[Pathfinder] Need help making around my party

[Red1086]

So here is the deal. I am new. Hello!

Here is the second deal. Me and some friends just started a PF campaign, and we are all, well, kinda really new and rusty. We had a real rough time with his first setting and he gave us the option to re-roll our characters since we now have a better grasp as to how things are gonna go.

So, the party make-up now is going to be something along these lines. We have a Gunslinger, a Rogue that is more RP, with a dash of combat/dungeoning, a Witch, and I don't know what the last player is going to re-roll as.

And then there is me. Seeing as we don't have anyone to kinda get in the way, I guess, I was thinking of going some kind of melee. But what would be decent with that group comp?

I was originally gonna go switch-hitter ranger, but DM just laughed and said you'll be dead fast. So now I want something survivable and up front to defend the light/medium armor peoples.

Please, help! :(

EDIT: Also, no 3rd party stuffs, just paizo.

[Blyte]

you didn't say the level, you are starting at so I'll just suggest some concepts

human paladin
feats-
1 fey foundling
1 combat reflexes (use a pole arm)
3 power attack
5 extra lay hands
7 extra lay hands
....
extra land hands...


human monk (master of many styles) strength build
feats
1 crane style 1
1 crane style 2
1 dodge
2 crane style 3
3 dragon style 1
...
from here on shoot for dragon style 2 and snake style to 3, combat reflexes, and power attack
...
level monk to 8 and then swap to fighter(brawler) to 3

you will be making them miss once per turn and taking 3 very potent counter attacks on them.. then on your turn you can finish them off with a full attack

[Deathkeeper]

You could try Magus, melee unit that can cover the few magic bases the Witch can't. Gets Medium armor early and Heavy Armor eventually.
But if you want to go more sturdy, Cleric or Paladin are always solid choices. Remember that unless the last guy rerolls a healer/divine caster, you don't have one, so you should consider that option. Cavalier could also work, but it requires some finesse to make it actually viable. If your party isn't trying to be optimized, though, they could be fun.

Another option is Summoner. The summoner can go ranged while the Eidolon swings, making you a double-hitter instead of a switch-hitter. Or just have them flank for each other/the rogue. The Eidolon can get some decent AC going if you work on it.

[Arbane]

Barbarian, maybe?

[Wise Green Bean]

All you're missing is melee and divine support. Paladin(or Oradin) is nice for some combat healing for the party. A cleric wouldn't hurt you, good mix of melee and some more healing(though you do have a witch, she might have healing covered). Druid with a more tankish flavor is always nice.

If you're satisfied with what you have is terms of magic and don't care too much if you have a divine caster, a barbarian is always good for some plain old fashioned melee fun times.

[Red1086]

Thanks for the responses everyone. I appreciate it. I was thinking about just rolling a S&B Fighter, but not sure now. Now, to respond to you all, maybe clearing stuff up.

@Blyte, We are stating at level 2. I was thinking of Pally, Monk not so much. Pally, I don't mind, but was worried about S&B Pally being threatening enough and the fact that we wont always be fighting "evil" creatures.

@LordDeathkeeper, To be honest, I didn't consider either one of those classes, Magus or Summoner. I didn't realize Magus got Heavy Armor, or had the straight up toughness to stand toe-to-toe later on. As for the Summoner, would the Eidolon be tough enough later on if we lack a true melee blocker?

Paladin are the same concerns above. But now the Cleric, I assume I would have to take Heavy Armor Prof to stand up front, and the armor doesn't affect spell casting. But again, how do I remain threatening up front, while still getting feats that don't gimp me?

@Arbane, I looked at Barb, have played a Barb before, and enjoyed it. But I was kinda hesitant on the Armor availability factor and focusing THF, means lack of shield. The DM made it sound like I would die upfront without a shield.

@Wise Green Bean I had considered that those two slots were the only ones missing. Same concerns for both were mentioned above, but the other thing that just came to mind about clerics is all the time spent pre-buffing. That seems to just slow everything down. Also, I read in PF that Druids pretty much must be caster, sans companion, or Wild Shape with companion, and it is harder to balance both roles.


All right. I hope that answered and gave you some more input. Like I said, I was considering fighter, but not knowing what the last member is going to roll has kinda made me think about the divine caster option for support. I highly doubt our witch is gonna go support.

Thanks again, and any more responses would be wonderful.

