Magic: The Gathering XV: We Can't Stop Here, This is Thragtusk County

[tgva8889]

http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd293/Uncle_Festy/Planeswalkers.pnghttp://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd293/Uncle_Festy/AkromaBanner.png
All art by Uncle Festy. Worship him for his god like art skills.
Also, he takes requests. Sometimes. Usually he bites your head off if he isn't in the 'art' mood.

It's the 15th official Magic: the Gathering thread on Giantitp forums!
This is the place for everything regarding the game - rules questions, your own card creations, decks, reports, rants about recent sets/cards/rules changes, the storyline, favorite cards/colors/sets/characters/pros/articles, the absolute glory/terrible creation that is Elder Dragon Highlander Commander, or any other awesome Magical exploits.
And definitely don't be shy if you're new to the game or think about starting. We would love to bring more players in, and help you get started!

If you want, you can post decks and have them placed here in a list similar to the one below! Shoot me a PM if you're interested and I don't have my Ivory Mask.

Note: This is horribly out of date.
The Deck Gallery:


Mirrinus' "Norg'Creatures:
4 Cloud Sprite (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Cloud%20Sprite)
4 Spellstutter Sprite (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Spellstutter%20Sprite)
4 Pestermite (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Pestermite)
3 Thieving Sprite (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Thieving%20Sprite)
3 Latchkey Faerie (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Latchkey%20Faerie)
4 Ninja of the Deep Hours (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Ninja%20of%20the%20Deep%20Ho urs)
2 Okiba-Gang Shinobi (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Ninja%20of%20the%20Deep%20Ho urs)

Instants:
4 Mana Leak (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Mana%20Leak)
4 Agony Warp (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Agony%20Warp)
3 Rend Flesh (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Rend%20Flesh)
2 Condescend (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Condescend)

Lands:
4 Terramorphic Expanse (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Terramorphic%20Expanse)
7 Swamp
12 Island

Sideboard:
2 Mistblade Shinobi (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Mistblade%20Shinobi)
3 Echoing Truth (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Echoing%20Truth)
3 Negate (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Negate)
3 Remove Soul (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Remove%20Soul)
4 Peppersmoke (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Peppersmoke)

The basic strategy is to play evasive creatures with nice CIP abilities, then bounce them with ninja to replay them again, gaining tons of card advantage. Save the instant counters for things you can't handle, like high cost spells that Spellstutter Sprite can't hit, or board-wiping spells. The deck has lots of disruption and can usually play pretty aggressively. Nearly every spell can potentially 2-for-1 the opponent, giving me control of the game thanks to my strong card advantage. It's a very cheap deck to build due to being made entirely of commons, yet I find that it's still a solid deck to play in other casual formats as well. Its biggest weaknesses appear to be board-sweeping spells and pingers, so my sideboard is built to accomidate either of those threats. Peppersmoke handles most pingers and can decimate casual aggro decks. Remove Soul is also good against aggro, while Negate is for control decks that have been popular lately. Echoing Truth is to stop pauper storm decks based on Empty the Warrens, and the Mistblade Shinobi is for keeping midrange creature decks off balance.



Mirrinus' Pauper Mono White ControlDeck: Sarutabaruta (or just call it Pauper Mono-W Control)
Format: MTGO Pauper Classic

Creatures
4 Order of Leitbur (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?id=159188)
3 Shade of Trokair (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=shade%20of%20trokair)
4 Noble Templar (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Noble%20Templar)

Instants
4 Judge Unworthy (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Judge%20Unworthy)
3 Dawn Charm (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Dawn%20Charm)
3 Holy Light (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Holy%20Light)
4 Fire at Will (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Fire%20at%20Will)
4 Unmake (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Unmake)

Sorceries
1 Cenn's Enlistment (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Cenn's%20Enlistment)

Enchantments
4 Oblivion Ring (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Oblivion%20Ring)
2 Faith's Fetters (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Faith's%20Fetters)

Lands
20 Plains
4 Secluded Steppe (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Secluded%20Steppe)

Sideboard
4 Circle of Protection: Red (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Circle%20of%20Protection:%20 Red)
1 Circle of Protection: Black (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=circle%20of%20protection:%20 black)
4 Kami of Ancient Law (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Kami%20of%20Ancient%20Law)
1 Holy Light (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Holy%20Light)
1 Cenn's Enlistment (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Cenn's%20Enlistment)
4 Relic of Progenitus (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Relic%20of%20Progenitus)

(Note: the circles of protection were common when printed in 7th edition, so they're legal for pauper.)

Anyway, I realized that most decks for pauper are creature-heavy, due to the lack of mass removal. So I built a deck designed to crush aggro strategies. I run a wealth of removal spells, some of which can earn card advantage. My creatures are few, but are versatile and are great both early and late game, oftentimes utilizing my excess mana to the fullest. The Kami of Ancient Law in the sideboard is mostly to switch in against creature-light decks as an early beater, or to replace Holy Light against white decks. I figure that if a deck is playing white, it's likely to be playing white enchantment-based removal like Oblivion Ring or Temporal Isolation, so the Kami would be great at keeping my other creatures clear of these answers.

What I'm still considering, though, is the removal suite. I like Fire at Will for its potential for card advantage, particularly against weenie swarms like Slivers. Unmake is also great simply for the lack of the attack/blocker clause. The Dawn Charms are there mostly for versatility, as I can usually think of a good use for it. I'm not sure if I should be maindecking the Holy Lights, though. So far, they've only been useful against pinger decks, Empty the Warrens, and certain elf builds. However, given that Storm may be one of the best pauper builds, Holy Light affords me with my best chance of trumping Empty the Warrens. But most of all, I'm debating Judge Unworthy. On one hand, having 8 removal spells that require attacking/blocking is kind of restrictive; on the other hand, it's my cheapest removal spell, and my only removal option for turn 2. The Scry is oftentimes a toss-up; getting rid of excess land is great, but I've had instances where I needed to draw another land, but can't put a land on top of my deck with Scry if I want to kill a creature. I guess Temporal Isolation is a possible substitute, but it's pretty lousy in the Silvers matchup, which is perhaps the most common deck played in the pauper casual room as of late.

I'm still debating whether Relic of Progenitus should be in the sideboard; perhaps I could use more aggro options to switch in against creature-light decks, even though those tend to be fewer in number for this format.


Mirrinus' Countersliver
Deck: Pauper UW Countersliver
Format: Extended Pauper

Creatures:
4 Azorius First-wing (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=97101)
4 Bant Sureblade (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=188975)
4 Deft Duelist (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=175121)
4 Ethercaste Knight (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=179542)
4 Esper Stormblade (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=188968)

Artifacts:
4 Fieldmist Borderpost (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=183005)

Enchantments:
4 Temporal Isolation (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=106654)

Instants:
4 Mana Tithe (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=122324)
4 Mana Leak (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=83160)
3 Remove Soul (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=129699)
3 Hindering Light (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=177598)

Lands:
4 Terramorphic Expanse (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=129881)
7 Island
7 Plains

Countersliver is a classic and effective Magic deck archetype that seeks to win by playing a few cheap, efficient threats to take the early game lead, then using permission and light removal elements to prevent the late-game from coming as you press your advantage. The archetype is named after the original version, which played Crystalline Sliver (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=5134) as its flagship creature.

Countersliver is a good example of an effective aggro-control deck. Your creatures are weaker than your opponent's best aggro creatures, and your removal and card advantage suite isn't nearly as strong as a dedicated control player's. What you do have, though, is tempo. You have superior early-game creatures to all but the best aggro decks, and you'll be shaving pieces off your opponent's life very quickly while trying to maintain your board advantage. Countersliver especially likes to prey on slower decks. Compare a Countersliver deck to a normal permission control deck. Against a mid-range deck, both are able to stall for several turns with their counterspells. However, while the permission deck is just buying time to play a big finisher, Countersliver will have a guy in play by turn 2, and attacking the opponent relentlessly while stalling for time. In other words, it has a tangible clock in play, which will likely win before the late-game hits.

Countersliver is normally weak against fast aggro decks with superior creatures. However, my personal build contains a few elements that help that matchup. First is the high number of first-striking creatures. Bant Sureblade and Deft Duelist make formidable blockers, easily dispatching lots of popular aggro creatures with high power but low toughness. Deft Duelist is also impossible to burn out of the way, making it a particularly impressive defender. Of course, both are also rather nasty on offense as well. Another nice card in the aggro matchup is Ethercaste Knight. 3 toughness means it can handle many early-game opposing creatures with ease, and it can lend power to my offense without ever having to tap. My favorite starting plays with this deck involve Esper Stormblade on turn 2, followed by Ethercaste Knight on turn 3 with one land up for Mana Tithe. I get to swing for 4 points of flying starting on turn 3, which can lead to a turn 7 win. With Ethercaste Knight blocking on the ground and a slew of countermagic and removal, I'm likely to win a damage race with just those two creatures.

The key to playing this deck is to not overextend with your creatures, and to keep mana open for counters available as often as possible, even if you aren't actually holding a counter. Exalted lets you finish games quickly without having to play many additional creatures. I prefer my fliers for attacking while keeping the first strikers back for defense to win the damage race against aggro. Of course, if you have a clear creature advantage, by all means attack en masse! Just be sure to have countermagic on hand in case they drop a big creature or removal spell. The good thing about this deck is that practically every single spell costs just 2 mana or less (I don't count the borderposts, as I usually pay their alternate cost), which means by turn 4 you can feasibly drop another threat and still have Mana Leak or Remove Soul ready. The deck desperately wants to hit UW by turn 2 (an opening hand that can't do this should be mulliganed), but with 4 Terramorphic Expanses and 4 Borderposts, that shouldn't be too hard to do, at least in my testing thus far.

If you want a sideboard, I would recommend trying out Steel of the Godhead (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=158749). Against decks light on removal but heavy on aggro, this card is a total beating that almost ensures victory in the damage race. Just keep in mind that you can't enchant your Azorius First-wings or Deft Duelists. In such a matchups where I'd want Steel of the Godhead, such as against aggressive red decks, I'd probably swap out the griffins for Vedalken Outlander (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=185141).


Shas'aia Toriia's Orzhov Control
Creatures (13)
4x Divinity of Pride (http://magiccards.info/eve/en/86.html)
4x Graveborn Muse (http://magiccards.info/10e/en/145.html)
2x Shimian Specter (http://magiccards.info/fut/en/76.html)
3x Oriss, Samite Guardian (http://magiccards.info/fut/en/28.html)

Artifacts (1)
1x Sword of Light and Shadow (http://magiccards.info/ds/en/149.html)

Instants (4)
4x Mortify (http://magiccards.info/fut/en/28.html)

Planeswalkers (2)
2x Liliana Vess (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/121.html)

Sorceries (16)
4x Demonic Tutor (http://magiccards.info/al/en/13.html)
4x Vindicate (http://magiccards.info/ap/en/126.html) (substituting in a couple Oblivion Rings (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/34.html)until I can afford a playset)
4x Gerrard's Verdict (http://magiccards.info/fnmp/en/82.html)
2x Wrath of God (http://magiccards.info/10e/en/61.html)
2x Damnation (http://magiccards.info/pc/en/85.html)

Land (24)
4x Godless Shrine (http://magiccards.info/gp/en/157.html)
4x Fetid Heath (http://magiccards.info/eve/en/176.html)
4x Caves of Koilos (http://magiccards.info/10e/en/350.html)
1x Shizo, Death's Storehouse (http://magiccards.info/chk/en/283.html)
1x Eiganjo Castle (http://magiccards.info/chk/en/275.html)
2x Orzhova, Church of Deals (http://magiccards.info/gp/en/162.html)
3x Flagstones of Trokair (http://magiccards.info/ts/en/272.html)
2x Forbidding Watchtower (http://magiccards.info/10e/en/352.html)
2x Swamp (http://magiccards.info/ala/en/238.html)
1x Plains (http://magiccards.info/ts/en/283.html)

To start off with this deck, you want to either strip their hand away with Gerrard's Veridct or search for something good with Demonic Tutor. Once you have Graveborn muse in play, just start accumalating card advantage. If they try to attack, prevent the damage with Oriss, or block with Forbidding Watchtower. Finish off the game with Liliana Vess or Divinity of Pride. Above all, though, don't be afraid to Wrath often. With 4 wrath effects and 6 tutors, you can always get more.

Lastly, there is a soft lock in this deck. See if you can find what it is. :smallamused:



MountainKing's UBR Elemental Shenanigans:

Creatures:
Supreme Exemplar (http://magiccards.info/mt/en/53.html) x2
Mulldrifter (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/76.html) x3
Mournwhelk (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/127.html) x3
Shriekmaw (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/139.html) x3
Spitebellows (http://magiccards.info/mt/en/105.html) x3
Inner-Flame Acolyte (http://magiccards.info/jvc/en/41.html) x3
Stingscourger (http://magiccards.info/pc/en/107.html) x3

Artifacts:
Proteus Staff (http://magiccards.info/mi/en/230.html) x3
Cauldron of Souls (http://magiccards.info/shm/en/248.html) x3
Cloudstone Curio (http://magiccards.info/rav/en/257.html) x3
Armillary Sphere (http://magiccards.info/cfx/en/134.html) x3

Sorceries:
Heat Shimmer (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/175.html) x2

Instants:
Peel from Reality (http://magiccards.info/rav/en/61.html) x2
Turn to Mist (http://magiccards.info/shm/en/155.html) x4

Lands:
Basic Swamp x6
Basic Mountain x7
Basic Island x7

Sideboard (aka the Experiment Pile):
Thrumming Stone (http://magiccards.info/cs/en/142.html)
Coalition Relic (http://magiccards.info/fut/en/161.html)
Cruel Ultimatum (http://magiccards.info/ala/en/164.html) x3
River Kelpie (http://magiccards.info/shm/en/49.html) x2
Heat Shimmer
Mana Echoes (http://magiccards.info/on/en/218.html) x2
Dawn of the Dead (http://magiccards.info/tr/en/59.html)
Tar Fiend (http://magiccards.info/ala/en/89.html) x2
Footbottom Feast (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/115.html) x3

The basic premise of the deck is to use the triggered come into play or leaves play effects on creatures, repeatedly, in order to bring about an effective soft lock on the game through denial. This is achieved through taking two keywords abilities (Evoke and Persist)... and breaking them soundly over your knee.

The core of the deck is the interaction between Cauldron of Souls (the only card in the deck that gives creatures Persist) and Elemental creatures with Evoke alternative casting costs. In response to the Evoke's triggered effect, you tap Cauldron of Souls to give the Evoked creature Persist. It leaves play, then returns to play, causing its triggered come into play ability to go on the stack a second time, for no additional mana cost.

Example: If I evoke a Mulldrifter for 2U, when it comes into play, I draw two cards. Since I paid the Evoke cost, the triggered effect goes on the stack. I give it Persist via Cauldron of Souls, and when it comes into play a second time, I draw two more cards.

Example 2: The interaction between Spitebellows and Cauldron of Souls is fundamentally the same, except that the creature's ability triggers when it leaves play, rather than comes into play. However, when Persist brings Spitebellows back into play, it has a zero toughness courtesy of its -1/-1 counter from Persist, sending it cheerfully back to the graveyard a second time, allowing for either 12 damage to be done to one creature, or 6 damage to be done to two separate creatures.

The typical play of the deck leaves it feeling like its ramping a little slowly. Turns 1-5, you'll probably only have played an Armillary Sphere, Cloudstone Curio, Cauldron of Souls, and land. ***NOTE*** This deck likes its mana, and digging up lands with the Armillary Sphere is crucial.

Once turn 6 hits, however, you'll be causing some serious hurt, having surprisingly rapid, effective tools at your disposal during your turn. Mournwhelk empties your opponent's hand, Shriekmaw and Spitebellows tear down your opponent's creatures, while Stingscourger stalls out their creatures. Supreme Exemplar is the only huge beater in the deck, though clearing the opposing board, casting a Spitebellows (not Evoking), and then giving it +2/+0 and Haste via Inner-Flame Acolyte (if not +4/+0) can give you a suitable beater as well. Otherwise, your damage comes from lightweight, evasive creatures like Shriekmaw and Mulldrifter.

This deck isn't especially meant to play against terribly competitive players, but it *can* perform against moderately fast decks. The difference is that it moves slightly slower, and loses out on creatures, because instead of holding on to your Evoke creatures, you'll be playing them in to deal with threats on board. I've got a list of cards that I personally intend to use to tinker with the deck even further, but I'll leave the deck *as is* for the purpose of posting it. I want people to be able to tinker with it, and the deck *does* work well in its current form.

The deck also has a number of specific weaknesses, none of which should be terribly worried about. It's meant to be a fun deck... for you. It won't be fun for them. :smallbiggrin:


Maho-Tsukai's The Black Plague, a deck for multiplayer
Deck:
Lands:
3x Cabal Coffers (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=205421)
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=131005)
20x Swamp (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=259283)

Creatures:
2x Pestilence Demon (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=193431)
4x Stuffy Doll (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=116724)
4x Cemetary Gate (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=2914)
4x Reassembling Skeleton (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=226565)

Enchantments:
4x Pestilence (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=21149)
4x Circle of Affliction (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=126803)

Sorceries/Instants:
2x Consume Spirit (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=244249)
4x Diabolic Tutor (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=221519)
1x Demonic Tutor (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=202628)
2x Bubbling Muck (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=15179)
4x Dark Ritual (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=221510)
1x Culling the Weak (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=6085)

Description:
This is one deck that will make you absolutely hated in multiplayer. It's a mono-black deck that focuses on using the combination of Pestilence + Circle of Affliction (set to Black) to lock down the game by wiping the board every turn and kill your opponent(s) all at the same time.

This deck acts very similar to the old school W/B decks that pared Pestilence with Circle of Protection: Black and Pro Black creatures like White Knight. However, due to the printing of cards like Reassembling Skeleton, Stuffy Doll and Circle of Affliction white this deck no longer needs white to run properly. Mono Black now has enough cards to emulate the white cards that this kind of deck used to rely on and by using only black you have more mana to pour into your main win condition, pestilence

As for how the deck should be played, it's really a combination of combo and control, leaning heavily towards combo. As stated before, pestilence is your main wincon, as it can burn all players for damage continually. However, to prevent your own death, circle of affliction(set to black) is used in tandem with pestilence, the one life gained offsetting the burn from pestilence, while burning your opponent more in the process. As a result you goal should be to assemble this combo as soon as possible, using your defensively-minded creatures and removal from pestilence itself and twin consume spirits to stall out while you use your various tutors to assemble all the cards you need.

The real beauty of this deck, though, is that pestilence also hits all creatures, meaning that each time you burn your opponent your also wiping his board clean of threats, essentially locking down any deck that tries to win with creatures. However, pestilence dies when you have no creatures, so you have to play creatures that can survive the enchantment. Cemetery Gate has protection from black. Reassembling Skeleton can revive himself after pestilence wipes him off the board. Stuffy Doll is indestructible....and as mentioned before all of them are strong defensive walls that can stall for time if you don't have a pestilence in play.

As for the rest of the cards, most of them are devoted to gaining tons of black mana that can be poured into pestilence. One thing this deck tries to do is maximizing Pestilence by providing lots of ways to gain extra mana to pour into it. Dark Ritual is an old standby that's great for this kind of deck while bubbling muck essentially doubles your mana for a turn. This deck features the infamous all-star of black mana gain, Cabal Coffers which can make ridiculous amounts of mana, and Urborg makes this even more ridiculous. Culling the Weak is like a stronger dark ritual with a drawback....that happens to play well with Reassembling Skeleton.

Consume Spirit provides a "finisher" as well as a way to pad your life from the times you may have had to use pestilence to wipe the board without a circle of affliction to prevent it's self-burn. It can also double as removal in a pinch, too. Also, if you find that you just need something really big and scary to beat face with, Pestilence demon comes ready to serve you, and can double as pestilence #5-6 too.

The main thing you should remember in this deck is that while the combo is nice, you should not be a slave to it. If you have a pestilence in play but no circle you should not be afraid to wipe the board and eat some damage yourself. Losing a bit of life to end the thread of a creature hoard coming your way is a worthwhile trade, and one that could save your life in the long run.

Please include lots of info on how to play the deck so that others can partake in the fun that is whatever deck you have destroyed the Multiverse with or help suggest other cards to increase the awesomeness contained in your 60 (or more) cards.
This list has been maintained by Squark, tgva, Johnny Blade, Shas, and Duos in the past.
Also, if anyone wants to drop/update any of these decks, let me know.

