LGBTAitp 29: the Rainbow Outreach Program

[PairO'Dice Lost]

So... On a more positive note, well...

Hmmm. I don't seem to have one.

Anyone have some good news to share?

I do, sort of. My boyfriend has been in Australia since August for study abroad, he's coming back in a week and will be spending Christmas and New Year's with my family, and then a week after that it's our one-year anniversary. Aside from the potential for awkwardness from the folks, I'm really looking forward to the next month and a half. :smallbiggrin:

[Lentrax]

That's definitely a positive. So happy you get to spend time with your BF.

:smallbiggrin::smallwink:

[the_druid_droid]

That, at least, seems to be only partially true with King of Fighters. Being one of the games I had unopened, I tried it. It has some really big males, but there is quite the variety in size and muscle-mass. In fact, half the cover is dedicated to this person (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ash_Crimson), whom I find seriously adorable. X3

Reading over this, I think I quoted the wrong thing, but I was going to say that while watching/playing with my friends through Blaz Blue, I was more interested in Noel as a character than her fanservice (though she does get some). Admittedly, it's only one data point, but I think they did an ok job of adding some dimensionality to the game beyond "scarcely clothed people beat on each other".


Blarg. Feelin' low this last week. Unrelated, but blah.

Sorry to hear it :smallfrown:


Also posted in Relationships thread but somewhat related to this too plus now I'm worrying too so yeah.

While the relationship stuff may be a factor in all this, it sounds like both of these individuals (particularly the one with tendencies to self-harm) could benefit from counseling. I know it isn't easy to get folks to listen when you bring up that subject, but I would encourage you to steer them in that direction, if possible.


I have no strong feelings one way or the other about neutral news.

:smallwink:

What makes a man turn neutral? Is it money? Power? Women? Or is he just born with a heart full of neutrality?


I should have asked, but I was feeling awkward. I really shouldn't have, 'cause I know no one there would judge, but I couldn't really help it. I always feel awkward when entering a new social environment. After I get used to it and get to know the way things work there I open up a lot, but in the beginning it's tough.

I'll try to find a time to go back and explore a little more.


~Phoenix~

If it makes you feel better, I think this is actually pretty common. I know I tend to be relatively social once I get to know people, but without a friend or acquaintance around as a social catalyst, it takes me a while to get over the initial hump of interacting with others.

[KenderWizard]

Totally did not see that ending coming :smallbiggrin:

I KNOW RIGHT?! :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin: Mind = blown!


*Hugs* Musashi and Kender*

I appreciate that. I like christmas, but I hate the time of year too. :smallannoyed:

*more hugs* I can understand that.


Also posted in Relationships thread but somewhat related to this too plus now I'm worrying too so yeah.

Bleh, that's a really sucky situation. I have been that lovesick person who wanted to confess love to a heterosexual same-sex friend. I didn't.

[Mina Kobold]

So... On a more positive note, well...

Hmmm. I don't seem to have one.

Anyone have some good news to share?

Uhm, I will soon be doing a pretty fun project that is making me super-nervous?

...

I am not good at having good news. ^_^'


I imagine that it's because it's easier to objectify a woman if she has a vagina. Less threatening than a penis. Penetration being feminizing and all that.

Eep, that sounds like a really scary mindset. ._.

*shudder*


...honestly, I feel that you're looking at this from the wrong direction.
I'm still on 'Holy god there was a trans character in a game from like before 2000'.

I know, but I really want them to be further ahead than this. It is amazing that they even had a trans character in the eighties, but that they still cannot make Poison just be trans is just sad. It is the 2010s, we should have gotten better by now. ;_;

Also, apparently Poison is originally from Final Fight, alongside similar character, Roxy. Was the first trans characters to appear in video games, so yay for firsts! ^_^

[noparlpf]

Look what I found. (http://heteroawarenessmonth.weebly.com/index.html)

[Mina Kobold]

Look what I found. (http://heteroawarenessmonth.weebly.com/index.html)

It does not appear to be a parody...

*A really-really-scary-thing has been detected and Brains has been shot down to prevent panicking the Kobold.

The problem seems to be caused by the File HAM_Look_What_I_Found

If this is the first time you've seen this fear error screen, shut down Kobold*

X_X

[noparlpf]

It does not appear to be a parody...

*A really-really-scary-thing has been detected and Brains has been shot down to prevent panicking the Kobold.

The problem seems to be caused by the File HAM_Look_What_I_Found

If this is the first time you've seen this fear error screen, shut down Kobold*

X_X

Man, this is not my week. Two blue-screens and several freezes for my laptop, and now I've crashed my best kobold.

[Astrella]

Look what I found. (http://heteroawarenessmonth.weebly.com/index.html)

Ugh, I wonder what's sadder, people doing stuff like this without realizing how offense it is or people doing it on purpose. :/

-----

Also I've been breaking my head over what message to send to a friend of mine about me being trans*. Any thoughts / hints?

[noparlpf]

Ugh, I wonder what's sadder, people doing stuff like this without realizing how offense it is or people doing it on purpose. :/

-----

Also I've been breaking my head over what message to send to a friend of mine about me being trans*. Any thoughts / hints?

"'Sup. I'm a woman."
As you may have noticed I do not have much experience with coming out. And coming out as asexual is very different from coming out as trans.
So, what is said friend's stance on transsexuality and whatnot? Can't really give a tailored suggestion without a smidge more info.

[Astrella]

"'Sup. I'm a woman."
As you may have noticed I do not have much experience with coming out. And coming out as asexual is very different from coming out as trans.
So, what is said friend's stance on transsexuality and whatnot? Can't really give a tailored suggestion without a smidge more info.

We've talked about queer rights before, but mostly in the abstract and not about transness. Pretty sure he wouldn't react badly, I'm mostly worried that it'll make stuff awkward between us.

[noparlpf]

We've talked about queer rights before, but mostly in the abstract and not about transness. Pretty sure he wouldn't react badly, I'm mostly worried that it'll make stuff awkward between us.

Try sounding it out a bit first. Like, ask if he knows anybody who's trans.

[The Succubus]

Man, this is not my week. Two blue-screens and several freezes for my laptop, and now I've crashed my best kobold.

If it makes you feel any better, I just laughed my demonic butt off. :smallbiggrin:

[KerfuffleMach2]

So... On a more positive note, well...

Hmmm. I don't seem to have one.

Anyone have some good news to share?

My youngest brother, who is gay, is having an awards ceremony next Tuesday. He's receiving his Eagle Scout award from Boy Scouts. Something that, apparently, only 4% of all Boy Scouts actually get.

So, that's pretty cool for him.

[supernerd]

My youngest brother, who is gay, is having an awards ceremony next Tuesday. He's receiving his Eagle Scout award from Boy Scouts. Something that, apparently, only 4% of all Boy Scouts actually get.

So, that's pretty cool for him.

2% I'll be getting mine by the time I have to start college applications. and it's better because he's gay, as long as being both gay and an eagle doesn't send him into the possible spiraling depression I'm afraid of, due to being an elite in an organization openly opposed to people of "my kind."

[noparlpf]

If it makes you feel any better, I just laughed my demonic butt off. :smallbiggrin:

Great, now I've broken you too. :smalltongue:

[PairO'Dice Lost]

My youngest brother, who is gay, is having an awards ceremony next Tuesday. He's receiving his Eagle Scout award from Boy Scouts. Something that, apparently, only 4% of all Boy Scouts actually get.

So, that's pretty cool for him.

Pass along my congratulations, from one Eagle Scout to another. :smallsmile:

Is he out to his troop, and if so how did his Board of Review go? I wasn't out to my troop about being gay, but they did know about my (lack of) religious belief, which the BSA also frowns on. Before I went through my Eagle Board my troop leaders said "The BSA's bigoted stance is BS, if they ask you questions about that just get around them without lying, don't let their bigotry prevent you from getting the award you earned," so I didn't have a problem with that, but I have a friend in another troop (also gay and non-religious) whose leaders didn't like it, told the BSA representatives for his Board, and prevented him from making Eagle.

[KenderWizard]

Look what I found. (http://heteroawarenessmonth.weebly.com/index.html)

This is a joke, right? A really awful joke? Please tell me it's a joke?


We've talked about queer rights before, but mostly in the abstract and not about transness. Pretty sure he wouldn't react badly, I'm mostly worried that it'll make stuff awkward between us.

Hmm. Well, I'd be inclined to just go for it. Emphasise that you're still the same person, still his friend, still the Astrella he presumably likes, and that this isn't a change for you, or something that's new, it's something that you're coming to terms with but that has always been there. Like something he happened to not know, but was always there. I'd also make time to do something together that's fun and normal, but gives him a chance to ask questions and talk if he wants to. When I came out to my best friend, and I was worried about similar things, this was how I went about it and we were walking together and chatting, which was normal and pleasant but it also meant we were alone and had time to address her questions.


My youngest brother, who is gay, is having an awards ceremony next Tuesday. He's receiving his Eagle Scout award from Boy Scouts. Something that, apparently, only 4% of all Boy Scouts actually get.

So, that's pretty cool for him.

That's awesome! I thought Boy Scouts had a sort of don't-ask-don't-tell thing going on, though?

[Lix Lorn]

If it makes you feel any better, I just laughed my demonic butt off. :smallbiggrin:
Ooh
(goes to find it)
:3

[monkyman640]

My youngest brother, who is gay, is having an awards ceremony next Tuesday. He's receiving his Eagle Scout award from Boy Scouts. Something that, apparently, only 4% of all Boy Scouts actually get.

So, that's pretty cool for him.

Yeah, I wasn't out to my troop either. And they didn't even ask about my religious beliefs because my troop was based out of a church. Does that make sense?

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Yeah, I wasn't out to my troop either. And they didn't even ask about my religious beliefs because my troop was based out of a church. Does that make sense?

My troop was sponsored by a Methodist church and I helped my dad usher at a Catholic church, so between both of those I was able to get around the "what religion are you?"-type questions.

[monkyman640]

My troop was sponsored by a Methodist church and I helped my dad usher at a Catholic church, so between both of those I was able to get around the "what religion are you?"-type questions.

Yeah, mine was sponsored by Mormons.

[KerfuffleMach2]

Pass along my congratulations, from one Eagle Scout to another. :smallsmile:

Is he out to his troop, and if so how did his Board of Review go? I wasn't out to my troop about being gay, but they did know about my (lack of) religious belief, which the BSA also frowns on. Before I went through my Eagle Board my troop leaders said "The BSA's bigoted stance is BS, if they ask you questions about that just get around them without lying, don't let their bigotry prevent you from getting the award you earned," so I didn't have a problem with that, but I have a friend in another troop (also gay and non-religious) whose leaders didn't like it, told the BSA representatives for his Board, and prevented him from making Eagle.

I think he may have come out to a couple of the leaders, and they're completely cool with it. They would have told him to just not bring it up during the board of review.

The district and council people don't like our troop, anyways. We have a sense of humor. They don't. Our one leader, who looks like he belongs in ZZ Top, is well known for his antics.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

I think he may have come out to a couple of the leaders, and they're completely cool with it. They would have told him to just not bring it up during the board of review.

Good for him. Glad to see that most troops are ignoring the higher-ups' ignorant attitudes.


The district and council people don't like our troop, anyways. We have a sense of humor. They don't. Our one leader, who looks like he belongs in ZZ Top, is well known for his antics.

Funny and/or lax leaders are certainly fun. One of the Scout camps mine went to apparently still talks about the year our troop organized a prank war and a mutiny. Long story. :smallbiggrin:

[Arachu]

So in other news I had an unexpected conversation with my daughter's mother - turns out she has a trans friend so I didn't have to explain stuff to her. She's obviously concerned of how little person will take the news too, but is generally very supportive :smallsmile:

That's great~ :smallbiggrin:


*hugs back*
Unlike most people who don't like the festive season, I'm not concerned about family reunions and such. In fact, it's been a couple years I spend the crucial evenings with friends instead, and I have a pretty good time there. The only difference between friends and family, actually, is that the former is like a party that happens to take place during holidays, and the latter consists of my mother organizing something resembling (but not being quite) a Christmas evening.
I don't like Christmas because of Christmas itself. My father died the day after Christmas and people do not give a [REDACTED] about it because it's the holidays, and unfortunate events such as this one just make it awkward, especially when they've already reached their quota of generosity. It's a terrible, shallow holiday. I don't even want or expect gifts, I just want people to leave me the hell alone when I want to and not even dare thinking about instilling me with the holiday spirit. These people don't actually care that much about helping others, especially once the mandatory day is past (and during that day, god forbid you don't look happy enough, because just who is unhappy on Christmas?!). Remember the 2004 tsunami? Though [REDACTED], happened right after Christmas too, and we only remember it when yet another movie comes out, narrating the pain and suffering of the white tourists who survived it. And heck, it's not just the others, I'm selfish, the difference is that I'm not being hypocritical about it.
There's a lot I could say on this subject, but this is not the time or place for this. If you know Dino Buzzati, he wrote a short story on Christmas that expresses perfectly how it makes me feel. In fact, he wrote a bunch of stories I can relate to, and I suggest you guys take a look.

Not that a Jew who doesn't celebrate Christmas is that unusual anyway, even if they're not religious. What's stranger is that I'm not planning to eat Chinese.

So yeah, I'm a grumpy one. I respect everyone's right to like and celebrate Christmas, but if anyone pushes it on me, or worse, tell me to cheer up, I swear someone's going to regret it, and it's not gonna be me.


I don't think you should cheer up. You have every reason to be grumpy. *So many hugs*


Nasty news story. Triggers: Rape and rape culture and victim-blaming.
So this morning I happened upon the story of a woman and some other rape/molestation victims who are now pressing charges against their former middle school teacher, and the defense...well, read for yourself (http://www.alternet.org/12-year-old-rape-victim-called-negligent-and-careless-school-district-legal-papers).

I heard about that. I also heard that everyone from activists to at least one politician was raising hell over it, though I'm not sure how it's going. :smallannoyed:


Ugh...I've been having a pretty lousy morning.

A lot of the links that have been going around have been getting me thinking. It actually started with that Matrix-Patriarchy comic, and then when I read Natalie's blog about the biggest trans myths (exact names escape me at the moment), it all sort of came together.

I used to be really wrapped up in that way of thinking, and it almost...If it hadn't been for this thread, and constantly seeing it popping up on the forum and getting curious, something really bad might have happened in my future.

I used to believe in the whole, "You're really a man," thing. Even though I wanted to be a woman so bad it hurt sometimes, I couldn't think of it any other way than biology. The first time I looked up SRS (when I was 13 or so), I remember I was disappointed that it couldn't allow you to get pregnant afterwards, and I decided it "wasn't real." When a physics teacher I had in college a few years ago began a class trying to be as inclusive as possible, and said he would call people by the pronoun of their choice, I can remember thinking that it was stupid, because even though I wanted to be a girl, "I [was a] boy, so I have to be called he." The onyl way for me to get what I wanted and for it to be real was a supernatural transformation, which was of course impossible, so I sank deeper and deeper into fantasizing about how that could be possible, to the exclusion of living my life. I'm surprised I actually graduated from school, my grades slipped so much in my last couple years...

I just can't stop thinking about how freaking close I came to missing out on something that has made me happier than I've ever been (yes, I'm aware of the irony about saying I'm happy when I'm complaiing about being depressed-ish). It's quite possible that you guys all saved me. I can never thank you enough for that!