[Deathkeeper]

The Eidolon gets Natural AC on a regular basis, which you can boost even more with an Evolution point here and there. They CAN wear armor, but the odd anatomy will make it pricey, and the fact that they'll probably be growing limbs every few levels would force you to have it refitted often, which means it's much easier to just give them Bracers of Armor. While this means they won't be as tough as a Fighter with +3 Full Plate, the Eidolon's true value is that it is almost completely disposable. If it dies, you can get it back with a level 2 spell for several minutes, and it will be fine tomorrow with the normal ritual summon, albeit needing some healing. And if you're worried about it dealing damage, go quadraped for Pounce. With Pounce, DR is pretty much the only thing you need to worry about. It is, however, worthy to note that you have to share magic item slots with your Eidolon, so you'll have to be careful with your equipment.
There is also an Archetype (in Ultimate Magic, I believe) called Synthesist, which basically makes your Eidolon a battle-suit, and you yourself go into melee using it for your physical stats, and it takes damage for you until it dies, in which case you're left as just yourself. I personally prefer the normal approach, but this one's pretty neat as well.
Oh, and the Summoner's spell list is all support spells. And he gets some, like Haste, before any other class in the game.

One more thing: tanks don't work in PF. If you try to be only a tank, you will fail. The enemies can and will just walk around you, and AC is practically worthless unless it's all you focus on in the late teen levels on since every enemy gets like +20 to hit. This has been told to me a few times, and judging from my first PF campaigns, it's mostly true, unfortunately. Your party will appreciate a Cleric that can take a hit much, much more than a Fighter that can TRY to get the other enemies to aggro him. Your party will be flanked eventually, and then your whole purpose collapses. So while it's good to be as tough as possible, you shouldn't pick or deny a class solely because it doesn't have the same AC as a fighter.

That being said, I had one more idea while typing that. Have you ever seen the Oradin build? Oracle+Paladin, every turn gives a few health points to allies, heals self with LoH as Swift action, and then keeps swinging/tanking right in the front like everyone else, instead of heal-botting.

[Arbane]

@LordDeathkeeper, To be honest, I didn't consider either one of those classes, Magus or Summoner. I didn't realize Magus got Heavy Armor, or had the straight up toughness to stand toe-to-toe later on. As for the Summoner, would the Eidolon be tough enough later on if we lack a true melee blocker?

Eidolons can be VERY tough. More importantly, if they get killed, it doesn't stick, and the Summoner can crank out mini-meatshields in the meantime.



@Arbane, I looked at Barb, have played a Barb before, and enjoyed it. But I was kinda hesitant on the Armor availability factor and focusing THF, means lack of shield. The DM made it sound like I would die upfront without a shield.


Your game will certainly be different from the one I've got a Barbarian in, but in my experience, you can generally kill most foes before they can kill you. Yes, you'll get hit more often than a Fighter, but that's what d12 hit-dice are for.



All right. I hope that answered and gave you some more input. Like I said, I was considering fighter, but not knowing what the last member is going to roll has kinda made me think about the divine caster option for support. I highly doubt our witch is gonna go support.


If you want to do divine support and melee, look at the Oracle. Battle, Metal and Ancestors are all good Mysteries for additional whupass, and Life's got some nice tricks for t3h h33l0rz.

[Dissonance]

Don't know how odd this would be, but my friend has pulled this off with hilarious results in our low op game.

He is basically Playing an Oracle with the metal mystery. The race he picked was Catfolk with the fleet alt. His concept is basically gallivanting around with a 50 move spd in full plate. He also got has the run feat, letting him sprint up to 200 ft. A round. In full plate. Combat wise, he relies on a shield for his defensive options and his claws for offense. It is truly a bit ridiculous.

[Red1086]

If you want to do divine support and melee, look at the Oracle. Battle, Metal and Ancestors are all good Mysteries for additional whupass, and Life's got some nice tricks for t3h h33l0rz.

I didnt realize Oracle could be some kinda melee/meat shield. I thought they were all drugged out casters. I am going to look into that.


That being said, I had one more idea while typing that. Have you ever seen the Oradin build? Oracle+Paladin, every turn gives a few health points to allies, heals self with LoH as Swift action, and then keeps swinging/tanking right in the front like everyone else, instead of heal-botting.


I have never heard of that, but then again, I have only ever played with Core Classes. How would one work that out in a build while leveling from level 2? And what benefits does it have over plain Oracle or Paladin, considering you lose your level 20 feat by multiclassing.

EDIT: Also, just found out the last player is rolling a Monk. So the line up is: Archer Rogue, Gunslinger, Witch, Monk, and me, which is why I am here.

