Am I choosing this PrC for a dumb reason?

[Dr.Epic]

So I was just randomly flipping through the ol' Book of Vile Darkness - what do you do at 3 in the morning - when I came to the prestige class section. I was just randomly giving each class a cursory glance over. Looking at requirements and class abilities. Interesting fact: a lot of them have human sacrifice as a requirement? Can you believe human sacrifice in a book called Book of Vile Darkness?:smallwink:

Anyway, I get to disciple of Mephistopheles and I see the requirements are actually pretty simple: any evil and BAB +6. Yeah, not that hard. In fact, I've probably made a few character that met those without even trying. Anyways, these simple requirements sparked an interest in me to read over the entire class. I mean, like I said, it isn't too difficult to meet the requirements so maybe I'd like to play one. It's not like I'd have to invest a lot of skill points and feats into a class I later decide I don't want to join.

So I'm looking over the class features and I see the level three ability and I squee in joy:


Hellfire Blast (Su): A 3rd-level disciple of Mephistopheles can release a gout of hellfire from his hand at will, dealing 4d6 points of fire damage as a ranged touch attack. The range for this attack is 30 feet.

I mean, am I the only one that thinks this is awesome? let's review:
-At will. AT WILL! (that required a repeat because it's so awesome)
-Range touch attack, just touch which shouldn't be that difficult at that level
-4d6 damage, which if you take the average is...
((1+2+3+4+5+6)/6)x4
(21/6)x4
3.5x4
14 damage on average (speaking from a purely statistical perspective)

I don't know, am I overreacting? I mean, with a BAB requirement of +6, you'd get this ability at best level 9. Is 14 damage on average good at level 9? Better than a fighter or barbarian at that level wielding a non-magical weapon, though by level 9 you should have some powerful magical items. Plus, most casters by that level have spells that can deal more damage and have greater range, though, they can't cast them at will.

Sidenote: Since the text says "release a gout of hellfire from his hand" could I chop off my hand, throw it, and get a few more feet out of that ability? Or heck, could I put it in a box, gift it to someone as a gift, and ready an action to use Hellfire Blast once someone opens it? I could rules lawyer the heck out of this. Just have to hope my character has a means to regenerate. Wouldn't it suck if the DM was just as literal? You get your hands chopped off and nope. Or heck, it says HIS hand, so you get turned into a girl and no good.

So yeah, is this ability worth it, or rather is going this route worth it? I mean, the class has lots of other good things. An 8 HD which isn't bad, full BAB, and lots more class features (most of which are based around fire). And like I said, simple requirements so I don't have to spend lots of feats or skill points. Heck, the level 10 ability is pretty nice too. You can turn your whole body into flames gain fire immunity, DR 30/+1, and anything you touch catches fire (pending reflex save DC 15).

I'm not really ignoring any of the other class features except for one:


Fire Adept (Su): A disciple of Mephistopheles who can cast spells gains a +1 bonus to caster level when casting a spell with the fire descriptor.

I kind of don't see any need for this given a build I have in mind. Really, I want to be a base class with a full BAB so I can enter this prestige class level 7, and I can't think of any core spellcaster classes with fire spells that have this. Besides, it's only a +1 bonus. Not like I'm losing out on anything huge here.

There's just something about shooting an energy/fire attack at will that I think is so awesome. Tell me none of you didn't want this ability? It's so popular and awesome in cartoons: Yusuke Urameshi's Spirit Gun, Roy Mustang's flame attack, fire bending in general, and just about any given DBZ attack just to name a few.

So yeah, that's pretty much it. Is 4d6 range fire damage from 30 feet at will worth it at level 9? And also, if anyone knows any ways to...
-Increase distance (other than the ridiculous way I mentioned)
-Increase Damage
-Get a similar ability without being evil or even sooner
...Please let me know.

Bye, and thanks to anyone who read and posted back with feedback.

Edit: Apparently there are more requirements which I somehow missed, but they still don't seem two bad: two feats with no prerequisite and a special which isn't too difficult. So let me retcon: is it worth it with two feat slots and everything I've said?

[Wise Green Bean]

{Scrubbed} no. At the same level, wizards can use scorching ray for 8d6. They can do that 10 times a day if they feel like it, metamagic and all. Similar deal for fireball, 9d6 in a 20 foot radius. And these are generally considered low op things. 14 damage is piddily. At this level, barbarians can be throwing around more than a 100 damage per round.

[supermonkeyjoe]

If you're that excited about an at-will ranged touch attack then whatever you do don't look at the Warlock class, you might explode with joy.

[TuggyNE]

Fiery Burst reserve feat, maintain one [fire] spell of max level, you can do 5d6 fire damage in a small AoE at will all day. (And I believe you also get a CL boost.)
Mind you, that's pretty weak, but it's easily equivalent to the ability in question.

PsyWar 9, Psionic Shot + Fell Shot + Psionic Meditation, +1 collision mighty +4 composite longbow, ranged touch attack for 1d8+10 piercing damage as a full-round action at will. Plus, you get all those feats from your class bonuses.
Again, pretty weak, but stronger than the ability in question. (More damage, a generally more suitable damage type, etc.)