[tgva8889]

Past topics since the first post takes up too much space:
Magic: the Gathering (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84019)
Magic: the Gathering II - Planeswalkers in the Playground - (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=111185)
Magic: the Gathering III - These Planes Are Made For Walkin' (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119615)
Magic: the Gathering IV: "Burn, Mana, Burn" as they used to say (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125812)
Magic: the Gathering V: Ophidians on a Plane (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7739504#post7739504)
Magic: the Gathering VI: This Thread Dies to Removal (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=149503)
Magic: The Gathering VII: Thopter? I Barely Knew'er! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=162760)
Magic: The Gathering VIII: We Should have a Mythic By Now (http://http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9816150#post9816150)
Magic: The Gathering IX: Gone Through Lotus of Threads Already! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10530604#post10530604)
Magic: the Gathering X: Deal X damage to target thread. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=203392)
Magic: the Gathering XI: When this thread has 50 or more pages, transform it. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=214460)
Magic: the Gathering XII: Vote Nicol Bolas for 2012! Discard their hands! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=226485)Magic: The Gathering XIII: What A Horrible Night To Have An Enchantment- Curse (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=237298)
Magic: the Gathering XIV: Instant Annoying, Just Add Hexproof (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=13485829)


List of MtG-related websites put together by Johnny Blades and others:
The official site. (http://www.wizards.com/magic/) From here you can reach:
The page for Magic Online (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Digital/MagicOnline.aspx), if you want to give it a try. Note that, while you have to pay/trade for cards, there are bots who give them away for free. I don't have any experience with this, but there are people posting in this thread that do.
The DCI (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dci/welcome), for organized play.
Gatherer (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Default.aspx), WotC's card search.

magiccards.info (http://magiccards.info/), another place to waste lots of time browsing through cards. It doesn't have the user ratings and comments of Gatherer, but lists the prices of several online vendors and, surprisingly, has more card images. The interface is also better in my opinion.

MTGSalvation (http://www.mtgsalvation.com/). That place has a lot of stuff, including a wiki, a huge forum, and many articles of varying quality. They also spoil all the cards of the next set well in advance, so this is where we'll usually get future cards from.

StarCityGames (http://www.starcitygames.com/) - they make you pay for much of their newer content, but what you can get for free is certainly good enough.

ChannelFireball.com (http://www.channelfireball.com/), where you can hear LSV and Conley Woods (among others) discuss Magic. Many articles and draft videos from the pros are posted here for free. You can also buy cards from this website.

Elder Dragon Highlander (http://www.dragonhighlander.net/rules.php), the official page. Always up to date and it has a forum about this popular variant multiplayer format as well. If you want to learn even more about the format, go here!

Le Bestiaire (http://draft.bestiaire.org/), an online draft simulator. It gives you some pretty odd ratings sometimes, but at least there is actual feedback.

Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com/), a program for...a lot of things, including collection management and online play. Supports more TCGs than just Magic. There's a freeware version available.

Cockatrice (http://cockatrice.de/), an other program for over-the-web Magic playing for no cost. Also has card images built in. Generally updates pretty frequently.

TC Decks (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/), where you can see which decks have tournament success. The decks are essentially named by the people who play them, and if you're looking for, say, Legacy decks, you'll soon find out that not all tournaments are really at Pro Tour level, but this is still an invaluable site for anyone who wants to keep up with the tournament scene.

Magic: the Gathering Source Forums (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/), which is great for people looking into legacy.

The Mana Drain (http://www.themanadrain.com/), more forums, this time for people looking into Vintage.

Tapped Out (http://www.tappedout.net/), a deck building and critique community. Build any number of decks and put them up for review/critique/comment/display. Or, keep them private. They also have pretty graphic representations of your mana curve, colour costs and colour generation.

http://www.highlandermagic.info/ The site for German Rules highlander. It's a 100-card singleton format, but the rules are rather different from EDH. They're more in line with the normal rules, and the banlist is made with a more competitive mindset in mind.

http://deckstats.net/ Calculates mana curve, compares color spread to manabase colors, calculates prices for the deck as well as some other functions. It can handle MWSDeck files and can also save decks pasted into it in the format.
GITP Magicgroup play-by-post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=181087)

Card Design Challenge Thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=233854)

Requested: A short commentary on sorting your deck, by tgva8889:
When building a deck, sorting your cards is very important. While the following advice applies mainly to Highlander formats (specifically Commander), you may find it useful in other formats.

The largest problem I’ve observed in deckbuilding is cutting cards. We all know that you have the best odds when you play the smallest number of cards. The difference may seem small, but every difference matters. When you’re trying to remove cards from your deck, you are trying to find the cards you don’t need. However, if your methods of sorting are inefficient, it’s very hard to see what exactly you “don’t need” in your list. I mean, looking at a random pile of 80 cards, which 20 cards don’t you need? You couldn’t know without knowing some aspect of those cards. Sorting allows you to classify your cards by some useful characteristic, so that you can tell whether or not you do have parts that are in excess of what you need or cards that you actually just don’t need.

While there are many methods of sorting, I think the first method of sorting everyone is most familiar with is Type Sorting. This is where you sort your deck list by whatever card types you happen to have. The most common is Land, Creatures, and Non-Creatures. While it is a useful rudimentary step, this form of sorting is fundamentally flawed. Most of the time, this doesn’t help you. For example, let’s take two cards that share a type: Sakura-Tribe Elder (”http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247176”) and Woodfall Primus (”http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=151987”). Now, obviously these are both Green creatures. But that’s where the similarity ends. One of these cards is a land-accelerator only pretending to be a creature for long enough to block, while the other is a huge 6/6 that eats a permanent. These things are not very similar. However, a sort by Card Type puts these cards in the same classification category. On the other side, Flame Slash (”http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=193648”) and Flametongue Kavu (”http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247368”) don’t share a card type, but it’s hard to deny you wouldn’t use both to kill creatures given the option. These cards would be in totally different parts of your list, though!

It is much easier to see a flaw if cards are sorted in a different manner. The manner that I suggest is the Function Sort. Sort all your cards by their intended function in your deck. For example, Sakura-Tribe Elder is a card you play for Mana Acceleration, so I sort it into the Mana Acceleration section. Woodfall Primus ends up in my Kills Non-Creatures secton. Both Flame Slash and Flametongue Kavu end up in my Kills Creatures section. This method allows you to see the cards by the purpose they serve in your deck, rather than by an arbitrary category. (You could sort your Lands this way, too, but I consider “Land” to be a Function, as lands are very special cards.) Some example categories pretty much every deck should be considering:
Win Conditions
Mana Acceleration/Fixing
Card Drawing
Library Manipulation
Kills Creatures
Kills Non-Creatures
Kills Lots of Stuff (Wraths)

Now, you can also condense those categories if you want. For example, “Kills Creatures” and “Kills Non-Creatures” could just be listed as “Kills Stuff” if it’s not really significant that you have a certain spread.

(I’ll add an example, but this is the bare-bones of the suggestion.)

(I still need to add an example to this.)


Also, please let us know if you want something in the first post added, edited or removed.

[Tectonic Robot]

So, like, basically, anyone know some real humdingers of landfall cards to go with a moonfolk deck?

[Mystic Muse]

Roil Elemental (http://magiccards.info/zen/en/62.html)
Hedron Crab (http://magiccards.info/zen/en/47.html)
Tideforce Elemental (http://magiccards.info/wwk/en/41.html)

Those are the best blue landfall cards I can find.

[IthilanorStPete]

So, like, basically, anyone know some real humdingers of landfall cards to go with a moonfolk deck?

Hedron Crab and Roil Elemental are probably your best bets, though Crab's only good if you're planning on milling them out. (or self-mill) Crab plus Soratami Mindsweeper sounds pretty nice.

[Togath]

Is tragic slip worth using in a aggro(or midrange) B/W deck?
It seems like a decent card, and I was thinking of combining it with doomed travelers and lingering spirits to both swarm the field with tokens, and if any of destroyed activate it's -13/-13 effect

[F0X7713]

Is tragic slip worth using in a aggro(or midrange) B/W deck?
It seems like a decent card, and I was thinking of combining it with doomed travelers and lingering spirits to both swarm the field with tokens, and if any of destroyed activate it's -13/-13 effect

To answer your question directly, yes, it is a good card in that type of deck because normally you will be triggering morbid a lot in combat. However, there are much less 1 toughness creatures in the current standard format, so that makes T. Slip much weaker.

On a side note, be careful with making a deck that is heavy in the token department. Cards like Detention Sphere, Supreme Verdict, and Sever the Bloodline really hurt that kind of strategy. Just something to think about when you make your deck.

[Mindfreak]

This is what I'm playing for FNM tomorrow, and I need to know what people think.
-Creatures-
4x Bloodthrone Vampire
4x Blood Artist
4x Gravecrawler
4x Diregraf Ghoul
4x Slitherhead
-20 Creatures-

-Instants-
4x Blustersquall
4x Essence Scatter
4x Think Twice
4x Tragic Slip
2x Downpour
-18 Instants-

-Sorceries-
2x Sign in Blood
-2 Sorceries-

-Land-
4x Drowned Catacomb
8x Swamp
8x Island
-20 Land-

-Sideboard-
2x Ghoulcaller's Chant
2x Pithing Needle
2x Appetite for Brains
3x Vampire Nighthawk
2x Killing Wave
2x Syncopate
2x Fog Bank
I'm thinking of ditching the Nighthawks in my sideboard for 2 more Fog Banks and another Syncopate, which the Fog Banks will help me more against things with flying than the Nighthawks, and are cheaper to cast.
The aim of this deck is to abuse a Bloodthrone Vampire/Gravecrawler/Blood Artist relationship. The perfect game state for me would be to have 1 Bloodthrone, 1 Gravecrawler, 1 Diregraf/Slitherhead, and 1 Blood Artist on the field, and just continuously sack Gravecrawler to deal damage and gain life, while keeping mana open to protect myself from attacks, Thragtusks, Restoration Angels, ect... with my Instants.

This deck is what I call: Blue/Black Burn, or "Screw the Metadecks, I DO WHAT I WANT" :smalltongue:

[Sith_Happens]

This is what I'm playing for FNM tomorrow, and I need to know what people think.
-Creatures-
4x Bloodthrone Vampire
4x Blood Artist
4x Gravecrawler
4x Diregraf Ghoul
4x Slitherhead
-20 Creatures-

-Instants-
4x Blustersquall
4x Essence Scatter
4x Think Twice
4x Tragic Slip
2x Downpour
-18 Instants-

-Sorceries-
2x Sign in Blood
-2 Sorceries-

-Land-
4x Drowned Catacomb
8x Swamp
8x Island
-20 Land-

-Sideboard-
2x Ghoulcaller's Chant
2x Pithing Needle
2x Appetite for Brains
3x Vampire Nighthawk
2x Killing Wave
2x Syncopate
2x Fog Bank
I'm thinking of ditching the Nighthawks in my sideboard for 2 more Fog Banks and another Syncopate, which the Fog Banks will help me more against things with flying than the Nighthawks, and are cheaper to cast.
The aim of this deck is to abuse a Bloodthrone Vampire/Gravecrawler/Blood Artist relationship. The perfect game state for me would be to have 1 Bloodthrone, 1 Gravecrawler, 1 Diregraf/Slitherhead, and 1 Blood Artist on the field, and just continuously sack Gravecrawler to deal damage and gain life, while keeping mana open to protect myself from attacks, Thragtusks, Restoration Angels, ect... with my Instants.

This deck is what I call: Blue/Black Burn, or "Screw the Metadecks, I DO WHAT I WANT" :smalltongue:

The problem is that one damage per mana does not a game win make (unless you have a LOT of mana to spend). Unless you can consistently push the Bloodthrones themselves through for damage, then this deck will be doing a whole lot of not much of anything.

First thing I'd do is... take a guess... x4 Geralf's Messenger. Four direct damage attached to a 3/2 that becomes a 4/3 after taking down a blocker is right up your alley. Best thing to take out for them is Think Twice, which doesn't really help your game plan at all.

Next, some of those counterspells should be discard instead. Better to neutralize threats early before you start wanting to tap out on Gravecrawler casts every turn, rather than having to leave mana open and rob yourself of multiple Blood Artist triggers.

Lastly, that's too many Islands when all your creatures are black and your combo requires black mana specifically. I'd say two Islands at most, and that's only until Gatecrash comes out and you have eight U/B duals and the rest Swamps.

[Togath]

heading to a draft fnm tomorrow.
Any cards other then packrat to look out for for my draft deck?
Skymark roc was pretty decent if i remember right, and strong mythics(that don't need a deck built around them) such as utrava hellkite and armada worm are pretty decent as well, correct?

[Mindfreak]

Absolutely not to most of your suggestions >< I could try working in Geralf's Messengers, because if I drop on and sacrifice it with Bloodthrone and my Blood Artist is out, that's 5 damage right there.
Further more, Think Twice does give me a lot. It lets me try to get the cards I need, because I can't just sit around and twiddle my thumbs. Sign in Blood also helps me achieve this.
I also need all of my blue spells. Blustersquall and Downpour lets me tap down creatures and push through with Bloodthrone Vampire when she's sacrificed enough Gravecrawlers. Essence Scatter lets me get rid of big threats, like Thragtusk and Restoration Angel.

My mana base needs to stay as it is, I have nearly as much blue in this deck as black.

Sorry for shooting down nearly everything you said, it's just...well...um, I kinda spent a while thinking up this deck to deal with everything in the metagame right now. Something to win with and deal with the everything that causes me worry at the same time in this format. I'm kinda protective ><
Kinda defeats the purpose of asking for opinions DX

And Togath, other than Pack Rat, you should watch out for Lotleth Troll, Vraska, the Unseen, Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord, and Wayfaring Temple. Wayfaring Temple, Lotleth Troll, and Pack Rat are all REALLY strong in draft in my opinion.

[Duos]

The thing is, Think twice and Sign in blood can be replaced with cards you can actually use, instead of spending mana to GET to the cards you can use.

Also, if you cut the Downpours for more permanent removal, it will serve you better in the long run. I might leave one or two blustersqualls to overload or something for an alpha strike, but honestly, you want more threats.

On drafts: Holy smokes, YES, Pack Rat is DUMB. You can with a match with nothing but Pack Rat and lands, I swear to you. It's a 1/1 that turns all your dead cards into gas, and it grows exponentially. 1 power to 4 power to 9 power to 16 power, etc. I would first pick Pack Rat every time I saw it, even over some other mythics.

[Togath]

Came in 8th out of 10 this time:smallsmile:, so I'm improving a bit.
Ended up running an Izzet deck(I did manage to get a mythic[vampire nocturnus] passed to me...but no one at the table drew many black cards).
At the end of the draft I found out that one other person at the same table as me went with Izzet as well, and the other two had decks with blue or red cards...I'm kind of amazed I managed to make an Izzet deck at all considering those aspects.

[dragonsamurai77]

I recently discovered Cockatrice, so I've been fooling around with a bit, mostly against myself.

Current main Standard deck:


Ambush Viper x4
Arbor Elf x3
Champion of Lambholt x3
Craterhoof Behemoth x2
Elder of Laurels x3
Garruk's Packleader x3
Kessig Cagebreakers x3
Somberwald Sage x4
Soul of the Harvest x3
Thragtusk x4
Forest x21
Garruk, Primal Hunter x4
Caravan Vigil x3

Sideboard:
Acidic Slime x2
Deadly Recluse x3
Plummet x4
Sundering Growth x4
Rain of Thorns x2

Thoughts?

[Sith_Happens]

I recently discovered Cockatrice, so I've been fooling around with a bit, mostly against myself.

Current main Standard deck:


Ambush Viper x4
Arbor Elf x3
Champion of Lambholt x3
Craterhoof Behemoth x2
Elder of Laurels x3
Garruk's Packleader x3
Kessig Cagebreakers x3
Somberwald Sage x4
Soul of the Harvest x3
Giant Growth x4
Forest x21
Garruk, Primal Hunter x4
Caravan Vigil x3

Sideboard:
Acidic Slime x2
Deadly Recluse x3
Plummet x4
Sundering Growth x4
Rain of Thorns x2

Thoughts?

*points at thread subtitle*

[dragonsamurai77]

*points at thread subtitle*

Was already very strongly considering it, but I'm not sure what to drop.

[Bucky]

Was already very strongly considering it, but I'm not sure what to drop.

Giant Growth, since it doesn't seem to do much in your deck.

[dragonsamurai77]

Giant Growth, since it doesn't seem to do much in your deck.

Changed, and so far useful.

[Bucky]

Also, make room for a couple of copies of Rancor in the 75 as anti-chump, and as reach on Ambush Viper.

[Togath]

Is it normal to be allowed any three packs for use in a draft?, My local gaming shop is having it's last FNM until january next week and I was thinking of using non RtR packs(so Innistrad, Avacyn Reborn, or Dark Ascension) if it might be allowed(I know they did allow two people to use m13 ones, but those are from the same block as RtR)

[IthilanorStPete]

Is it normal to be allowed any three packs for use in a draft?, My local gaming shop is having it's last FNM until january next week and I was thinking of using non RtR packs(so Innistrad, Avacyn Reborn, or Dark Ascension) if it might be allowed(I know they did allow two people to use m13 ones, but those are from the same block as RtR)

It's not normal, though it's occasionally a neat gimmick. You kind of need everyone to be using the same set of packs, though. Also, M13 isn't in the same block as RtR, and normally shouldn't be drafted with it.

[Lea Plath]

So. I'm working on a dredgevine deck and I'm thinking of siding http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=114909

I am running a few red mana sources (7 red mana sources. 1 card that can be tapped for any colour of mana and 8x fetches) so the red mana shouldn't be an issue, but it lets me kill stuff like Snapcaster, Cliques, Confidants, my own Gravecrawlers and do burn to the face. It also lets me empty my hand if need be so I can dredge with Lore or looting to get back my dredge stuff, then discard it again for more burn.

Opinions?

[Ninjaman]

@Lea Plath
It doesn't do enough in the deck, if you want to kill cliques, snapcasters and confidants run darkblast (run it, it is awesome).
But keep running red to play faithless looting and goblin lore and maybe cards like Burning inquiry.
Take a look at this list (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=1066735)

[Lea Plath]

@Lea Plath
It doesn't do enough in the deck, if you want to kill cliques, snapcasters and confidants run darkblast (run it, it is awesome).
But keep running red to play faithless looting and goblin lore and maybe cards like Burning inquiry.
Take a look at this list (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=1066735)

That is the list I am running off, just local meta looks to be less goyf, more tokens and weenies so big game hunter could be better replaced with the other card. It also gives me burn which is another thing, as there are some combo decks who I need to race.

[Ninjaman]

Okay i see, but it isn't very good against tokens, and for racing it will usually only deal like 4 points of damage.

[IthilanorStPete]

Okay i see, but it isn't very good against tokens, and for racing it will usually only deal like 4 points of damage.

Being able to spread out the damage and kill all their tokens doesn't strike you as good?

[Togath]

It's not normal, though it's occasionally a neat gimmick. You kind of need everyone to be using the same set of packs, though. Also, M13 isn't in the same block as RtR, and normally shouldn't be drafted with it.

Ah. Might as well ask though I suppose(the game shop owner is very friendly, and it is the last FNM there until the prerelease of gatecrash, so he might go for a non standard draft).
Also, is it worth buying more then one deck-builder’s toolkit box? It seems useful even if I get a few repeats, since I’m still getting 125 non lands for 4 dollars, as well as four boosters in addition to that for their normal prices.

[Xiander]

Ah. Might as well ask though I suppose(the game shop owner is very friendly, and it is the last FNM there until the prerelease of gatecrash, so he might go for a non standard draft).
Also, is it worth buying more then one deck-builder’s toolkit box? It seems useful even if I get a few repeats, since I’m still getting 125 non lands for 4 dollars, as well as four boosters in addition to that for their normal prices.

I have no real knowledge as to what kinds of cards are in those boxes, but my first thought is, that if you just want more cards to play with, go for it.

If you want to try building something specific you are better of going for boosters which you know contain something you want or need.

[Togath]

I might go for a second one then, I'm trying to build a R/U or mono red burn deck(since I got a very good mythic for that type of deck), and the deck builder's box had 1-3 copies of a lot of burn spells(pillar of flame, searing spear, one that damaged a player and everything that player controlled, and geist-flame).
Which do you think is more likely to help that kind of deck?
Innistrad block cards or RtR boosters?
I could get a 5 booster RtR guildbox for the same price as the deckbuilder's box, and could get the Izzet one I suppose(and RtR does open Izzet guildmage, guttersnipe, and Niv-Mizzet as possibilities).

[Xiander]

I might go for a second one then, I'm trying to build a R/U or mono red burn deck(since I got a very good mythic for that type of deck), and the deck builder's box had 1-3 copies of a lot of burn spells(pillar of flame, searing spear, one that damaged a player and everything that player controlled, and geist-flame).
Which do you think is more likely to help that kind of deck?
Innistrad block cards or RtR boosters?
I could get a 5 booster RtR guildbox for the same price as the deckbuilder's box, and could get the Izzet one I suppose(and RtR does open Izzet guildmage, guttersnipe, and Niv-Mizzet as possibilities).