Sorry for the depressing rant (spoilered for those who don't care to read it), but it's been hanging over my thoughts recently, and I needed to get it out.

You're all the greatestest :smallsmile: . I'm going to go work on our Werewolf game in order to think about something else, now...


~Phoenix~

*Hugs* The thread helped me a lot, too. I grew up really uncomfortable all the time and couldn't figure out why. I noticed that I didn't care to think of myself as 'male' in 8th grade, but I didn't actually wonder if I might be a girl. When I started talking to people here, I learned more about trans* stuff and eventually worked it out. :smalltongue: :smallsmile:


Blarg. Feelin' low this last week. Unrelated, but blah.

*Hugs* What's wrong?


Also I've been breaking my head over what message to send to a friend of mine about me being trans*. Any thoughts / hints?

I can't think of anything, but *hugs*


~Bianca

[SiuiS]

Look what I found. (http://heteroawarenessmonth.weebly.com/index.html)

Huh. That's something.



Give a respected political voice to heterosexuals
Protect marriage
Stop heterophobic discrimination


Admirable goals! Let's see...
#1; check! Okay heterosexual crusaders, you've got it! 1 out of 3 so far.
#2; done! Marriage being either a thing which doesn't require protecting as its not under attack, and or that you've got a hard monopoly and nothing we nonhets can do will change that. Two for two!
#3; I'm with you. Few things are as damagin as homofolk being prejudiced against heterofolk because "they started it". Equality isn't switching oppressor and oppressee roles, after all.


Man, this is not my week. Two blue-screens and several freezes for my laptop, and now I've crashed my best kobold.

I'm telling you, you've got to take them in for maintenance! a quick virus check, some downtime to defragment and a follow up icecream should take very little time and go a long way toward your kobold's health.

[KerfuffleMach2]

Funny and/or lax leaders are certainly fun. One of the Scout camps mine went to apparently still talks about the year our troop organized a prank war and a mutiny. Long story. :smallbiggrin:

My troop had something we called the Wompus Kitty. Used it to scare new kids and other troops. They have been doing at least 12 years now.

Consists of a metal coffee can with a hole punched through the bottom and a length of rope tied through the hole. Get the rope wet, go into the woods, hold the can up, pull on the rope. Works very well.

[Faulty]

Am I the only one who thinks Heterosexual Awareness Month is a gag?

[noparlpf]

Am I the only one who thinks Heterosexual Awareness Month is a gag?

Kind of hard to say. As usual, satire and actual ridiculous things are hard to distinguish.

[KerfuffleMach2]

Am I the only one who thinks Heterosexual Awareness Month is a gag?

Haven't checked the link yet cause I'm still at work, but I'm already assuming it's a gag.

That being said, somebody is likely to latch onto it and blow it out of proportion.

[SiuiS]

*Hugs* What's wrong?

All my social circles have cycled into aggression at the same time. It happens, but when all of them do it it sucks. Normally if one peer group has bad blood I'll hang out in another until it blows over, but when I'm running from one fight into another, it's very isolating. I'll just nope for about a week until social topics shift and it resolves. Winter doesn't help since everyone is in a dour state.

Meanwhile, that heterawareness month thig is like a slow motion train wreck.


From very early on our page was under*attack, admins and members were called bigots and homophobes. Posts were*reported that had nothing to do with bigotry or homophobia. Pages popped up on*facebook with the sole purpose of defaming what was supposed to be a fun but*take on awareness months. Naturally heterosexuality being the opposite of*homosexuality the subject matter often drifted and sometimes focused*there.

To our critics we say "take what you see with a grain of salt and a* wink of the eye, and for heavens sake, Lighten up a*bit!"* You know we would welcome a few straight jokes if you have them to share.

I'm guessing this is a troll site. It's very purposefully designed to almost make a valid point. Still, it's a terrible thing, an example of poor logic. "A group is full of jerks! The only recourse is to destroy them and instate ourselves, B group, as the rightful jerks!"

So short sighted.


Haven't checked the link yet cause I'm still at work, but I'm already assuming it's a gag.

That being said, somebody is likely to latch onto it and blow it out of proportion.

I'm trying, but you're all like, being reasonable, and stuff. Ruining my fun!

[KerfuffleMach2]

But ruining your fun brings me so much enjoyment! I can't stop now! :smallamused: :smallbiggrin:

[Kindablue]

Luckily for them, Heterosexual Awareness Month already has an anthem. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NRgAk6ozaI)

[noparlpf]

Luckily for them, Heterosexual Awareness Month already has an anthem. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NRgAk6ozaI)

That was actually pretty funny.

[Skeppio]

#3; I'm with you. Few things are as damagin as homofolk being prejudiced against heterofolk because "they started it". Equality isn't switching oppressor and oppressee roles, after all.

Wait, someone here believes that? Oh, that's a big relief.... At least there's one other person who I can see eye to eye with.

(Most LGBT people I've talked to about it either seem to want all cis-folk dead or constantly throw the unbelievably annoying "but they're cis/straight/white/male, so they don't deserve to have an opinion or any rights whatsoever" argument). How can they not understand that views like that aren't going to help LGBT rights one bit?! :smallfurious:

It's been an frustrating week....:smallfrown:

[noparlpf]

Wait, someone here believes that? Oh, that's a big relief.... At least there's one other person who I can see eye to eye with.

(Most LGBT people I've talked to about it either seem to want all cis-folk dead or constantly throw the unbelievably annoying "but they're cis/straight/white/male, so they don't deserve to have an opinion or any rights whatsoever" argument). How can they not understand that views like that aren't going to help LGBT rights one bit?! :smallfurious:

It's been an frustrating week....:smallfrown:

I think that a fair number of the people here believe that too.

[supernerd]

My troop was sponsored by a Methodist church and I helped my dad usher at a Catholic church, so between both of those I was able to get around the "what religion are you?"-type questions.

I'm a Methodist, whose troop is out of a Catholic church. And I plan to maneuver around that question in an intelligent and honest way. I even will have a poem memorized.

[Astrella]

It's possible to be an ass against straight people just as much as it is to be an ass to queer people; however to go claim that there is some kind of organized or institutional oppression and discrimination against straight people is just not true. And that's why this stuff is insulting cause they're basically ridiculing the stuff queer people have to go through.

Stuff like straight pride is just a flawed concept, because every single day is straight pride day. Straight relationships aren't shunned. Straight people don't have to worry about who might hear them when talking about their partner. They don't have to worry about getting shouted at or attacked when holding their partner's hand. They have rolemodels, relationship models to look up to etc...

And people who aren't cis / straight / whatever privileged side in the discussion do have a right to voice opinions, they should be careful though to not drown out the voice of the minority themselves. Because people from a minority already have less chance to express their opinions.

[KerfuffleMach2]

Wait, someone here believes that? Oh, that's a big relief.... At least there's one other person who I can see eye to eye with.

(Most LGBT people I've talked to about it either seem to want all cis-folk dead or constantly throw the unbelievably annoying "but they're cis/straight/white/male, so they don't deserve to have an opinion or any rights whatsoever" argument). How can they not understand that views like that aren't going to help LGBT rights one bit?! :smallfurious:

It's been an frustrating week....:smallfrown:


I think that a fair number of the people here believe that too.

...Should I go then? Cause I'm a card carrying member of that straight/white/male grouping there.

[Skeppio]

...Should I go then? Cause I'm a card carrying member of that straight/white/male grouping there.

Wait, now I'm confused... is noparlpf saying most of this thread supports "Equality isn't switching oppressor and oppressee roles, after all" or "but they're cis/straight/white/male, so they don't deserve to have an opinion or any rights whatsoever"?

[Serpentine]

As someone whose university student union eliminated the Queer Space and drastically cut funding to the Queer Officer in order to set up a Heterosexual Officer who ran a Heterosexual of the Month competition*, I cannot with any confidence say that this is not intended in earnest.

*I think the general attitude of anyone not... in the responsible group was "yeah, equal representation I guess... But that's clearly not why they're doing it, and what the hell is the officer actually going to do?"

[monkyman640]

Wait, now I'm confused... is noparlpf saying most of this thread supports "Equality isn't switching oppressor and oppressee roles, after all" or "but they're cis/straight/white/male, so they don't deserve to have an opinion or any rights whatsoever"?

I think its "Equality isn't switching oppressor and oppressee roles, after all"

[golentan]

There's a nice parable out there continuing the tale of the lion and the mouse, highlighting how damaging the casual assumption of inequality without even any ill will can be, and how excluding someone from your things is such an assumption.

I don't support ill treatment of heteronormativity, and I don't know anyone who seriously does. But demanding fair treatment is not stomping on someone else's rights, and the repeated whining I see to that effect on things like Heterosexual Awareness Month make me have to take several minutes to remind myself of my vow of non-violence. :smallfurious::smallmad:

Anyway, yeah. Straight/White/Cis/Any-Other-Categories-You-Care-To-Add are still and always will be welcome here as long as I have anything to say about it. All of mankind is deserving of equal voice and dignity.

[Astrella]

I don't support ill treatment of heteronormativity, and I don't know anyone who seriously does. But demanding fair treatment is not stomping on someone else's rights, and the repeated whining I see to that effect on things like Heterosexual Awareness Month make me have to take several minutes to remind myself of my vow of non-violence. :smallfurious::smallmad:

No-one is saying that they can't do that. The whole concept of "heterosexual awareness" month is just really insensitive and there is no need for it.

[golentan]

No-one is saying that they can't do that. The whole concept of "heterosexual awareness" month is just really insensitive and there is no need for it.

I'm confused. Or you're confused, maybe. Maybe we're confusing each other?

[Astrella]

I'm not sure anymore now...

[golentan]

I'm not sure anymore now...

Well, what did you think I was saying? Cuz I thought I was saying "The implication my saying that I should be able to marry my significant other is equivalent to saying you are, should be, or will be made a second class citizen and target of discrimination based on YOUR sexual orientation or beliefs is stupid, offensive, obnoxious, shows a deep and fundamental misunderstanding of the stakes and circumstances, is a blatant attempt to play the victim card while trying to metaphorically club an unarmed man, and fills me with a deep and wordless rage from which I require time to recover."

I may be a bit loopy at the moment.

[Astrella]

Aaah, okay. I thought you were saying "the repeated whining about things like heterosexual..." instead of "on", which sounded really out of character for you which is why I reacted.

Apologies for that.

[Socratov]

Man, this is not my week. Two blue-screens and several freezes for my laptop, and now I've crashed my best kobold.

Mind if I put this in my extended sig (both noparlf and Keveak)? I found this reply really enjoyable...

Anyway, on to the big elephant in the room. I am torn between the remark that oppressor and oppressee roles haven't switched, which is undoubtly true, and the correct notion that some non heteronormative folks seem to think that cis-white-male-hetero folk might as well go die in a fire (slight hyperbole). Because simply dais, both are true and noticable. If the link refers to a bit a satire (can't judge because at work youtube is blocked) it is actually well made since it makes people think about themselves and their environment. If not then I think something worse is going on. If it's not satire then some heteronormative folks feel the buttend of bigotry. and before people say that it's good so they can feel what it feel slike, I don't think you you're targeting the bigots with this (at least, I think so). you're targeting the people who have daily contact with LGBT+ folks and who feel themselves left out of the spectrum. all I want to say is that bigotry is bad mkay, whichever way it goes, since bigotry is the source of the problem, and can never be the solution. I also question what in the name of Odin we need awarenessmonths for if peopel know about it. i can see the need for an awareness month is the awareness just isn't there. however, what purpose can the month serve if people know about it and choose to ignore it or just don't care? the month isn't going to solve the problem and the time and resources put into organising the month could be better put towards actually sovling problems or supporting the people who need it. I also think that nobody can have a right to an awarenessmonth if their problem is known (because fo previously discussed effectivity) since it will be a waste of time and energy better put towards solving the problem.

[monkyman640]

*snip*

In my opinion, the video is certainly a satire. The song ends up with the singer naked in bed with another guy, and asking any gay men to "come back in twenty minutes" and have sex with him.

[Mono Vertigo]

@Hetero Awareness Month: what the hell is that. :smallconfused:
I don't care about it, even more so if nobody can tell if it's the real thing or a satire.


In more amusing news, we've determined our cat is speciesqueer/speciesfluid. Today, he's a cat. Tomorrow, he's surely going to be a dog again.

[Lady Tialait]

....Bah, pride in anything you didn't accomplish is arrogance, plain and simple. Proud about being LGBTA? That is strange...I mean, you shouldn't be shameful of it, or proud of it. It's just a thing, shouldn't really be a big deal.

Really, it's like being proud of being able to breath. However, that being said, there is a bit of injustice regarding certain subjects. Pride is going too far. I guess 'Removing shame parade/gathering/month' doesn't roll off the tongue.

If my point hasn't been made, let me just put some phrases up, only changing one word. All things being equal (or at least aiming for it) none of these should be offensive.

Black Pride
White Pride
LGBTA Pride
Straight Pride
Ginger Pride
Blonde Pride
Human Pride
Breathing Pride

If you found some of these offensive, or silly. Really all should be equally silly.

[Socratov]

Well, I'd say you could put pride into one's achievements or luck (or lack of it and perseverence) in the lottery which we call personality traits. anything should fall under those two. LGBT pride (or any pride for that matter) could fall under the mention of "I am proud of who I am, whether I am X, Y or Z".

And if you are happy of your achievement of being able to breathe, then why wouldn't you be able/allowed/supposed to pride yourself in it?

[The Succubus]

....Bah, pride in anything you didn't accomplish is arrogance, plain and simple. Proud about being LGBTA? That is strange...I mean, you shouldn't be shameful of it, or proud of it. It's just a thing, shouldn't really be a big deal.

Really, it's like being proud of being able to breath. However, that being said, there is a bit of injustice regarding certain subjects. Pride is going too far. I guess 'Removing shame parade/gathering/month' doesn't roll off the tongue.

If my point hasn't been made, let me just put some phrases up, only changing one word. All things being equal (or at least aiming for it) none of these should be offensive.

Black Pride
White Pride
LGBTA Pride
Straight Pride
Ginger Pride
Blonde Pride
Human Pride
Breathing Pride

If you found some of these offensive, or silly. Really all should be equally silly.

I find there's an awful lot of discrimination from cheetahs and panthers these days, so I'm supporting Lion Pride. :smalltongue:

[monkyman640]

And isn't LGBT pride or black pride about the history of overcoming oppression?

[Astrella]

And isn't LGBT pride or black pride about the history of overcoming oppression?

Exactly. Being straight isn't something people are being shamed and oppressed for. Queer pride is about standing up to that discrimination, about acknowledging that we have a right to exist. Queer people have had to fight and still fight for acceptance and their rights, that is something to be proud of.

Most people here have had to struggle with regards to their identities and it is something to be proud of that they've managed to figure it out or are working on figuring it out despite society often going counter.

Edit; And people are perfectly allowed to take pride in whatever they want. I just find stuff like straight pride really insensitive and rather petty.

[Socratov]

*snip*

Edit; And people are perfectly allowed to take pride in whatever they want. I just find stuff like straight pride really insensitive and rather petty.

well, I find that remark insensitive and petty because it's very much akin to the fact that just about every nation may have national pride, except for Germany since their nation in the past caused problems which started out of national pride.

