Epic Psionics

[ShadowFireLance]

Hiya!
Quick question:
Am I the only one that thinks that Psion/Warrior/Lurk/Etc PP per day should Increase with epic levels?
Personally, It seems kinda sad how you are a 29th level psion with ony 343 PP per day!
So Basically:
A) Is their a Formula that someone has made that increases PP per day at a rate that is Expandable for levels 30 and up?
B) Can someone make the above?

Thanks!

[TuggyNE]

Am I the only one that thinks that Psion/Warrior/Lurk/Etc PP per day should Increase with epic levels?

Probably not. However, note that spellcasters do not gain additional spell slots in epic levels either without spending feats for each one. So you could reasonably create a feat to mimic this, giving psionic classes a way to get more PP... oh wait, there already is a feat to do this, called Psionic Talent, and it even scales up with each time you take it!

Yeah, this is already a thing, as much as it should be at least. At most, you could create an Epic Psionic Talent, and have it start higher and scale faster, but whether that's necessary or sensible I'm not sure.

[Emperor Tippy]

Hiya!
Quick question:
Am I the only one that thinks that Psion/Warrior/Lurk/Etc PP per day should Increase with epic levels?
Personally, It seems kinda sad how you are a 29th level psion with ony 343 PP per day!
So Basically:
A) Is their a Formula that someone has made that increases PP per day at a rate that is Expandable for levels 30 and up?
B) Can someone make the above?

Thanks!

Take Improved Manifestation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#improvedManifestation), that gives you 19+(n*2) PP every time you take it (where n is the number of times you have already taken Improved Manifestation).

Use the Chaos Shuffle to turn pre-epic feats that you no longer need or want (such as Psionic Talent) into copies of Improved Manifestation and you are good to go. You can potentially get around 500 additional PP at level 21.

[Darth Stabber]

Use the Chaos Shuffle

That is so frequently your answer to things tippy. Of course it's usually the right answer.

[Emperor Tippy]

That is so frequently your answer to things tippy. Of course it's usually the right answer.

*shrug*
It's my recommended solution when it works. Just like Shapechange, Ice Assassin, Wish, and numerous other "broken" things are.

He wants more power points, he probably has feats that are no longer particularly useful or needed, he can turn them into more power points with ease, D&D already allows unlimited power points (as early as level 5 IIRC), it doesn't materially effect the power of the class in actual play, ergo I see no reason not to tell him how to do what he wants.

[AmberVael]

Probably not. However, note that spellcasters do not gain additional spell slots in epic levels either without spending feats for each one. So you could reasonably create a feat to mimic this, giving psionic classes a way to get more PP... oh wait, there already is a feat to do this, called Psionic Talent, and it even scales up with each time you take it!

Yeah, this is already a thing, as much as it should be at least. At most, you could create an Epic Psionic Talent, and have it start higher and scale faster, but whether that's necessary or sensible I'm not sure.

The significant difference between spellcasting and psionics is that often psionics require augmentation up to or near manifester level in order to remain effective. As such, as you progress into epic, the cost of your powers may effectively increase, while your power points remain the same.

Honestly, one very easy thing that could be done would be allowing bonus power points from ability scores to scale past level 20. The formula for that is already available (1/2 x manifester level x ability mod), it'd be a really simple matter to just say "your max manifester level for this purpose can be above 20."

[TuggyNE]

Take Improved Manifestation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#improvedManifestation), that gives you 19+(n*2) PP every time you take it (where n is the number of times you have already taken Improved Manifestation).

In other words, my suggested "Epic Psionic Talent" is already a thing as well (I don't know why I didn't notice that earlier).


Honestly, one very easy thing that could be done would be allowing bonus power points from ability scores to scale past level 20. The formula for that is already available (1/2 x manifester level x ability mod), it'd be a really simple matter to just say "your max manifester level for this purpose can be above 20."

They already do. The table, however, does not go any further for convenience of printing. Relevant quotes:
Your key ability score grants you additional power points equal to your key ability modifier × your manifester level ×½. Table: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Power Points shows these calculations for class levels 1st through 20th and key ability scores from 10 to 41. Because text trumps table, and because the wording implies that the table is not complete, there's no (non-epic) limitation on manifester level or key ability modifier.
No Epic Bonus Power Progression
Epic psionic characters do not gain additional bonus power points above 20th. They may still gain more power points as their key ability score increases. The wording here is confusing, and may be the source of your belief, but I'm pretty sure it's actually referring to no additional PP from classes. (If it isn't, that would presumably be the place to fix it.)