My gut says RtR. There are so many wonderfull cards in that release, and the overload mechanic really helps burn decks, by giving them the choice between small effect now, or game-changing effect later.

The Innistradt block has a lot of good cards, don't misunderstand, but the support for burn/control in Red and Blue is better in RtR. Especially since Izzet is a thing.
Avacyn Restored does have some rather hefty red miracle cards though. Still Bonfire of the damned is really expensive unless you miracle it, Mizzium mortars gives you a similar effect and much more flexibility. Plus bonfire is mythic rare, versus mortars rare.

Disclaimer: this is my personal oppinion, i would not be surprised to be proven wrong.

That said, if you want to build a burn deck, i would by an Izzet box.

[Togath]

I'll probably aim for an Izzet box then.
Also, if I do end up with a second Niv-Mizzet, is it worth having two of him in a deck or only one?

[Xiander]

I'll probably aim for an Izzet box then.
Also, if I do end up with a second Niv-Mizzet, is it worth having two of him in a deck or only one?

It depends on what else you have in the deck, and what alternatives you have. However, having two of the same legend can be fine if he works in the deck.

I cannot give you the exact math, but the chances of drawing both early are so small that you should not worry, and having two could mean playing a new one as soon as your opponent finds a way to deal with the first.

Niv-mizzet is a fine card and since you will probably be playing casual, if i undrrstand you correctly, two of him would be nice.

Burn and draw on a 5/5 flying body is quite potent.

[Togath]

If I get a second of him in an Izzet box I'll probably keep him then.
I also just thought of something about the draft; even if the game shop owner is fine with odd booster types, would everyone using RtR increase my ability to build a better draft deck any?

[Mindfreak]

I'll probably aim for an Izzet box then.
Also, if I do end up with a second Niv-Mizzet, is it worth having two of him in a deck or only one?
Sometimes. Recently, in my Card Shop's Grand Prix Trial, a deck that made top 8 used 2 Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius. Though he was playing Grixis Control.

And is the Commander's Arsenel worth it? It has a lot of nice things and I want to get into playing Commander...

[Lea Plath]

And is the Commander's Arsenel worth it? It has a lot of nice things and I want to get into playing Commander...

It is for existing commander players, not new ones, I am afraid.

If possible, get your hands on the Theme decks for commander. Counterpunch is the most expensive cause of the Ooze, but the Ooze isn't so hot for commander. The WUR one is kinda useless so don't bother with that.

[Lord Seth]

It is for existing commander players, not new ones, I am afraid.It's honestly more for collectors than anyone else.

[Xiander]

Sometimes. Recently, in my Card Shop's Grand Prix Trial, a deck that made top 8 used 2 Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius. Though he was playing Grixis Control.

And is the Commander's Arsenel worth it? It has a lot of nice things and I want to get into playing Commander...

I don't know about your general area, but where i live i can sit down, look over my collection and come up with a playable commander deck from what i have. Not necessary a super hardcore deck, but one which wins at least 40% of games with most of my usual opponents.

My first commander deck has been tooled and retolled so mucch that it has become to powerful, for my own taste, there are only three players in my usual circle with whom i play it without fear of ruining my opponents game-experience.

To me commander is supposed to be a fun casual format, so there is room for random casual decks.

Also, if anyone would like ideas or comments on commander, I believe I can help there.

[Ninjaman]

Being able to spread out the damage and kill all their tokens doesn't strike you as good?

I must have misread the card, i thought it was single target like blaze, this way it might be worth it.

[Togath]

Just found a site with card lists for the intro decks,is it accurate? (http://mythicspoiler.com/intropacks.html) The Izzet one looks like it has some pretty good cards for an intro deck.

[Lea Plath]

Just found a site with card lists for the intro decks,is it accurate? (http://mythicspoiler.com/intropacks.html) The Izzet one looks like it has some pretty good cards for an intro deck.

Yeah. It isn't a bad jumping off point, but I am finding Izzet the worse of all the guilds to build around.

As a support colour, however, I find it to be wonderful. Izzet Staticaster, Mizzium, etc.

IMO the only guilds worth building around are Golgari, Rakdos and Selesnya as they have both the creature bases and the support to make their shticks viable. The other colours seem to be more "we make this deck better" or "we give you tools", like Izzet's Epic Experimentation or Mizzium Motars or Azorius's charm and own epic spell.

@Xiander: Don't suppose you can give me a hand with my EDH currently? Trying to improve it or turn it into Doran.

[Science Officer]

Well, post your EDH list, and maybe we can make some recommendations?

[Lea Plath]

http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/the-hordes-of-ghave/

I'm tempted to rebuild it as a Doran exalted type deck with more disruption but Doran doesn't seem good for multiplayer games.

[Science Officer]

I'd say that list looks pretty good, actually. The only card that I'm not sure is helping is Sapling of Colfenor, but it's not a bad card, just off theme.
Also, Explosive Vegetation >> Ranger's Path.
But since it's a Ghave deck, I don't think I can say anything that hasn't been said in that article series over on the Wizards site.

I don't see why Doran wouldn't be good in multiplayer.

[Giegue]

On the topic of commander....I am looking to make a new commander deck and I need help finding a certain card or cards. The deck is a R/W/B deck under Tariel Reckoner of Souls. I always like to make "gimicky" themes to my commander deck for the fun of it and since I have an unhealthy love of wrath-effects I decided to build this deck with as many mass board wipes as possible. The rest of the deck beyond the board wipes(which include many creatures that wipe the board such as Desolation Giant and Scourge of Kher Ridges) is mostly staples, turors/draw and lots of reanimation, most of which can target opponent's stuff as well. The basic idea of the deck is to continually nuke the board and then loot your opponent's graveyards and take the stuff you blew up as your own.

However, I am looking for a specific card or cards for this deck. Since I blow up the field, A LOT, I would like to know if there is a card that makes all my creatures indestructible. Darksteel Forge + Artifact creatures is NOT what I am looking for since this deck has hardly any artifact creatures.(and many of it's fatties double as board wipes themselves.) I already know about stuff like That Which was Taken, which can make individual creatures indestructible. What I am looking for is blanket indestructibility for all my creatures, not just for a single one. If no such card exists that's fine. However, if there is one out there I would like to know what it is.

[Mystic Muse]

Avacyn, angel of hope. (http://magiccards.info/avr/en/6.html)

EVERYTHING of yours is indestructible.

[Giegue]

Interesting. May warrant me running Armageddon and Desolation angel as well, just to be mean. Also works well with stuff like wildfire and Jokalhops(however the heck you spell that)

[Lea Plath]

@Science: Thanks, I'll nab that.

And Doran is basically I can kill one of you, per turn. It is a much more focused deck that doesn't even have the ability to at least end the game in one turn.

@Mystic muse: I did consider Avacyn but problem is she only really helps in a good board state (otherwise they just path to exile her or sumin), and I can't tutor her out easily.

[Giegue]

I think that was directed at me, actually. I asked for a card that provides blanket indestructibility since I'm planing on building an EDH deck with the design philosophy of "how many mass board wipes can I possibly fit into one commander deck without making it totally suck?"

Also, I'm not quite sure which commander to use for this I was thinking of using Tarel, Reckoner of Souls for her reanimation effect(as the deck seeks to rob opposing graves after wiping the board so much.) but her effect IS random, and would take a lot of building around to make good. My other choice, Oros the Avenger doesn't reanimate but is a board wipe on a stick(kinda) and since the point of my deck is to just keep nuking the field Oros does kinda embody that, and is a dragon which is always a plus.

[Mystic Muse]

@Mystic muse: I did consider Avacyn but problem is she only really helps in a good board state (otherwise they just path to exile her or sumin), and I can't tutor her out easily.

Yeah, that was directed at Giegue.

For your deck, any relevant Ravnica Shockland would be useful, along with Marsh Flats and Verdant catacombs. I would also suggest a tutor effect of some sort in case they tuck something you want (Demonic tutor is one of the best, Tooth and Nail isn't half-bad for creatures, Green Sun's zenith is great). I think I'd take out martial law (detaining a single creature in commander might not be that relevant), and I'd look for less restricted removal than Doom Blade and go for the throat. Rend flesh and Eyeblight's ending are good budget options, and Swords to Plowshares is a pretty good white option.

I'm not too sure about Temple of the False God, to be perfectly honest. You'd know better than I would though.

If you could pick up a Mirari's wake, I think that could be really helpful.

[Togath]

Yeah. It isn't a bad jumping off point, but I am finding Izzet the worse of all the guilds to build around.

As a support colour, however, I find it to be wonderful. Izzet Staticaster, Mizzium, etc.

IMO the only guilds worth building around are Golgari, Rakdos and Selesnya as they have both the creature bases and the support to make their shticks viable. The other colours seem to be more "we make this deck better" or "we give you tools", like Izzet's Epic Experimentation or Mizzium Motars or Azorius's charm and own epic spell.


Aye, I understand what you mean. I was mostly going for them to help boost a burn/control focused red deck or generic R/U. The biggest things that drew my eye to that specific intro deck were the red spells(I've had bad luck with actually drawing any from boosters), guttersnipe, goblin electromancer. teleportal and bluster squall look they they could be decent as well, either together with the others, or in a blue control deck.
It'll be interesting to see what they go for for R/W and G/R in gatecrash.

[Sith_Happens]

http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/the-hordes-of-ghave/

I'm tempted to rebuild it as a Doran exalted type deck with more disruption but Doran doesn't seem good for multiplayer games.

Needs more Corpsejack Menace.

[Science Officer]

However, I am looking for a specific card or cards for this deck. Since I blow up the field, A LOT, I would like to know if there is a card that makes all my creatures indestructible. Darksteel Forge + Artifact creatures is NOT what I am looking for since this deck has hardly any artifact creatures.(and many of it's fatties double as board wipes themselves.) I already know about stuff like That Which was Taken, which can make individual creatures indestructible. What I am looking for is blanket indestructibility for all my creatures, not just for a single one. If no such card exists that's fine. However, if there is one out there I would like to know what it is.

Eldrazi Monument makes all your creatures indestructible, at the cost of one a turn
Rootborn Defences makes them indestructible, for a turn
That Which Was Taken makes- oh, I see you've already heard of it.


Twilight Shepherd is also good with wraths, I guess.

[Xiander]

@Xiander: Don't suppose you can give me a hand with my EDH currently? Trying to improve it or turn it into Doran.

Sorry for respond time.

Your deck is wonderfully scary, it has a lot of synergy, and can work even if people decide to kill your commander on sight.

Have you played it? It can be really hard to judge a deck without playing it.

I have a few suggestions for cards that might fit the theme:

Entrat the angels (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247426)
x 4/4 flying Angels is cool all by it self, and with the way mulligans work in commander, miracle cards really gets you kick for your buck. Downside is you have decent card-draw, so you might have to shell out the full mana price.

Korozda guildmage (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=270364)
You like having many creatures which you give small to medium collective boosts. This lets you trade your big ones for small ones which all get your board-wide boosts.

Vitu-Ghazi guildmage (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=270346)
A combined token-maker and populator? It is a good card if you like centaurs.

Selesnya guildmage (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247386)
Again, a card that lets you make tokens and give board-wide boosts. Very usable.


My biggest problem with this, is I am hard pressed to say what you should drop from the deck. Only three cards strike me as replaceable, and they are all okay cards, so you might disagree. Fertilid, sapling of golfenor and leyline of vitality.



I hope you can use my suggestions, and please do argue with me :smallwink:

[Togath]

Next week is commander at my game shop... are either of these(Niv-Mizzet and Isperia) decent for a deck of that format? You do need to have your commander be a legendary, correct?

[Mystic Muse]

Next week is commander at my game shop... are either of these(Niv-Mizzet and Isperia) decent for a deck of that format? You do need to have your commander be a legendary, correct?

You do need to have your commander be a legendary, yes. Niv-mizzet would probably be better, depending on which version of each you're talking about. I advise against any instant win, or infinite combos, as they tend to be frowned upon in commander.

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=291478 This is pretty nice, if you want to learn a bit more in general, and what is generally frowned upon.

[Mindfreak]

So I've been doing some thinking. I love zombies but...zombies isn't so good right now.
So...this is what I've thought of:
Blue Mill:

-Creatures-
4 Fog Bank
4 Jace's Phantasm
4 Hover Barrier

-Instants-
4 Thought Scour
4 Dissipate
4 Negate
4 Syncopate
4 Dream Twist

-Sorceries-
4 Increasing Confusion
4 Mind Sculpt

-Planeswalkers-
2 Jace, Memory Adept

-Lands-
20 Island

So...opinions? Yes, I know, Mill is the worst way to win...

[Lord Seth]

You could try Turbofog if you want to mill someone to death.

[Togath]

You do need to have your commander be a legendary, yes. Niv-mizzet would probably be better, depending on which version of each you're talking about. I advise against any instant win, or infinite combos, as they tend to be frowned upon in commander.

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=291478 This is pretty nice, if you want to learn a bit more in general, and what is generally frowned upon.

The Niv-Mizzet I have is the RtR one (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=253626)(you may draw when you deal damage, and can deal 1 damage using 1R & 1U), so it's probably about even with RtR Isperia.
Also, is the part here (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/TCG/Resources.aspx?x=mtg/tcg/resources/formats-casual) about not having any cards that share names correct?
Looking at the old Niv-Mizzet, it could be a good combo with the new one, I'll probably keep my eye out for it, since it's only a rare in it's original two sets.

[Mystic Muse]

The Niv-Mizzet I have is the RtR one (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=253626)(you may draw when you deal damage, and can deal 1 damage using 1R & 1U), so it's probably about even with RtR Isperia.
Also, is the part here (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/TCG/Resources.aspx?x=mtg/tcg/resources/formats-casual) about not having any cards that share names correct?

Yes, in Commander, you are only allowed to have one of any card that is not a basic land. It will probably vary from group to group whether those rules, or Relentless Rats rules override the other (By normal Commander rules, I believe it's been established that the singleton rule overrides the "Can have any number of cards named Relentless Rats in a deck" rule.

Side note: Anybody else ever go looking through cards for a deck and think to yourself "Oh, even if this card is old, it can't be worth that much." and then you find out it's actually a several hundred dollar card?

[Mindfreak]

You could try Turbofog if you want to mill someone to death.
If Ponder and Mana Leak were legal in standard I would do TurboFog. But since it isn't, I'll stick with what I've got.
Though I could put Delver in this, since I have so many instants and Sorceries.

[tgva8889]

If Ponder and Mana Leak were legal in standard I would do TurboFog. But since it isn't, I'll stick with what I've got.
Though I could put Delver in this, since I have so many instants and Sorceries.

Turbo Fog (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/rc/220) isn't actually that ridiculous as of right now.

[Togath]

I've finished my comander deck, any thoughts on cards that could improve it/ones I should remove?

Commander: Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius(R/U 6cmc 5/5 flying, with the ability to burn two mana to deal damage to a player)

Non-lands(56);
Instants:
Counterflux
Essence Backlash
Firemind's Foresight
Dynacharge
Brimstone Volley
Thunderous Wrath
Explosive Impact
Street Spasm
Fling
Annihilating Fire
Thunderbolt
Negate
Cancel
Dissipate
Essence Scatter
Mizzium Skin
Blustersquall
Psychic Spiral

Sorceries:
Traitorous Blood
Demolish
Mizzium Mortars
Vandalblast
Survey the Wreckage
Artful Dodge
Inaction Injunction

Enchantments:
Encrust
Paralyzing Grasp
Chant of the Skifsang
Tricks of the Trade

Creatures:
Frostburn Weird
Goblin Electromancer
Nivix Guildmage
Bladetusk Boar
Utvara Hellkite
Guttersnipe
Scourge of Geier Reach
Hound of Griselbrand
Crossway Vampire
Dragon Hatchling
Heirs of Stromkirk
Minotaur Aggressor
Batterhorn
Goblin Battle Jester
Rakish Heir
Mist Raven
Voidwielder
Skaab Goliath
Vedalken Entrancer
Niblis of the Breath
Watercourser
Relentless Skaabs
Makeshift Mauler
Stormbound Geist
Skaab Ruinator
Archeomancer
Deranged Assistant

Lands(43):
Island x20
Mountain x20
Evolving Wilds
Izzet Guildgate
Sulfur Falls

[Penguinizer]

43 lands is a few too many in my opinion. 38-40 is enough. Especially if your'e running manastones. Which I recommend heavily.

Either way, to what level would you like me to help you optimize it to? EDH decks at different levels of optimization are really different.

[Togath]

Probably...medium?, I'm not actually what the levels of optimization are for this sort of thing.

also, are mana stones cards that have (tap this card)-add 1 mana(so things such as RtR keyrunes, vessel of endless rest, warden of the wall, or birds of paradise)?
And would investing in a few Kamigawa blocks cards help for commander format?(I know it's good for getting commanders, is it good for the format in general as well?)

[arguskos]

Probably...medium?, I'm not actually what the levels of optimization are for this sort of thing.

also, are mana stones cards that have (tap this card)-add 1 mana(so things such as RtR keyrunes, vessel of endless rest, warden of the wall, or birds of paradise)?
And would investing in a few Kamigawa blocks cards help for commander format?(I know it's good for getting commanders, is it good for the format in general as well?)
Honestly, if you want to explore Commander and get a lot of information about it, you really probably want to go to MtG Salvation's Commander (EDH) section. It's a pretty solid community with good advice (gods know I've benefited from reading up on decks there).

Mana rocks, by the by, are non-creature artifacts that make mana. The quintessential mana rock is Darksteel Ingot, for instance.

Kamigawa was awesome, but insular. Soulshift and Splice onto Arcane only really work with the block itself. If you want Kamigawa block stuff, just buy it in singles. Most of each pack will be chaff for EDH purposes, sadly.

[Fable Wright]

Probably...medium?, I'm not actually what the levels of optimization are for this sort of thing.

I think he's asking about whether it's the type of format where you want to lock your opponent out as fast as possible/combo out and win as fast as possible (Zur and Erayo being the dominating players), a highly competitive multiplayer environment that instant-win combos are disallowed in, French, or casual multiplayer.

[Togath]

Casual multi-player is probably the one I'd most likely end up playing in.
Do you think any of the older cards(since the Innistrad and RtR blocks have mainly had legendaries as mythics, with a small number of rare ones in m13) usable as commanders would still be in the 1-5$ range?

[Fable Wright]

Casual multi-player is probably the one I'd most likely end up playing in.
Do you think any of the older cards(since the Innistrad and RtR blocks have mainly had legendaries as mythics, with a small number of rare ones in m13) usable as commanders would still be in the 1-5$ range?
Yes. Yes they did. Just for mono-colored decks (the cheapest kind, usually), the best probably are Talrand, Omnath, Norin the Wary, Ashling the Pilgrim, Jaya Ballard, Chainer, Sheoldred, Isamaru, Azusa, Kamahl Fist of Krosa, Arcanis the Omnipotent, Ezuri, Thrun, Nemeta, Eight and a Half Tails, Konda, Asami, Arcum Dagsson, Braids Conjurer Adept, Ixidor, Teferi, Godo, Krenko, Ib Halfheart, Kiki-Jiki, Patron of the Orochi, Drana, Endrek Sahr, Geth, Horobi, Kiku, Kagemaro, Korlash, Maralen, Mikaeus (the both of them), Phage (don't laugh, it can work), Seizan, Sheoldred, Shirei, Skithiryx, and Visara; all, or almost all, cost under $5, and are viable, powerful commanders.

[arguskos]

Yes. Yes they did. Just for mono-colored decks (the cheapest kind, usually), the best probably are Talrand, Omnath, Norin the Wary, Ashling the Pilgrim, Jaya Ballard, Chainer, Sheoldred, Isamaru, Azusa, Kamahl Fist of Krosa, Arcanis the Omnipotent, Ezuri, Thrun, Nemeta, Eight and a Half Tails, Konda, Asami, Arcum Dagsson, Braids Conjurer Adept, Ixidor, Teferi, Godo, Krenko, Ib Halfheart, Kiki-Jiki, Patron of the Orochi, Drana, Endrek Sahr, Geth, Horobi, Kiku, Kagemaro, Korlash, Maralen, Mikaeus (the both of them), Phage (don't laugh, it can work), Seizan, Sheoldred, Shirei, Skithiryx, and Visara; all, or almost all, cost under $5, and are viable, powerful commanders.
Just so you know, like half of these don't make friends, and in fact piss people off pretty bad. Omnath, Norin, Chainer, any mono-blue, Krenko, Kiki-Jiki, Geth, Horobi, Magic Mike (black Mikaeus), Azusa, Skittles, and Arcum specifically all lend themselves towards unfun decks to play against.