[Castaras]

RE: *pride.

I find that pride parades are counter productive, in my opinion. To me, it feels like that a pride is isolating those who are doing the pride away from others, increasing the gulf between different groups. It causes the rift to stay there, rather than close it and get people working together - and a rift between two groups is why the smaller one, or the traditionally abused one, will be oppressed.

So I don't like pride parades to do with anyone. People making Straight parades is just as silly. Just don't bother with the parades - unless it's a human parade (until we get aliens around here, then it'll have to be a people parade) celebrating humanity as a whole, be they pink, yellow, black, gay, lesbian, straight, ginger, brown, etc...

[Astrella]

well, I find that remark insensitive and petty because it's very much akin to the fact that just about every nation may have national pride, except for Germany since their nation in the past caused problems which started out of national pride.

I've only ever seen straight pride come up as a completely reactionary thing to the LGBT+ movement. And that's a false equivalence anyway; since countries generally occupy the same legal position while queer people and straight people in the large majority of cases don't.

Edit; How do pride parades maintain a gap? I could sorta see that argument going if there was social and legal equality right now, which there isn't. And even then it could still serve a purpose as a remembering of history. I don't see anyone objecting to stuff like Veteran's day for being unfair.

Queer pride is important because it provides a counter movement to all the shaming that comes from society. Straight people don't get shamed for being straight by society so they don't need anything to counteract that.

[The Succubus]

I guess it's partly because people get a little spooked when they meet someone that's extremely enthusiastic about something. A lot of pride parades tend to have a very "in your face" attitude to them, which is rather counterproductive. A parade should encourage all people to come and have a look at what all the music, fun and laughter's about, rather than saying "this is a parade about LGBTAness stuff, for LGBTA folks to join in and enjoy LGBTAness things" because hetero folks like myself wonder whether they're welcome or not.

A solution would be to have one huge carnival each year, with a float for hetero folks, a float for LGBTA folks - pretty much anyone that wants to represent something brings along a float. :smallsmile:

[Astrella]

I've never ever heard of a pride parade where straight people weren't welcome.

[Socratov]

I've only ever seen straight pride come up as a completely reactionary thing to the LGBT+ movement. And that's a false equivalence anyway; since countries generally occupy the same legal position while queer people and straight people in the large majority of cases don't.
legal position has nothign to do with persons having pride in themselves or not. it has to do with politics (and that's where I stop). I have lived with a couple of germans for a couple of years and all I hear on for example 5th of may (the day the Netherlands were free of the nazis), or on any other day the dutch peopel take a lot of pride on them being dutch is how in Germany they can't because the world thinks that germans proud in being german are almost by definition nazis (by using faulty reasoning that nazi's were proud germans, so if a german is proud they must be nazis, note, this is not my reasoning, this seems to be prevalent in people in the world).

You are saying (or at least, that's hwo it seems to me) that a white-straight-cis-male person can't take pride in being a white-straight-cis-male becuase in the past the white-straight-cis-male persons were bad to those who were not. In my eyes the reasoning is quite similar and idiotic. I'm all against bigotry but taking pride in someone's identity doesn't make someone who doesn't adhere to those aspects less deservant of pride (or automatically condemns). What woudl be wrong is taking pride in being a bigot. Not because of the pride thing, but because of the bigotry thing.

I may make a big deal out of this, but it seems to be a growing sentiment along with the reasoning "you have not suffered like I do so you have no rights to express your opinion about me" and "Must be this queer to comment"/"you are not queer enough to X"


Edit; How do pride parades maintain a gap? I could sorta see that argument going if there was social and legal equality right now, which there isn't. And even then it could still serve a purpose as a remembering of history. I don't see anyone objecting to stuff like Veteran's day for being unfair.

Queer pride is important because it provides a counter movement to all the shaming that comes from society. Straight people don't get shamed for being straight by society so they don't need anything to counteract that.

Oh, and I don't think Pride automatically as a parade, more of a sentiment. I do agree with you that an awareness month (like expressed in an earlier post) or a parade celebrating straight-white-cis-maleness anything useful and quite idiotic. but I think I may be proud of who I am even if I haven't suffered a certain amount of critisism due to my not being purple-with-green-spots-with-a-certain-outlook-on-life-and-a-certain-state-of-having-changed-or-notness (yes, I'm drawing it into ridicilousness since labels might be practical, but at the same time detrimental to the individual).

[supernerd]

I find there's an awful lot of discrimination from cheetahs and panthers these days, so I'm supporting Lion Pride. :smalltongue:

I see what you did there! :smallwink:

But I've never been to a pride anything. However, I support them existing as a way to have fun mostly, because everyone is gayer at a pride parade.

[Astrella]

We've been talking about Pride, not pride. You can take pride in whatever you want. Also even talking about Heterosexual Awareness month; I haven't said they're not allowed to do it, I said I found it insensitive, that is not the same thing.

And how is this a "you must be this queer to comment" deal? Disagreeing with you != you're not allowed to comment.

[Socratov]

We've been talking about Pride, not pride. You can take pride in whatever you want. Also even talking about Heterosexual Awareness month; I haven't said they're not allowed to do it, I said I found it insensitive, that is not the same thing.

And how is this a "you must be this queer to comment" deal? Disagreeing with you != you're not allowed to comment.

Well, according to you to have a pride you must have been a social outcast becasue of your personal traits first. I see that translatable to "you must be this hated by society before you deserve a pride" which is only mere semantics away from "you must be this queer to comment". that remark was never about disagreeing with me, it was about the idea of people deserving holding a parade celebrating certain traits being in good taste or not.

[Astrella]

As I said, I've only ever seen stuff like Straight Pride parades being brought up in contexts of "why don't we get one?", it's very much a reactionary thing. There's nothing wrong with feeling pride in who you are.

Well, yes, considering Pride parades and such are specifically something that's meant to counteract shame and oppression from society, it'd be a bit silly to have one without that. But if people really want to do one, they're free to do so. The thing is that Straight Pride very often isn't a neutral thing; it very often carries coded bigot language like protecting marriage / traditional lifestyle and all that with it, just look at the link that started this discussion.

Anyways, I'm gonna drop it for now before it drowns out the thread again.

[noparlpf]

...Should I go then? Cause I'm a card carrying member of that straight/white/male grouping there.

I'm a white cis-male. That's two for three. Plus I'm relatively non-disabled, if not neurotypical or straight.


Wait, now I'm confused... is noparlpf saying most of this thread supports "Equality isn't switching oppressor and oppressee roles, after all" or "but they're cis/straight/white/male, so they don't deserve to have an opinion or any rights whatsoever"?

Yeah it was late and I forgot to specify which part I was agreeing with. I was agreeing that "equality isn't just switching oppressor and oppressed roles".


Mind if I put this in my extended sig (both noparlpf and Keveak)? I found this reply really enjoyable...

Sure, I don't mind.


And isn't LGBT pride or black pride about the history of overcoming oppression?

Yes. And it's also saying, "Hey, maybe you (majority of society) think we're strange and different, and should be ashamed for being different, but you know what? We're not ashamed for being who we are. We're damn proud of it."

[Socratov]

Anyways, I'm gonna drop it for now before it drowns out the thread again.

Good idea, I get the impression we're slightly repeating ourselves :smallredface:

anyway, Noparlpf the quote has joined the ranks in my quotelist :smallcool:

[Absol197]

So somebody said something earlier that got sort of drowned out in the discussion, but I want to bring some attention to it. They said something to the effect of, "...[straight people] feel left out of the spectrum." Now, this wasn't in reference to this thread, and I don't think anyone here would want to leave them out, but it got me thinking.

Is there some way we could include an "S" and/or a "C" in the alphabet soup that is our title? And, beginning from that, try to get that worked into "the movement?" Because really, the entire LGBTQA+ movement isn't about saying, "We're different!" It's about saying, "Despite our differences, we're all the same!" Why do we delegate all the hererosexuals, cissexuals, and any other normative categories I'm forgetting into the single bracket "Ally," when they're just as much a part of our movement as we are (even if they don't want to think so, or don't want to be)? Sure, perhaps they haven't suffered as many of the slings and arrows that gay people or transgender people have, and maybe they don't have all the hardships that some of the rarer stripes of humanity do, but aren't they a part of the gender and sexualtity spectrum anyway? Why should we define ourselves by suffering, when we could describe ourselves by friendship?

LGBTQA+ has already included so many different and disperate identities, with the idea that all these people, despite their differences, are the same within the movement. What's adding a couple more? And that might show those that oppose the idea of equality, and the radicals within the movement itself (even movement has them, unfortunately to say), that this isn't a war of the non-normal versus the normal, its a blending of everyone together into a better whole?

Maybe something to think about...


~Phoenix~

[Socratov]

So somebody said something earlier that got sort of drowned out in the discussion, but I want to bring some attention to it. They said something to the effect of, "...[straight people] feel left out of the spectrum." Now, this wasn't in reference to this thread, and I don't think anyone here would want to leave them out, but it got me thinking.

Is there some way we could include an "S" and/or a "C" in the alphabet soup that is our title? And, beginning from that, try to get that worked into "the movement?" Because really, the entire LGBTQA+ movement isn't about saying, "We're different!" It's about saying, "Despite our differences, we're all the same!" Why do we delegate all the hererosexuals, cissexuals, and any other normative categories I'm forgetting into the single bracket "Ally," when they're just as much a part of our movement as we are (even if they don't want to think so, or don't want to be)? Sure, perhaps they haven't suffered as many of the slings and arrows that gay people or transgender people have, and maybe they don't have all the hardships that some of the rarer stripes of humanity do, but aren't they a part of the gender and sexualtity spectrum anyway? Why should we define ourselves by suffering, when we could describe ourselves by friendship?

LGBTQA+ has already included so many different and disperate identities, with the idea that all these people, despite their differences, are the same within the movement. What's adding a couple more? And that might show those that oppose the idea of equality, and the radicals within the movement itself (even movement has them, unfortunately to say), that this isn't a war of the non-normal versus the normal, its a blending of everyone together into a better whole?

Maybe something to think about...


~Phoenix~


I think that sorta misses the point; because then you are covering everyone. In my eyes the GSRM movement specifically is about focusing on the specific issues that group faces. That is what the movement is about, if there was no oppression there wouldn't be a GSRM movement, because we wouldn't be minorities.

And that isn't a hostile thing towards straight / cis people, it's just a focus on a specific set of issues.

Also being radical is not a bad thing, the LGBT+ movement was started by radicals. Radical just means "a big change from the norm", that is what the queer movement originally and in a lot of places still is.

I could actually see ti working. and I'd like to see non-heteronormative-phobic people's faces when they see soemthing along the lines of "you may excuse us, but we include you!" or something like that. :smallbiggrin:

This shoudl totally be done if only for a moment to do this XD bigots cuddled and LGBTAStiC people chanting slogans in teh street about how inclusive they are and that by possing 1, 2 or even 0 gender makes you part fo the movement. and then the reaction of those bigots should be put on film to show all over the world.

[Astrella]

I do think movements like feminism and GSRM are born out of necessity. If there was gender equality / no discrimination with regards to sexual and romantic orientation / gender identity etc... the movements wouldn't be around. They are very much focused on ending this inequality, both social and legal. I don't think focusing on specific issues is an exclusionary thing.

Also being radical is not a bad thing, the LGBT+ movement was started by radicals. Radical just means "a big change from the norm", that is what the queer movement originally and in a lot of places still is.

Edit; it can be added just fine, I just don't really see it changing a lot. The specific issues queer people deal with don't apply to cis / straight folks after all.

[Irish Musician]

*snip*

~Phoenix~
Very well said Phee. We should be celebrating our similarities, not our differences. As a straight white male, I tend to feel like I have no reason to complain, ya know? Like the world says, "You are white, a guy, and straight... therefore you couldn't possibly have any hardships in your life and have no right to complain about any bad stuff that happens to you."

Is this silly? Yes. Does everyone in the world feel this way? Of course not. And am I upset about this? Maybe just a very small amount, but it doesn't really bother me greatly or anything. But I do think a lot of people that are in situations in which they are discriminated against do feel this way. But the funny thing is, that even though I technically do not fall into any racial/sexual/gender group that is discriminated against, I do know what it feels like. I can't go into it too much due to board rules, but I will just say that I live in Texas (the bible belt) and grew up Catholic (Something that tends not to go over well with very fundamentalist followers), and that is where my religion talk ends. I have been called many nasty names before for what I believed and how I lived my life that I lost count long ago. It made me feel less than human and like an idiot.

So while I do not go through what a lot of people in this world go though every day, nor to the extent of what they go through, I do still know how it feels to be made to feel as though your very personhood isn't good enough. This is the very reason, however, that I support the LGBTA community.... because I do know how it feels and I want to try and tell as many people as I can that they are perfect the way they are, or the way they want to be, and that all the negative people in this world's opinion doesn't matter, and shouldn't matter. Because (as I wrap this up for this has gotten very long) like Phee said, we are all together here on this earth and really, are all the same, and should celebrate loving each other, not hating each other.

~Matthew~

[Absol197]

I do think movements like feminism and GSRM are born out of necessity. If there was gender equality / no discrimination with regards to sexual and romantic orientation / gender identity etc... the movements wouldn't be around. They are very much focused on ending this inequality, both social and legal. I don't think focusing on specific issues is an exclusionary thing.

Also being radical is not a bad thing, the LGBT+ movement was started by radicals. Radical just means "a big change from the norm", that is what the queer movement originally and in a lot of places still is.

Edit; it can be added just fine, I just don't really see it changing a lot. The specific issues queer people deal with don't apply to cis / straight folks after all.

I guess radical isn't what I meant, because you're right about what it means. Perhaps extremists is what I meant. Or maybe we could just go with the simple bigots, because there are also those in every (large) group, as unfortunate as it is.

You're also right about the movement being about the issues specific to the non-heteronormative community. From a personal point of view, while I haven't really participated in many AS ("Alphabet Soup") events save for this thread, it really helped me a lot. Trans issues are a rare topic today, and if it wasn't for the work that others had done to put them in the spotlight, I might have been in a very bad place.

However, I do still think that including the heteronormative in the movement beyond a general clump as "Allies" would be a good thing. What we're striving for is equality and recognition, both legal and social. But human nature is to divide people into "Same" and "Other." Currently, to a lot of the world, we're still Other, and the ones who are resisting us the strongest likely feel threatened by that.

I went to see the movie Lincoln on Sunday, and it was about the fight that he had with the House of Representatives to get the 13th Amendment passed. One of the main issues that was hindering the cause was that the people against the Amendment thought that by "equality," the supporters meant for African-Americans and Caucasians to switch places. And this wasn't far off from what some of the supporters were advocating. I feel that the more we include heteronormative people, not simply as "Allies" that exist at our fringes (at least in name, even if they do plenty of good work at our center), the less we will be seen as "Other," and the easier it will be to dispel that absurd notion of "Equality by cutting the other side down."

I guess my ideas are still half-formed and equally informed, so take everything I say with a grain of salt. Just thinking with my fingers, I guess.


~Phoenix~

[Kindablue]

But the funny thing is, that even though I technically do not fall into any racial/sexual/gender group that is discriminated against

If it makes you feel any better, I'm really uncomforable around gingers.