Warlock 9, 5d6 untyped as a ranged touch standard action at will.
Once again, superior and yet still underwhelming.

[Darth Stabber]

I feel like you might be trollin'.

I feel the same way. But just for the sake of conversation I am going to pretend this is serious. Not a terrible prc for gms to add to monsters (though cancer mage is better in most circumstances), the prereqs are easy and the abilities are generic enough that it can some pizazz (and cr) to otherwise boring encounters. Awkened raptor with a couple levels in disciple of meph could throw a party for a loop (interesting mental image either way)

If the game is very low op, I would consider it, though only on a base class with some extra damage abilities (like rogue). Even then straight warlock seems the better call. If there was a way to make iterative attacks with the ranged touch fire attack, we would have more room to talk. Maybe scout, so I can not feel bad about ignoring the difficulty of getting skirmish and a full attack?

[hoverfrog]

The prestige class tier system (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1573.0) gives the PrC a +1 rating. Pretty good though probably not for the reasons you give.

[Andreaz]

If you're that excited about an at-will ranged touch attack then whatever you do don't look at the Warlock class, you might explode with joy.Hehehe.
The other guys here are giving way too complicated examples!

A fighter with str 20 and a greatsword does 14 damage on average, at will.

[TheifofZ]

I do understand why you're excited by the idea.
The attack is, however, kind of weak at that level.
Yes, it does compensate for a fighter in full plate's slightly poor ability to skewer things at any range beyond right in front of him, but compared to what you can do with an average-stat character at 9th level, 4d6 is nothing overly impressive. The range is rather unimpressive as well.
I'm familiar with the class, and overall it's a decent PrC with enough bonuses to make it worth the levels for a fighter type, but the attack itself is meh.
----------------------
The main point of your question, though, was whether or not you're picking the PrC for that attack alone is a bad call. And as much as we can respond to your statistical averages with our own examples, and talk about optimizing and how to do even more at will and all that, we all know what it comes down to.
Do you think the ability to shoot a short ray of fire from your hand is cool enough to base an entire build off of? Isn't this game about adventure and exploration? Doing awesome things you could never do in real life?
If you want to have the fire from your hand, then go for it. It's really up to you.

[hoverfrog]

Hehehe.
The other guys here are giving way too complicated examples!

A fighter with str 20 and a greatsword does 14 damage on average, at will.But not at range.

Give him a strength bow and rapid shot though and he'll hit more often and do more damage. That's two feats right there that a human fighter can have at first level or a ranger at second with no feats.

[J-H]

The Pyrokineticist has a similar ability that scales up to 10d6 damage at level 15, with a 60' range.

[ThiagoMartell]

If you go in as a Duskblade, that +1 caster level nets you an extra scorching ray. That's about the only thing it's good for, I think.

[Talya]

Hmm. It says nothing about the action required for that. Seems to me that with iterative attacks and two weapon fighting, maybe throw rapid shot on there, you could manage quite a few of those in a round.

Still nothing amazing, but it's not terrible.

[ThiagoMartell]

Hmm. It says nothing about the action required for that. Seems to me that with iterative attacks and two weapon fighting, maybe throw rapid shot on there, you could manage quite a few of those in a round.

Still nothing amazing, but it's not terrible.

It's a supernatural ability, so it's a standard action by default.

[nedz]

My first thought was the Warlock invocation Disembodied Hand, but that is a lesser and so requires Warlock 6; also Eldritch Blast.

If it was an AoE then at least you could use it for Web clearing, but it isn't.

Does this class give you anything else ?

[Saidoro]

If you can talk your DM into letting you use it as an attack action it could be handy. I'd recommend a daring outlaw entry.

[Wyntonian]

Does it scale? Like, at all? Ever? No?

Welp.

[eggs]

14 damage per round is horrid.

[Answerer]

-At will. AT WILL! (that required a repeat because it's so awesome)
It's really not at all. Wizards massively overvalued things being at-will, and most of them are awful, including this. Having something at-will, particularly a only-useful-in-combat-direct-damage ability, is very close to meaningless.

The limiting factor on combat damage is actions, not your daily allotment of spells.

[TuggyNE]

Hehehe.
The other guys here are giving way too complicated examples!

A fighter with str 20 and a greatsword does 14 damage on average, at will.

This is loosely true, but melee attacks are strictly inferior to ranged touch attacks, all else being equal. Hence the extra work to show how it's not really very difficult to get better ranged touch attacks for less investment.

[nedz]

A 1 level dip might be good for a Monk, but that's probably the best that can be said for this class. This would give you +1d6 fire damage on all unarmed attacks.

Doesn't this PrC require the feat Disciple of Darkness as well ?

[Venger]

while not official, monte did answer questions.

http://okayyourturn.yuku.com/topic/6197/BoVD-Questions?page=1#.ULZztuOe9c1

his intent was 1/day/class level. for 4d6 at lvl 7 at the earliest, you're better off just going ahead and using it at will. as mentioned by others, it only deals 12 damage average, of the worst type, so will often be reduced/negated to less, and is only within 30 feet. this won't break any games, so go ahead and use it as an at-will