wayyyy better ways to do it. For example, Draconic, or Dragonborn Water Orc.

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7044

That helps you decide which templates are and are not worth their LA. Class levels are powerful. Way more powerful than most templates!

[baojin]

The problem is that PT after lvl 1 is soso at best.

As a half dragon versus plain human or draconic (with +2 or +3 lvls of PT) i get better AC, better ATK, better DMG, 2 immunities...

As :

Half gold dragon (3 lvls) +8 str +2 con +2 Cha +4NAC fire / paralysis / sleep immunity + useless breath. Still gives +4 atk and +6 dmg with a 2hand

3 levels of Pious Templar (7,8,9) :

+ 3 BAB, +1 saves (all), 1/- extra DR, 1 feat and 1 lvl 4 spell.

With draconic u lose the feat and the lvl 4 spell to have +2 str/con/cha (hence losing +6 str) and get saves bonuses instead of immunities.

That's a hard choice...

I'd do a frenzied berserker, for sure i'd drop the half dragon to get max prestige class levels but pious templar, honestly...

Maybe there are other better basic prestige classes for paladins for an old school dungeon, i didn't look too deep innit yet.

[Gavinfoxx]

The problem is that PT after lvl 1 is soso at best.

As a half dragon versus plain human or draconic (with +2 or +3 lvls of PT) i get better AC, better ATK, better DMG, 2 immunities...

I don't think you are doing your math right, son.

-Assuming average rolls, how are the hitpoints different? What Con do you have in either case? Show your work
-Are you counting in BAB?
-What about your various spells and class features that you get from higher level?
-What about saves from higher level?
-What about the fact that there are certain spells that work on hit dice?
-What about feats that you aren't ever going to ever get with level adjustment?
-What about power attack, and multipliers, and shock trooper and similar?

What I mean is... you aren't taking into account some things.

Compare, say:

Human Half Dragon Paladin 1
vs
Dragonborn Water Orc Paladin 4

These are characters of identical ECL... ie, if the GM says, 'Show up with a level four character', both are supposedly equivalent options where you can show up with either for such a game. Notice a problem with the first vs the second? The first is a complete glass cannon...

Also, READ THIS:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=207928

[Keltaris]

Are you dead set on getting mettle? Because in my experience the ability doesn't get used much...

Here's what you could do:

Human Paladin 6/Fist of Raziel 9

You'd get all the nice Paladin features plus the nice ones that the FoR gives you (Magic Circle against Evil always active, 7/day smite evil + special effects on smite evil, etc, etc...)

And you'd still cast as a 14th level Paladin, getting 4th level spells.

[Gavinfoxx]

Let me put it this way. I could show up with a Dragonborn Water Orc Crusader 15, and completely do everything your character could do, but do it far better. And I could have identical flavor (half dragon paladin). With Wild Cohort, I could even have a flying mount, or whatever. And I would be way, way, way more survivable and useful to the group...

[kardar233]

Let me put it this way. I could show up with a Dragonborn Water Orc Crusader 15, and completely do everything your character could do, but do it far better. And I could have identical flavor (half dragon paladin). With Wild Cohort, I could even have a flying mount, or whatever. And I would be way, way, way more survivable and useful to the group...

Keep in mind the OP is restricted to Core+Completes+MIC+BoED. That stuff is all out of the picture. Unfortunately, so is a lot of the good Paladin optimization stuff that doesn't end up making you a charger. Charging will still work; you've got Power Attack, Leap Attack and Shock Trooper plus Charging Smite. You don't have a good method of getting Pounce (as there aren't variant Paladins for the Barbarian dip and Lion of Talisid is a bit weird to be getting in) but that's not too much of an issue at this optimization level.

[baojin]

I don't think you are doing your math right, son.

What I mean is... you aren't taking into account some things.



Well, yeah, i didn't take the hit dices into account, 3d10 is still 3d10, depending on my luck, since we can't reroll. The maximum bonus of PA is different too, but the atk is still better.

About dragonborn it's in ROTD/Draconomicon and the water orc (besides being a ridiculous race, especially for paladin) is in UA, so both would be forbidden.