[KerfuffleMach2]

I guess radical isn't what I meant, because you're right about what it means. Perhaps extremists is what I meant. Or maybe we could just go with the simple bigots, because there are also those in every (large) group, as unfortunate as it is.

You're also right about the movement being about the issues specific to the non-heteronormative community. From a personal point of view, while I haven't really participated in many AS ("Alphabet Soup") events save for this thread, it really helped me a lot. Trans issues are a rare topic today, and if it wasn't for the work that others had done to put them in the spotlight, I might have been in a very bad place.

However, I do still think that including the heteronormative in the movement beyond a general clump as "Allies" would be a good thing. What we're striving for is equality and recognition, both legal and social. But human nature is to divide people into "Same" and "Other." Currently, to a lot of the world, we're still Other, and the ones who are resisting us the strongest likely feel threatened by that.

I went to see the movie Lincoln on Sunday, and it was about the fight that he had with the House of Representatives to get the 13th Amendment passed. One of the main issues that was hindering the cause was that the people against the Amendment thought that by "equality," the supporters meant for African-Americans and Caucasians to switch places. And this wasn't far off from what some of the supporters were advocating. I feel that the more we include heteronormative people, not simply as "Allies" that exist at our fringes (at least in name, even if they do plenty of good work at our center), the less we will be seen as "Other," and the easier it will be to dispel that absurd notion of "Equality by cutting the other side down."

I guess my ideas are still half-formed and equally informed, so take everything I say with a grain of salt. Just thinking with my fingers, I guess.


~Phoenix~

I agree with this decision, and I agree that it could help with things. May not help right away, but it will eventually. It's mostly a psychological thing. You start including every category, and less people will feel threatened by it because, hey, they're in one of those categories.

Sure, you're not going to get everyone to think like that. Such is human nature. But any progress is good.

[Irish Musician]

If it makes you feel any better, I'm really uncomforable around gingers.
Oh! I'm a ginger, so yeah, It does! Thanks :smallwink::smallbiggrin:

~Matthew~

[Zorg]

We should be celebrating our similarities, not our differences.

Why shouldn't I celebrate the things that make me different?
It's the things that make me different that society at large punishes me for, and I refuse to be ashamed of them, or pretend they don't exist so I can make it easier on other people to accept me - 'cause, hey, if I hide all my differences & never mention them I'll appear just like everyone else then, right?
Then we can all celebrate how similar we are and some kid isolated and confused will never have to know that there are people different from the norm just like them because we never mention how some people are different, only the ways we're all the same.

I will celebrate and be proud of every aspect of myself as much as my crippling depression will allow.
I will celebrate and share the joy of my transition with my straight, cis friends even though it makes me different.
I will be proud that I can do this and not be consigned to a mental institution because of the people who fought and died for my rights.
I will be proud that people fought the system, even when it cost them everything, so I can have something, even if it is less than what I had.
I will be proud that I am becoming a woman rather than staying as society would keep me because it's easier for them to deal with - and damn anyone who says otherwise.



LGBTQA+ has already included so many different and disperate identities, with the idea that all these people, despite their differences, are the same within the movement. What's adding a couple more?

Queer = not straight & cis. Including straight & cis people in it, whilst acknowledging the full spectrum of gender and sexuality is different IMO from the queer spectrum. Straight & cis people don't need a special group because every day is straight & cis day. That's not to say you automatically have it easier than a gay or trans or XYZ person because of this, but you will generally speaking not have to face a societal bias against you.

Example:

http://i46.tinypic.com/kw2ko.png

To me the X Pride movements and X groups are places to talk about issues that affect those groups. As a non-standard gender and sexual identifying person, it gives me a space where I know like minded people will understand what it means when I said "my GF and I broke up", and exactly how tortuous and conflicting it feels for me.

If we want to be all inclusive why not merge these threads with the relationship advice and the personal woes threads? That way everyone can feel a part of it and we can explain over and over again what we're talking about.
People have sid in this very thread they've felt left out of LGBTA+ spaces and groups due to being unrepresented within the queer community itself - how would it feel to be going to an LGBTA+SC society and being the only non-cis non-straight person there?

Just like every other day for some of us.

[Irish Musician]

Hmmm, that came out wrong, Zorg, when I wrote it. That didn't get my meaning across as I wanted it to. I didn't mean we shouldn't celebrate our differences at all, because we should. What I meant was that sometimes we make our difference so pronounced that we forget that inside, we are all just people, trying to be happy and live our lives, and that we should support each other in trying to be happy, however it is that we find ourselves happy (i.e., our differences).

I, in no way, was trying to say that we should all be the same and stick our differences under the rug and pretend they are not there, so I am sorry if it came out that way. What I meant was that we should all realize that, underneath it all, that we are in the same boat and should treat each other with respect and love, despite our differences (which make us who we are). Nor was I saying that you, or anyone, should be ashamed of who you are or who you want to be, because you shouldn't and the fact that people make you feel that was very much upsets me. All I was saying that we should accept each other's differences because they make us who we are, and realize that while we have many differences between us, that we are all equal and should each have a fair share of being happy.

I apologize if it seemed like I was being insulting.

~Matthew~

[Absol197]

It's quite possible that my idea is not the right way to go about it. LGBT seems to mean different things to different people (or perhaps its better to say it has multiple goals). I was coming from a point of view of inclusivity and achieving equality, while it seems others were thinking about it more as support for those who are outside the "standard model." And while both are excellent and admirable goals, they don't exactly fit into each other so nicely while in the same place at the same time, as Zorg pointed out.

So, in order to restore the peace and love of the thread, I move that we let this conversation slide, pass out some hugs, and move on :smallsmile: .


~Phoenix~

[Lentrax]

I second this motion. I don't think it will get us anywhere and eventually, someones feelings are going to get hurt (If they haven't already.)

[noparlpf]

I have thoughts but they don't make sense in words (after a couple of attempts) so blah.

[Irish Musician]

I have thoughts but they don't make sense in words (after a couple of attempts) so blah.
Heh, as you might have noticed I tend to have that problem as well. :smallwink: Though I don't seem to have enough sense to shut up :smallamused:

~Matthew~

[Mina Kobold]

Man, this is not my week. Two blue-screens and several freezes for my laptop, and now I've crashed my best kobold.

Aww, thanks. But I am sure you have better Kobolds. :smallredface:

I am rebooted and ready for commenting now, however. As long as we on't-day ention-may he-tay H-A-M... ay. ^_^'


Am I the only one who thinks [Snip] is a gag?

I read a Jack Chick comic once, so I accept it as an honest opinion unless clearly satirical (ie. On the Onion, blatantly joking or proclaiming parody). Sorries. ^_^'


Well, I'd say you could put pride into one's achievements or luck (or lack of it and perseverence) in the lottery which we call personality traits. anything should fall under those two. LGBT pride (or any pride for that matter) could fall under the mention of "I am proud of who I am, whether I am X, Y or Z".

That, that right there. That is the reason why such movements exist.

From ancient movements lost in time, to the suffragists, to the Feminist waves, to the Civil Rights Movement, to the Freethinkers & Sceptics, to the LGBTA+ movement, to the Anti-Bullying movement. All of them should not exist at all, in a perfect world, but do because there are oppressions and inequality to tackle. The LGBTA+ movement is about fighting the discrimination based on sexuality and/or gender that is widespread in culture, similarly to how suffragism was about gaining women the right to vote. Bit difficult to support someone in getting the right to vote or being able to be proud of who they are if... Well, the problem does not prevent them. ^_^'

Essentially, people are Proud of being themselves in spite of the bigotry they face based on the Pride Topic. Being Proud of fighting other people's ability to do that is... well, mean. Meanie mean, even. :smallmad::smalltongue:

That does not mean we should not be more inclusive, though. We should be intersectional as well! But intersectionality is about fighting discrimination on all fronts, which I am not sure including Cis and Straight would do. It might, but it sounds like a claim that people are discriminated against for being Cis or Straight, which I hope is not the case. Sorry if it is! >_<

Then again, free discussion and idea-sharing is also important. Maybe we could find a name that both includes the social movement against discrimination and the discussion of everything? :smallsmile:

Sorry if that made no sense, I am a bit loopy after that reboot. ^_^'


And if you are happy of your achievement of being able to breathe, then why wouldn't you be able/allowed/supposed to pride yourself in it?

You should! If you think it is something for you to be proud for, then it is absolutely something you should be proud for! ^_^

I myself am proud of just the little things I can do to be myself, and the minuscule advances I do in my artwork, both of which are probably just as silly to someone. Nobody is trying to stop that (Except the cultural bias against being Goth, meanies! >_<), however, so no need for an Artists Pride Parade or a Hat-Bearer Pride Parade. And if we finally convince people to be nice, there will be no need for any Pride Parades any more! :smallsmile:

Still could do them, but they would be for fun and for history. Instead of out of necessity or weird privilege-logic (I hope my pale-Scandinavian-incognito privilege does not make me have that logic, please do shake me if it does. ;_;)

PS: I hear there is some German nationalism in Holsten (Long story dating to the end of the Great European War), but other than that, the stigma is mean. I wonder if there is a movement to distance German Pride from the concept of German Nazism? :3

PPS: I propose that the Girl Scouts of American expand and let all the fun people transfer their Eagle Scout badges to them. That way everybody gets to have their achievements and choose whether to support fun cookies or weird homophobic policies! ^_^

... I may just be biased by cookies. Maybe.
>_>
<_<

[KenderWizard]

I found the pride conversation interesting to read but I'm glad we've settled down again now. I agree with Zorg.


Wait, someone here believes that? Oh, that's a big relief.... At least there's one other person who I can see eye to eye with.

(Most LGBT people I've talked to about it either seem to want all cis-folk dead or constantly throw the unbelievably annoying "but they're cis/straight/white/male, so they don't deserve to have an opinion or any rights whatsoever" argument). How can they not understand that views like that aren't going to help LGBT rights one bit?! :smallfurious:

It's been an frustrating week....:smallfrown:

Who on earth have you been talking to?


As someone whose university student union eliminated the Queer Space and drastically cut funding to the Queer Officer in order to set up a Heterosexual Officer who ran a Heterosexual of the Month competition*, I cannot with any confidence say that this is not intended in earnest.

*I think the general attitude of anyone not... in the responsible group was "yeah, equal representation I guess... But that's clearly not why they're doing it, and what the hell is the officer actually going to do?"

Headexplode please excuse me I have to go reboot.

[SiuiS]

I second this motion. I don't think it will get us anywhere and eventually, someones feelings are going to get hurt (If they haven't already.)

Aww, man. I maintain a decent schedule and go to bed before midnight once, and this happens!

:smalltongue:

In the interests of getting the thoughts out of my head, I'll spoiler them so no one actually has to read them.


Wait, someone here believes that? Oh, that's a big relief.... At least there's one other person who I can see eye to eye with.

(Most LGBT people I've talked to about it either seem to want all cis-folk dead or constantly throw the unbelievably annoying "but they're cis/straight/white/male, so they don't deserve to have an opinion or any rights whatsoever" argument). How can they not understand that views like that aren't going to help LGBT rights one bit?! :smallfurious:

It's been an frustrating week....:smallfrown:

I'm sorry your week has been so bad, Skeppio. I know how that feels.

While there are a lot of people who go along with this, I find the number who honestly believe it to be very small. The majority are kids who are around it do much yet can't express dissent, or people who have just never thought it through. Often, they meet more thoughtful people, or grow up, or come across opposing rhetoric an change their minds. most extreme views don't survive long when there is even a shadow of doubt.


I think that a fair number of the people here believe that too.

You're gonna have to clarify that mate XD


There's a nice parable out there continuing the tale of the lion and the mouse, highlighting how damaging the casual assumption of inequality without even any ill will can be, and how excluding someone from your things is such an assumption.

Oh? Could you find a name or a link? I'd like to read that.


I don't support ill treatment of heteronormativity, and I don't know anyone who seriously does. But demanding fair treatment is not stomping on someone else's rights, and the repeated whining I see to that effect on things like Heterosexual Awareness Month make me have to take several minutes to remind myself of my vow of non-violence. :smallfurious::smallmad:

Well, I can only talk about this one in particular, but! The HAM site linked very specifically does go overboard. They insist that their rights to be normal are under attack, and that they don't deserve it (possibly valid), that there's nothing wrong with enforcing gender binary (less valid, but no science for it yet) and that they are at war for their rights, and believe that clear cu gender roles and social acceptability of their relationships should be flaunted (...). But hey, that's fine. I do indeed think its satire.

The people who support the site who don't view it as satire, who don't get the point an view a subtle call to moderation as a call to arms for their cause, they make me sad. Because the message of that particular website is that not only do they have to fight for heterosexual rights, but that to do so try have to fight against everyone else who is involved in the same spectrum of causes.

I take a strange view of things. I'm damn proud of who and what I am. I'm, for example, glad I'm white. But my black friends, I say they should be glad they're black. And there is no conflict there, in my mind. Celebrate our differences, and all that. My life would be diminished without this diversity. So I'll guard my borders, but I'll also guard my allies' borders. The website in question, the people who support it (vocally; I should know better than to read comments!) don't.


Anyway, yeah. Straight/White/Cis/Any-Other-Categories-You-Care-To-Add are still and always will be welcome here as long as I have anything to say about it. All of mankind is deserving of equal voice and dignity.

Aye.


No-one is saying that they can't do that. The whole concept of "heterosexual awareness" month is just really insensitive and there is no need for it.

See, this is where I disagree. Against the HAM website, yes. But the concept? No. It's not insensitive because it's not doing anything to or against you or me. It's some people, probably those same allies who get slapped in the face with Die Cis Scum and Need To Be X Queer To Comment, who are saying "yeah! But we also have a right to talk and exist, y'know?". Saying that's offensive is tantamount to saying they dont have a right to exist, because they're not queer enough... Yeah. Not only does that not work, that's out of character for you. Them wanting to have borders, a minimum space within which to feel safe, is perfectly normal. That doesn't mean you cannot have your own borders! It just means, functionally, that there is Astrelland, and Heteronia, and there is uncontested, neutral ground Inbetween.

Now, your pain, how you feel put out by this, that's valid. You being upset does matter, And we will help with that. But if someone else upsets you but stays within their rights, we can't change their actions. We can only help you feel better.


@Hetero Awareness Month: what the hell is that. :smallconfused:
I don't care about it, even more so if nobody can tell if it's the real thing or a satire.

It's satire that has taken on a life of its own.

Although some of the merchandise is crass and tasteless.


So somebody said something earlier that got sort of drowned out in the discussion, but I want to bring some attention to it. *They said something to the effect of, "...[straight people] feel left out of the spectrum." *Now, this wasn't in reference to this thread, and I don't think anyone here would want to leave them out, but it got me thinking.

Mm. I would say "Ally" covers it. And no, I am actually against that. There is already nothin to stop the people in question from coming in and talking. There's also nothing to stop someone who hates or is indifferent to ponies in the pony thread and we have enough random banter there for an off-topic stint to go uncaught for a long while.

But welcomeness isn't a liquidation of borders. We here are the queer spectrum alphabet soup country. We have a flag, and we have a charter (OP, what this thread is for, etc.), and making the country open to even more tourism – when it is already perfectly 100% open – could only come at the expense of the thread populous and charter. We have borders, we have a right to those borders, and they aren't really hurting anyone.