Commander is a social format more than anything else, so when you select a commander I highly recommend you pick one that won't get you hated off the table. Thrun, Jaya Ballard, Ixidor, Endrek Sahr, and Eight and a Half Tails are probably my recommendations out of the above list.

Also, friends don't let friends play Maralen as a commander. Worse decisions have been made in Magic... but not many. It's really not a great choice, mostly because it turns into "everyone but you gets something cool, and then someone kills your general before you get to take another turn".

EDIT:

I think he's asking about whether it's the type of format where you want to lock your opponent out as fast as possible/combo out and win as fast as possible (Ertai and Erayo being the dominating players), a highly competitive multiplayer environment that instant-win combos are disallowed in, French, or casual multiplayer.
Uh... what's this? Erayo is banned in Commander as a commander. Ertai isn't actually all that good. If you're talking about the top tier decks, Zur the Enchanter, Sharruum the Hegemon, Azusa, Lost but Seeking, Azami, Lady of Scrolls, and probably a few others are on that list, but Ertai and Erayo definitely aren't. :smallconfused:

[Fable Wright]

Uh... what's this? Erayo is banned in Commander as a commander. Ertai isn't actually all that good. If you're talking about the top tier decks, Zur the Enchanter, Sharruum the Hegemon, Azusa, Lost but Seeking, Azami, Lady of Scrolls, and probably a few others are on that list, but Ertai and Erayo definitely aren't. :smallconfused:

My bad; I remember the days when Erayo was legal, and wasn't aware of the banning, and I mixed Ertai with Zur for some reason. I should double check stuff before I post...

[Togath]

Thrun or Eight-and-a-half Tails(even though I'm not sure how to use his effect) look like they could be fun.

[arguskos]

My bad; I remember the days when Erayo was legal, and wasn't aware of the banning, and I mixed Ertai with Zur for some reason. I should double check stuff before I post...
Heh, 'sall good. I remember those dark, dark days as well. Uuuugh it was terrible.

As for Ertai, I guess it technically depends on which one you're talking about. Wizard Adept (mono-blue) isn't very good. Corrupted is actually half decent. He suffers mostly from being Esper and not being Sharrum, Sen Triplets, or Zur, all of whom abuse the colors better than he ever could. Shame too, he's a fun card.


Thrun or Eight-and-a-half Tails(even though I'm not sure how to use his effect) look like they could be fun.
I have a Thrun deck right now. Thrun really lends himself to a strange way of playing mono-green: control. There's a surprising amount of cool control things you can do in mono-G and Thrun lets you escape most sweepers and counters. It's a fun deck.

Eight-and-a-Half Tails is a funky dude. Mono-white reaaaaaaally sucks though. It's very difficult to produce consistent non-land card advantage in mono-white, which makes your time hard in EDH. It's fun though (I'm partial to Elesh Norn, but no one likes it when that's your general).

[Togath]

I'll probably try for Thrun then(he's from the m11 & new-Mirroden block, correct? It's looked like a fun block to look into, since a lot of the new-Mirroden cards seem quirky, and my first introduction to mtg was actually the books written to go with the first Mirroden storyline[though at the time I didn't know the connection between the two, and last month was the first time I'd played mtg]).
also(on the subject of standard format), what would be good cards to boost a Rakdos event deck with?, I bought one partly because my gaming shop is usually out of Izzet boxes, and because it had a lot of the red spells I was aiming for. But after trying out a few test hands, it looks like a pretty strong deck(and stronger then the R/U I was planning to aim for)
so far I only have Rakdos's Return(I only have one of them atm), Vandalblast, and Traitorous Blood as ones that look like they could be good for the deck, anything else to look out for?

[Razaele]

So I've been working on my standard deck lately, and since I'd already fully invested in my Golgari deck, I thought I would try to make it work. Here's what I have:

Creatures (27)
Deathrite Shaman x4
Lotleth Troll x4
Diregraf Ghoul x4
Knight of Infamy x4
Geralf's Messenger x4
Dreg Mangler x4
Desecration Demon x3

Spells (10)
Rancor x4
Sign in Blood x4
Underworld Connections x2

Lands (23)
Overgrown Tomb x4
Woodland Cemetery x4
Cavern of Souls x4
Swamp x11

Sideboard
Golgari Charm x4
Vampire Nighthawk x4
Liliana of the Veil x3
Stab Wound x2
Curse on Death's Hold x2

So far, it's worked really well. I ended up with a 3-1 during last week's FNM. I lost pretty badly to a Bant Aggro deck that focused around enchantments and Geist of Saint Traft (hence the Liliana of the Veils in the sideboard). I decided against taking any removal and opted for plenty of creatures with evasion instead. What do you guys think?

Also, I've been thinking of grabbing Mutilate over Curse of Death's Hold, though I'm not sure if it's worth it since I'll be killing my own creatures.

[Ninjaman]

Needs 3 gravecrawlers, and more green sources for your rancors. I don't think deathrite is mainboard material.

[Razaele]

Needs 3 gravecrawlers, and more green sources for your rancors. I don't think deathrite is mainboard material.

While I agree that I do need more green sources for my Rancors, I have found that having more Swamps for my spells such as Sign in Blood, Geralf's Messenger, and Highborn Ghoul have made my deck much more consistent. Plus, I usually get at least one green source even if none appear in my opening hand through sheer draw power alone.

I'm not sure if this is just because of my meta-game, but I've already found Gravecrawlers to be rather sub-par. Sure for the first couple of terms they're pretty awesome, but generally during the mid-game they turn into massive piles of useless. Being unable to block is very painful. I therefore took Deathrite Shamans because one of the primary weaknesses of B/G is lack of reach, which the Shamans provide incredibly well.

[Penguinizer]

The entire "Doesn't make friends" thing is really subjective. You just need a metagame that is willing to play high-optimization decks, which are a lot of fun in their own way.

Anyways, Commander tends to have rather different standards for what makes a good card compared to normal M:tG. I think that deck could still use a fair bit of modification.

For example, single target burn is largely useless, as are counterspells. EDH is a format in which card advantage is king and reuseable effects are primarily better than one-shot effects. You largely want either mass-removal type effects or targeted removal that's really flexible. Counterspells are also not very good for similar reasons. I'd honestly say they're only good in French rules and even then it's a few specific ones.

Out of those instants, I'd only probably keep Counterflux. The others are just kind of lackluster. Somewhat the same with the Sorceries. I'd only keep Mizzium Mortars and Vandalblast. As for the others, I'd recommed deciding what to keep/cut yourself.

I'd recommend adding the following instants:
Blue Sun's Zenith
Thirst for Knowledge
Careful Consideration
Chaos Warp
Cyclonic Rift/Evacuation
Magmaquake
Reiterate/Reverberate/Twincast
Cackling Counterpart

If you want to run counters, I'd at least run the following:
Flusterstorm
Spell Crumble
Faerie Trickery
Dissipate
Commandeer
Hinder
Negate

You might also want to consider Price of Progress depending on your meta, mainly since it has the potential to do silly damage.


As for sorceries, I'd recommend the following:

Chain Reaction
Blasphemous Act
Devastation Tide
Compulsive Research
Wheel of Fortune
Recurring Insight
Insurrection
Rite of Replication


Enchantment Recommendations:

Futuresight
Treachery
Mystic Remora/Rhystic Study


Creature recommendations:

Phyrexian Metamorph
Solemn Simulacrum
Consecrated Sphinx
Magus of the Future
Sphinx of Lost Truths
Phantasmal Image
Snapcaster Mage (Pricy, but really useful)
Body Double
Mulldrifter
Trinket Mage
Duplicant

Guttersnipe and Archeomancer are cards I'd recomend keeping no matter what. They're really good.


Artifacts:

Sensei's Divining Top
Sol Ring
Mindstone
Izzet Signet
Darksteel Ingot
Coalition Relic
Chromatic Lantern
Lightning Greaves
Mimic Vat
Oblivion Stone


Lands:

Mikoro, Center of the Sea
Homeward Path
Academy Ruins
Desolate Lighthouse
Vesuva
Terramorphic Expanse
Evolving Wilds
Command Tower
Sulfur Falls
Cascade Bluffs
Izzet Guildgate
Shivan Reef

And fill the rest with basics so you have 39-40.


Planeswalkers:

Jace Beleren


I'm avoiding some cards due to price costs or them being mass land-hate. I recommend trying to get these cards over time to add to the deck.

[Togath]

Definitely looks useful. I'll probably go with the instant counters, since control decks are very common in the local meta, and having something against them seems useful.

Also;
Do you think wotc has anything special planned for the following year since it's the 20th anniversary for mtg?

[Lea Plath]

So. My article is up.
http://ponderingmagic.com/whatever-happened-to-braaaaains/

I'm working on a follow up at the moment about options for zombies and I'm probably gonan go back and do some edits. It comes off as me dismissing RB zombies as not a deck, when I do think it is a good deck, I just feel it is lacking compared to what RB zombies in Isd had. That level of board control I feel can be pretty vital and if we get more aggro decks come out with Gatecrash, an aggro deck with board control could be very well placed.

@Togath: Also, for commander, I always find it best to have a back up win con where possible.

In my decks, I've got token beat down, voltron and I've got a blood artists/bigger blood artist in my sideboard for if someone is playing evil.

For RU, there was a RU infinate combo that can be fetched with Firemind's Foresight that is something to consider. Or a curiosity/old Niv combo. Nim the Pain Artist is also another good card as she lets you dig for combo pieces or make friends (Let me just nuke your commander, here you go, have all your cards!) or be evil and use her as a win con. A cheap and also useful on its own infinate combo is Dead-Eye Navigator, Zealous Conscripts and Gilded Lotus (Soul bond the 2 creatures, tap lotus, flicker Conscripts, untap lotus repeat for infinate mana and then you can repeat it to steal everyone stuff using the mana)

Chandra is also a nice card to have, as her -2 is pretty sweet when casting something big.

Also! I've finished the basic shell of my cube. 21 of each 2 coloured combo. 30 mono coloured. 50 artifacts. 60 lands. Designed to be very flexible in colour and and casting costs. It isn't perfect yet, as I'm having to double up on some stuff due to not enough W/R or W/B one drops etc. But the shell is there. If anyone is good with cubes and minds helping me, that would be grand.

[Mindfreak]

So, for modern I just realized that I can do something really stupid.
With two commons:
1. Freed from the Real(Saviors of Kamigawa)
2. Axebane Guardian(Return to Ravnica)
Turn 1: Drop a defender
Turn 2: Drop a defender
Turn 3: Axebane Guardian
Turn 4: Freed from the Real on Axebane Guardian. Tap Axebane for 3 Mana, untap him using 1 mana with Freed from the Real. Repeat. With 64 mana floating(never know about Syncopates), mill your opponent with Increasing Confusion.
Then, if doing multiplayer, rinse and repeat :smalltongue:
Yes, it requires a perfect hand of: Forest, Forest, Island, Steel Wall, Axebane Guardian, Freed from the Real, Fog Bank, and to draw into Increasing Confusion by turn 4, but...there's gotta be another use for it...right?

[Litewarior]

Easier one:

Turn 1: Judge's Familiar (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=289221) (Or any blue multicolored 1 drop (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?action=advanced&cmc=+%3C=[1]&color=+^(+[U])&type=|[%22Creature%22]|[%22Enchantment%22]|[%22Artifact%22]))
Turn 2: Bloom Tender (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=158901)
Turn 3: Freed from the Real (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=87336) and enormous X spell.

[Bucky]

{TQ} loops are fairly common, although their output varies. See also Pestermite/Splinter Twin (output is tokens), Umbral Mantle on the aforementioned Bloom Tender (output is a very large Bloom Tender) and Echo Mage/Reality Spasm (output is untaps for other permanents).

Incidentally, {TQ} loops are also one of the more common single-set infinite combos (as in Bloom Tender/Umbral Mantle); the other common type is a Champion loop (3x Unstoppable Ash/Orchard Warden).

[tgva8889]

You actually only need 1 Defender for an Axebane Guardian loop.

Turn 1: Land
Turn 2: Land, Defender (let's say Overgrown Battlement since it makes you need 1 less land, but you could pick anything and just add another land)
Turn 3: Axebane Guardian
Turn 4: Freed from the Real on Axebane Guardian, floating U with Guardian. Untap Axebane Guardian. Tap it for U and some other mana, untap Axebane Guardian, loop until you have however much mana you want.

Minimum number of cards needed (including lands) is therefore 5. Actual loop is 2 specific cards and almost any Defender.

[Bucky]

Incidentally, {TQ} loops are also one of the more common single-set infinite combos (as in Bloom Tender/Umbral Mantle); the other common type is a Champion loop (3x Unstoppable Ash/Orchard Warden).

Also, I'm still missing a single-set infinite for both Return to Ravnica and Magic 2013. Does anyone else know of one?

[tgva8889]

What kind of "infinite" are you looking for? Like, one turn generate infinite (i.e. as much as you want of) of a single resource?

[Tectonic Robot]

...Norin the Wary commander deck?

Elaborate, please.

[Bucky]

What kind of "infinite" are you looking for? Like, one turn generate infinite (i.e. as much as you want of) of a single resource?

Gain an arbitrarily large amount of life, or cause a dummy opponent to lose an arbitrarily large amount of life, between the start of your turn and the start of their next turn. Increasing the amount of damage dealt should not increase the number of cards required. If you go infinite on another resource, you need to convert it to life or damage somehow.

EDIT: I think I have one for Return to Ravnica, but it's about as impractical as they come due to step 3:

Setup:
1)Cast Sphinx of the Chimes.
2)Cast Lotleth Troll
3)Draw your entire deck, using your draw phases and Sphinx. Discard the remainder of your deck to hand size, except for the 4 required for the rest of the combo and 3 as filler.
4)Cast Rakdos Charm to exile your graveyard.
5)Pitch a second Rakdos Charm(card chosen arbitrarily) to Lotleth Troll
Loop:
6)Pitch two Worldspine Worms to Sphinx of the Chimes (shuffling 2x Worldspine Worm, 2x Rakdos Charm into an empty library)
7)Pitch two Rakdos Charms to Lotleth Troll
Conversion:
8)Attack with an arbitrarily large Lotleth Troll. If a better conversion is required, sacrifice it to Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord instead.


EDIT2: And I'm an idiot, Magic 2013 is the set with the Faith's Reward loop. 2012 and 2010 are the ones which are missing.

[Androgeus]

...Norin the Wary commander deck?

Elaborate, please.

Abuse things that trigger when a creature comes in to play. I'll try to post my version later tonight.

[Fable Wright]

Gain an arbitrarily large amount of life, or cause a dummy opponent to lose an arbitrarily large amount of life, between the start of your turn and the start of their next turn. Increasing the amount of damage dealt should not increase the number of cards required. If you go infinite on another resource, you need to convert it to life or damage somehow.

EDIT: I think I have one for Return to Ravnica, but it's about as impractical as they come due to step 3:

Setup:
1)Cast Sphinx of the Chimes.
2)Cast Lotleth Troll
3)Draw your entire deck, using your draw phases and Sphinx. Discard the remainder of your deck to hand size, except for the 4 required for the rest of the combo and 3 as filler.
4)Cast Rakdos Charm to exile your graveyard.
5)Pitch a second Rakdos Charm(card chosen arbitrarily) to Lotleth Troll
Loop:
6)Pitch two Worldspine Worms to Sphinx of the Chimes (shuffling 2x Worldspine Worm, 2x Rakdos Charm into an empty library)
7)Pitch two Rakdos Charms to Lotleth Troll
Conversion:
8)Attack with an arbitrarily large Lotleth Troll. If a better conversion is required, sacrifice it to Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord instead.


EDIT2: And I'm an idiot, Magic 2013 is the set with the Faith's Reward loop. 2012 and 2010 are the ones which are missing.

You can't discard Rakdos Charm to Lotleth Troll.

[Bucky]

You can't discard Rakdos Charm to Lotleth Troll.

Not a combo-killer, since I need to have 4 arbitrary cards in hand anyway.

[Mystic Muse]

Is there some way in mono-white to cast Restore Balance rather than suspending it for six turns? I don't suppose an effect like Thalia's would give it a mana cost, would it?

[Androgeus]

Also note Worldspine Wurm only shuffles only itself back in, not your whole graveyard. Combo works with 4 wurms and no cards in library, pitch 2 wurms to sphinxs and the other 2 to lotleth.

[IthilanorStPete]

Is there some way in mono-white to cast Restore Balance rather than suspending it for six turns? I don't suppose an effect like Thalia's would give it a mana cost, would it?

No, it wouldn't.

[Androgeus]

Is there some way in mono-white to cast Restore Balance rather than suspending it for six turns? I don't suppose an effect like Thalia's would give it a mana cost, would it?

Windbrask Heights (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=287338) should work

edit:Forgot about Isochron Scepter. That can also let you cast it.

[Mystic Muse]

Windbrask Heights (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=287338) should work

edit:Forgot about Isochron Scepter. That can also let you cast it.

Windbrisk heights isn't quite ideal, but thanks anyway.

Isochron scepter won't let me cast it since it's a sorcery, not an instant. Panoptic mirror will though. Thanks for reminding me to look at cards with imprint.

[Androgeus]

Isochron scepter won't let me cast it since it's a sorcery, not an instant.
Panoptic mirror will though. Thanks for reminding me to look at cards with imprint.

Derp I always forget scepter is only instants. Don't know what format this is for, but panoptic mirror is "banned" in commander

Oh and because I said earlier here's my Norin The Weary Commander Deck

Creatures
Beetleback Chief
Goblin Assassin
Goblin Matron
Goblin Recuriter
Goblin Welder
Moggcatcher
Rummaging Goblin
Siege-gang Commander
Stingscourger
SQUEEEEEEE (Squee, Goblin Nabob)
Tuktuk Scrapper
Tuktuk the Explorer

Bogardan Helkite
Greater Gargadon
Gorilla Shaman
Hellrider
Mad Prophet
Mindclaw Shaman
Zealous Conscripts

Instants
Chaos Warp
Comet Storm
Reiterate
Reverberate
Shattering Pulse
Wild Ricochet

Sorcery
Aftershock
Chain Reaction
Faithless Looting
Insurrection
Mogg Infestation
Reforge the Soul
Warp World
Wheel of Fate
Wild Guess

Enchantment
Confusion in the Ranks
Pandemonium
Warstorm Surge

Grip of Chaos
Heat Stroke
Planar Chaos
Leyline of Punishment

Blood Moon
Stranglehold
Raid Bombardment
Wild Evocation

Artifacts
Genesis Chamber
Expedition Map
Wayfarer's Bauble

Honor-worn Shaku
Iron Myr
Khalni Gem
Mind Stone
Pristine Talisman
Springleaf drum

Memory Jar
Teferi's Puzzle Box

Krark's Thumb
Mimic Vat
Sculpting Steel
Skullclamp

Caged Sun
Conjurer's Closet
Knowledge Pool
Spin of Ish Sah
Timesifter
Thopter Assembly

Planeswalkers
Chandra Ablaze
Koth of the Hammer


Land
Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
Kher Keep
Haunted Fengraf
Mountain x27

Things I need to add to deck:
Cloudstone Curio
Change all the mountains to snow covered ones and throw in Scrying Sheets
Increase the amount of land, 30 is a tad low.

[Mystic Muse]

Derp I always forget scepter is only instants. Don't know what format this is for, but panoptic mirror is "banned" in commander


....

Dammit, how did I miss that?

Though, I guess things like that are WHY Panoptic Mirror is banned in commander.

[Duos]

Yeah, mirror is banned because "Imprint [insert time walk variant here], win" is really, really boring.

[tgva8889]

Gain an arbitrarily large amount of life, or cause a dummy opponent to lose an arbitrarily large amount of life, between the start of your turn and the start of their next turn. Increasing the amount of damage dealt should not increase the number of cards required. If you go infinite on another resource, you need to convert it to life or damage somehow.

EDIT: I think I have one for Return to Ravnica, but it's about as impractical as they come due to step 3:

Setup:
1)Cast Sphinx of the Chimes.
2)Cast Lotleth Troll
3)Draw your entire deck, using your draw phases and Sphinx. Discard the remainder of your deck to hand size, except for the 4 required for the rest of the combo and 3 as filler.
4)Cast Rakdos Charm to exile your graveyard.
5)Pitch a second Rakdos Charm(card chosen arbitrarily) to Lotleth Troll
Loop:
6)Pitch two Worldspine Worms to Sphinx of the Chimes (shuffling 2x Worldspine Worm, 2x Rakdos Charm into an empty library)
7)Pitch two Rakdos Charms to Lotleth Troll
Conversion:
8)Attack with an arbitrarily large Lotleth Troll. If a better conversion is required, sacrifice it to Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord instead.


