[3.5] Human Paragon worth the -1 CL?

[BananaPhone]

Hey all,

Background reading:
So I'm making a char for a starting lvl 9 game this evening, and I had thought I'd got everything down. Human wizard/master specialist/fate spinner. Tally-ho.

However, I've been drawn to the idea of using the Human Paragon addition for all 3 levels. Normally a loss of a caster level would immediately drive me away. However, the +2 Int after 3 lvls is huge, as is the free feat. The things like choose any 10 skills, extra skill points and bigger Hit Die for 3 levels are just gravy. Plus it suits the char I'm playing, so fluff wise it's all good too. (I'm happy with my current build too, so ultimately it's coming down to mechanics and character effectiveness in a medium optimised setting)

...but loss of a single CL. No lvl 5 spells right off the bat. No teleport. No cloudkill. No draconic polymorph. No wall of stone, etc etc. It's a very difficult choice.

TL:DR version:
Is the loss of a caster level worth it in the case of the Human Paragon, given the +2 int and free bonus feat that they get on top of other goodies?

I know that the first rule of playing a caster is Thou shall never lose caster levels, but sometimes (rarely) it can be worth it, and that +2 int and free feat are really appealing.

Yay or nay?

(p.s I went back a couple of pages looking for a similar topic and couldn't find one, so forgive me if this has been addressed somewhere else)

[Acanous]

OK, so you're human and a Wizard, at lv 9. Your INT is probably 20, 22 with an item. +2 int is going to net you an extra 3rd level spell slot, an extra 7th down the line, and +1 to your DCs.
In the long term, that's going to help you out. The number of monsters who fail by 1 will increase as the game goes on. But in the short term? You're trading Wizard advancement for sorceror advancement, and we all know who comes out ahead there.

If you want to be nice to your DM, go for it. If you're in a mid-high op game, the loss of caster level isn't worth it. Low-mid though, you're still getting 9ths and doing it at the same time as a Sorceror, plus you get bonus feat and 2 int.

[Kelb_Panthera]

The idea behind "though shalt not lose caster levels" is that you want to hit CL 17 and get your 9th level spells before epic. The above quote just has a better ring to it than "thou shalt not lose more than three caster levels." Then, of course, there are classes that get 9th's at other levels, but almost always late in their progression, which means 3 isn't always the number you can afford to lose.

In answer to your orginal question though, yes. Human paragon is generally a good idea if you have a few levels in your build open or if you need to pick up certain class skills that otherwise wouldn't be on your list. It is definitely worth the one lost caster level as long as you still make 9th level spells by 20.

[Emperor Tippy]

A Grey Elf get's what are effectively 4 bonus feats and +2 Int with no loss in caster level.

That being said, giving up 1 CL for a bonus feat, +2 Int, extra skills, extra skill points, and extra HP isn't that bad. I mean it drops you down to the Sorcerers spell progression. It's not the end of the world but it's highly unlikely to be the optimal choice.

Anyways, Human Paragon 1/Wizard 1/Human Paragon 2/MS X/Fate Spinner X. That get's you the extra skill points at first level.

For skills I would choose Diplomacy, Forgery, Hide, Move Silently, Spot, Listen, Sense Motive, Tumble, Use Magic Device, and Use Psionic Device.

Probably spend the bonus feat on Able Learner, at least until you really need it (at which point Chaos Shuffle it out to something useful).

[Spuddles]

Every time I give up caster levels, I wish I hadn't. The difference between having 4th and 5th level spells is also really big. In my opinion, level 9 is where tier 1 actually shows up. Glitterdust and black tentacles are cool, but they won't hange the world like teleport will.

That said, if you're going to be playing long enough, it won't really matter except for losing some high level spell slots. The added versatility in skills, esp at level 9, will make up for it. While a wizard may have a spell for everything, it is very hard to always have every spell for everything. Maybe not hard, but probably involving next level cheese. Skill monkeying, in my experience, is fun and effective.

[JustPlayItLoud]

I'm currently playing in a pretty low-op game using this class. Currently I'm wiz 2/human paragon 3/mage of the arcane order 3. Even getting access to spells a level later than normal, I'm having no problem at all being the most powerful party member. When I'm not able to go, the GM runs this character as a blasty wizard, and when I attend I play him smart and he single-handedly ends encounters with the likes of slow, stinking cloud, and Evard's black tentacles. In this case though, the next most optimized characters are a warlock and a gestalt barbarian/adept (this game uses homebrew rules allowing characters to gestalt lower-tier classes), so it's not that surprising that a well-played wizard is so powerful.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I like it for gish builds to get a slightly better HD, skills and Bab. Most gish builds already loose CL so it isn't any different than dipping fighter or something

[BananaPhone]

Thanks guys for the responses. There have been some pretty compelling arguments in either direction. The way that I'm feeling at the moment is that if you know the campaign is going to be in for the long-haul the Human Paragon is worth the slower access to spells like a sorcerer. Whereas if the game isn't then you'd want the wizard progression because of its faster access to better spells.

Ultimately I got relieved of the burden of having to decide. Our party ended up with no party face, so the DM said I could have full caster progression under the condition that I gave up the Bonus Feat and used a number of those skill points to boost some social skills so that we had some alternative methods of conflict resolution.

Thanks again all for the responses - greatly appreciated!

[Suteinu]

Sorry I'm late, but I wanted to add: don't forget that you will probably have Magic Items to help take-up the slack. I find Rings and Staves particularly helpful in this way, especially if the Human Paragon maxes-out his UMI skill.



You did take UMI, didn't you?