Because really, the entire LGBTQA+ movement isn't about saying, "We're different!" *It's about saying, "Despite our differences, we're all the same!"

This depends on the level of abstraction in thought and conversation, and requires that level of abstraction not to change. Because at some operational levels, most operational levels, the differences are pretty concrete. Different life experiences, expectations, desires, goals, dreams and motivations. If we were all the same we wouldn't need a rainbow; a spectrum is whole, withe light... divided.

A certain amount of segregation is healthy.


Why do we delegate all the hererosexuals, cissexuals, and any other normative categories I'm forgetting into the single bracket "Ally,"

This is fallacious, and requires categorization to attribute a maximum capacity to a thing. Just because they are all under one banner does not mean they are diminished. Adding multiple categories likewise doesn't give them more legitimacy. It's an empty gesture to appeal to aesthetics and misses the heart of the matter.

In my opinion, of course. I'm all for polite discussion :smallsmile:


If it makes you feel any better, I'm really uncomforable around gingers.

So that's why you didn't go to Bronycon with me!


Why shouldn't I celebrate the things that make me different?
It's the things that make me different that society at large punishes me for, and I refuse to be ashamed of them, or pretend they don't exist so I can make it easier on other people to accept me - 'cause, hey, if I hide all my differences & never mention them I'll appear just like everyone else then, right?*
Then we can all celebrate how similar we are and some kid isolated and confused will never have to know that there are people different from the norm just like them because we never mention how some people are different, only the ways we're all the same.

I will celebrate and be proud of every aspect of myself as much as my crippling depression will allow.
I will celebrate and share the joy of my transition with my straight, cis friends even though it makes me different.*
I will be proud that I can do this and not be consigned to a mental institution because of the people who fought and died for my rights.
I will be proud that people fought the system, even when it cost them everything, so I can have something, even if it is less than what I had.
I will be proud that I am becoming a woman rather than staying as society would keep me because it's easier for them to deal with - and damn anyone who says otherwise.




Queer = not straight & cis. Including straight & cis people in it, whilst acknowledging the full spectrum of gender and sexuality is different IMO from the queer spectrum. Straight & cis people don't need a special group because every day is straight & cis day. That's not to say you automatically have it easier than a gay or trans or XYZ person because of this, but you will generally speaking not have to face a societal bias against you.

Example:*

http://i46.tinypic.com/kw2ko.png

To me the X Pride movements and X groups are places to talk about issues that affect those groups. As a non-standard gender and sexual identifying person, it gives me a space where I know like minded people will understand what it means when I said "my GF and I broke up", and exactly how tortuous and conflicting it feels for me.

If we want to be all inclusive why not merge these threads with the relationship advice and the personal woes threads? That way everyone can feel a part of it and we can explain over and over again what we're talking about.
People have sid in this very thread they've felt left out of LGBTA+ spaces and groups due to being unrepresented within the queer community itself - how would it feel to be going to an LGBTA+SC society and being the only non-cis non-straight person there?*

Just like every other day for some of us.

Yeah, pretty much.

I do think that taking a hard line aggressive attitude about it rather than a Caring, explanatory one can only cause slippery slope devolution into what we see in the HAM website though. Which is really hard since I tend to argue like a shark, circling until I scent rhetorical blood and tearing into it like a jackal.

There we are.

So how are you peeps? I'm doing a re-up on my job training, which is a joke because not only is it easy as pie and a waste of my time, I'm constantly watching the employees shirk on the customer service and nondiscrimination policies at the location in training at... Today is going to last from 10:30 to 23:30, so I might not be back on for a week >_>;

Love you all!

[noparlpf]

As someone whose university student union eliminated the Queer Space and drastically cut funding to the Queer Officer in order to set up a Heterosexual Officer who ran a Heterosexual of the Month competition*, I cannot with any confidence say that this is not intended in earnest.

*I think the general attitude of anyone not... in the responsible group was "yeah, equal representation I guess... But that's clearly not why they're doing it, and what the hell is the officer actually going to do?"

Wait, what.

[Zorg]

@ Serps - I second the "wait what?"

@ Siuis - good like & don't get too worn out!

@ Celtic & Phoenix: My mad ranting wasn't directed at you two, per se - I'm just an opponent of the concept of "colourblindness" as it were. I feel that ignoring differences or attempting to homogenise humanity breeds a different kind of ignorance about those on the fringes or outside what society considers the norm by inadvertantly ignoring the differences and how that creates a different perspective.

On reflection it's also possible I'm fed up at the whole having to hide at work thing today as I had electrolysis before work today rather than a day off (yay xmas) so it was much more noticable and I had a few questions I had to dodge.

And to be clear I have no problem with cis/straight people in the thread in general! :smallredface: Just don't expect me to care if you post here about your problems :smalltongue: ok, I'll still care! People who say "die cis scum" depress me, as do anyone in a minority who shouts down someone not of that group asking questions or being inadvertently offensive.
I don't mean getting upset/offended (that would be a tad hypocritical *cough*), but the "you're not X, so your opinion is invalid attitude - that helps no one.

But at the same time I obviously support the rights of people to have their own spaces and they should be open to all but, as others have said better above, they should be respected that they are there for those people to talk about the issues that affect them.


And on a lighter note:

http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r314/Gotthammer/tumblr_mbe0fq5P091r3p7imo1_500.jpg

One thing I always like about King of the Hill was that Bobby's flamboyant behaviour was only ever a problem to Hank (and sometimes Dale), and any dramas in the plot were always because of Hank trying to stop/change Bobby (and it never worked out for him).
Don't know how intentional it was, as KotH sure had its problematic episodes, but Bobby always made me smile (so sassy ^_^ )

Hank: Now, you may not like Willie Nelson, but...
Bobby: No, I like Willie Nelson. He's alternative.
Hank: You take that back!

[Irish Musician]

Funniest thing about KotH, it was based on the city I grew up in....so I definitely relate to it quite a lot :smallwink:

And yeah, Bobby's flamboyant nature always cracked my butt up, and esp Hank's reactions to it. Made me shake my head, roll my eyes, and say, "Oh Hank!"

@Zorg
I didn't figure it was directed straight (sorry for the pun) at me, but I still wanted to make sure I didn't directly insult you, or anyone else, either. Because I do really agree with you about differences....otherwise we are all just Cybermen, ya know?! My point was not going to extremes of either side, but to accept everyone for who they are, and love each other as a whole, that's all. I just tend not to express myself very well :smalleek: but oh well :smalltongue:
~Matthew~

[Mono Vertigo]

Who on earth have you been talking to?

The same people who I've "quit" recently?


@Serpentine's student union (sorry, too lazy to quote since it's on a different page): I'll do the same as Kender. Hopefully my head will explode in another color and if enough people headexplode, we'll have the full rainbow.

[Kindablue]

The HAM site linked very specifically does go overboard.
HAM... wow. I'm all turned around on this suddenly. Yeah, okay, next July is HAM. I'll go along with that.

So that's why you didn't go to Bronycon with me!
Yes, even though I had no idea what you looked like at the time. It's like a preprejudice. I judged you unfairly before I knew what to judge you unfairly for.

Funniest thing about KotH, it was based on the city I grew up in....so I definitely relate to it quite a lot :smallwink:
I thought of it as being one of the more accurate portrayals of Texas in fiction, all things considered.

[Irish Musician]

I thought of it as being one of the more accurate portrayals of Texas in fiction, all things considered.
Oh, it definitely is, and while the "names have been changed to protect the innocent", I know at least one of each of the characters on that show. Tickles me to no end :smallamused: It isn't as fiction-y as one might think.

~Matthew~

[Absol197]

In lighter news, a player in a D&D game wanted a...slightly different version of Mordenkainen's magnificent mansion for their character, and since I'm the one who is the de factor homebrewer for the group, I developed the fabulous new spell Lix Lorn's heavenly harem. Relax the night away in comfort (and pleasure :smallwink:)! It's quite fun :smallbiggrin: !


~Phoenix~

[golentan]

I didn't figure it was directed straight (sorry for the pun) at me, but I still wanted to make sure I didn't directly insult you, or anyone else, either. Because I do really agree with you about differences....otherwise we are all just Cybermen, ya know?! My point was not going to extremes of either side, but to accept everyone for who they are, and love each other as a whole, that's all. I just tend not to express myself very well :smalleek: but oh well :smalltongue:
~Matthew~

Cybermen are people too! (Actually, the portrayal of cybermen always bothered me)

[noparlpf]

Cybermen are people too! (Actually, the portrayal of cybermen always bothered me)

When they first appeared I was too busy being amused by the awful 1966 costumes to worry about that. Also the Doctor was dying so that was distracting too.

[Mystic Muse]

My mom found what she says seems to be a really good Councillor that's pretty close by, and I'm going to see him soon. About to go downstairs and schedule an appointment.:smallbiggrin:

[Absol197]

My mom found what she says seems to be a really good Councillor that's pretty close by, and I'm going to see him soon. About to go downstairs and schedule an appointment.:smallbiggrin:

That's great, Mystic! Are you out to your parents? I don't think I've ever heard...Only if you want to say, of course.


~Phoenix~

[Lix Lorn]

Sorry if that made no sense, I am a bit loopy after that reboot. ^_^'
See, this is why you always start in safe mode after a crash.


In lighter news, a player in a D&D game wanted a...slightly different version of Mordenkainen's magnificent mansion for their character, and since I'm the one who is the de factor homebrewer for the group, I developed the fabulous new spell Lix Lorn's heavenly harem. Relax the night away in comfort (and pleasure :smallwink:)! It's quite fun :smallbiggrin: !

~Phoenix~
I
Um.
Uh.
http://i47.tinypic.com/fof6nb.png
I'm never coming out.

[SiuiS]

EDIT: muse is out to her mother specifically, I believe.


HAM... wow. I'm all turned around on this suddenly. Yeah, okay, next July is HAM. I'll go along with that.

It took me five tries reading the acronym on the site to figure out what they were talking about.


Yes, even though I had no idea what you looked like at the time. It's like a preprejudice. I judged you unfairly before I knew what to judge you unfairly for.

I'm pretty sure there's already a term for that. "Being an Internet Denizen".


I thought of it as being one of the more accurate portrayals of Texas in fiction, all things considered.

Aye.


In lighter news, a player in a D&D game wanted a...slightly different version of Mordenkainen's magnificent mansion for their character, and since I'm the one who is the de factor homebrewer for the group, I developed the fabulous new spell Lix Lorn's heavenly harem. Relax the night away in comfort (and pleasure :smallwink:)! It's quite fun :smallbiggrin: !


~Phoenix~

*scribble scribble scribble* level? I've only got five pages to spare in this one, and I hate splitting spells across books.


Cybermen are people too! (Actually, the portrayal of cybermen always bothered me)

why? I mean, I have my issues with them, but I have issues with EVERY portrayal of logic and emotion being two separate things which interfere with each other... Especially when logic isn't logical, it's being a sink because you lack empathy. But otherwise, poorly designed homogenous killbots with faulty loops in their programming... Makes sense. They're designed to be flawed.

[Mystic Muse]

That's great, Mystic! Are you out to your parents? I don't think I've ever heard...Only if you want to say, of course.


~Phoenix~

Yeah, I'm out to both of my parents. Not out to any of my siblings because my mom specifically requested I wait (For multiple reasons), but I'm out to them, and an Aunt and Uncle of mine who are pretty cool people.

[Lentrax]

*Furiously struggles to scrape together enough resources to cast Permanancy.*

Good luck Mystic! Talking about anything with anyone can be really hard, but in the end, its worth it.

[Lentrax]

edit: And the post is gone. Nothing to see here folks. Move along.

Move along.

[Kindablue]

Cybermen are people too! (Actually, the portrayal of cybermen always bothered me)
Don't give yourselves to these unnatural men! machine men, with machine minds and machine hearts!

[golentan]

why? I mean, I have my issues with them, but I have issues with EVERY portrayal of logic and emotion being two separate things which interfere with each other... Especially when logic isn't logical, it's being a sink because you lack empathy. But otherwise, poorly designed homogenous killbots with faulty loops in their programming... Makes sense. They're designed to be flawed.

Because they're portrayed as interchangeable, expendable, and subhuman. That the process of transformation. That stripping out and altering emotions instantly converts you to an identical cog no different from any of the others, never mind the fact that your memories remain intact.

There has never been, and never will be, an expendable person. The conscience doesn't lie in the emotion, it lies in the thought itself. A person is a person is a person, no matter how extreme the alterations to their body or mind may become, and I don't accept that you can strip away enough of that core individual to make them interchangeable with another. Not without literally combining two individuals, or duplicating one wholesale.

Gah, I'm explaining it poorly. Part of it is my continual backlash against portrayals of xenophobia, especially with regards to artificial or transhuman life. I came to this world as an artificial person, and the portrayal of such beings as soulless horrors that need not be considered in moral calculus is especially horrifying because to me, created life is the moral equivalent of the child of its progenitor species. "War against the machine" stories are like watching a competition to see whether someone can commit infanticide their child commits patricide. It almost doesn't matter who started it, it's proof that the originals are terrible, terrible parents either way.

[Absol197]

*scribble scribble scribble* level? I've only got five pages to spare in this one, and I hate splitting spells across books.

You're a page short, I'm afraid. It can't feed as many people and has less square area (plus the servants have fewer tasks they can perform...although they can perform some additional tasks that Mordenkainen's can't :smallwink:), but the basic functionality is all still there, so it's still spell level 6th.


Yeah, I'm out to both of my parents. Not out to any of my siblings because my mom specifically requested I wait (For multiple reasons), but I'm out to them, and an Aunt and Uncle of mine who are pretty cool people.

Are any of them people you can talk to about stuff, or is it more of a, "Hey family, thought you should know this," type deal? I know that's a fine line, but...

And, if you feel like sharing, why did your mom ask you to delay talking to your siblings? It sounds like you'd prefer not to get into it, but it can't hurt to ask, right (unless it does; I'm really sorry if it does :smallfrown: )?


~Phoenix~

[Lentrax]

why? I mean, I have my issues with them, but I have issues with EVERY portrayal of logic and emotion being two separate things which interfere with each other... Especially when logic isn't logical, it's being a sink because you lack empathy. But otherwise, poorly designed homogenous killbots with faulty loops in their programming... Makes sense. They're designed to be flawed.

And I am sure this is why the Doctor handily defeats them at every turn.

Honestly, the Daleks put up more of a fight, and they are even more single minded than the Cybermen. Heh, bet the Daleks never even give a second thought to LGBT at all.And that is how you bring Doctor Who a legitimate status in the thread. Or bring up Captain Jack I suppose.:smallsmile:

[noparlpf]

Because they're portrayed as interchangeable, expendable, and subhuman. That the process of transformation. That stripping out and altering emotions instantly converts you to an identical cog no different from any of the others, never mind the fact that your memories remain intact.

There has never been, and never will be, an expendable person. The conscience doesn't lie in the emotion, it lies in the thought itself. A person is a person is a person, no matter how extreme the alterations to their body or mind may become, and I don't accept that you can strip away enough of that core individual to make them interchangeable with another. Not without literally combining two individuals, or duplicating one wholesale.