[jmelesky]

For any questions about the Oradin, I recommend checking the mini-guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=257365). It's very thorough, and has room for quite a bit of customization.

[Deathkeeper]

I didnt realize Oracle could be some kinda melee/meat shield. I thought they were all drugged out casters. I am going to look into that.

I have never heard of that, but then again, I have only ever played with Core Classes. How would one work that out in a build while leveling from level 2? And what benefits does it have over plain Oracle or Paladin, considering you lose your level 20 feat by multiclassing.

EDIT: Also, just found out the last player is rolling a Monk. So the line up is: Archer Rogue, Gunslinger, Witch, Monk, and me, which is why I am here.

Well, first off, I think you mean level 20 class feature, you don't get a feat at level 20. Plus the Paladin's isn't even that great.
But the reason Oradin is supposed to be good is because you can heal without actually using any standard actions, which the Paladin normally has to, and has the HP to actually use the "HP Battery," which the Oracle doesn't necessarily have, and the Oracle doesn't have the armor/weapon proficiencies that the level in Paladin gets.

[DrDeth]

Pally with Hospitaler archetype, Selective channel, maybe extra channel. What are your stats?

You can tank like mad, heal yourself with a swifty, heal the entire party without provoking, and fun RPing.


Don’t multiclass if you’re new.

[Red1086]

Pally with Hospitaler archetype, Selective channel, maybe extra channel. What are your stats?

You can tank like mad, heal yourself with a swifty, heal the entire party without provoking, and fun RPing.


Don’t multiclass if you’re new.

Haha, I have to admit, its been so long I might as well be new. I was looking at the Oradin and most of it.. might as well been gibberish. :(

From looking through other classes and reading the suggestions here, I am beginning to think Pally may just be the simplest way to go. At least for this campaign.

And an update about the group once more. The Witch is sticking mainly to debuffs. The Monk is just gonna, welp, Monk. The Rogue is still going Archery. And the Gunslinger just wants to shoot things and hit on girls.

EDIT: Sorry, forgot to asnwer your question. Stats are 4d6, drop lowest and reroll any 1's. The other thing is I dunno if the DM is gonna have us fighting as many Evil things as a Paladin will be useful for. But the heals and armor are worth the wasted Smite Evil I spose.

[Eldariel]

Druid, Cleric, Summoner and Oracle would be my choice in about that order. I do think you need a heavy duty caster in this slot to compensate for the relative lack of magic in the rest of the party, and many casters can double as very effective frontliners (or they provide you with very effective frontliners in case of Summoner/Druid, and in some cases such as Synthetist or just good stat Druid can be both).

[Red1086]

Okay, so I was messing around with character creation and was looking at you all mentioning Druid. I looked at Treatmonks guide, and did a little different, to try to keep a tank in the game.

Hows this look for a caster druid with Animal companion for meat shield instead of geting +1 spell per level?

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=476597

Um, I know its only 4 spells at max instead of 5, but the utility of having an animal companion and summoning nature's ally to absorb hits while I can cast seems nice. I don't think our monk will be able to take many hits.

Paladin is still up there for me, but I like the idea of druids more(albeit I like the Wildshape concept more, but its a worse caster).

[Deathkeeper]

Your build seems fine, but considering your monk will get hurt often, your mage is squishy, your rogue isn't built for combat, and the Gunslinger will be off to the side, the your melee units will be taking damage from most of the enemies in a straight-up fight, and the Druid's limited healing ability might not cut it.

[Red1086]

Your build seems fine, but considering your monk will get hurt often, your mage is squishy, your rogue isn't built for combat, and the Gunslinger will be off to the side, the your melee units will be taking damage from most of the enemies in a straight-up fight, and the Druid's limited healing ability might not cut it.

See, thats the tough spot I have been stuck in. Go something tanky and our group is without heals. Go something healy, we lack a real tank like melee. I was thinking druid and pet would be a nice mix.

Only other thing really is if I figure out clerics and tanky/heal or do pally and tanky/suck heal. Oradin is out cause I am way to rusty.

[grarrrg]

Sad to hear that about the Oradin...


See, thats the tough spot I have been stuck in. Go something tanky and our group is without heals. Go something healy, we lack a real tank like melee. I was thinking druid and pet would be a nice mix.

Anywho.
There are three equivalent/better options than Druid+Pet.
_ALL OF THEM_ can Spontaneously cast Cure spells (the main loss of going Druid).