EDIT2: And I'm an idiot, Magic 2013 is the set with the Faith's Reward loop. 2012 and 2010 are the ones which are missing.

Discarding Worldspine Wurm doesn't shuffle your whole graveyard back into your deck, just Worldspine Wurm. You can do it if you use 4 Worldspine Wurms and 1 Rakdos Charm.

What is your Faith's Reward loop? I don't actually know what in M13 actually lets you go infinite with Faith's Reward.

[Bucky]

What is your Faith's Reward loop? I don't actually know what in M13 actually lets you go infinite with Faith's Reward.

It was posted in the previous thread. It uses Gilded Lotuses for mana, Torch Fiends to kill the Gilded Lotuses, Archaeomancer to retrieve the Faith's Reward, Bloodthrone Vampire to kill the Archaeomancer, Faith's Reward to return all of the above to the battlefield untapped, and converts via a large Bloodthrone Vampire or an X-spell.

[tgva8889]

I believe one of the M sets has the Mirror of Fates which lets you do something infinite.

I found one for M12:

Have Sun Titan, 2 Phantasmal Images in your Graveyard, Warstorm Surge in play, and Devouring Swarm (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=226563).

Attack with Sun Titan. Put a Phantasmal Image from your graveyard into play. Deal 6 damage to your opponent, target the other Phantasmal Image with your newly copied Sun Titan. In response, sacrifice the first Image. The second Image returns, targeting the Image now in your graveyard to return and dealing 6 damage to your opponent. Rinse and repeat for infinite damage.

M10 lacks many of the tools you would conventionally use to go infinite, unfortunately, so I couldn't really find anything.

[Fable Wright]

M10 does indeed have Mirror of Fate. And Warp World.

Step 1: Activate Mirror of Fate. Exile your Library.
Step 2: Cast Open the Vaults. Return the Mirror from your graveyard to the battlefield.
Step 3: You have three Elvish Visionaries on the battlefield. Mirror of Fate to put a Warp World, Open the Vaults, and Haunting Echoes into your Library. Warp World.
Step 4: Cast Haunting Echoes, return to step 2.

It takes 19 basic lands to pull off, but with proper warp world shenanigans, that's not too hard to pull off. Finish them with the Bogarden Hellkite that repeatedly enters the battlefield.

[tgva8889]

Warp World might not work, as you might theoretically reveal all your Sorceries, leaving cards you need trapped in your library (like, say, all your Elvish Visionaries), thus ending your loop.

[Fable Wright]

Warp World might not work, as you might theoretically reveal all your Sorceries, leaving cards you need trapped in your library (like, say, all your Elvish Visionaries), thus ending your loop.

In that case, include a Siege-Gang Commander and you're set.

Polished up infinite loop:

Setup: Have 3 Elvish Visionaries, 1 Bogardan Hellkite, 1 Siege-Gang Commander, and 19 basic lands on the battlefield.
Step 1: Sacrifice Mirror of Fate to Exile your library.
Step 2: Cast Open the Vaults, returning Mirror of Fate to the battlefield.
Step 3: Crack Mirror of Fate, put Open the Vaults, Haunting Echoes, and Warp World on top of your Library.
Step 4: Cast Warp World. You net a total of 3 cards from the visionaries, with the Siege-Gang Commander ensures you'll get.
Step 5: Cast Open the Vaults, returning Mirror of Fate to the battlefield.
Step 6: Cast Haunting Echoes. Proceed to step 3.

You iterate repeatedly until the burn from the Hellkite kills off your opponent.

[tgva8889]

You don't actually automatically get anything this way, as you still start with enough permanents that you could hit all your Sorceries and none of your Visionaries with the first Warp World, thus ending your loop.

You can just not sacrifice the Mirror, cast Warp World with no cards in your Library, and with the Visionary triggers on the stack, use Mirror to fill your Library with the requisite Sorceries.

[Thanatos 51-50]

Looking to stockpile some mill cards in anticipation of Gatecrash and House Dimir. Any B/U mills out there in RtR that aren't Destroy the Evidence or Chronic Flooding?

[arguskos]

Looking to stockpile some mill cards in anticipation of Gatecrash and House Dimir. Any B/U mills out there in RtR that aren't Destroy the Evidence or Chronic Flooding?
Doorkeeper, the blue defender. He's... not great, but he's something.

There's Psychic Spiral, which is also a card, I guess.

If you don't already have Nephalia Drownyards you may as well get some of those as well.

[Nerocite]

Looking to stockpile some mill cards in anticipation of Gatecrash and House Dimir. Any B/U mills out there in RtR that aren't Destroy the Evidence or Chronic Flooding?

Crosstown Courier is a common.

[Togath]

If a colourless one counts, then there'sCodex Shredder (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=253635), it's only 1 mana for a 1/turn 1 card mill(with the ability to be sacrificed to bring back a card).
There's also Vedalken Entrancer (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=254121) for blue and Destroy the Evidence (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=253571), Mind Rot (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=265408), and Shrieking Affliction (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=265409)(not a mill itself, but it does combo with them fairly well) for black.

From M13 theres also;
Colourless:
Sands of Delirium (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=265133)

Blue:
Mind Sculpt (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=266487)
Black:
Ravenous Rats (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=279715)
Wit's End (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=278076)


Anti-Graveyard cards could also prove useful(for combating cards with flashback or scavange)

edit:
also, something I've been wondering since reading this (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/pr/225), would it be worth building up a B/R aggro deck into a Mono Red? It looks like it would be easier to get cards for a mono red deck then to build up a B/R one

[Thanatos 51-50]

So few straight-up mill cards.
And, come to think of it, I haven't seen ANY mill decks (Not even as gimmicks) recently.

Has it really fallen that far out of favour in the meta?

[Fable Wright]

You don't actually automatically get anything this way, as you still start with enough permanents that you could hit all your Sorceries and none of your Visionaries with the first Warp World, thus ending your loop.

You can just not sacrifice the Mirror, cast Warp World with no cards in your Library, and with the Visionary triggers on the stack, use Mirror to fill your Library with the requisite Sorceries.

Siege-Gang Commander fixes that. The three Goblin tokens means that Warp World hits X+3 cards from your new library, where X is the number of permanent cards on the battlefield. You have 3 cards in your library, which are put on the bottom from Warp World. Granted, your way works, but so does Siege-Gang Commander to hit all the cards.

[IthilanorStPete]

So few straight-up mill cards.
And, come to think of it, I haven't seen ANY mill decks (Not even as gimmicks) recently.

Has it really fallen that far out of favour in the meta?

Milling your opponent out has rarely been a viable strategy, though some control decks use Nephalia Drownyard as a late game wincon. As far as self-mill goes, that's been fairly viable lately for Reanimator - see the recent Chronic Flooding variant, as well as the effective mill from Mulch and Grisly Salvage used by 4c Rites.

[Tectonic Robot]

Well, as far as I can tell (pretty much a newbie here) the most viables colors for mill are blue/black. Glimpse The Unthinkable, Hedron Crab, Zombie Alchemist, Mind Funeral, all those are pretty effective.

Fun fact! Hedron's Crab ability is that whenever a card comes into play, target opponent mills three cards. Since the average deck has sixty cards, and three is one-twentieth of sixty, that comes out to the equivalent of one damage for every land! Pretty nifty...

Except your opponent draws seven or eight cards at the beginning of the game, and one every turn, and there are effects that draw and effects that put cards back in your library, so it's kind of skewed. @_@

[Androgeus]

Here, have a Christmas card (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/arcana/1124)

[IthilanorStPete]

Well, as far as I can tell (pretty much a newbie here) the most viables colors for mill are blue/black. Glimpse The Unthinkable, Hedron Crab, Zombie Alchemist, Mind Funeral, all those are pretty effective.

Fun fact! Hedron's Crab ability is that whenever a card comes into play, target opponent mills three cards. Since the average deck has sixty cards, and three is one-twentieth of sixty, that comes out to the equivalent of one damage for every land! Pretty nifty...

Except your opponent draws seven or eight cards at the beginning of the game, and one every turn, and there are effects that draw and effects that put cards back in your library, so it's kind of skewed. @_@

Crab's even better with fetchlands. (and to a lesser degree, land ramp in general) Were you around for Dredge-a-vine?

[Duos]

Crab's even better with fetchlands. (and to a lesser degree, land ramp in general) Were you around for Dredge-a-vine?

I played the elfball variant of that deck that used Fauna Shamans. Pitch Vengevine, get Vengevine, pitch Vengevine, get Vengevine, pitch Vengevine, get Vengevine....

Mana dork, Mana dork, swing for game.

[IthilanorStPete]

I played the elfball variant of that deck that used Fauna Shamans. Pitch Vengevine, get Vengevine, pitch Vengevine, get Vengevine, pitch Vengevine, get Vengevine....

Mana dork, Mana dork, swing for game.

Heh, that's always good. Dredge-a-vine used that as well as Crab to mill yourself for Vengevine and Bloodghast, Enclave Cryptologist for looting, some Unearth guys like Rotting Rats, Corpse Connoisseur, and Extractor Demon.

[Duos]

It was such a resilient deck, too, until there started to be two to four copies of relic in every sideboard ever. I transitioned into Girl Scouts at that point.

I named my variant "Ezuri teaches scientific notation."

[Thanatos 51-50]

Well, as far as I can tell (pretty much a newbie here) the most viables colors for mill are blue/black. Glimpse The Unthinkable, Hedron Crab, Zombie Alchemist, Mind Funeral, all those are pretty effective.

Fun fact! Hedron's Crab ability is that whenever a card comes into play, target opponent mills three cards. Since the average deck has sixty cards, and three is one-twentieth of sixty, that comes out to the equivalent of one damage for every land! Pretty nifty...

Except your opponent draws seven or eight cards at the beginning of the game, and one every turn, and there are effects that draw and effects that put cards back in your library, so it's kind of skewed. @_@
Black/Blue is pretty much THE mill deck. It has hand hate, graveyard hate, tons of mills, the bst tutors in the game, bounces and counterspells.
It doesn't typically run CREATURES well, but some stealing from the enemy graveyard is supposed to fix that.
Plus, lots of ways to become unblockable.

[Togath]

If you do end up going mill, look out for decks that use their own graveyard. Going tri-colour and adding either green or white could help prevent that though(white has decent anti-graveyard, and G/W has Dryad Militant)

[Fable Wright]

If you do end up going mill, look out for decks that use their own graveyard. Going tri-colour and adding either green or white could help prevent that though(white has decent anti-graveyard, and G/W has Dryad Militant)

...U/B has more than enough graveyard hate tools, thank you.
Tormod's Crypt, Surgical Extraction, Extirpate, Grafdigger's Cage, Faerie Macabre, Haunting Echoes...

[Arkusus]

Okay so... Shenanigans question.

Suppose my opponent has a legendary creature out that I like, but don't like HIM having...

I can play Clone, choose that creature and then it'll act as a kill, sending both clone and the legendary to the graveyard. This I know.

HOWEVER... Since Clone does not "target", could I play Clone, choosing the legendary creature, and THEN (on the stack, before Clone resolves) kill, or remove the original legendary creature from the battlefield (unsummon, murder, flame lash, take your pick) and then keep the cloned version of that legendary for myself?

[IthilanorStPete]

Okay so... Shenanigans question.

Suppose my opponent has a legendary creature out that I like, but don't like HIM having...

I can play Clone, choose that creature and then it'll act as a kill, sending both clone and the legendary to the graveyard. This I know.

HOWEVER... Since Clone does not "target", could I play Clone, choosing the legendary creature, and THEN (on the stack, before Clone resolves) kill, or remove the original legendary creature from the battlefield (unsummon, murder, flame lash, take your pick) and then keep the cloned version of that legendary for myself?

No. You choose what Clone copies after it resolves, as it enters the battlefield. If you play Clone and respond with a kill spell, by the time Clone comes in, the legendary'll be dead.

[memnarch]

...
HOWEVER... Since Clone does not "target", could I play Clone, choosing the legendary creature, and THEN (on the stack, before Clone resolves) kill, or remove the original legendary creature from the battlefield (unsummon, murder, flame lash, take your pick) and then keep the cloned version of that legendary for myself?

I'm not an expert, but I believe the answer is no. This would be because at the time you make the decision of what creature you are copying, there is no room for anyone, you or opponent, to respond to that choice.

[Lord Seth]

...U/W has more than enough graveyard hate tools, thank you.
Tormod's Crypt, Surgical Extraction, Extirpate, Grafdigger's Cage, Faerie Macabre, Haunting Echoes...How are Extirpate or Haunting Echoes U/W?

[IthilanorStPete]

How are Extirpate or Haunting Echoes U/W?

Pretty sure he meant U/B.

[Science Officer]

So, there's an interesting (and rather cruel) combo I saw on MTGS, going by the name of "Top Control". First you play Lantern of Insight, then you play Codex Shredder, or Ghoulcaller's Bell, and then you never let your opponent draw anything that could allow them to win.

The first few lists were U/W, but they seem to be playing more red...
Anyways, I've got two lists that are designed for Modern in terms of legality, but probably wouldn't be competitive there.

U/W Top Control

4 Codex Shredder
2 Ghoulcaller's Bell
4 Lantern of Insight
1 AEther Spellbomb
2 Sunbeam Spellbomb
2 Salvaging Station

4 Trinket Mage

4 Porphyry Nodes

2 Pulse of the Fields
3 Dispatch
3 Thirst for Knowledge
3 Feeling of Dread

2 Thoughtcast

4 Adarkar Wastes
11 Plains
9 Island

I sort of lost interest in this one. I guess the only win condition is more milling. Porphyry Nodes is a fun card. I really like Salvaging Station, but it seems the only thing it does here is recur Sunbeam Spellbombs, which is pretty intense, but probably not worth 6 mana. Pulse of the Fields is probably bad, but lets you survive long enough for Porphyry Nodes to do its work, hopefully.

U/B/R Top Control

4 Codex Shredder
4 Lantern of Insight
2 Ghoulcaller's Bell
4 Pyrite Spellbomb
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Salvaging Station

3 Trinket Mage
3 Mishra, Artificer Prodigy

3 Thirst for Knowledge
3 Pyroclasm
3 Despise
3 Thoughtcast

9 Island
4 Crumbling Necropolis
5 Swamp
6 Mountain

Yes, Mishra, Artificer Prodigy. A Tezzeret would probably be a better wincon/engine, but Mishra is much more fun. This deck plays somewhat more proactive removal. Pyrite Spellbomb is great fun, and a better wincon with Salvaging Station. Despise is pretty bad compared to Thoughtseize or IoK, but creatures and walkers are the main threats to you (well, boarded artifact hate is probably the main threat to you, but mostly you beat that by getting the combo out quickly to stop them drawing into it). Booby Trap would be a fun wincon in either deck, and especially with Mishra, but I like Salvaging Station.

So, thoughts? And does anyone else like to play with bad Modern/Standard decks on Cockatrice?

[tgva8889]

Siege-Gang Commander fixes that. The three Goblin tokens means that Warp World hits X+3 cards from your new library, where X is the number of permanent cards on the battlefield. You have 3 cards in your library, which are put on the bottom from Warp World. Granted, your way works, but so does Siege-Gang Commander to hit all the cards.

You don't need the Siege-Gang Commander to do it, so you can drop a card. It seems like a relevant change. You also didn't start with any Goblin tokens originally.

You can also generate infinite mana by just adding another land and then you can convert by replacing one of your looping sorceries with, like, Fireball (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=221550) or something. This loop seems to require the most cards of the ones I've seen so far since you need 19 basic lands.

[GodGoblin]

Hey back in the last thread you guys really helped me out with learning to use my (annoyingly limited) first deck, since then ive become much more proficient at the game and have pretty much finished my Modern Monoblack Vamp aggro deck. Its very effective but quite simple.

Im now looking to build a Standard deck and would like something that uses a bit more grey matter than my Aggro vamps. Im planning on going U/W control!

The only issue is I have very little base knowledge of these colours or control in general. So im turning to you guys once again!

Mainly whats good in W/U standard control at the mo and whats a decent place to start? Any pre constructed decks out there thats worth building upon? Or individual card that I can build around? Any advice would be great :smallbiggrin:

[Penguinizer]

For UW, you're more or less best off just getting the cards separately. It's also far from inexpensive. You're looking at Snapcaster Mages, Restoration Angels, Geists, Sphinx's Revelation and whatnot.

I'd recommend starting from the Snapcasters and Geists since they're also staples in other formats.

Here's more or less something I'd try for a UW tempo type deck. Keep in mind this is something based more on Legacy knowledge than T2 knowledge.

Lands:
4x Glacial Fortress
4x Hallowed Fountain
2x Moorland Haunt

7x Island
5x Plains

Creatures:
4x Snapcaster Mage
4x Restoration Angel
3x Geist of Saint Traft
3x Lyev Skyknight
2x Dungeon Geists

Spells:
-Removal:
3x Azorius Charm
4x Detention Sphere or Oblivion Ring

-Counters (if you want them):
3x Dissipate
3x Essence Scatter
3x Syncopate

-Others:
2x Sphinx's Revelation
4x Think Twice


I think the main issue with UW is that there's no good targeted removal for the colors that isn't an enchantment. The decklist probably needs a ton of tweaking though, so keep that in mind. Test it on something like cockatrice first. You can probably do without the Revelation but it's a great card for the deck. Going without snapcaster or angel is a bit trickier in my opinion.

[GodGoblin]

For UW, you're more or less best off just getting the cards separately. It's also far from inexpensive. You're looking at Snapcaster Mages, Restoration Angels, Geists, Sphinx's Revelation and whatnot.

I'd recommend starting from the Snapcasters and Geists since they're also staples in other formats.

Here's more or less something I'd try for a UW tempo type deck. Keep in mind this is something based more on Legacy knowledge than T2 knowledge.

Lands:
4x Glacial Fortress
4x Hallowed Fountain
2x Moorland Haunt

7x Island
5x Plains

Creatures:
4x Snapcaster Mage
4x Restoration Angel
3x Geist of Saint Traft
3x Lyev Skyknight
2x Dungeon Geists

Spells:
-Removal:
3x Azorius Charm
4x Detention Sphere or Oblivion Ring

-Counters (if you want them):
3x Dissipate
3x Essence Scatter
3x Syncopate

-Others:
2x Sphinx's Revelation
4x Think Twice


I think the main issue with UW is that there's no good targeted removal for the colors that isn't an enchantment. The decklist probably needs a ton of tweaking though, so keep that in mind. Test it on something like cockatrice first. You can probably do without the Revelation but it's a great card for the deck. Going without snapcaster or angel is a bit trickier in my opinion.

Thanks for the reply, ill look into the cards you mentioned. Im not set on U/W fully if any other colour combos are good for control? Really I just want to play a deck that makes me think in game rather than straight forward agrro, im open to pretty much any suggestion :smallsmile:

[IthilanorStPete]

Mainly whats good in W/U standard control at the mo and whats a decent place to start? Any pre constructed decks out there thats worth building upon? Or individual card that I can build around? Any advice would be great :smallbiggrin:

Check out the UWr Flash decks (as well as Esper and Bant, for other UW/x control decks) in the latest Standard Compendium (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/pr/225) on DailyMTG.

[Togath]

For white control decks, while it's a rare card(so a little harder to get), martial law can also be pretty good(or at least it's useful vs. aggro decks), it's another enchantment, but allows you to make one of your opponent's non-land permanents unusable until their next turn.

[Thanatos 51-50]

Since we're talking about control decks, I have a friend who is trying to make a viable Azor's Elocutors (http://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=265418) deck. Thoughts?

[Penguinizer]

I'd slot him into a more or less standard Túrbo-fog deck. I'd take inspiration from the ones from Lorwyn standard.

[Togath]

After reading today's article on some of the cards with unleash I've been wondering, which RtR cards with keyword abilities should you avoid?
From my understanding of optimization, these look pretty weak;
Scavenge:
Drudge Beetle(a 2/2 body, with a 6 cmc scavenge, other then as filler, it looks useless)
Korozda Moniter(4 cmc for a 3/3 with trample, and the scavenge[7cmc] is even worse then drudge beetle)
Terrus Wurm(weaker in every way compared to deadbridge goliath, though it is pure black)
Zanikev locust?(not 100% on this one, the body is pretty bad, but it has a very good scavenge, so it might actually work in a self-milling deck or a B/U Skaab one)
Unleash:
Spawn of Rix-Maadi(Chaos Imps or Bloodfray Giant are probably better)
Grim Roustabout(since it has an expensive regeneration, and has a fairly weak body)
Populate:
Courser's Accord(it's 6 cmc for two 3/3 tokens, compared to call of the conclave's 2 cmc for one 3/3 token)
Eyes in the Skies(4 cmc for a 1/1 flying.....ಠ_ಠ)
Horncaller's Chant(would be useful if it were only 4cmc for a single 4/4 token with trample, but 8 cmc seems impractical)
Trostani's Judgment(there are cheaper removal spells for white)
Detain:
Isperia's Skywatch(too much mana compared to other options)
Soulsworn Spirit?(not sure about this one, since it is unblockable)
all of the overload ones looks pretty good though.