Gah, I'm explaining it poorly. Part of it is my continual backlash against portrayals of xenophobia, especially with regards to artificial or transhuman life. I came to this world as an artificial person, and the portrayal of such beings as soulless horrors that need not be considered in moral calculus is especially horrifying because to me, created life is the moral equivalent of the child of its progenitor species. "War against the machine" stories are like watching a competition to see whether someone can commit infanticide their child commits patricide. It almost doesn't matter who started it, it's proof that the originals are terrible, terrible parents either way.

That's a pretty good line of thought.
As for conscience vs. emotions and whatnot, you can't really bring science into a fantasy TV show, so just don't question it too much.

[Mystic Muse]

Are any of them people you can talk to about stuff, or is it more of a, "Hey family, thought you should know this," type deal? I know that's a fine line, but... I think I can talk to my Aunt and Uncle about it.




And, if you feel like sharing, why did your mom ask you to delay talking to your siblings? It sounds like you'd prefer not to get into it, but it can't hurt to ask, right (unless it does; I'm really sorry if it does :smallfrown: )?


~Phoenix~

Basically, finding out your parents are getting divorced, and your brother is going to try and end up being your sister within a couple of months= bad idea.

She asked me to wait until at least my next birthday, which I think is fair.

[Arachu]

Straight pride month:
Are we seriously arguing over whether a work of satire is insensitive or whether calling it that is erasive to straight people? Nobody said straight people can't be proud of their sexuality, just that making fun of queer pride trivializes everything we've gone through in society.

Also, has Lena ever said anything to suggest she doesn't care about what straight people have to say? I've only seen her get offended over stuff that placed them above queers - stuff that opposes equality in some way. :/


All my social circles have cycled into aggression at the same time. It happens, but when all of them do it it sucks. Normally if one peer group has bad blood I'll hang out in another until it blows over, but when I'm running from one fight into another, it's very isolating. I'll just nope for about a week until social topics shift and it resolves. Winter doesn't help since everyone is in a dour state.

Meanwhile, that heterawareness month thig is like a slow motion train wreck.

*Hugs!*


Well, what did you think I was saying? Cuz I thought I was saying "The implication my saying that I should be able to marry my significant other is equivalent to saying you are, should be, or will be made a second class citizen and target of discrimination based on YOUR sexual orientation or beliefs is stupid, offensive, obnoxious, shows a deep and fundamental misunderstanding of the stakes and circumstances, is a blatant attempt to play the victim card while trying to metaphorically club an unarmed man, and fills me with a deep and wordless rage from which I require time to recover."

I may be a bit loopy at the moment.

*So many hugs*


~Bianca

[noparlpf]

Straight pride month:
Are we seriously arguing over whether a work of satire is insensitive or whether calling it that is erasive to straight people? Nobody said straight people can't be proud of their sexuality, just that making fun of queer pride trivializes everything we've gone through in society.

Also, has Lena ever said anything to suggest she doesn't care about what straight people have to say? I've only seen her get offended over stuff that placed them above queers - stuff that opposes equality in some way. :/
~Bianca

Nobody knows that it's actually satire. If it is, it should note that somewhere because otherwise people assume it's serious. If it's a joke, then it's not only in bad taste, but it's rather hurtful. If it's serious, then it's still hurtful.

[Astrella]

...that hurts, Siuis.


My mom found what she says seems to be a really good Councillor that's pretty close by, and I'm going to see him soon. About to go downstairs and schedule an appointment.:smallbiggrin:

That's great news! :smallbiggrin:

-----

Thank you for that post, Zorg.

[Kindablue]

Nobody knows that it's actually satire. If it is, it should note that somewhere because otherwise people assume it's serious. If it's a joke, then it's not only in bad taste, but it's rather hurtful. If it's serious, then it's still hurtful.
No, I think it's pretty clearly a bad joke. (http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/efaa363381/so-you-wan-t-to-be-straight)

This made me laugh though:


"I am glad you have the courage and
the guts to update a fan group like this" - P.O.

[Mystic Muse]

EDIT: muse is out to her mother specifically, I believe.

Was out to my dad specifically, who outed me to my mom, and aunt and uncle. I'm still less than happy about that, but as of right now, it's fine.

[noparlpf]

No, I think it's pretty clearly a bad joke. (http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/efaa363381/so-you-wan-t-to-be-straight)

This made me laugh though:

Yeah, looks like, then. Still, like I said, it's a joke in very poor taste, and it's still hurtful.

[Worira]

We should probably pay some more attention to it, then.

[SiuiS]

Because they're portrayed as interchangeable, expendable, and subhuman. That the process of transformation. That stripping out and altering emotions instantly converts you to an identical cog no different from any of the others, never mind the fact that your memories remain intact.

There has never been, and never will be, an expendable person. The conscience doesn't lie in the emotion, it lies in the thought itself. A person is a person is a person, no matter how extreme the alterations to their body or mind may become, and I don't accept that you can strip away enough of that core individual to make them interchangeable with another. Not without literally combining two individuals, or duplicating one wholesale.

Gah, I'm explaining it poorly. Part of it is my continual backlash against portrayals of xenophobia, especially with regards to artificial or transhuman life. I came to this world as an artificial person, and the portrayal of such beings as soulless horrors that need not be considered in moral calculus is especially horrifying because to me, created life is the moral equivalent of the child of its progenitor species. "War against the machine" stories are like watching a competition to see whether someone can commit infanticide their child commits patricide. It almost doesn't matter who started it, it's proof that the originals are terrible, terrible parents either way.

Okay. That's actually very well put together, thank you.

I would argue that newWho (haven't seen much of the other stuff, unfortunately) portrays them as such on purpose, because they aren't just people who were stripped down – they were de-people'd. But that only came about because I assume the show knew what it was doing, and it still bothered me. Luckily, I now can point to where that thought trail goes wrong.


You're a page short, I'm afraid. It can't feed as many people and has less square area (plus the servants have fewer tasks they can perform...although they can perform some additional tasks that Mordenkainen's can't :smallwink:), but the basic functionality is all still there, so it's still spell level 6th.

Nuts! Scroll then. Luckily, exploits. So I'll be back in however many hours are needed to make a sixth level scroll.
*casts Essential Echoe*

Hi! I need you to active this into scroll form, please.


Eh, I'd actually like to talk to these people instead. Can you scribe it?

... Well, yeah. But you know you're a temporary me, right?


All the more reason! Plus as soon as you go I get to stop typing in Right Orientation.

Fair enough! *shrugs, leaves*


Hi!


Straight pride month:
Are we seriously arguing over whether a work of satire is insensitive or whether calling it that is erasive to straight people? Nobody said straight people can't be proud of their sexuality, just that making fun of queer pride trivializes everything we've gone through in society.

Also, has Lena ever said anything to suggest she doesn't care about what straight people have to say? I've only seen her get offended over stuff that placed them above queers - stuff that opposes equality in some way. :/

I'm in the unfortunate position of thinking a legitimate opinion with backup will just alienate me further, but there's no clear sign of satire. Intimations, but I've seen those used to vindicate extreme positions by saying "well it's all satire ad opinion, maaan. You can't get mad at me fr satire and opinion!"

Oh, that reminds me. Kindablue, you said "is an artist responsible for their art". Yes. Yes they are. Responsibility is owning up to things, and the purpose of art is not to create an object, but an event. You may not intend to prompt a response, but when you do you can't say oh it's art deal with it. Even something as simple as "I didn't think it would have that effect, sorry" works because it's an acknowledgement of your actions, instead I pretending the fallout has nothing to do with you.


...that hurts, Siuis.


I'm sorry. Why? I thought I was handling things in a fair, respectful and moderate manner. :smallfrown:


No, I think it's pretty clearly a bad joke. (http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/efaa363381/so-you-wan-t-to-be-straight)

This made me laugh though:

Wow.


Was out to my dad specifically, who outed me to my mom, and aunt and uncle. I'm still less than happy about that, but as of right now, it's fine.

Nuts. How did we get that backwards? Sorry Muse.

[golentan]

Found the updated parable of the lion and the mouse, (http://www.owldolatrous.com/?p=369) btw.

[Mystic Muse]

Nuts. How did we get that backwards? Sorry Muse.

Maybe it's Topsy Turvy day. Anybody seen Quasimodo, Phoebus, Esmeralda, Clopin, or Judge Claude Frollo?

[Irish Musician]

Cybermen are people too! (Actually, the portrayal of cybermen always bothered me)
Yeah, technically they were. But only because they had a brain, everything else about them was taken away, all of their humanity.

Maybe it's Topsy Turvy day. Anybody seen Quasimodo, Phoebus, Esmeralda, Clopin, or Judge Claude Frollo?
You Rang? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvNMEuedsJk)

[golentan]

Yeah, technically they were. But only because they had a brain, everything else about them was taken away, all of their humanity.

RRRRRRRRRRRRRRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGG HHHHHHH!!!! :smallfurious:

[noparlpf]

Yeah, technically they were. But only because they had a brain, everything else about them was taken away, all of their humanity.

Almost everything you call humanity is in the brain.

[Irish Musician]

Almost everything you call humanity is in the brain.
Yes, it is, but even that was taken away from them by their inhibitor chip. By "but only because they had a brain" I mean biologically. Their bodies and everything else was machine. And the stuff that made them, "them", was taken away from them.

Did I make the many armed one mad? I am scared now :smalleek:

[SiuiS]

Found the updated parable of the lion and the mouse, (http://www.owldolatrous.com/?p=369) btw.

Wow, surprisingly topical. Thank you Golly.

Huh. I'm a supremacist. Except... I can't really see anything negative about that; as a word it's fairly neutral, I think. Everything listed under the negatives aren't an inherent quality of such a line of though. Still, it's worth thinking about, and I'm bumping up against something that makes me mildly uncomfortable, so it may be another point where an artefact of my syncretic morality doesn't jive with what I think my morals are/should be.

Yay soul searching!


Maybe it's Topsy Turvy day. Anybody seen Quasimodo, Phoebus, Esmeralda, Clopin, or Judge Claude Frollo?

I'm sorry, but I cannot for the life of me see the name Clopin and not snicker.
And Frollo makes me think of Megamind. *answers phone* "Frollo?" "Its 'hello', boss!" "Oh, uh... Hello?"

[Kindablue]

Oh, that reminds me. Kindablue, you said "is an artist responsible for their art". Yes. Yes they are. Responsibility is owning up to things, and the purpose of art is not to create an object, but an event. You may not intend to prompt a response, but when you do you can't say oh it's art deal with it. Even something as simple as "I didn't think it would have that effect, sorry" works because it's an acknowledgement of your actions, instead I pretending the fallout has nothing to do with you.
That's misquoted, so for context:

I generally think it's better to spoiler than not spoiler if you're not sure. And Astrella spoilered so I spoilered my reply. *shrugs* So...

I don't mean it's a comedy or supposed to be a comedic moment in The Crying Game, I was generalising to other movies.

I see what you mean, and I haven't seen the movie myself so I'm no expert. I just think it doesn't take that much thought to see that maybe it would be unnecessarily hurtful to trans people and not actually very important to the plot. From a plot point of view, what's the difference between the guy getting shocked and maybe upset and stopping the sexual encounter, and getting shocked and maybe upset and vomiting and stopping the sexual encounter?

Abstracting this thought, do artists have a responsibility to be unoffensive?
If the director had the responsibility to be unoffensive--the responsibility to the feelings of their audience over their idea for how the film should go or how they think the characters would react--they should have changed the scene, I agree. I don't agree with the premise that they have that responsibility, but I do agree with that conclusion built on it.


We should probably pay some more attention to it, then.
I agree. And I move we set aside the rest of December as a time for discussing HAM and trying to raise public attention about HAM. We would call it HAM, for HAM Awareness Month.

[noparlpf]

Yes, it is, but even that was taken away from them by their inhibitor chip. By "but only because they had a brain" I mean biologically. Their bodies and everything else was machine. And the stuff that made them, "them", was taken away from them.

Did I make the many armed one mad? I am scared now :smalleek:

I don't know how well a human brain with most of its functions shut down would work. A human brain is also a fairly awful processor. So let's just drop it because the inhibitor chip is basically magic, and with magic anything's possible. Even turning people into cookie-cutter robots.


I agree. And I move we set aside the rest of December as a time for discussing HAM and trying to raise public attention about HAM. We would call it HAM, for HAM Awareness Month.

Oh dear. This is already way too meta for me to handle.

[Irish Musician]

So let's just drop it because the inhibitor chip is basically magic, and with magic anything's possible. Even turning people into cookie-cutter robots.
Agreed, much like time-travel in a police box, etc. Hard to explain real life situations in a fictional show.

I didn't mean to make people angry, apologizes if I did. :smallfrown:

~Matthew~

[SiuiS]

Apologies bloo. It was the thought I had, but should probably be labeled as a tangent.

What's the proper etiquette for paraphrasing? I always use quotation marks instead of the quote tag, but that seems to cause confusion.

And I'm with Golly, CDD. The show said they lost their humanity but then fails to prove it, quite often showing how they maintain it despite the procedures. If anything, it's a story on the folly of assumptions. Or space magic, like how a cyborg human can learn mind control which is only possible for anyone else via a mutation of a severely different alien reproductive cycle.

[Kindablue]

Apologies bloo. It was the thought I had, but Gould probably be labeled as a tangent.

What's the proper etiquette for paraphrasing? I always use quotation marks instead of the quote tag, but that seems to cause confusion

'You said something like "blah blah blah,"' as opposed to 'you said "blah blah blah."' I'm not annoyed to be misquoted, I just couldn't really defend the position you gave me.

[KenderWizard]

Artist's responsibility: I don't think they _have_ to try not to offend or hurt, but I think generally, it's better avoided. It's not a rule, I wouldn't arrest them for it if I was a dictator, but it's a guideline. "Don't unnecessarily upset people." It's a guideline for everyone, actually.



@Serpentine's student union (sorry, too lazy to quote since it's on a different page): I'll do the same as Kender. Hopefully my head will explode in another color and if enough people headexplode, we'll have the full rainbow.

Mine was purple with stars in. :smallbiggrin:


My mom found what she says seems to be a really good Councillor that's pretty close by, and I'm going to see him soon. About to go downstairs and schedule an appointment.:smallbiggrin:

Awesome! I hope it goes well and your mother proves correct in her judgement!


Found the updated parable of the lion and the mouse, (http://www.owldolatrous.com/?p=369) btw.

That was a really good read, thank you for sharing, Golly.

[SiuiS]

Oh, my page didn't load all the way last time. Looks like I was wrong, on the supremacy bit – the very next paragraph pointed out the negative consequences thereof. AI now instead of a fun label, I'm just a smug person who enjoys what life gives me (most of the time) and want others to enjoy life as well. Much more a mouthful, much less fun to say.

[turkishproverb]

Apologies bloo. It was the thought I had, but should probably be labeled as a tangent.

What's the proper etiquette for paraphrasing? I always use quotation marks instead of the quote tag, but that seems to cause confusion.

And I'm with Golly, CDD. The show said they lost their humanity but then fails to prove it, quite often showing how they maintain it despite the procedures. If anything, it's a story on the folly of assumptions. Or space magic, like how a cyborg human can learn mind control which is only possible for anyone else via a mutation of a severely different alien reproductive cycle.