If I'm correct, then, this is just a long string of "yes, the reasonable suggestions are already in force, including those, and that's already done too." Kind of impressively competent, honestly.

[AmberVael]

They already do.

They don't. The wording and context is a lot clearer in the actual expanded psionics handbook. Check out the top of page 33, where it says they don't gain more from level and then specifically refers to the ability modifiers and power points table. You can gain more from your ability modifier increasing, but for this purpose, your effective Manifester Level is capped at 20.

[gomipile]

If you have both casters and psionicists in a party, is it fair that the casters get their spells to scale with caster level without spending any epic feats on them?

Granted, augmentation does increase save DC.

I'd say the real solution is to use an infinite power point trick. When your DM shoots that down, start using fully augmented powers as often as the casters use spells that scale well with caster level. When you start running dry early and putting the party in danger, maybe the DM will see sense and allow epic PP progression according to the formula.

[TuggyNE]

They don't. The wording and context is a lot clearer in the actual expanded psionics handbook. Check out the top of page 33, where it says they don't gain more from level and then specifically refers to the ability modifiers and power points table. You can gain more from your ability modifier increasing, but for this purpose, your effective Manifester Level is capped at 20.

Ah, I stand corrected. (In that case, yes, it's still easy to get rid of that.)


If you have both casters and psionicists in a party, is it fair that the casters get their spells to scale with caster level without spending any epic feats on them?

Honestly, given that a number of powers are still useful unaugmented, I'm not entirely sure this is a valid criticism. However, gaining bonus PP from high ability scores should improve the situation, pushing it to somewhere between "caster who doesn't auto-scale with CL but does get bonus spell slots from high ability scores" and "caster who auto-scales with CL as normal".

[gomipile]

Ah, I stand corrected. (In that case, yes, it's still easy to get rid of that.)



Honestly, given that a number of powers are still useful unaugmented, I'm not entirely sure this is a valid criticism. However, gaining bonus PP from high ability scores should improve the situation, pushing it to somewhere between "caster who doesn't auto-scale with CL but does get bonus spell slots from high ability scores" and "caster who auto-scales with CL as normal".

However, the situation discriminates much more against blasting than against heavy use of utility powers. Given the fact that utility is a lot stronger than blasting, that seems quite unfair to those who prefer the blasty style.

There are only so many actions per encounter, and a utility psionicist likely won't run out of PP in a day. Therefore, adding epic PP progression will help blasty psionicists a lot while not helping utility psionicists much.

[TuggyNE]

However, the situation discriminates much more against blasting than against heavy use of utility powers. Given the fact that utility is a lot stronger than blasting, that seems quite unfair to those who prefer the blasty style.

There are only so many actions per encounter, and a utility psionicist likely won't run out of PP in a day. Therefore, adding epic PP progression will help blasty psionicists a lot while not helping utility psionicists much.

Hmm, a valid point.

[Rubik]

Do note that power points don't scale with a psionic class that's gone past level 20, but you can still gain power points after 20th level -- without spending feats. Just take a second manifesting class, and its pp will be added to your pool. Wilder is good for this, since it also raises your ML (assuming you don't use Overchannel, anyway). Make sure you grab first level powers that are still useful in epic (such as Synchronicity -- or go ardent and grab higher level powers) and you won't have to worry about falling off the scale too much.

Also, there's the ring of epic psionics in the ELH (pg 135) for extra pp. If you can use Hyperconscious (a 3rd party sourcebook written by the the author of the XPH), you can make it dreamstained, which causes ability damage every day, BUT divides the price by 20, as its original base price is divided in two, and so it's not multiplied by 10 for being 200k or more. Thus, halved and divided by 10 = 1/20 the cost. Cheap!