[tgva8889]

I have to assume you're talking Constructed above, as otherwise many of those cards are way more playable.

In terms of optimization, most of the Common Overload cards are just too expensive or too limited. Chemister's Trick doesn't do enough for 5 mana the majority of the time. Mizzium Skin's overload is rarely relevant in Constructed. Electrickery doesn't do enough damage to be worth it most of the time. Additionally, Street Spasm is ridiculously expensive and Teleportal requires you to have a lot for it to be good.

[Lea Plath]

About Mill: Mill as a competitive deck has never been great, besides something like Statis.

Self mill is pretty good though. With cards like Snapcaster and cards that want a big graveyard, you can do some awesome stuff. Look at dredge or dredgevine.

Now. I've been playing around with my junk deck and it never felt quite as fun as I wanted it to be.

So now I'm trying something different. BG Midrange. This way, when Gatecrash comes out, I can stay in BG or then add another colour depending on the guilds. BUG is the colour combo I'm looking at for post gatecrash.

So I've seen 2 BG midrange decks on mtgdecks.net, but if anyone knows any and can link them, that would be grand.

Most of them also run cards like Arbor Elf, Deathrite Shaman, Elvish Visionary, and Elven Archdruid. I guess make elves, ramp into Griselbrand or Craterhoof. Swing for win.

I'm possibly looking at doing a version like this, using more creatures to survive as I get to Griselbrand/Craterhoof. Maybe some extra card draw too.

Not the finished deck, but if anyone can look over it for suggestions. Or just tell me I am wrong and should run elves. Either works.


Creature (21)
4x Arbor Elf
1x Craterhoof Behemoth
2x Deathrite Shaman
2x Griselbrand
4x Strangleroot Geist
4x Thragtusk
4x Vampire Nighthawk
Land (23)
7x Forest
1x Golgari Guildgate
4x Overgrown Tomb
7x Swamp
4x Woodland Cemetery
Instant (4)
2x Golgari Charm
2x Ultimate Price
Planeswalker (3)
1x Garruk Relentless
2x Vraska the Unseen
Sorcery (2)
2x Sever the Bloodline

[Togath]

I have to assume you're talking Constructed above, as otherwise many of those cards are way more playable.

In terms of optimization, most of the Common Overload cards are just too expensive or too limited. Chemister's Trick doesn't do enough for 5 mana the majority of the time. Mizzium Skin's overload is rarely relevant in Constructed. Electrickery doesn't do enough damage to be worth it most of the time. Additionally, Street Spasm is ridiculously expensive and Teleportal requires you to have a lot for it to be good.

Constructed was what I was going for.
It also looks like I need to work on gauging non-creatures still.

Semi Related; what are some good anti-token swarming(via 1/1 or 2/2 tokens), anti-artifact, and anti-enchantment cards for red or green?
I know vandalbast is a decent anti-artifact for red, and naturalize is pretty good vs. both for green. what are a few others for those two?.

[GodGoblin]

Hey guys so I was asking advice about a standard control deck and ive done some thinking and decided on a Door to Nothingness Blue/Green ramp control. This is just a wish list really, an advice on how to cut it down?

Artifacts
4 x Door to Nothingness
4 x Chromatic Lantern
4 x Witchbane Orb
Creatures
4 x Hover Barrier
4 x Axebane Guardian
4 x Gatecreeper Vine
4 x Fog Bank
4 x Kraken Hatchling
Spells
4 x Dispel
4x Temporal Mastery
4 x Cancel
4 x Fog
4 x Ranger's Path
4 x Farseek
4 x Boundless Realms
4 x Essence Scatter
Land
15x Island
7x Forest

The main idea is to make myself as hard to kill as possible while ramping up to The Door. Also thinking of Sideboarding in Ludevic's Test Subject/Abomination for an alt win condition.

[Sohala]

Doorkeeper is another option for wincon.

[Zinc]

Hey guys so I was asking advice about a standard control deck and ive done some thinking and decided on a Door to Nothingness Blue/Green ramp control. This is just a wish list really, an advice on how to cut it down?

Artifacts
4 x Door to Nothingness
4 x Chromatic Lantern
4 x Witchbane Orb
Creatures
4 x Hover Barrier
4 x Axebane Guardian
4 x Gatecreeper Vine
4 x Fog Bank
4 x Kraken Hatchling
Spells
4 x Dispel
4x Temporal Mastery
4 x Cancel
4 x Fog
4 x Ranger's Path
4 x Farseek
4 x Boundless Realms
4 x Essence Scatter
Land
15x Island
7x Forest

The main idea is to make myself as hard to kill as possible while ramping up to The Door. Also thinking of Sideboarding in Ludevic's Test Subject/Abomination for an alt win condition.

I saw a 4 colour control deck with Door to Nothingness on Channel Fireball which you may like. It's got plenty of ramp in the shape of Ranger's Path, Chromatic Lantern and Farseek, and it also has other win conditions like Griselbrand and Angel of Serenity. It has a bit of a rough time versus BR zombies and RDW, but that is to be expected a bit given the nature of the deck.

Say hello to Omnidoor Thragfire (http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/woo-brews-omnidoor-thragfire/)

[Lea Plath]

Artifacts
4 x Door to Nothingness
4 x Chromatic Lantern
4 x Witchbane Orb
Creatures
4 x Hover Barrier
4 x Axebane Guardian
4 x Gatecreeper Vine
4 x Fog Bank
4 x Kraken Hatchling
Spells
4 x Dispel
4x Temporal Mastery
4 x Cancel
4 x Fog
4 x Ranger's Path
4 x Farseek
4 x Boundless Realms
4 x Essence Scatter
Land
15x Island
7x Forest.

Why not just do UG Mill or UG Door that has been making the rounds. Axebane. Door. Fog Bank. Hover. Galvic Alchemist. Some fog spells etc. Win con of going infinite and dooring them?

Seems a lot easier and cheaper than this.

[GodGoblin]

Thanks for the tips there, I probably wont go for the 4 colour just yet but Omniscience is amazing! Probably not actually needed with all the ramping I have though.

Probably not the best idea but I do like the idea of when playing best of 3 switching the Win Con out every game, should make things interesting for the opponent at least :smalltongue:


Why not just do UG Mill or UG Door that has been making the rounds. Axebane. Door. Fog Bank. Hover. Galvic Alchemist. Some fog spells etc. Win con of going infinite and dooring them?

Seems a lot easier and cheaper than this.

Well my main idea was to use Chromatic lantern and Door to nothingness, The green/Blue was just the deck I decided to slip it into, also with the Lanterns I can throw in some extra colours if i want later on too.

Anyone seen how Bolas runs in this style deck? Could be interesting.

Current list:

Artifacts
4 x Door to Nothingness
4 x Chromatic Lantern
4x Gilded Lotus
Creatures
4 x Hover Barrier
4 x Axebane Guardian
4 x Gatecreeper Vine
4 x Fog Bank
4 x Kraken Hatchling
Spells
4 x Cancel
4 x Fog
4 x Ranger's Path
Land
10x Island
10x Forest
64 Cards

Sideboard
4x Ludevic's Test Subject/Abomination
4x Door Keeper
4x Mind Sculpt
3x Witchbane Orb

[Lea Plath]

Thanks for the tips there, I probably wont go for the 4 colour just yet but Omniscience is amazing! Probably not actually needed with all the ramping I have though.

Probably not the best idea but I do like the idea of when playing best of 3 switching the Win Con out every game, should make things interesting for the opponent at least :smalltongue:



Well my main idea was to use Chromatic lantern and Door to nothingness, The green/Blue was just the deck I decided to slip it into, also with the Lanterns I can throw in some extra colours if i want later on too.

Anyone seen how Bolas runs in this style deck? Could be interesting.

My friend runs a very similar list and I've helped him improve it. Problem with Door is it comes out turn 4 at the earliest. Then you need to survive to turn 5 and have the right lands/mana when you can win easier on turn 4 with galvic combo.

http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/sams-defenders/

This is the defender deck I made for my friend. Main win con is to mill them out, with a secondary win con of door in the side. It could probably use some tweaks (Kraken Hatchling could actually speed up the deck if you go, Land, kraken, turn. Land, gatecreeper, turn. Land, axe bane, turn. Land. Kraken. Galvic. Go infinite turn 4)

[Duos]

I would point out that kraken hatchling doesn't actually have defender. It just has 0 power. So it's not actually helpful.

[Togath]

what are pre-release events like?, I was thinking of heading to one for gatecrash next month(at the same store I've been using), probably a afternoon one, though depending on how things go, I might head to a midnight one.
I was also trying to decide which guild box to choose(I was thinking probably Orzhav or Gruul), do you think any aspects of them from the original Ravicnia block will return?

[IthilanorStPete]

what are pre-release events like?, I was thinking of heading to one for gatecrash next month(at the same store I've been using), probably a afternoon one, though depending on how things go, I might head to a midnight one.
I was also trying to decide which guild box to choose(I was thinking probably Orzhav or Gruul), do you think any aspects of them from the original Ravicnia block will return?

Awesome and fun. :smallbiggrin:

[Duos]

Preleases are swanky.

They're a lot of fun, and worth the money, since you get packs of value equal to your entry fee and can sometimes win more. I went to tow of the RTR ones so I could play two different guilds.

[Togath]

Sounds fun :smallbiggrin:.

Also, how are these trades?, They seemed like pretty even/fair trades to me, but I thought I should check;
Guy 1:
Havoc Festival x1 for Creepy Doll x1


Guy 2:
Angel of Serenity x1 for Wild Beastmaster x2, Slime Molding x3

Wit's End, Abrupt Decay x2, and Abattoir Ghoul x1 for Tavern Swindler x2, Duty-Bound Dead x2, Goblin Deathraiders x1, Jund Hackblade x1, and Flinthoor Boar x2

[Nerocite]

what are pre-release events like?, I was thinking of heading to one for gatecrash next month(at the same store I've been using), probably a afternoon one, though depending on how things go, I might head to a midnight one.
I was also trying to decide which guild box to choose(I was thinking probably Orzhav or Gruul), do you think any aspects of them from the original Ravicnia block will return?

Very fun. I would highly recommend going. As for guild mechanics, they seem to be either pretty similar to the originals (Izzet, Selesnya) or way different (Rakdos).

[Fable Wright]

Angel of Serenity >> Wild Beastmasters and Slime Moldings. Person with the angel is getting ripped off.

2x Abrupt Decay > Everything else in that deal. Person with the Decays is getting ripped off.

Havoc Festival and Creepy Doll is a fair trade.

[Togath]

Angel of Serenity >> Wild Beastmasters and Slime Moldings. Person with the angel is getting ripped off.

2x Abrupt Decay > Everything else in that deal. Person with the Decays is getting ripped off.

Havoc Festival and Creepy Doll is a fair trade.

Darn. At least I got one fair trade though.
Also because I'm now curious, how do you use angel of serenity?
also, how was another trade I got offered(by the same guy as the havoc festival for creepy doll trade); Rakdos's Return x1 for Elbrus, The Binding Blade x1?

[LansXero]

Darn. At least I got one fair trade though.
Also because I'm now curious, how do you use angel of serenity?
also, how was another trade I got offered(by the same guy as the havoc festival for creepy doll trade); Rakdos's Return x1 for Elbrus, The Binding Blade x1?

www.magiccards.info
Elbrus: 1$
Rakdos Return: 5 - 6$

Even if you arent selling / buying, keeping the value in mind is good to evaluate trades :v

As for your other trades:

- Angel of Serenity (15$) vs Wild Beastmaster x2 (0.20$) + Slime Molding x3 (0.12$) for total 0.32$ value. Angel is also used in top competitive decks while the other two are mostly unplayed and unsellable.

- Abrupt Decay x2 (9$)+ Wit`s End + Abattoir Ghoul for total 9.20$ vs total 0.40$ value off mostly unsellable cards, while Abrupt Decay is playable in more than just Standard.

- Havoc Festival (0.10) vs Creepy Doll (0.10)

Id say you should never ever trade with those people again.

[Togath]

If it helps, the one offering Elbrus for Rakdos' Return was the same one as the even trade(Havic Festival for Creepy Doll), with the bad trades beign someone else. So I can simply avoid trading with the guy who give uneven trades in the future, and next time I'm there see if the one who wanted a Rakdos' Return for Elbrus still wants that trade.
edit: misread 1$ for Elbrus as 17$.
I wonder if the guy who traded for the angel of serenity would be willing to retrade back(or for an equivalent amount).
He even seemed reluctant to trade for it(not sure why I believed him).
ah, and the second trade he offered was even worse(scion of the ur dragon for angel of serenity).
Do you suppose there's any chance they just didn't know the values? Though the guy who gave the bad trade for angel of serenity did have a few very old cards(all the way back to when creatures were called "summon-[creature type]).
Does it help at all that I probably would have bought the cards I traded for anyway?(and probably from the shop, so about 15$)

[LansXero]

There is no way an active player doesnt know wild beastmaster and slime molding are worthless while angel of serenity is an staple of competitive decks. The actual values? Sure, he probably didnt knew exactly those, but he definitively knew he was ripping you of. On top of that, Serenity has been going down in price lately, so he probably thought it was worth even more than its selling for right now. Lets hope he wants to re-trade and no, having been willing to buy the cards at inflated prices doesnt really make it better

[Mystic Muse]

]On top of that, Serenity has been going down in price lately

Yay! I might be able to afford a few for a standard deck, and my white EDH control deck. :smallbiggrin:

[Togath]

Darn, at least I know to check prices ahead of time now though.
Even if I can't get it back, at least I wasn't building a white deck of the sort that would use one, so it's not too big of a loss.
Also a bit ironic I got swindled into trading a rare card for--among the other cards--a tavern swindler.

[Lea Plath]

Heh. If you have an android phone, mtgfamilar is a pretty good tool to have and it is free.

And does anyone have any kind of IM and don't mind me poking them on IMs for a game of Magic? EDH. Modern. Legacy. Standard.

[Ninjaman]

Heh. If you have an android phone, mtgfamilar is a pretty good tool to have and it is free.

And does anyone have any kind of IM and don't mind me poking them on IMs for a game of Magic? EDH. Modern. Legacy. Standard.

What does IM stand for?

[Mystic Muse]

Heh. If you have an android phone, mtgfamilar is a pretty good tool to have and it is free.

And does anyone have any kind of IM and don't mind me poking them on IMs for a game of Magic? EDH. Modern. Legacy. Standard.

Soft_Serve_Smoothie_ for Skype.

soulbanish for AIM.

[Togath]

Heh. If you have an android phone, mtgfamilar is a pretty good tool to have and it is free.

I don't have a cell phone actually, though I suppose I could ask around the game shop next time in case anyone else does.

[Thanatos 51-50]

What does IM stand for?

Instant Messanger

I never got int playing Magic over IM. I guess I instinctively don't trust anyone.
That, or I'm not smart enough to hold half the board in my head.

[Mystic Muse]

Lea Plath, I sent you an Invite on MSN.

[Duos]

Personally, I use Cockatrice and lackeyCCG. Both are fine programs and allow you to play magic for free over the internet.

Bonus points for being able to build whatever you feel like.

[Togath]

In a brighter note;
How is Patron of the Nezumi (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247171)as a commander for an EDH deck? And would it be worth looking for Patron of the Kitsune(gain 1 life whenver somthing attacks) and Patron of the Orochi(untap everything[including himself, as well as lands] with green mana, once per turn) as well?

[Fable Wright]

In a brighter note;
How is Patron of the Nezumi (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247171)as a commander for an EDH deck? And would it be worth looking for Patron of the Kitsune(gain 1 life whenver somthing attacks) and Patron of the Orochi(untap everything[including himself, as well as lands] with green mana, once per turn) as well?

It depends. If you're going rat tribal, then Marrow-Gnawer is better. If you're trying to abuse its ability, it would probably be fine. If you're just making mono-black Good Stuff, then you probably want a different commander, like Sheoldred, Visara, Mikaeus, and so on.

[Togath]

It depends. If you're going rat tribal, then Marrow-Gnawer is better. If you're trying to abuse its ability, it would probably be fine. If you're just making mono-black Good Stuff, then you probably want a different commander, like Sheoldred, Visara, Mikaeus, and so on.

I hadn't known about Marrow-Gnawer, I'll definitely see if i can find one for commander, since rat tribal sounds fun.

[Sinfonian]

Since the topic has drifted toward Commander, I though I'd share a few things. I've gotten really into the format, in large part because of the casual and social aspects of it. It's just a very different way of playing that I find I really enjoy. I also enjoy putting together the decks, more than perfecting the ones I already have.

Here's what I've been playing:
Kaalia of the Vast- Exactly what you'd think: Angel/Demon beatdown, bent on cheating things into play
The Mimeoplasm- Graveyard Shenanigans
Karador, Ghost Chieftain- Recursion Shenanigans, with the bonus of Primal Surge and 98 permanents for "I Primal Surge for my deck!"
Olivia Voldaren- Vampire Tribal
Grimgrin, Corpseborn- Zombie Tribal/Mill
Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius- Assorted Red/Blue things, it's just a pile of stuff I thought was fun
Rhys the Redeemed- Tokens
And the newest of the bunch,
Marton Stromgald- Super fast aggro. This thing has been able to win 3 player games as early as Turn 6. I'm starting to regret building it, since the games tend to end so quickly that no one has any fun.

I've been able to actually build a fairly regular Commander community at the FLGS. My only issue is that it's become apparent that I like optimizing more than most of my compatriots, and I've had to start dialing things back. It's become more popular than I would have expected at first. We went from having maybe 2 or 3 people wanting to play (with decks I loaned out from mine) to 7, each with their own decks.

[Togath]

Just found a weird card: Sakura Tribe Springcaller (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=74092), what does it do? I don't remember seeing anything about "mana burn" in the rules?

[Shadow of the Sun]

Mana Burn was removed in 2010 edition, I think.

It used to be that if you had un-used mana when one of your phases ended, you took damage equal to the amount of mana floating.

[Togath]

Ah.
Also, another thing I had been wondering about;
for a B/R aggro deck, which is a better 2 mana creature?;
Rakdos Shred Freak, Thrill-Kill Assassin, Gorehouse Chain Walker, Knight of Infamy, Daggerdrome Imp, or Tavern Swindler?

Thrill-Kill Assin looked like it has the best long term effect(high toughness and death touch), but a few of the other have either raw speed/damage(Rakdos Shred Freak, Gorehouse Chain Walker), or Avoidance(Knight of Infamy, Daggerdrome Imp), or a basic 2/2 body with an effect(for Tavern Swindler)

[IthilanorStPete]

Ah.
Also, another thing I had been wondering about;
for a B/R aggro deck, which is a better 2 mana creature?;
Rakdos Shred Freak, Thrill-Kill Assassin, Gorehouse Chain Walker, Knight of Infamy, Daggerdrome Imp, or Tavern Swindler?

Thrill-Kill Assin looked like it has the best long term effect(high toughness and death touch), but a few of the other have either raw speed/damage(Rakdos Shred Freak, Gorehouse Chain Walker), or Avoidance(Knight of Infamy, Daggerdrome Imp), or a basic 2/2 body with an effect(for Tavern Swindler)

Chain-Walker and Knight are the best two, with Shred-Freak a little behind. Chain-Walker's definitely the hardest-hitting, and in BR aggro you generally don't care about blocking much. Knight's also hard-hitting, can help another creature get through blockers with exalted, and having pro-white is pretty handy both for offense and defense.

[Togath]

Chain walker was what I was leanign towards as well(since it's in both several high ranking rakdos decks, and in a lot of mono red ones).
Would it be worth getting a few copies of Assassin for my sideboard for if I need a more defensive/anti midrange creature?

[IthilanorStPete]

Chain walker was what I was leanign towards as well(since it's in both several high ranking rakdos decks, and in a lot of mono red ones).
Would it be worth getting a few copies of Assassin for my sideboard for if I need a more defensive/anti midrange creature?

No. For that role, go with Vampire Nighthawk.

[Togath]

Hadn't noticed the death touch ont hat one before, definitly looks like a good card then. Should I aim for two Gorehouse Chainwalkers and two Vampire Nighthawks in my main deck, with two of each in the side board?

[Ninjaman]

Hadn't noticed the death touch ont hat one before, definitly looks like a good card then. Should I aim for two Gorehouse Chainwalkers and two Vampire Nighthawks in my main deck, with two of each in the side board?

No, nighthawk is bad in your main deck,snd you want 4 chainwalkers maindeck.