The novels and comics actuality covered this much better in regard to the cybermen. Eventually some cybermen regain their emotions and go on to be relatively peaceful, contributing to something positive. One is even a companion of the 8th doctor for a while, and in the process saved the universe. Read The Glorious Dead. :smallsmile:

Even besides that, the show's had non-cyberman cyborgs who were good. Even PROUD! :smalltongue:

[noparlpf]

The novels and comics actuality covered this much better in regard to the cybermen. Eventually some cybermen regain their emotions and go on to be relatively peaceful, contributing to something positive. One is even a companion of the 8th doctor for a while, and in the process saved the universe. Read The Glorious Dead. :smallsmile:

Even besides that, the show's had non-cyberman cyborgs who were good. Even PROUD! :smalltongue:

Well the non-show media aren't 100% canon. (Also where do you find those sorts of things? I've found the entire show but don't even know where to look for books and comics.)

[turkishproverb]

Well the non-show media aren't 100% canon. (Also where do you find those sorts of things? I've found the entire show but don't even know where to look for books and comics.)

...You do know you're basing that off nothing, right? Except perhaps the idea that the show is "most prominent" and therefore the others don't "count"?


Heck, the current showrunner has said there is no canon, no statement of "noncanon" has ever been made in regard to other media, and technically they could be considered in breach of their old contract with Virgin books if those aren't canon. Further, most of the novels after that were produced by the BBC, making the "different producer" reason doubtful, as does the writer crossover between the comics, audios, books, and show.


...Bottom line, the fact some people only watch the show doesn't make other things "less canon". The only reason people think this way is because of Star Trek and Star Wars' "canon policies". Things are less canon in Star wars in other media because of rules set up by the company, same with Star Trek. And even then that's using an odd derivative fan definition of canon that usually means "in continuity" and is as such even less necessary for a show involving time travel and alternate dimensions.

[noparlpf]

...You do know you're basing that off nothing, right? Except perhaps the idea that the show is "most prominent" and therefore the others don't "count"?

Heck, the current showrunner has said there is no canon, no statement of "noncanon" has ever been made in regard to other media, and technically they could be considered in breach of their old contract with Virgin books if those aren't canon. Further, most of the novels after that were produced by the BBC, making the "different producer" reason doubtful, as does the writer crossover between the comics, audios, books, and show.

...Bottom line, the fact some people only watch the show doesn't make other things "less canon". The only reason people think this way is because of Star Trek and Star Wars' "canon policies". Things are less canon in Star wars in other media because of rules set up by the company, same with Star Trek. And even then that's using an odd derivative fan definition of canon that usually means "in continuity" and is as such even less necessary for a show involving time travel and alternate dimensions.

I'll take your word for that then as you're actually citing a few things. It's just that around the few parts of the internet to which I've actually been, I've only ever seen the non-show media referred to as non-canon.

[Kindablue]

Wasn't writing Doctor Who comics one of the first jobs Alan Moore had in the industry? I wonder how hard it would be to find those now...

[turkishproverb]

I'll take your word for that then as you're actually citing a few things. It's just that around the few parts of the internet to which I've actually been, I've only ever seen the non-show media referred to as non-canon.

Yea, you're mostly not looking the right places then. Not blaming you, though. Common misconception. :smallsmile:


Wasn't writing Doctor Who comics one of the first jobs Alan Moore had in the industry? I wonder how hard it would be to find those now...

Doctor Who Monthly #47
"Star Death"

Doctor Who Monthly #51
"The 4-D War"

Oddly, this might be the first direct mention of a "war in time" in doctor who fiction.


Doctor Who Monthly #57
"Black Sun Rising"


Did I make the many armed one mad? I am scared now :smalleek:

HEHEHEHE.

[noparlpf]

Yea, you're mostly not looking the right places then. Not blaming you, though. Common misconception. :smallsmile:

Yeah. So not "based on nothing", just "based on poor sources". I'm fairly new to the series (started watching from the First Doctor back in July) and I don't involve myself with the fandom or look things up very much, and what I have read was apparently at least somewhat incorrect.

[turkishproverb]

It's ok. Lots of new to who people tend to think of Canon in ST and SW terms automatically, because they're the most common methods.

IF you have questions, or need recommendations of things to skip or things to add (from the non-TV zone) just ask.

[Heliomance]

The novels and comics actuality covered this much better in regard to the cybermen. Eventually some cybermen regain their emotions and go on to be relatively peaceful, contributing to something positive. One is even a companion of the 8th doctor for a while, and in the process saved the universe. Read The Glorious Dead. :smallsmile:

Even besides that, the show's had non-cyberman cyborgs who were good. Even PROUD! :smalltongue:

Bannakaffalatta!

[noparlpf]

It's ok. Lots of new to who people tend to think of Canon in ST and SW terms automatically, because they're the most common methods.

IF you have questions, or need recommendations of things to skip or things to add (from the non-TV zone) just ask.

What from the stuff that isn't the show would you recommend? And where to find them? Maybe via PM because this is off-topic now.

[Kindablue]

It's ok. Lots of new to who people tend to think of Canon in ST and SW terms automatically, because they're the most common methods.

So you're saying there's no new Who EU?

[turkishproverb]

What from the stuff that isn't the show would you recommend? And where to find them? Maybe via PM because this is off-topic now.

Pmmed you.


So you're saying they're no new Who EU?

Last post by me on this topic for now: NO, not as such. EU is a term devised out of the specific limited nature of Star Wars. While Doctor who has documents that are equivalent, they've never been officially declared 'Lesser" like the star wars EU has.



Bannakaffalatta!

hehehe...

[Heliomance]

Last post by me on this topic for now: NO, not as such. EU is a term devised out of the specific limited nature of Star Wars. While Doctor who has documents that are equivalent, they've never been officially declared 'Lesser" like the star wars EU has.


Pretty sure he posted that question just for the wordplay...

[turkishproverb]

probably. :smallconfused:

[Astrella]

I'm sorry. Why? I thought I was handling things in a fair, respectful and moderate manner. :smallfrown:

You said I was denying straight people a safe space by being hurt by heterosexual awareness month. I only said how it made me feel, I didn't say they couldn't do it. Being told that you're denying people rights stings.

[SiuiS]

You said I was denying straight people a safe space by being hurt by heterosexual awareness month. I only said how it made me feel, I didn't say they couldn't do it. Being told that you're denying people rights stings.

I... Did I? I don't recall saying... Hmm.
Well, that definitely wasn't the intent on my part, luv. I'm sorry.

[Kindablue]

The End of Transgender as a Mental Illness (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dana-beyer/the-end-of-transgender-as-a-mental-illness_b_2238147.html?utm_hp_ref=health-news&ir=Health%20News) by Dana Beyer.

[SiuiS]

Blah. Never mind. >.<

[Lady Tialait]

WARNING: My brain is half-dead right now, and this is just tired worry ranting.

Well, I figured out something today. I should stop analyzing not-yet-happening events regarding my son.

It's depressing.

My son is destined never to know a single straight person under the age of 60 in his childhood. I mean, other then my parents I don't know a single person who isn't at least slightly differing from the default that society offers up. This in itself isn't depressing, till the implications happen. What if my son is straight? Will he think something is wrong with him? Will he antagonize over coming out as straight to me? Will he fake some kind of bisexual or homosexualness? I fear I may be messing him up. After all, with the default in his bubble of society not being hetro, and the greater society having that as the default...bah. It's hard to put into words, I think it's just my mind acting weird compiled with overall being a crazy mother.

Any thoughts on the subject?

[Astrella]

Well, I think the same advice applies as in the reverse case; I'd have a talk with him explaining that there's a whole bunch of sexualities and genders out there and that none of those is better than the other and that he should listen to his own feelings and shouldn't feel like he has to be one or the other. It's best to just be open about it I feel.

There's still going to be heteronormativity coming from society and people outside your family, but aside from that I think it's important to have a talk like that with every child regardless of how they turn out and this doesn't have to be different from the reverse case in that matter.

[Lady Tialait]

He is only 4 right now so I don't expect him to know anything regarding sexuality. If he does...I would be surprised. I mean, I myself wasn't interested in boys till I was at least 12. My parents figured I would be like my younger brother, who is gay. Turns out, yes we are exactly the same...when it comes to tastes in men. We had to draw some boundaries in high school because of the abnormally high number of bisexual men at our school...by abnormal I mean, only one out of every ten guys I knew wasn't bisexual, if I excluded the gay guys I knew. At one point I thought maybe Oklahoma was in San Fransisco.

Also, I didn't know a single girl my age who wasn't bisexual. I had no interest in such things, and still don't. It was emotionally awkward, and made me feel like an outcast. I started feeling a little better about myself when high school was over and everyone started moving into monotonous relationships. So, even if they were bisexual, they seemed hetro...didn't feel so lonely.

Again, ranting...


edit: Also, your post had something go through my head. Do you know how awkward the discussion would be to tell your child "It's okay to be heterosexual"

[Zorg]

Unless you're planning on homeschooling him, keeping him from tv and not letting him socialise with anyone but the children of your friends, you'll be fine with him seeing hetronormativy in his life.
He'll make friends at school, meet their parents, see hetro families in most media, in books and so on. He might have a slightly skewed view of how common non-straightness is, but I seriously doubt he'll be thinking being straight is different the way many gay people feel when young.

And it's normal to worry about this stuff with kids, at least I do anyway :smalltongue:

[SiuiS]

He is only 4 right now so I don't expect him to know anything regarding sexuality. If he does...I would be surprised. I mean, I myself wasn't interested in boys till I was at least 12.

I knew about sex and was interested in it from a purely recreational and emotional bonding perspective, ever since I can remember. the earliest memories I have my family has been able to clock go out to almost three years old, barring an outlier at the Strawberry Festival when I was small enough to be in a carrier.

Boy, that sure got more awkward once hormones hit...

But my point is, you may be surprised. I know I didn't say anything about knowing it, because my parents made a spectacle of my knowing about sex. It was one of many things I never actually spoke about, until forced.



edit: Also, your post had something go through my head. Do you know how awkward the discussion would be to tell your child "It's okay to be heterosexual"

No more awkward than telling. One it's okay to be homosexual, surely?
Although I would shift focus. Not "it's okay to be a heterosexual" but instead, "it's okay to be you".

[turkishproverb]

WARNING: My brain is half-dead right now, and this is just tired worry ranting.

Well, I figured out something today. I should stop analyzing not-yet-happening events regarding my son.

It's depressing.

My son is destined never to know a single straight person under the age of 60 in his childhood. I mean, other then my parents I don't know a single person who isn't at least slightly differing from the default that society offers up. This in itself isn't depressing, till the implications happen. What if my son is straight? Will he think something is wrong with him? Will he antagonize over coming out as straight to me? Will he fake some kind of bisexual or homosexualness? I fear I may be messing him up. After all, with the default in his bubble of society not being hetro, and the greater society having that as the default...bah. It's hard to put into words, I think it's just my mind acting weird compiled with overall being a crazy mother.

Any thoughts on the subject?

If he's exposed to TV, BOOKS, Video games, etc... He'll figure out there are guys who seem to just like girls and girls who seem to just like guys. It's still the vast majority of depictions in pop culture are that way. Don't worry about it too much.

[Astrella]

I... Did I? I don't recall saying... Hmm.
Well, that definitely wasn't the intent on my part, luv. I'm sorry.

Thank you, it's okay.

[KenderWizard]

*snip*


That's a sweet worry to have, your son is lucky!

As other people have said, he'll get his examples, from plenty of real life and media sources. And kids are extremely good at picking stuff up (literally and figuratively!) so he probably won't even be confused by it.

I'm a firm believer in appropriate sex-ed at all ages. Four is old enough to say "Some children have a mammy and a daddy, but some have two daddies or two mammies, or some other person or people who love them and care for them. I love you and care for you." You can get picture books with different family set-ups now. ("Siobhan lives with her granny and her daddy. Aisling lives with her two mammies. Sean lives with his mammy and his daddy.") or you can just have your own conversation or look at photos. I'm framing this around families since it tends to be what four-year-olds would be more interested in, rather than a hypothetical future partner of theirs, but hey, maybe your son is precocious!

Bottom line, worrying is fine but don't be too anxious, he'll be fine, and it's never too early to start chatting about these things in a safe and age-appropriate manner!

[Heliomance]

The End of Transgender as a Mental Illness (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dana-beyer/the-end-of-transgender-as-a-mental-illness_b_2238147.html?utm_hp_ref=health-news&ir=Health%20News) by Dana Beyer.

Counter-argument (http://juliaserano.blogspot.com/2012/12/trans-people-still-disordered-according.html)

[Castaras]

Surely Gender Dysphoria should be a physical issue? Isn't it mainly the body that is the issue, not the mind?

[Astrella]

Surely Gender Dysphoria should be a physical issue? Isn't it mainly the body that is the issue, not the mind?

We've had a heated argument about it before, but basically it depends on how you classify stuff. The treatment for gender dysphoria can be mostly physical, though there's a big social aspect as well, however the symptoms are mostly mental. So it depends if you want to classify by treatment or by symptoms. I myself don't really care what it is classified as as long as people get the treatment they need. The thingie Helio linked is a way bigger problem in my eyes.

[KerfuffleMach2]

I think it might be a little too early to be worrying about such things, but I'm not a parent, so what do I know?

But yeah, if your son is straight, I don't think he's going to feel too weird about it. Mostly cause he'll meet plenty of people at school and stuff who are also straight. If anything, I think your specific situation will make him more open and accepting of all positions on the sexual spectrum.

And, worst comes to worst, if you have trouble explaining stuff, just let him loose on the internet for a while. He'll figure it out. :smallbiggrin:

[Socratov]

Surely Gender Dysphoria should be a physical issue? Isn't it mainly the body that is the issue, not the mind?

I'd say it's an issue of both (or rather the mismatch between the 2)

[noparlpf]

The End of Transgender as a Mental Illness (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dana-beyer/the-end-of-transgender-as-a-mental-illness_b_2238147.html?utm_hp_ref=health-news&ir=Health%20News) by Dana Beyer.

Wait, I thought it didn't come into effect until it's published in (I thought they said) May. Welp. I was planning to completely ignore the sections relevant to me anyway so whatever.


WARNING: My brain is half-dead right now, and this is just tired worry ranting.

Well, I figured out something today. I should stop analyzing not-yet-happening events regarding my son.

It's depressing.

My son is destined never to know a single straight person under the age of 60 in his childhood. I mean, other then my parents I don't know a single person who isn't at least slightly differing from the default that society offers up. This in itself isn't depressing, till the implications happen. What if my son is straight? Will he think something is wrong with him? Will he antagonize over coming out as straight to me? Will he fake some kind of bisexual or homosexualness? I fear I may be messing him up. After all, with the default in his bubble of society not being hetro, and the greater society having that as the default...bah. It's hard to put into words, I think it's just my mind acting weird compiled with overall being a crazy mother.

Any thoughts on the subject?


He is only 4 right now so I don't expect him to know anything regarding sexuality. If he does...I would be surprised. I mean, I myself wasn't interested in boys till I was at least 12. My parents figured I would be like my younger brother, who is gay. Turns out, yes we are exactly the same...when it comes to tastes in men. We had to draw some boundaries in high school because of the abnormally high number of bisexual men at our school...by abnormal I mean, only one out of every ten guys I knew wasn't bisexual, if I excluded the gay guys I knew. At one point I thought maybe Oklahoma was in San Fransisco.