The metamind PrC is also really good to get in epic, since the capstone allows you to get infinite pp for 1 minute. Combined with the Temporal Reiteration power (from CPsi) and you'll get infinite power points forever, so long as you use your swift action to manifest it. Craft a nice repeating trap or spell turret to get your swift actions back. Alternately, take 3 levels in illithid savant (from Savage Species) and eat a metamind's brain. (Don't worry; they weren't using it anyway, otherwise they wouldn't have taken levels in metamind pre-epic).

[Blue1005]

Just save time and send a PM to Psyren...




And, when it comes to my humble knowledge, you have separate pools of power points that are class dependent, so you cant add another class to get the points to use for the main one. That is like taking a level of wizard to power a 9th level sorc spell, doesn't happen.

[Darth Stabber]

And, when it comes to my humble knowledge, you have separate pools of power points that are class dependent, so you cant add another class to get the points to use for the main one. That is like taking a level of wizard to power a 9th level sorc spell, doesn't happen.

Nope, all powerpoints are pooled together.

[Rubik]

Nope, all powerpoints are pooled together.Correct. From the SRD:


The Power Point Reserve

Psionic characters fuel their abilities through a pool, or reserve, of power points. Your power point reserve is equal to your base power points gained from your class, bonus power points from a high key ability score (see Abilities and Manifesters, below), and any additional bonus power points from sources such as your character race and feat selections.

Multiclass Psionic Characters

If you have levels in more than one psionic class, you combine your power points from each class to make up your reserve. You can use these power points to manifest powers from any psionic class you have.

While you maintain a single reserve of power points from your class, race, and feat selections, you are still limited by the manifester level you have achieved with each power you know.

[Blue1005]

Then that seems like a glaring bout of illogicality.

[Rubik]

Then that seems like a glaring bout of illogicality.Except you have to spend power points to augment everything, as very few powers scale freely. Spells scale freely like you wouldn't believe.

Overall, it works remarkably well to do it as the rules state, so I don't think the term "illogical" applies here.

[gomipile]

If a level 20 Psion started taking levels in Wilder at epic, wouldn't his manifester level stay at 20?

[Rubik]

If a level 20 Psion started taking levels in Wilder at epic, wouldn't his manifester level stay at 20?That's why you have wild surge available. +1 ML, right there. Plus you can make up the difference on items (as CL/ML-boosting items are cheap, especially in epic) and feats (like Practiced Manifester). And if you get enough pp under your belt, you can use action economy breakage to cause some surreal amounts of damage even with a (relatively) low manifester level.

Until you hit level 50 or so, it's possible to do quite well with a ML of ~20, so long as you have access to 9th level powers.

[Psyren]

Just save time and send a PM to Psyren...

I'm flattered but there's nothing much for me to add here. The correct answers have been given - for the purpose of bonus PP your ML is capped at 20, regardless of how high it actually gets. Only by boosting your key ability modifier can you passively gain more PP in epic. You can actively gain more via the Improved Manifestation feat as Tippy suggested, or you can effectively gain more through a variety of cost reduction techniques (most notably Incarnum and Metapower.) And of course, there are feats (and items) that increase your ability scores (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#greatCharisma) for even larger gains. (This represents a tradeoff - at 20, you can either take Improved Manifestation for the formula Tippy mentioned, or you can take the ability score feats - each one effectively gives you only +5 PP, but also +1/2 DC and other potential benefits.)

A great way to "save up" PP is to manifest Soul Crystal at the end of every day, storing any powers you plan to use the following day, along with all your leftover PP. You will get all that PP back by resting, and the crystals store your ML at the time of creation (as well as up to ML*2 power points each.) What's truly great about this is that you can pass the crystals out to the entire party or even just your psicrystal, which they can use to manifest your powers at your ML but using their own actions. You can even hand out personal range and discipline powers for everyone to use (Team Solars, anyone?)

[Spuddles]

The significant difference between spellcasting and psionics is that often psionics require augmentation up to or near manifester level in order to remain effective. As such, as you progress into epic, the cost of your powers may effectively increase, while your power points remain the same.

Honestly, one very easy thing that could be done would be allowing bonus power points from ability scores to scale past level 20. The formula for that is already available (1/2 x manifester level x ability mod), it'd be a really simple matter to just say "your max manifester level for this purpose can be above 20."