[Togath]

How does this look as a decklist so far?;
Creatures:
Stonewright x2
Stormkirk Noble x2
Rakdos Cackler x4
Lightning Mauler x2
Gorehouse Chain Walker x4
Hellhole Flailer x2
Rix Maadi Guildmage x3
Knight of Infamy x2

Instants:
Brimstone Volley x2
Searing Spear x4
Thunderous Wrath x1
Rakdos Charm

Sorceries:
Pillar of Flame x4
Nightbird's Clutches x2
Devil's Play x1

Sideboard(Incomplete):
Vampire Nighthawk x4
Traitorus Blood x2
Grafdigger's Cage x1
Murder x3
vandalblast x3

I'm also not sure what to put for lands(I have one M10 B/R land, and could max out evolving wilds or Rakdos guildgates, I also have four crossguild promenades and two seraph sanctuaries) .

[Lea Plath]

For BR. Couple of good cards to consider.

-Gravecrawler
-Diregraf Ghoul
-Geralf's Messanger
-Hellrider
-Falkenrath Aristocrat
-Thundermaw Hellkite

Then for sideboard
-Sever The Bloodline
-Slaughter Games
-Vampire Nighthawk

These cards work well togther because they swarm well and turn sideways quickly for Hellrider's effect, meaning you can race midrange decks and ignore that all important first Thragtusk.

But your deck looks like it would be better as red deck wins. If you drop the black splash, you could add

-Ash Zealot (An RR Hastey 2/2 first striker who hates on the graveyard)
-Vexing Devil (Either 4 damage for R or a 4/3 attacker for R. Only downside, they have to choose)

If I was you, I would run these these cards.
Stonewright
Stormkirk Noble
Vexing Devil
Rakdos Cackler
Lightning Mauler
Ash Zealot
Gorehouse Chain Walker
Searing Spear
Brimstone Volley


If you want I can dig up some top RDW and BR Aggro decks for you

[Togath]

RDW looks fun, and I do have more of the cards for one then I do for B/R(I already have a few vexing devils, and could probably get a hold of a few ash zealots fairly easily)

[Lea Plath]

Aye, and RDW should work quite well if turned into Boros deck wins or Gruul decks win as you can do a lighter splash (8 green or white sources or 12 even) and gain access to some important human cards.

RB Aggro needs a heavier black splash for early drops IMO. You want a first turn Swamp etc.

[Ninjaman]

I don't think you want to play vexing devil in RDW as you already have your 1 drops in stromkirks cacklers and stonewright

[Togath]

Aye, and RDW should work quite well if turned into Boros deck wins or Gruul decks win as you can do a lighter splash (8 green or white sources or 12 even) and gain access to some important human cards.

RB Aggro needs a heavier black splash for early drops IMO. You want a first turn Swamp etc.

Gruul sounds fun, and green has a lot of interesting cards, and I do like the color combination. Once Gatecrash is out there will be extra support for it as well


I don't think you want to play vexing devil in RDW as you already have your 1 drops in stromkirks cacklers and stonewright

What would be a good replacement then?, Despite being 1 drop vexing devil is a pretty good card as far as I can tell(1 mana for either a 4/3 body or a 4 damage burn spell, depending on which your opponent chooses).
If I do go G/R...Spiked Baloth then? Deadbridge Goliath might be a decent green creature as well.
Elvish Archdruid could be good for ramping as well.

[Ninjaman]

What would be a good replacement then?, Despite being 1 drop vexing devil is a pretty good card as far as I can tell(1 mana for either a 4/3 body or a 4 damage burn spell, depending on which your opponent chooses).
If I do go G/R...Spiked Baloth then? Deadbridge Goliath might be a decent green creature as well.
Elvish Archdruid could be good for ramping as well.

As i said you have enough in stonewrights, stromkirks, and cacklers, you don't need more 1 drops than that.

[Togath]

But, why? I feel like it's a stupid question, but I'm having trouble understanding.
Not trying to be argumentative, I just feel like I'm missing something.
Is there some advantage that high cmc creatures have over low ones?
edit: ah, forgot about the number of cards in a deck, swarming with 1 mana cards doesn't help if I run out of cards before I win.
Related: is it worth keeping Stonewright and Stormkirk Noble?
How do these look as possible higher mana creatures?;
Archweaver(5/5 with trample and reach)
Bladetusk Boar(3/2 with intimidate)
Bloodfray Giant(4/3 with trample and unleash)
Duskdale Wurm(7/7 with trample)
Festerhide Boar(3/3 with trample and [morbid] add two +1/+1 counters)
Moldgraf Monstrosity(8/8 with trample and [death trigger] return two creatures at random from your graveyard to the battlefield)
Pathbreaker Wurm(6/4 with [soulbound] pathbreaker wurm and soulbound creature have trample)
Soul of the Harvest(6/6 with trample and [creature you control enters the battlefield] you may draw a card)
Spiked Baloth(4/2 with trample)

also, casual format just means cards from any set can be used, correct?

[Lea Plath]

Related: is it worth keeping Stonewright and Stormkirk Noble? Stromkirk Noble is a pretty defo keep, IMO. He swings in and gets bigger. Stonewright depends on taste and if you want his firebreathing effect. Some decks run him as a buffer. Some don't. Up to you
How do these look as possible higher mana creatures?;
For a RDW deck, you don't want any of this stuff really. Too high a cost for an aggro deck.
For a GR aggro deck, I would suggest looking at the werewolves. With Immerwolf and the Werewolf support cards, you can build a cheap and pretty powerful aggro deck.
Personally, for high cost bombs in GR (in the 4-5 range) I would wait for Gatecrash. It will defiantly have some good GR stuff but what kinda GR deck do you want to build? I could help you make a shell now..
Archweaver(5/5 with trample and reach) Too expensive manawise
Bladetusk Boar(3/2 with intimidate) Possible but unsure if the cost/intimidate does much in such as colour rich format
Bloodfray Giant(4/3 with trample and unleash) Possible but not a great 4 mana drop compared to something like Hellrider
Duskdale Wurm(7/7 with trample) Too expensive manawise
Festerhide Boar(3/3 with trample and [morbid] add two +1/+1 counters) Too expensive for what it is
Moldgraf Monstrosity(8/8 with trample and [death trigger] return two creatures at random from your graveyard to the battlefield) Too expensive and doesn't help you too much
Pathbreaker Wurm(6/4 with [soulbound] pathbreaker wurm and soulbound creature have trample) Not great
Soul of the Harvest(6/6 with trample and [creature you control enters the battlefield] you may draw a card) If you were to build a GR deck that is less aggro focused, more rampy. A more fun build over competitive, this is a reasonable card.
Spiked Baloth(4/2 with trample) Only really good for limited

also, casual format just means cards from any set can be used, correct?
Yep. No ban list, but play a deck that won't make you lose all your friends :P (Like my friends "I make you all play a different deck" combo)

Answers in bold and red.


And the deck lists I promised. All pretty bog standard for RDW. Depending on your meta, you might want more or less flames or more or less pillars.
http://www.mtgdecks.net/decks/view/41715
http://www.mtgdecks.net/decks/view/40769
http://www.mtgdecks.net/decks/view/42491

[Dr.Epic]

Hey folks. I'm a bit of a Magic newb: I learned how to play in high school and played for about a year, I didn't play again until sophomore year of college, I don't play that often now, and I only have 2 completed decks, both mono-colored: all red and all black. I hoping to get back into the game. I got two questions:

1. I'm working on a five color deck. I have a few really good cards that require one of each mana. I know they're really hard to make and execute. I'm just wondering what are some good tips. I had some artifacts that require just any mana, not color specific. Should I go ahead and throw some of those in?

2. Have any of you ever made a deck where there were no spells with a mana cost of only one? Or, in other words, the lowest mana cost for any spell in your deck was at least two? I'm wondering because when I first started playing the game, it was in this school club that a bunch of my friends start. A friend made me a green-black deck, and the lowest mana cost there was two. I'm just wondering if this was horrible deck he made me.

[Sith_Happens]

Mana Burn was removed in 2010 edition, I think.

It used to be that if you had un-used mana when one of your phases ended, you took damage equal to the amount of mana floating.

Also back then, mana only emptied at the ends of phases, not of steps. Which made Radha, Heir to Keld (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=128949) even more awesome.

[Nerocite]

Hey folks. I'm a bit of a Magic newb: I learned how to play in high school and played for about a year, I didn't play again until sophomore year of college, I don't play that often now, and I only have 2 completed decks, both mono-colored: all red and all black. I hoping to get back into the game. I got two questions:

1. I'm working on a five color deck. I have a few really good cards that require one of each mana. I know they're really hard to make and execute. I'm just wondering what are some good tips. I had some artifacts that require just any mana, not color specific. Should I go ahead and throw some of those in?

2. Have any of you ever made a deck where there were no spells with a mana cost of only one? Or, in other words, the lowest mana cost for any spell in your deck was at least two? I'm wondering because when I first started playing the game, it was in this school club that a bunch of my friends start. A friend made me a green-black deck, and the lowest mana cost there was two. I'm just wondering if this was horrible deck he made me.

1. Mana fixing is very important, even for just dual colored decks. If you can, get lands/creatures/artifacts that can make colored mana.

2. Not having anything to do turn 1 can suck, but I could see it working.

[Sith_Happens]

1. I'm working on a five color deck. I have a few really good cards that require one of each mana. I know they're really hard to make and execute. I'm just wondering what are some good tips. I had some artifacts that require just any mana, not color specific. Should I go ahead and throw some of those in?

Yes, especially if some of those artifacts themselves generate and/or filter mana. Like this one (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247200), for instance.

Of course, the main trick to building a five color deck is dual-lands, dual-lands, and more dual-lands.


2. Have any of you ever made a deck where there were no spells with a mana cost of only one? Or, in other words, the lowest mana cost for any spell in your deck was at least two? I'm wondering because when I first started playing the game, it was in this school club that a bunch of my friends start. A friend made me a green-black deck, and the lowest mana cost there was two. I'm just wondering if this was horrible deck he made me.

Depends on the deck. If it was supposed to be a slower deck with more big-mana threats, then you can live without a turn-one play. If it relied on smaller creatures to win, then some of them needed to be for one mana.

[Fable Wright]

Hey folks. I'm a bit of a Magic newb: I learned how to play in high school and played for about a year, I didn't play again until sophomore year of college, I don't play that often now, and I only have 2 completed decks, both mono-colored: all red and all black. I hoping to get back into the game. I got two questions:

1. I'm working on a five color deck. I have a few really good cards that require one of each mana. I know they're really hard to make and execute. I'm just wondering what are some good tips. I had some artifacts that require just any mana, not color specific. Should I go ahead and throw some of those in?

2. Have any of you ever made a deck where there were no spells with a mana cost of only one? Or, in other words, the lowest mana cost for any spell in your deck was at least two? I'm wondering because when I first started playing the game, it was in this school club that a bunch of my friends start. A friend made me a green-black deck, and the lowest mana cost there was two. I'm just wondering if this was horrible deck he made me.

One of my friends lives and breathes 5-color decks. He cannot play a deck with less than 4 colors in it, and I have to say, watching him play it has been rather informative about how to fix mana bases. The original deck he ran was heavy on Fertile Grounds, Harrows, Coalition Relics, Birds of Paradise, Trace of Abundance, and Shard lands (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?action=advanced&set=|[%22Shards%20of%20Alara%22]&type=+[%22Land%22]&text=+[enters]+[the]+[battlefield]+[tapped]) from Shards of Alara, and Mirrodin's Core. He also now runs a few Sakura-Tribe Elders and Yavimaya Elders, for additional color fixing. Needless to say, the decks ran a lot of green. It ramps up fast, and plays ridiculous mutlicolored cards, usually based around giving him card advantage to make up for the cards he plays to fix his mana. Glint-Eye Nephilim with Knight of New Alara out is one of his favorite things, as is Havengul Lich and Karador, Ghost Chieftain. He's also able to hardcast Progenitus most of the time he draws it, when I don't cripple his mana base. That's probably the cheapest way to get a reliable 5-color mana base. The other way is to buy a bunch of expensive fetchlands and shocklands to fix your mana while investing the fewest possible cards in doing so.

As for question number 2, in the deck I mentioned above, there is only one card that person plays with converted mana cost one, and that's Birds of Paradise. Usually, he spends turn 1 playing a Mirrodin's Core or a land that enters the battlefield tapped, and then plays ramp cards, fixers, and huge threats in quick succession. (Turn 1: Birds. Turn 2: Bloom Tender. Turn 3: Wall of Denial, Lightning Angel. Turn 4, Fusion Elemental and Knight of New Alara.) For slower, casual G/B decks, that might not be so bad. I'd have to see a list, but decks without CMC 1 cards can be done well.

[Togath]

After tonight's fnm(managed to make it to third out of ten this time) I've been wodering how some of the trades I made this time aroud are;
Giant Caterpillar (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=20847)x1(a foil in this case) for Chaos Imps x1 and Skull Rend x2
and; Mizzium Morters x1 for Elvish Archdruid x1

I also found out the guy who made the agel of serenity trade last time has no idea of it's value... which while ot as good as givig it back(I didn't have the heart to say to him "yes, it's a valuable card, now give it back", escpecially since he had already found someone wating to trade for it.....trade about 30 cents worth for it...)

[Lea Plath]

Decks with no 1CMC cards do work. They are generally called Midrange decks and win by card quality, not card quantity.

At the moment, most midrange decks tend to go:
Turn 1: Shockland
Turn 2: Land, Farseek, Fetch a shock.
Turn 3: Land, Farseek or dropping their first creature or planeswalker (Jace, Garruk Relentless)
Turn 4: Thragtusk, Tamiyo or another bomb.

Also! Simic's guild mechanic has been revealed! http://24.media.tumblr.com/753cac0cf80fbc574ed5f12d7cca9f60/tumblr_mff0m2iE4b1qc6u9ro1_500.jpg

Does anyone here want to point out the obvious uses and less obvious uses for this, or shall I?

[Lea Plath]

After tonight's fnm(managed to make it to third out of ten this time) I've been wodering how some of the trades I made this time aroud are;
Giant Caterpillar (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=20847)x1 for Chaos Imps x1 and Skull Rend x2 Not a big loss but why did you want that card? o.o It is just bad.
and; Mizzium Morters x1 for Elvish Archdruid x1 Mizzium is 2.5 dollars. Elvish is 1 dollar. If you traded for the Mizzium, you did well.

[Togath]

Darn.
At least they don't seem to be doing it on purpose, the guy who traded me a while back for serenity angel was saving it for a guy(who evetually did arrive there) to trade for a packrat and a havoc festival, and he wanted the caterpillar for his own deck(which already had three no-foil ones).
And the fm was free to enter, so I did't lose any money by trading one of the two cards I got away.

[Androgeus]

So some another card from the next set has cropped up in a RTR pack. (http://imgur.com/JnpUz)

Evolves looks like it will be a good mechanic. I can see green just using it to make guys bigger, and blue using the +1/+1 counter as fuel for abilities. Also green is more likely to proc off power and blue from toughness

[Istari]

Hey folks. I'm a bit of a Magic newb: I learned how to play in high school and played for about a year, I didn't play again until sophomore year of college, I don't play that often now, and I only have 2 completed decks, both mono-colored: all red and all black. I hoping to get back into the game. I got two questions:

1. I'm working on a five color deck. I have a few really good cards that require one of each mana. I know they're really hard to make and execute. I'm just wondering what are some good tips. I had some artifacts that require just any mana, not color specific. Should I go ahead and throw some of those in?

2. Have any of you ever made a deck where there were no spells with a mana cost of only one? Or, in other words, the lowest mana cost for any spell in your deck was at least two? I'm wondering because when I first started playing the game, it was in this school club that a bunch of my friends start. A friend made me a green-black deck, and the lowest mana cost there was two. I'm just wondering if this was horrible deck he made me.

I love running Spirit of Resistance (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=22968) in my 5-color sliver deck. Reasonably easy to get the effect and force them to deal with it.

[Fable Wright]

Rules question: If you do open a card from the next set in a draft, can you run it in your deck?

[Xiander]

Rules question: If you do open a card from the next set in a draft, can you run it in your deck?

I think this is a grey area.

Technically anything in your packs should be fair game. On the other hand, the card being there at all i a mistake.

My personal solution would be to either get the player in question a new pack, or allow him to run the card. It seems unfair that a player should be punished for at mistake that was not his.

Edit: Gatecrash just got even more promising. I love the simic guild, so them having such a cool keyword mechanic really makes me joyful :smallsmile:

Editedit: I so hope This is not a fake.

[Fable Wright]

I think this is a grey area.

Technically anything in your packs should be fair game. On the other hand, the card being there at all i a mistake.

My personal solution would be to either get the player in question a new pack, or allow him to run the card. It seems unfair that a player should be punished for at mistake that was not his.

I doubt that it's a mistake- it takes a bit of deliberation to put a card from the next set that isn't printed yet into a pack, and do it for two sets in a row, especially given that this hasn't happened before.

[IthilanorStPete]

I think this is a grey area.

Technically anything in your packs should be fair game. On the other hand, the card being there at all i a mistake.

My personal solution would be to either get the player in question a new pack, or allow him to run the card. It seems unfair that a player should be punished for at mistake that was not his.

Edit: Gatecrash just got even more promising. I love the simic guild, so them having such a cool keyword mechanic really makes me joyful :smallsmile:

Editedit: I so hope This is not a fake.

It's not a grey area, the card couldn't be played. I forget what the precise solution would be, though I'm sure one of the other judges here will post it soon. Anyways, if you find a card in a pack that shouldn't be there, call a judge and sit tight.

[Elvaris]

From the M:tG Tournament Rules (http://www.wizards.com/ContentResources/Wizards/WPN/Main/Documents/Magic_The_Gathering_Tournament_Rules_PDF1.pdf):

7.3 Card Use in Limited Tournaments
...
Other than basic land, only cards from the expansions of the boosters opened (and only cards opened in that player’s pool) may be used in a player’s deck. For example, in a Magic 2013 Sealed Deck tournament, any card in a booster other then the Magic 2013 game cards received by the player and basic land may not be used in a player’s deck during that tournament.

So, no. You do get to KEEP the Gatecrash cards in your boosters, but you don't get to play with them. This was an issue during Zendikar limited. Somewhere. Other than in any boosters I saw opened.

No, I'm not bitter about a total lack of priceless treasures.

Not at all.

Really.

[IthilanorStPete]

From the M:tG Tournament Rules (http://www.wizards.com/ContentResources/Wizards/WPN/Main/Documents/Magic_The_Gathering_Tournament_Rules_PDF1.pdf):


So, no. You do get to KEEP the Gatecrash cards in your boosters, but you don't get to play with them. This was an issue during Zendikar limited. Somewhere. Other than in any boosters I saw opened.

No, I'm not bitter about a total lack of priceless treasures.

Not at all.

Really.

And there's the rules quote I was expecting. :smalltongue:

[Sinfonian]

I had a great experience at FNM yesterday. Usually I just go and play Commander with the people who don't play in the tournament, joined by people who drop out during the night. However, my store did something special for Christmas: free FNM entry for everyone. And since the number of other people for Commander was barely enough to play a game, I decided to pull out my only standard-legal deck and join in the fun. The store clerk was shocked to see that I, of all people, was joining in.

I played a RW Humans deck that was based off of a draft deck I'd built and turned into a casual 60 card deck. My official record was 2-3 (one opponent gave me the match because he had to leave early), though I actually only fairly won 1 match. I actually did better than anticipated and beat 4 of my opponents at least once (in the fifth I had mana problems both games).

I had a great deal of fun, and was lucky with the door prizes: I got one of the Gitaxian Probe promos as well as $11.50 in store credit. I think I'll make some time to participate again in the future. Even if I didn't do well at all in the playing, I enjoyed myself.

Edit: Favorite deck that I played against was a 12/21/2012-appropriate land destruction deck. Cloudshift/Restoration Angel/Roaring Primadox with Acidic Slime was rough, but actually fairly effective.

Edit2: Favorite thing I did that night: Goldknight Commander on table, play Thatcher's Revolt and Kessig Malcontents. Deal 5 damage, then swing for 21 past his tapped creatures. Good times. Closely followed by naming Thragtusk with Nevermore.

[Dr.Epic]

Yes, especially if some of those artifacts themselves generate and/or filter mana. Like this one (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247200), for instance.

Probably should have mentioned this, but all those colorless artifacts are equipment. Should I still go ahead and put them in there? I'd need there to be a lot of creatures. One is mana force mace which has Domain so that's definitely in my five colored deck. One reason I'm hesitant about putting these artifacts in there is because I've heard things about artifact decks, and I might want to build one.