Cleric with either the Animal (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/cleric/domains/paizo---domains/animal-domain), or Scalykind (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/cleric/domains/paizo---domains/scalykind-domain) domains gets a Companion with a penalty (-3 levels Animal, -2 Scalykind). Clerics have Channeling (area healing) and can Spontaneously cast Cure spells. And the Pet Penalty can be offset with the Boon Companion (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/boon-companion) feat.

Oracles are Spontaneous casters that automatically learn all the Cure spells. And Oracles of Nature (www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/oracle/mysteries/paizo---oracle-mysteries/nature) can get a Mount (Animal Companion in all but name, restricted choices). And the Nature's Whispers Revelation lets you use CHA instead of DEX for AC, so you can semi-dump DEX and wear Medium Armor (does not get Heavy Prof, no Revelation for it).

Witch with the Hedge Witch (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/witch/archetypes/paizo---witch-archetypes/hedge-witch) archetype. While technically an Arcane Caster (INT-based, prepared spells), Witches have a fair number of Cleric/Healing-ish spells on their list, and the Hedge Witch lets you Spontaneously convert any spell into a Cure spell. Instead of a Companion, you get a Familiar.

[Eldariel]

Your build seems fine, but considering your monk will get hurt often, your mage is squishy, your rogue isn't built for combat, and the Gunslinger will be off to the side, the your melee units will be taking damage from most of the enemies in a straight-up fight, and the Druid's limited healing ability might not cut it.

Druid's healing is frankly more than enough. He can use Wands of Cure Light Wounds and that's really all you need; in-combat healing's necessity can be negated by control spells and Druid brings those in spades, better than any other Divine caster. And Druid eventually learns Heal so you're fine. Casting Cure-spells is basically a last resort anyways so you aren't missing much.

If someone truly goes low enough in combat to need in-combat healing, they can just back off. Druid adds more to the frontline (Animal Companion with a simple Barding is tougher than most PCs, and then you add Druid's buff magic; and then he has spontaneous Summons too) than just about any other class and he provides potent control magic to make enemies unable to do damage so he should be the perfect addition to the party. Druid is indeed the only class that does everything you need here from arcane magic to divine magic, from frontliners to healing.


Oh, and Druid's Animal Companion can be replaced for free if it dies which helps a lot with frontliners.

You could switch your Str and Dex around if you're interested in being a frontliner with Wildshape yourself. You can eventually get Dragonhide Fullplate anyways so your "low" Dex isn't that big of an issue in the long run.

Btw, do your stats there account for the +2 Racial bonus from Human?

[Red1086]

I dunno if I can stat myself well enough to wildshape, cast, and do all the hubbub. I mean, those were my stat rolls. I mean, I can def give it a go if its feasable, but I know feats are gonna be limited.

Also those stats are before the +2 bonus, I have not placed them yet.

[Eldariel]

I dunno if I can stat myself well enough to wildshape, cast, and do all the hubbub. I mean, those were my stat rolls. I mean, I can def give it a go if its feasable, but I know feats are gonna be limited.

Also those stats are before the +2 bonus, I have not placed them yet.

Your stats are really good. You can do both, definitely. All you really need is good Str, Con and Wis. Put the +2 racial to Wisdom as you're primarily a caster, especially early on, and put all the level-up points to Wisdom too. Flip Strength and Dex around and you're good to go.


Dexterity is nice but not obligatory since Armor exists. While Druids can't wear Metal Armor, they can use Dragonhide versions of the heavier armors so you'll eventually be able to outfit yourself with a nice Dragonhide Fullplate (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/special-materials#TOC-Dragonhide) (they're cheap too, only twice as expensive as a normal mundane so you can get a Dragonhide Fullplate for ~3k) and eventually have it enchanted with the Wild (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-armor#TOC-Wild)-property (it's a +3 property and magic armor needs +1 enhancement as a basis so it'd be a total of a +4 investment; you can look towards it around level ~8 earliest or more likely level 10 or so).

Note, you can also have a Wild Shield even later which makes you very hard to hit indeed, combined with the Natural Armor from Wildshape and the various Deflection- and Natural Armor bonuses you can acquire. The good part about the Wild enhancement is that while Wildshaped, those items just provide you with the protection; you no longer need a hand to use the shield and you don't receive armor check penalties or anything so overall, you get all the protection with none of the drawbacks.


Note, even before Wildshape, as soon as you can get a decent suit of armor on (Dragonhide Breastplate might be a nice middle step while saving for the Full Plate), you're a respectable melee warrior especially if you use the spell "Shillelagh".