When the ELH came out, all arcane spells had caps, usually capping at 25d6. To get around the cap requires a +4 la epic metamagic feat that raises the damage cap by 5 dice. Which means you need slots beyond 9th if you wanted more out of chain lightning or what have you, so you have to take epic spell capacity or whatever. With psionics you have to take improved manifesting.

[Aliek]

So would you say improved manifesting should increase your ML?

[Psyren]

So would you say improved manifesting should increase your ML?

Why? Your ML does increase in epic; It just doesn't for the purpose of calculating bonus PP. But your ability scores do, and every point of increase there is an additional 5 PP.

[Douglas]

BUT divides the price by 20, as its original base price is divided in two, and so it's not multiplied by 10 for being 200k or more. Thus, halved and divided by 10 = 1/20 the cost. Cheap!
Sorry, but the price threshold for epic items only makes it epic (and therefore requiring an epic crafting feat and epic manifester level). It does not trigger a price multiplier. The x10 epic price multiplier is only triggered by a bonus or effect that exceeds non-epic limits.

[Arcanist]

Why? Your ML does increase in epic; It just doesn't for the purpose of calculating bonus PP. But your ability scores do, and every point of increase there is an additional 5 PP.

Doesn't that powers chart expand infinitely? or is capped at 20?

EDIT:


Your key ability score grants you additional power points equal to your key ability modifier × your manifester level ×½.

meaning technically for advancing a manifesting class you do gain additional power points (unless of course it is capped at level 20).

[CIDE]

*shrug*
It's my recommended solution when it works. Just like Shapechange, Ice Assassin, Wish, and numerous other "broken" things are.

He wants more power points, he probably has feats that are no longer particularly useful or needed, he can turn them into more power points with ease, D&D already allows unlimited power points (as early as level 5 IIRC), it doesn't materially effect the power of the class in actual play, ergo I see no reason not to tell him how to do what he wants.

http://t.qkme.me/3ohueb.jpg

Teach me...

[AmberVael]

Teach me.
If you mean unlimited power points...
Look here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=177889)

You want to look at the MoI Recharge trick, Embrace of Mother Earth, and Power Surge.

[Darth Stabber]

If you are looking for the feat swapping, then your answer lies in two spells printed in fiendish codex 1. Embrace the dark chaos and shun the dark chaos. Embrace lets you trade one of your feats for any abyssal heritor feat for which you meet the prerequisites. Shun the dark chaos allows you to trade out one of your abyssal heritor feats for any non-abyssal heritor feat for which you meet the prerequisites. Both spells have a small xp cost that is negligible at higher levels. And that is what is known as the "chaos shuffle". It is much cheaper than using psychic reformation (in terms of xp), and faster than using the retraining rules presented in the phb2. It has some cheesy applications, even before factoring in epic feats, but by RAW it works.

[TuggyNE]

meaning technically for advancing a manifesting class you do gain additional power points (unless of course it is capped at level 20).

We already went through this exact quote and reasoning up-thread: it doesn't work.


They don't. The wording and context is a lot clearer in the actual expanded psionics handbook. Check out the top of page 33, where it says they don't gain more from level and then specifically refers to the ability modifiers and power points table. You can gain more from your ability modifier increasing, but for this purpose, your effective Manifester Level is capped at 20.

[Arcanist]

We already went through this exact quote and reasoning up-thread: it doesn't work.

I gladly stand corrected.

[CIDE]

If you mean unlimited power points...
Look here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=177889)

You want to look at the MoI Recharge trick, Embrace of Mother Earth, and Power Surge.

I meant all of it.


If you are looking for the feat swapping, then your answer lies in two spells printed in fiendish codex 1. Embrace the dark chaos and shun the dark chaos. Embrace lets you trade one of your feats for any abyssal heritor feat for which you meet the prerequisites. Shun the dark chaos allows you to trade out one of your abyssal heritor feats for any non-abyssal heritor feat for which you meet the prerequisites. Both spells have a small xp cost that is negligible at higher levels. And that is what is known as the "chaos shuffle". It is much cheaper than using psychic reformation (in terms of xp), and faster than using the retraining rules presented in the phb2. It has some cheesy applications, even before factoring in epic feats, but by RAW it works.

So simple...