[Togath]

I've also been interested in artifact heavy decks, since they seem fairly rare.
The Simic mechanic also looks like it will be fun, I might even go for a Simic box over Gruul at the prerelease, depending on what the Gruul one turns out to be.

[Dr.Epic]

I've also been interested in artifact heavy decks, since they seem fairly rare.

Do you recommend blue, white, or blue-white? I've been looking through my cards and there are some very good cards that'd be useful in an artifact deck that are white or blue.

[Penguinizer]

It varies on what you want to do with the deck. Most are either Blue or White (or a combination). Blue-White is probably the best combination for it (outside formats where Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas is legal). I'd say colors are largely a situational thing in decks like that.

[Giegue]

My casual artifact deck is mono blue and works great. White/Blue would work awesome too, though. Black/Blue is also not as bad as you may think and Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas makes the combo worth it. Mono white is also possible though mono white is usually a beatdown/aggro deck built around tempered steel or equipment.

Also, the Simic mechanic looks pretty cool. Now we just need to find out the Orzhov one. The Orzhov where always my guild and I sure hope their awesome in gatecrash.

[Lord Seth]

I don't think you want to play vexing devil in RDW as you already have your 1 drops in stromkirks cacklers and stonewrightI've said it before and I'll say it again: Vexing Devil is not a 1-drop. It's a Lava Spike+1 that sometimes becomes a creature if your opponent wants it to. If you're running Vexing Devil in a slot because you want a 1-drop creature, you're doing it wrong.

[Togath]

That(the lava spike +1/sometimes a creature part) is the main reason I was thinking of using them. So it would be good in a burn/RDW deck for the purpose of acting as a burn, correct?

Also, I think I may have found an interesting combo in standard that can act as a quick win condition;
Summon a Palisade Giant, followed by using a Havoc Festival as soon as possible afterword, followed by using Rootborn Defense if your life is 15 or higher.

[Xiander]

Also, I think I may have found an interesting combo in standard that can act as a quick win condition;
Summon a Palisade Giant, followed by using a Havoc Festival as soon as possible afterword, followed by using Rootborn Defense if your life is 15 or higher.

That would not work, I think.
Palisade Giant prevents damage, Havoc festival deals out life-loss.
Damage is not the same as loss of life. Damage causes loss of life, not the other way around. As far as I know, creatures cannot loose life.

[Togath]

ah, darn.
Know of any cards which prevent life loss then?

[Thanatos 51-50]

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Vexing Devil is not a 1-drop. It's a Lava Spike+1 that sometimes becomes a creature if your opponent wants it to. If you're running Vexing Devil in a slot because you want a 1-drop creature, you're doing it wrong.

Agreed. Vexing Devil is not a one-drop. Vexing Devil is a slow Lightning bolt + which comes back when you cast Disentomb. For you astute/lucky readers, that's twelve damage by turn two.

[Xiander]

ah, darn.
Know of any cards which prevent life loss then?

The thing about life-loss is that it cannot be prevented.
Unless there is some very niche cards i don't know about.

[Androgeus]

The thing about life-loss is that it cannot be prevented.
Unless there is some very niche cards i don't know about.

Only thing that stops life loss is Platinum Emperion (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=215092)

[Xiander]

Only thing that stops life loss is Platinum Emperion (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=215092)

Ah, of course, i had forgotten that one. Or rather I was not aware of the exact wording. Nice catch.

[Ninjaman]

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Vexing Devil is not a 1-drop. It's a Lava Spike+1 that sometimes becomes a creature if your opponent wants it to. If you're running Vexing Devil in a slot because you want a 1-drop creature, you're doing it wrong.

It is a 1 drop, just like lava spike, even though it's bad.


Agreed. Vexing Devil is not a one-drop. Vexing Devil is a slow Lightning bolt + which comes back when you cast Disentomb. For you astute/lucky readers, that's twelve damage by turn two.

How twelve? You only cast the devil twice.

[Thanatos 51-50]

Right. Sorry. I fouled something up in my head-space.m

[Bucky]

Grand Melee is a multiplayer format with a very large number of players, but a limited Range; each player can only affect the players nearest himself. When a player loses, they leave the circle and the players nearest him have a new player in range.

One of the dominant strategies is to disable, but not kill, nearby players and set up an infinite combo. The combo will then let that player wipe out as many consecutive players as it takes to run into someone with disruption for it, or a better combo.

Therefore, I give you the Ultimate Grand Melee Combo, as performed in 4 stages.

Stage 1: Enter God Mode
1)Play Omniscience
2)Get an emblem from Tamiyo
3)Selectively draw all the spells in your deck by recycling a Preordain or similar card.
4)Use Elixir of Immortality with the Tamiyo emblem to gain a million life.

At this point, you have a never-ending supply of free counterspells, burn and infinite life. This should be enough against your average opponent; however, you are still vulnerable to a few things like graveyard hate and responses to the Tamiyo trigger.

Stage 2: Bootstrap your offense and defense
5)Cast Burning Wish, retaining priority.
6)Copy Burning Wish with Reverberate. Let the copy resolve, fetching a Sorcery of your choice from your trade binder, but hold priority after returning Reverberate with the Tamiyo emblem.
7)Having demonstrated (6) as a loop, fetch all the sorceries you think you need, including one copy of each wish.
8)Demonstrate (6) with each other wish in turn, putting your entire collection (that isn't a monocolored planeswalker) in your hand except for the lands in your library. This is assumed to include all cards mentioned later as well as at least 60 copies of Dissipate.

Stage 3: Deploy Defense and disruption
9) In no particular order, deploy the following cards as well as any others you feel are necessary:
Platinum Angel, Leyline of Sanctity, Avacyn, Privileged Position x2, Tajuru Preserver, Melira, Cauldron of Souls (in multiples), Laboratory Maniac, multiple Tamiyo emblems, Ground Seal (vs Extirpate), morphed Willbenders, Oblivion Ring on a second Omniscience, Fiend Hunter on a second Avacyn (legend rule insurance), Alchemist's Refuge (for redeploying defences off the backup Omniscience) and an arbitrarily large number of +1/+1 counters on all your creatures.
10) Also obtain a Grave Pact and a Venser emblem (along with some tokens as Venser target-sinks in case the opponent is all hexproof), and make sure you have Extirpates and Trickbinds in hand for the mirror, as well as Upheaval for otherwise unsolvable boards (you get your backup Omniscience, still have the Tamiyo emblem, and have activated Alchemist's Refuge before casting it).
11)Finally, if some strategy proves to be better than this one, deploy the cards for that strategy as well.

Stage 4: Offense
12) Deploy Phyrexian Altar, Murderous Redcap and Dralnu's Crusade in addition to the aforementioned Melira.
13)Put an Angel's Grace on the stack. Use Venser emblem to hit any relevant on-board disruption, then combo out by repeatedly sacrificing Murderous Redcap to Phyrexian Altar until all enemies are dead. Grave Pact and the Venser shot will probably take out all the relevant defense.

[tgva8889]

You can't get 1 copy of each Wish just by cycling Burning Wish. Cunning Wish is not a Sorcery, but an Instant. You can use Death Wish to get every card in your collection, however expensive it will be life-wise. Also, if you are playing Wishes in a Grand Melee, you better be sure the tournament allows you to actually get cards with them; many "tournaments" probably won't.

I'm not sure why you feel this needs so much in it.

[Penguinizer]

Ruleswise, most tournaments that allow a sideboard allow the wishes.

[tgva8889]

Ruleswise, most tournaments that allow a sideboard allow the wishes.

But not for your entire collection. Also, most Grand Melee tournaments don't allow sideboards on account of them not being useful since once you lose, you're eliminated and don't get to sideboard.

[Lord Seth]

Ruleswise, most tournaments that allow a sideboard allow the wishes.Most? I'd think every tournament that allows a sideboard would allow the wish cards, unless they're banned in the specific format of the tournament (e.g. Prismatic), which is a completely separate issue.

[tgva8889]

It's less allowing the Wishes and more which cards you're allowed to get with them. Most tournament formats only allow you to get your sideboard cards, limiting you to 15 options. Others tend to not allow you to actually get anything with them due to not having sideboards. If you are playing casual, it depends on which limits your friends are allowing you to reach.

[Lord Seth]

It's less allowing the Wishes and more which cards you're allowed to get with them. Most tournament formats only allow you to get your sideboard cards, limiting you to 15 options. Others tend to not allow you to actually get anything with them due to not having sideboards.Well, yes, but the thing is, it started with the supposition that the tournament allowed sideboards, so tournaments that don't have sideboards is irrelevant. My claim was that it seemed to me that any tournament that allowed sideboards would allow cards from them to be Wished for.

[tgva8889]

I have yet to encounter a Grand Melee tournament that allows sideboards, which was what I was talking about in context. I would assume that the Grand Melee combo above would not work in any Grand Melee tournament because I can't imagine a tournament that would allow you to bring your collection with you to activate your Wishes.

[Togath]

Something I just remembered to ask;
Is it rude to take a card from a colour I hadn't planned on using in a draft if that card is a very strong one?
My local shop is doing a lot of drafts next month, so I thought I would ask here to see opions on the subject.

[Fable Wright]

Something I just remembered to ask;
Is it rude to take a card from a colour I hadn't planned on using in a draft if that card is a very strong one?
My local shop is doing a lot of drafts next month, so I thought I would ask here to see opions on the subject.

Hate drafting, as it is known, is common and relatively acceptable. The person who wanted it would have been annoyed at you, but that's about it.

[Lhurgyof]

Grand Melee is a multiplayer format with a very large number of players, but a limited Range; each player can only affect the players nearest himself. When a player loses, they leave the circle and the players nearest him have a new player in range.

One of the dominant strategies is to disable, but not kill, nearby players and set up an infinite combo. The combo will then let that player wipe out as many consecutive players as it takes to run into someone with disruption for it, or a better combo.

Therefore, I give you the Ultimate Grand Melee Combo, as performed in 4 stages.

Stage 1: Enter God Mode
1)Play Omniscience
2)Get an emblem from Tamiyo
3)Selectively draw all the spells in your deck by recycling a Preordain or similar card.
4)Use Elixir of Immortality with the Tamiyo emblem to gain a million life.

At this point, you have a never-ending supply of free counterspells, burn and infinite life. This should be enough against your average opponent; however, you are still vulnerable to a few things like graveyard hate and responses to the Tamiyo trigger.

Stage 2: Bootstrap your offense and defense
5)Cast Burning Wish, retaining priority.
6)Copy Burning Wish with Reverberate. Let the copy resolve, fetching a Sorcery of your choice from your trade binder, but hold priority after returning Reverberate with the Tamiyo emblem.
7)Having demonstrated (6) as a loop, fetch all the sorceries you think you need, including one copy of each wish.
8)Demonstrate (6) with each other wish in turn, putting your entire collection (that isn't a monocolored planeswalker) in your hand except for the lands in your library. This is assumed to include all cards mentioned later as well as at least 60 copies of Dissipate.

Stage 3: Deploy Defense and disruption
9) In no particular order, deploy the following cards as well as any others you feel are necessary:
Platinum Angel, Leyline of Sanctity, Avacyn, Privileged Position x2, Tajuru Preserver, Melira, Cauldron of Souls (in multiples), Laboratory Maniac, multiple Tamiyo emblems, Ground Seal (vs Extirpate), morphed Willbenders, Oblivion Ring on a second Omniscience, Fiend Hunter on a second Avacyn (legend rule insurance), Alchemist's Refuge (for redeploying defences off the backup Omniscience) and an arbitrarily large number of +1/+1 counters on all your creatures.
10) Also obtain a Grave Pact and a Venser emblem (along with some tokens as Venser target-sinks in case the opponent is all hexproof), and make sure you have Extirpates and Trickbinds in hand for the mirror, as well as Upheaval for otherwise unsolvable boards (you get your backup Omniscience, still have the Tamiyo emblem, and have activated Alchemist's Refuge before casting it).
11)Finally, if some strategy proves to be better than this one, deploy the cards for that strategy as well.

Stage 4: Offense
12) Deploy Phyrexian Altar, Murderous Redcap and Dralnu's Crusade in addition to the aforementioned Melira.
13)Put an Angel's Grace on the stack. Use Venser emblem to hit any relevant on-board disruption, then combo out by repeatedly sacrificing Murderous Redcap to Phyrexian Altar until all enemies are dead. Grave Pact and the Venser shot will probably take out all the relevant defense.

If you managed a Tamiyo ultimate and an omniscience, then your opponents aren't doing their job.

[Togath]

Hate drafting, as it is known, is common and relatively acceptable. The person who wanted it would have been annoyed at you, but that's about it.

a related question; should I come up with which sort of deck to aim for ahead of time, or wait until I've looked at my first pack, and had a pack passed to me before deciding?

[memnarch]

a related question; should I come up with which sort of deck to aim for ahead of time, or wait until I've looked at my first pack, and had a pack passed to me before deciding?

Have an idea of what sorts of decks are typically possible if you like, you can try and aim for a specific deck you'd like, but realize that the cards you get passed may tell you to go with a different strategy.

[Togath]

Ok.

also;
The Orzhav, Gruul and Boros mechanics have been released/discovered (http://www.mtgsalvation.com/gatecrash-spoiler.html) :smallbiggrin:.
another not listed there yet is Treasury Thrull(screencap below);http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/7629/gatecrash1.png
edit: nevermind, looks like it was added, it is neat that they've started spoilers though.

[GodGoblin]

Howdy folks!

Ive been looking at getting a playmat and would like to get a custom one done, Ive heard great things about Inked Playmats but the UK delivery is $20 on top of the $20 for the mat itself.

Just wondering if you guys know of any good custom playmat makers here in the UK or international with a cheap delivery?

This style of sectioned mat is what im after- http://www.inkedplaymats.com/products/enter-the-redzone

[Sith_Happens]

Gatecrash:
Darn, they're making Gruul into a mid-range guild, aren't they? And here I was hoping for some nice things for my RG Aggro decks.

[Togath]

Green does already have several good ramp cards, so it's less midrange then most midrange, it will be interesting to see if they add more ramp cards in gatecrash.

[Lhurgyof]

I was thinking of making an Orzhov EDH deck and this ability is PERFECT for it!

Man Wizards, you sure know how to make the cards good.

[Thanatos 51-50]

Ok.

also;
The Orzhav, Gruul and Boros mechanics have been released/discovered (http://www.mtgsalvation.com/gatecrash-spoiler.html) :smallbiggrin:.
another not listed there yet is Treasury Thrull(screencap below);http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/7629/gatecrash1.png
edit: nevermind, looks like it was added, it is neat that they've started spoilers though.

Simic was the first one spoiled on their Facebook page, you must have missed that.
This just leaves... Dimir.

[Fable Wright]

Gatecrash:
Darn, they're making Gruul into a mid-range guild, aren't they? And here I was hoping for some nice things for my RG Aggro decks.

MaRo said that all of the guilds would have two playstyles, didn't he? There's the midrange plan, and then there's the aggro plan. Discarding a card for +X/+X screams aggro to me, especially with cheap tramplers. Still slower than Boros, though.

[Science Officer]

MaRo said that all of the guilds would have two playstyles, didn't he? There's the midrange plan, and then there's the aggro plan. Discarding a card for +X/+X screams aggro to me, especially with cheap tramplers. Still slower than Boros, though.

Hmm, I hope there's a Dimir playstyle that doesn't involve milling...
The Gruul mechanic does seem very aggro. The two creatures we've seen for them have been more expensive and slower, but it would be foolish to make conclusions on the guild from only two cards...

[Thanatos 51-50]

MaRo said that all of the guilds would have two playstyles, didn't he? There's the midrange plan, and then there's the aggro plan. Discarding a card for +X/+X screams aggro to me, especially with cheap tramplers. Still slower than Boros, though.

More likely, the buff is equal to the discarded creature's P/T, which gives gruul an impressive number of combat tricks.
Okay, it's the same combat trick over and over, but it's a good trick and they can pulll it off a lot.

[Science Officer]

Gatecrash Spoiler:
http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/daily/special/gtc_card_preview/wm_l6qt6jxefc_01.png
Well, it doesn't involve mill (unless it's on milling cards), but Dimir having a mechanic that requires attacking is a bit disappointing. Rather flavourfully appropriate, though. Maybe I just don't like Dimir.

[Thanatos 51-50]

Gatecrash Spoiler:
http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/daily/special/gtc_card_preview/wm_l6qt6jxefc_01.png
Well, it doesn't involve mill (unless it's on milling cards), but Dimir having a mechanic that requires attacking is a bit disappointing. Rather flavourfully appropriate, though. Maybe I just don't like Dimir.


Maybe it's just the way my mind works, but I can see this card in particular working excellently in a milling deck, especially if your opponent runs lots of draw cards and/or you run Elixir of Immortality/some other recursion.
Or Hellbent which, y'know, is always a thing. Drop it on your Tormented Soul/Invisible Stalker, Force him to draw a new hand every turn, rapidly diminishing both the size of his library AND forcing him to drop many potentially-useful counters.
Drop it on Crosstown Courier for added shenanigans, and run it with Chronic Flooding/Destroy the Evidence, maybe?
Of course, there's always Laboratory Maniac and self-milling, too.

[Togath]

Gatecrash Spoiler:
http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/daily/special/gtc_card_preview/wm_l6qt6jxefc_01.png
Well, it doesn't involve mill (unless it's on milling cards), but Dimir having a mechanic that requires attacking is a bit disappointing. Rather flavourfully appropriate, though. Maybe I just don't like Dimir.


how does it work though?, It mentions targeting a creature in the reminder text, but doesn't say the mechanics of that part.
edit; wait, is the "encoded" supposed to be "encode"?

[tgva8889]

To above:
There's no missing targets: the effect of Cipher apparently does not target anything. And it's definitely meant to be "encoded" by my reading. Basically this functions similar to Haunt in that the card exiles itself on a creature (except Haunt targeted as a trigger while this does it without targeting as part of the resolution of the spell), but instead of having some additional Haunt effect with some additional trigger condition, Cipher just causes you to cast the encoded spell again when the encoded creature deals combat damage to a player.

I believe it doesn't target so that the spell can't get countered. Since this spell doesn't have any other targets (and I can imagine other Cipher spells might not either), it could be countered for lack of legal targets if Cipher targeted and your opponent killed the encoded creature in response.

[Togath]

Ah(never had seen an "exile onto [card type] card before"[because I’ve only been playing for about three months] before so I didn't know what that meant). Seems like a very potent ability potentially then.
Also; does it mean copy, as in "the same card, but a different copy from your hand" or a copy in the sense of "copy" like used in spitting image or pack rat?

[IthilanorStPete]

Ah(never had seen an "exile onto [card type] card before"[because I’ve only been playing for about three months] before so I didn't know what that meant). Seems like a very potent ability potentially then.
Also; does it mean copy, as in "the same card, but a different copy from your hand" or a copy in the sense of "copy" like used in spitting image or pack rat?

The latter sense. Within the game, that's what copy will always refer to; to refer to a "copy" in the former sense, the text will refer to "cards with the same name". See Sphinx of the Chimes (http://magiccards.info/rtr/en/52.html) for an example.

[Togath]

Ah, definitely a very potent ability then, at least if it ends up on good cards(though even a lot of lackluster cards could be pretty decent if you could cast them repeatedly and for free as long as you can manage to deal damage)

[Giegue]

The Orzhov Mechanic definetly looks like a lot of fun, though I don't know how much it will effect standard it will certainly see play in EDH and other multiplayer formats. As for Cipher, I find it a flavorful, but OOD mechanic for House Dimir. The Dimir where all about control in the original ravnica block yet Cipher is more of a mechanic for a creature-based strategy with lots of evasion then a control strategy which is what was favored by the Dimir in the original Ravnica block. However, what Cipher DOES provide is an non-control deck that I'd actually not mind playing. Watery Grave is too hard for me to come by, but I have a full playset of drowned catacomb already from when I ran U/B Infect, and if Orzhov control doesn't work out for me then I'll probably switch sides to House Dimir as I always have fun with "you can't block me" + a side of control strategies, and Cipher only makes that kind of deck better.

Also, the Azorious got a wrath variant. If the Orzhov don't get one I will be sorely disappointed and sadly unable to play the Orzhov control deck I dream of making as without an Orzhov Wrath W/B will have NO good board-wipe options other then Terminis, which is not even that great a board wipe to began with. Oh, and as an interesting point....in the original Ravnica Block Maro said they actually considered reprinting Vindicate as an Orzhov card. RTR thus far has given us a LOT of powerful, versatile multi-color removal at rare. Do any of you think that this ups the chance we MAY see Vindicate reprinted in Gatecrash as the Orzhov's Dreadbore or Abrupt Decay?

[Togath]

something I just thought of; do you suppose you can pay the Orzhav ability's cost more then once per activation, or is it like exalted where it can only be done once per card with it on the field?