A (maybe) decent alternative would be to be "Drow" since we are underground for the MR, half vamp or plain human.

I'm still unsure bout the prestige class, knowing that the main goal of the master is usually to kill us... Mettle is useful (Kensai would save a lot of money, fist of raziel seems interesting but mostly for monks, too bad that tome of battle is not allowed either...).

[Gavinfoxx]

Does your DM consider any parts of the SRD to be 'Core'?

You need to find this out.

What about any of the web sources? Like stuff posted at the wotc webpage and such. For example:

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=513.0

[Keltaris]

Well, yeah, i didn't take the hit dices into account, 3d10 is still 3d10, depending on my luck, since we can't reroll. The maximum bonus of PA is different too, but the atk is still better.

About dragonborn it's in ROTD/Draconomicon and the water orc (besides being a ridiculous race, especially for paladin) is in UA, so both would be forbidden.

A (maybe) decent alternative would be to be "Drow" since we are underground for the MR, half vamp or plain human.

I'm still unsure bout the prestige class, knowing that the main goal of the master is usually to kill us... Mettle is useful (Kensai would save a lot of money, fist of raziel seems interesting but mostly for monks, too bad that tome of battle is not allowed either...).

Fist of Raziel is not a Monk PrC.

I suggest you give it a look.

(It's in the Book of Exalted Deeds)

[Snowbluff]

I'd stick to PT if I were you, and if Possible drop your Paladin Levels to 5, then fill out the rest in PT.

As for Template, why not Saint? BoED is allowed. It'll net you fast healing ,DR/Evil, Magic Circle against Evil/Globe of Invulnerability, Energy Immunities, bonuses to Cha, Wis, and Con, +2 to all your DCs, and some bonus damage against evil creatures.

Also, Wis to AC.

EDIT: Exalted feats:
Taking Gift of Grace, Nymph's Kiss, Sanctify Martial Weapon would be good options.

[baojin]

I'd stick to PT if I were you, and if Possible drop your Paladin Levels to 5, then fill out the rest in PT.

As for Template, why not Saint? BoED is allowed. It'll net you fast healing ,DR/Evil, Magic Circle against Evil/Globe of Invulnerability, Energy Immunities, bonuses to Cha, Wis, and Con, +2 to all your DCs, and some bonus damage against evil creatures.

Also, Wis to AC.

EDIT: Exalted feats:
Taking Gift of Grace, Nymph's Kiss, Sanctify Martial Weapon would be good options.

Yeah but Saint was denied :( too uber ! It was my first choice :D

Ok i'll try PT then, by taking holy warrior and removing paladin spells i gain 1 feat, then i get spells from PT, up to lvl 10 indeed (i missed i'm just pal 5).

[baojin]

Well, actually, good news !

We got more sourcebooks to use finally ! Dragonborn would be allright then.

Also, Tome of Battle is allowed, it seems a very interesting book but i haven't had the time to read it yet.

We also got all MM and races of stone / frostburn / sandstorm and the like, maybe some interesting templates or races could be found over there !

Many things to read now.

[Gavinfoxx]

What about SRD? Is anything in the SRD allowed?

If Tome of Battle is allowed... go Crusader, straight through.

Dragonborn Crusader 15. Your basic race can be quite a few different things -- but don't pick anything with a level adjustment. Done and Done!

Here are some handbooks for ya:

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2030
http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2645
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11534
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=181655
http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1281

[baojin]

What about SRD? Is anything in the SRD allowed?

If Tome of Battle is allowed... go Crusader, straight through.

Dragonborn Crusader 15. Your basic race can be quite a few different things -- but don't pick anything with a level adjustment. Done and Done!

Here are some handbooks for ya:

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2030
http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2645
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11534
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=181655
http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1281

Thx a lot, will take a look at these !

[toapat]

1: No +LA templates without buyoff
2: No paladin without Dragon Compendium/Legends of the Twins/Complete Champion/Complete Divine. Dungeonscape highly advised
3: No paladin multiclassing with a class that doesnt progress anything granted by the paladin, unless houseruled that it progresses paladin.