It's also worth considering any of the Shaman-archetypes. Lion Shaman in particular is really solid since there's no time Large Cat form is bad for combat, and you can fly with Air Walk starting level 7 anyways. Bear Shaman and Wolf Shaman are likewise really solid for combat uses in specific, but cats have Pounce which increases your frontline damage manyfold since you can full attack round 1.

EDIT: Nvm, PF Bears start small?! Okay, yeah, that's not worth it. You want a Medium creature from level 1 so you get the massive Large-size bonuses.

[Deathkeeper]

EDIT: Nvm, PF Bears start small?! Okay, yeah, that's not worth it. You want a Medium creature from level 1 so you get the massive Large-size bonuses.

I'm glad I'm not the only one baffled by that ruling. Last time I checked, Bears are not the size of wolves.

[Eldariel]

I'm glad I'm not the only one baffled by that ruling. Last time I checked, Bears are not the size of wolves.

Even a black bear is easily bigger than a human, not to even mention brown bears... That's just dumb. Well, if I was a DM I'd houserule the **** outta that. There's no way a brown bear is smaller than a horse or a tiger. If playing by RAW tho I guess the only real option is not picking Bears... FU PF.

[Red1086]

Your stats are really good. You can do both, definitely. All you really need is good Str, Con and Wis. Put the +2 racial to Wisdom as you're primarily a caster, especially early on, and put all the level-up points to Wisdom too. Flip Strength and Dex around and you're good to go.


Dexterity is nice but not obligatory since Armor exists. While Druids can't wear Metal Armor, they can use Dragonhide versions of the heavier armors so you'll eventually be able to outfit yourself with a nice Dragonhide Fullplate (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/special-materials#TOC-Dragonhide) (they're cheap too, only twice as expensive as a normal mundane so you can get a Dragonhide Fullplate for ~3k) and eventually have it enchanted with the Wild (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-armor#TOC-Wild)-property (it's a +3 property and magic armor needs +1 enhancement as a basis so it'd be a total of a +4 investment; you can look towards it around level ~8 earliest or more likely level 10 or so).

Note, you can also have a Wild Shield even later which makes you very hard to hit indeed, combined with the Natural Armor from Wildshape and the various Deflection- and Natural Armor bonuses you can acquire. The good part about the Wild enhancement is that while Wildshaped, those items just provide you with the protection; you no longer need a hand to use the shield and you don't receive armor check penalties or anything so overall, you get all the protection with none of the drawbacks.


Note, even before Wildshape, as soon as you can get a decent suit of armor on (Dragonhide Breastplate might be a nice middle step while saving for the Full Plate), you're a respectable melee warrior especially if you use the spell "Shillelagh".

It's also worth considering any of the Shaman-archetypes. Lion Shaman in particular is really solid since there's no time Large Cat form is bad for combat, and you can fly with Air Walk starting level 7 anyways. Bear Shaman and Wolf Shaman are likewise really solid for combat uses in specific, but cats have Pounce which increases your frontline damage manyfold since you can full attack round 1.

EDIT: Nvm, PF Bears start small?! Okay, yeah, that's not worth it. You want a Medium creature from level 1 so you get the massive Large-size bonuses.

Thank you for the encouragement. I think this is what I will do. Do my nature magics, Wildshape with my Companion and kick bum, then shift out and heal up if needed.

You all have been such a great help. I really do appreciate it. One last thing is, as a wildshape/caster druid, how does one split feats without gimping yourself?

[Eldariel]

Thank you for the encouragement. I think this is what I will do. Do my nature magics, Wildshape with my Companion and kick bum, then shift out and heal up if needed.

You all have been such a great help. I really do appreciate it. One last thing is, as a wildshape/caster druid, how does one split feats without gimping yourself?

Combat doesn't really require feats; you get all the necessary stuff from Wildshape. Things like Vital Strike are worthless especially since you have access to Pounce and you don't need the combat maneuver feats since you have the natural combat maneuver abilities of the form you shift into.

You might want to invest a feat or two into it if you focus on a single form (e.g. if you focus on Wolf-forms, trip feats might just be worth it if you qualify) but overall you should have an abundance of feats to use for everything you want. Focusing further on a single combat style by adding feats for the relevant combat maneuvers is of course viable, too. Power Attack might be worth your while but that really depends on how high you can get your To Hit.


Just focus mostly on casting feats and Natural Spell. Note that Wildshape lasts hours/level so you want to maintain it as long as you can; of course, you might not be able to use Wands in the animal form due to lacking hands so you might need to shift back for that.