[baojin]

Well i took a quick look and i saw that another good option for a holy melee warrior would be pal 4 / cru 1 / RKV 10 (class lvl 15) ?

I gathered all info and our group would be like this :

- Me as a pal or holy tank somethin
- 1 Radiant servant of Pelor for heal bot
- 1 Malconvoker (wizard version)
- 1 Ranger (dunno which kind)
- 1 Rogue
- 1 Druid possibly or sorceress (still don't know what kind of dices to use to play D&D tho).

Nobody here's optimizing their char at all, so i'm pretty sure that we'll end up dead and dead again. The biggest debate for me would be survivability / battlefield control and Damage (in that order) between the pal 5 / PT 10 or the pal 4 / cru 1 / RKV 10.

I've also read about "prestige paladin" but it's in UA :( so, denied...

I also updated the thread title, as it's a new world of opportunities.

Also, sorry about all the questions, it's been ages since i played D&D 3.5... and never played lvl 15+ either.

[RoyVG]

Ruby Knight Windicator is a pretty strong PrC if you use it right, Boosting Charisma is most importants with this option, because you want to abuse the additional swift actions you can get with it. Getting some of those 'expend Turn undead' feats for damage/healing and you're set for life

I remember having a build that is actually a combination of both options. Lets see,

Draconic Human, Pal4(spell-less ACF, Extra Turning as bonus feat)/Crusader1/Pious Templar 2/RKV2. Level 9 (ECL 10)

*This build delays your RKV with 2 levels, but you get a lot in return.
*I took the Able Learner Feat to get the Hide ranks prereqs a bit easier.
*Going all Crusader after RKV should give you one level 9 maneuver (3 IL lower because of 6 levels non-initiator)
*I asked my DM if I could use the Battle Blessing feat on my Pious Templar spells, because it is basically the Paladin spell list. He said yes :D.
*The spell list of the PT is also slightly faster than the Paladin, and having RKV increase it for you als the way to PT level 10 casting if you take 2 levels.

Too bad he died by some strange creatures coming out of statues. He was replaced with a Warforged Artificier.

[Snowbluff]

Draconic Human, Pal4(spell-less ACF, Extra Turning as bonus feat)/Crusader1/Pious Templar 2/RKV2. Level 9 (ECL 10)

*This build delays your RKV with 2 levels, but you get a lot in return.
*I took the Able Learner Feat to get the Hide ranks prereqs a bit easier.
*Going all Crusader after RKV should give you one level 9 maneuver (3 IL lower because of 6 levels non-initiator)
*I asked my DM if I could use the Battle Blessing feat on my Pious Templar spells, because it is basically the Paladin spell list. He said yes :D.
*The spell list of the PT is also slightly faster than the Paladin, and having RKV increase it for you als the way to PT level 10 casting if you take 2 levels.

Too bad he died by some strange c

This I would have to agreed with. IF only we could not start with Paladin.

Since you do want Mettle 2 in Pious Templar would word...

Or you could be a Divine Crusader (The PrC) It would get you 9th level spells from a single domain. Casts off Charisma. Requires 7 BaB, though.

So like a Paladin4/Cursader2/RKV1/Divine Crusader1/RKV+7 (Prgressing the Divine Crusader's casting)

[baojin]

These would be interesting builds but it won't be allowed :(

Normally we have 1 base class + 1 prestige (considering we meet the prerequisite).

I think Pal / Crusader will work as they are both base classes.

[Morbis Meh]

You are neglecting one of the most important feats for a paladin/RKV build: Battle Blessing, this will make almost all of your spells swift actions which you can spam using the RKV ability so first round of combat you can buff yourself completely and still walk up and attack/charge whatever you're fighting.

[baojin]

It's true, i didn't take it yet, i might swap for it, i only got 5 spells tho but it could be definitely useful, depending how the group can buff.

That'd be giving up divine shield or sacred vitality, tuff tuff.

But Rhino's rush + War leader's charge = (4d6+13+PA+2+35) x 2 !

Edit : Rhino's rush is already a swift action. Don't think i'll take anything else for lvl 1.
That leaves 2 lvl 2 spells and 1 lvl 3, not that big of a deal to not cast em as switf actions (imo).