Also, I didn't know a single girl my age who wasn't bisexual. I had no interest in such things, and still don't. It was emotionally awkward, and made me feel like an outcast. I started feeling a little better about myself when high school was over and everyone started moving into monotonous relationships. So, even if they were bisexual, they seemed hetro...didn't feel so lonely.

Again, ranting...

edit: Also, your post had something go through my head. Do you know how awkward the discussion would be to tell your child "It's okay to be heterosexual"

Hey, my mum explained how babies were made and that there are different sexualities to me when I was only two or so, because I asked where babies come from. I think you're underestimating what kids will understand. Sure, maybe he won't quite grasp what sexuality is actually like until he's into puberty, but he should understand the gist of it just fine.


Counter-argument (http://juliaserano.blogspot.com/2012/12/trans-people-still-disordered-according.html)

What even. I hadn't heard about those ones before but they sound incredibly stupid. (Also I read her book. Or at least parts of it because I'm awful at doing readings for classes.)


Surely Gender Dysphoria should be a physical issue? Isn't it mainly the body that is the issue, not the mind?

As we've been through this several times...
Well speaking from a clinical perspective, it's the brain that formed "incorrectly", not the body. Now, taking into account that there's an actual person in there, yeah, practically speaking the body is the issue.


Edit:
And, worst comes to worst, if you have trouble explaining stuff, just let him loose on the internet for a while. He'll figure it out. :smallbiggrin:

DO NOT let your kids loose on the internet. The internet is basically the worst place to learn about things. Especially things like sexuality.

[KenderWizard]

Counter-argument (http://juliaserano.blogspot.com/2012/12/trans-people-still-disordered-according.html)

:smallfrown: That makes no sense and is awful. I don't know why people even bother classifying sexual interests that are safe, sane and consensual, to borrow BDSM's term. I mean, people have different sexual interests, why pathologise something if it's harmless and involves one or more consenting adults? And to then take one of those classifications and dump it on a whole group of other people who are similar in your cissexist view to the first group of people is just a whole pile of **********, and wildly unfair to both groups.



Hey, my mum explained how babies were made and that there are different sexualities to me when I was only two or so, because I asked where babies come from. I think you're underestimating what kids will understand. Sure, maybe he won't quite grasp what sexuality is actually like until he's into puberty, but he should understand the gist of it just fine.

Also, sexuality isn't something that turns on when a person hits puberty. Like lots of other parts of humans, it matures during puberty, but it's there growing in the background from the start and is something a child learns about themselves from early on.




DO NOT let your kids loose on the internet. The internet is basically the worst place to learn about things. Especially things like sexuality.

I actually had less damage done from googling stuff on the internet than from learning things from my classmates in school, but neither is a good substitute for factual information from a loving and engaged adult with the child's best interests in mind.

[noparlpf]

Also, sexuality isn't something that turns on when a person hits puberty. Like lots of other parts of humans, it matures during puberty, but it's there growing in the background from the start and is something a child learns about themselves from early on.

True. Some kids know what they like when they're a lot younger, some don't really notice until they're a little older. It varies.


I actually had less damage done from Googling stuff on the internet than from learning things from my classmates in school, but neither is a good substitute for factual information from a loving and engaged adult with the child's best interests in mind.

I dunno, maybe you had Safe Search on. I can tell you, there are so many things I probably shouldn't have learned when I was thirteen and just exploring the internet.

[Kindablue]

Counter-argument (http://juliaserano.blogspot.com/2012/12/trans-people-still-disordered-according.html)

'I don't want to leave the impression that the job is complete. Just as the removal of homosexuality in 1973 was partial,the exclusion not completed until 1987,there is still work to be done for the broader trans community. The DSM still dehumanizes garden-variety cross-dressing under the category "transvestic fetishism," particularly insulting in its use of the term "fetish." And there are many activists who feel that the APA didn't go far enough and oppose the mention of any form of cross-gender behavior in the DSM,including the new category,"gender dysphoria."'

[Serpentine]

I've known about sex since I could read, what with Where Did I Come From being one of my first books. Knew about sexuality by about 11, but had no idea what mine was.
Wait, what.Politics :I If you Google "heterosexual officer" you'll be able to find references to it, and can trace the details from there.

[KerfuffleMach2]

Edit:

DO NOT let your kids loose on the internet. The internet is basically the worst place to learn about things. Especially things like sexuality.

I was joking with that. Sorry if that didn't come across clear enough. Makes me wish tone if voice could be done in a post. Probably reduce a lot of confusion.

[Socratov]

I was joking with that. Sorry if that didn't come across clear enough. Makes me wish tone if voice could be done in a post. Probably reduce a lot of confusion.

That's what we have been given the color blue for.

I mean, nobody would even think of blue being the color for sarcasm... :smallwink:

[Kindablue]

That's what we have been given the color blue for.

I mean, nobody would even think of blue being the color for sarcasm... :smallwink:

Blue can do more than that. :c

[Mono Vertigo]

Also, sexuality isn't something that turns on when a person hits puberty.
Or turns off. :smallwink:
I remember having "crushes" on a couple boys as a kid. However, I was younger than 8. At the time, it must instead have been a strong desire to be friends, as I just wanted to spend time with them, but it's hard for a child to tell the difference with so little experience.
And yet, kids are more perceptive and understanding than one may give them credit for. They're a complicated bunch.

[Absol197]

So I've got news!

Yesterday I was meeting with my therapist, and she told me about a Trans support group that was meeting a couple hours after our time was up. So I decided to head on over and check it out.

Apparently, a lot of the regular people weren't there, so with me there were only six people total, and I had to leave an hour early because of stupid early work times, but it was still nice. And actually, it was the first time I'd met another trans person in real life before (as far as I know).

So, yeah, that was fun. Although apparently me making the decision that this was something I wanted to do and was worth being tired in the morning is an example of me being completely irresponsible and putting my job at risk. At least according to my mother :smallsigh: . Along that line of thought, after discussing the matter with my therapist, it is her professional opinion that my parents are controlling to an unhealthy extreme. Which I've pretty much always known, but it's nice to have a professional who agrees. The only problem is, one of my parent's big issues is that I "self-diagnosed, and then found a therapist who agrees with me so I could rush down this path." So having her agree might not actually be as powerful a tool in their eyes as one might hope...:smallsigh:

Also, while I'm glad that GID is no longer a disorder (I personally have no problem with gender dysphoria, as it is rather distressing, and if there's an official disagnosis, there's an official treatment: transition!), but the new stuff is...icky and saddening :smallfrown: . I say it all too much: what's wrong with people? Why can't they just leave others alone?


~Phoenix~

[Lix Lorn]

The only problem is, one of my parent's big issues is that I "self-diagnosed, and then found a therapist who agrees with me so I could rush down this path." So having her agree might not actually be as powerful a tool in their eyes as one might hope...:smallsigh:
This is pretty dumb. Who else is qualified to diagnose your gender? :smallsigh:
(hugs)

[The Succubus]

This is pretty dumb. Who else is qualified to diagnose your gender? :smallsigh:
(hugs)

Yes, because everyone *wants* to feel unhappy about their gender, undergo difficult and life-changing treatment and therapists get a 20% comission and holiday vouchers for every patient that signs up for SRS. :smallsigh:

I'm usually very unhappy when patients try to self-diagnose and second guess what horrible physical condition they might have. I would never have the audacity to diagnose what gender someone's soul is though.

[Lix Lorn]

Yes, because everyone *wants* to feel unhappy about their gender, undergo difficult and life-changing treatment and therapists get a 20% comission and holiday vouchers for every patient that signs up for SRS. :smallsigh:

I'm usually very unhappy when patients try to self-diagnose and second guess what horrible physical condition they might have. I would never have the audacity to diagnose what gender someone's soul is though.
...that's what I just said. Why did you quote me and then disagree with me by saying exactly the same thing with more words? ._.

[Astrella]

So I've got news!

Yesterday I was meeting with my therapist, and she told me about a Trans support group that was meeting a couple hours after our time was up. So I decided to head on over and check it out.

Apparently, a lot of the regular people weren't there, so with me there were only six people total, and I had to leave an hour early because of stupid early work times, but it was still nice. And actually, it was the first time I'd met another trans person in real life before (as far as I know).

So, yeah, that was fun. Although apparently me making the decision that this was something I wanted to do and was worth being tired in the morning is an example of me being completely irresponsible and putting my job at risk. At least according to my mother :smallsigh: . Along that line of thought, after discussing the matter with my therapist, it is her professional opinion that my parents are controlling to an unhealthy extreme. Which I've pretty much always known, but it's nice to have a professional who agrees. The only problem is, one of my parent's big issues is that I "self-diagnosed, and then found a therapist who agrees with me so I could rush down this path." So having her agree might not actually be as powerful a tool in their eyes as one might hope...:smallsigh:

Also, while I'm glad that GID is no longer a disorder (I personally have no problem with gender dysphoria, as it is rather distressing, and if there's an official disagnosis, there's an official treatment: transition!), but the new stuff is...icky and saddening :smallfrown: . I say it all too much: what's wrong with people? Why can't they just leave others alone?


~Phoenix~

Glad the support group turned out well, hun. :smallsmile:

And sorry to hear about your parents. It just makes little sense you know? Why would you go to a gender therapist after all if you weren't having stuff involving your gender going on?

Yeah, that is really awful. It was around already but Blanchard basically expanded it in his neverending obsession with people's gender and sexuality.

[Serpentine]

Lix: He's agreeing with you, hun. He's just continuing on your train of thought.

[KenderWizard]

On the internet, erotica, gender, etc, spoilered for the erotica part, just in case:



I dunno, maybe you had Safe Search on. I can tell you, there are so many things I probably shouldn't have learned when I was thirteen and just exploring the internet.

Oh I certainly did not have safe search on! I dunno, at least most of what's on the internet is true. It probably also helped that I got a lot of it from written erotica, which used words and described what was going on, rather than visual porn, which is still baffling to me.

Apparently there's a gender divide on that, but I don't know why and I don't know where the various alphabet soup letters fall, but that men are more likely to go for visual erotica and women go for written erotica. I suspect it's mostly cultural (what you're used to, based on what other people were doing at the time you began, and then that self-perpetuates).

Also, apparently, there's a theory women are into m/m slash-fic because it removes problematic gender roles from the scenario. I know it certainly helps me, it's nice not to think about problematic gendering when I'm reading Loki/Thor fanfic. :smallbiggrin:


I was joking with that. Sorry if that didn't come across clear enough. Makes me wish tone if voice could be done in a post. Probably reduce a lot of confusion.

You can always use "#notreally" or "#jk" or "/sarcasm", or strategically placed emoticons: "Oh, yeah, I love killing babies. :smallconfused:"


Or turns off. :smallwink:
I remember having "crushes" on a couple boys as a kid. However, I was younger than 8. At the time, it must instead have been a strong desire to be friends, as I just wanted to spend time with them, but it's hard for a child to tell the difference with so little experience.
And yet, kids are more perceptive and understanding than one may give them credit for. They're a complicated bunch.

Hm, do you consider asexuality to be an absence or a presence of something different? Are you "missing" your sexuality or is your sexuality there, but filled in as "not interested in this"? I know you're demisexual, but generally. I've been thinking of it as a thing that one has, but I suppose one could also think of it as an absence.

[Lix Lorn]

On the internet, erotica, gender, etc, spoilered for the erotica part, just in case:
Also, apparently, there's a theory women are into m/m slash-fic because it removes problematic gender roles from the scenario. I know it certainly helps me, it's nice not to think about problematic gendering when I'm reading Loki/Thor fanfic. :smallbiggrin:
This theory seems kinda... inaccurate. Most M/m slash fic tends to have one partner being big and strong and the other being feminine and bishie.


Lix: He's agreeing with you, hun. He's just continuing on your train of thought.
Well that's what I thought, just the way the words were made me all paranoid!

[noparlpf]

I've known about sex since I could read, what with Where Did I Come From being one of my first books. Knew about sexuality by about 11, but had no idea what mine was.

Politics :I If you Google "heterosexual officer" you'll be able to find references to it, and can trace the details from there.

Hey, that was one of my first books too!

I'm a little afraid to look that up, I think I'll pass.


So I've got news!

Yesterday I was meeting with my therapist, and she told me about a Trans support group that was meeting a couple hours after our time was up. So I decided to head on over and check it out.

Apparently, a lot of the regular people weren't there, so with me there were only six people total, and I had to leave an hour early because of stupid early work times, but it was still nice. And actually, it was the first time I'd met another trans person in real life before (as far as I know).

So, yeah, that was fun. Although apparently me making the decision that this was something I wanted to do and was worth being tired in the morning is an example of me being completely irresponsible and putting my job at risk. At least according to my mother :smallsigh: . Along that line of thought, after discussing the matter with my therapist, it is her professional opinion that my parents are controlling to an unhealthy extreme. Which I've pretty much always known, but it's nice to have a professional who agrees. The only problem is, one of my parent's big issues is that I "self-diagnosed, and then found a therapist who agrees with me so I could rush down this path." So having her agree might not actually be as powerful a tool in their eyes as one might hope...:smallsigh:

Also, while I'm glad that GID is no longer a disorder (I personally have no problem with gender dysphoria, as it is rather distressing, and if there's an official disagnosis, there's an official treatment: transition!), but the new stuff is...icky and saddening :smallfrown: . I say it all too much: what's wrong with people? Why can't they just leave others alone?


~Phoenix~

Glad the group thing went well.
Any chance of moving out in the near future?


On the internet, erotica, gender, etc, spoilered for the erotica part, just in case:
Oh I certainly did not have safe search on! I dunno, at least most of what's on the internet is true. It probably also helped that I got a lot of it from written erotica, which used words and described what was going on, rather than visual porn, which is still baffling to me.

Apparently there's a gender divide on that, but I don't know why and I don't know where the various alphabet soup letters fall, but that men are more likely to go for visual erotica and women go for written erotica. I suspect it's mostly cultural (what you're used to, based on what other people were doing at the time you began, and then that self-perpetuates).

Also, apparently, there's a theory women are into m/m slash-fic because it removes problematic gender roles from the scenario. I know it certainly helps me, it's nice not to think about problematic gendering when I'm reading Loki/Thor fanfic. :smallbiggrin:

Yeah, baffling is probably a good word for visual porn. It's so unrealistic, for one thing, which is bad because it's most of where young men and many young women get their "sex ed". Plus (I think) it's pretty boring. As for why there's that gender divide, I've read in a few places that they've found some connections between the visual cortex and parts related to sexuality in men, but significantly fewer connections between the same two areas in women. (Don't remember if I've read anything regarding similar in lesbians vs. gay men, &c.) There are various arguments as to why that evolved, some a little bit silly, as is the case in most arguments where people who don't actually get how evolution works start hypothesising about it. There is probably also a large cultural factor involved. For example, it seems likely that America's massive breast fetish is primarily cultural rather than an innate thing in heterosexual men.

[Mono Vertigo]

You can always use "#notreally" or "#jk" or "/sarcasm", or strategically placed emoticons: "Oh, yeah, I love killing babies. :smallconfused:"

I do.
... wait, this is not the Dwarf Fortress thread. :smalleek:


Hm, do you consider asexuality to be an absence or a presence of something different? Are you "missing" your sexuality or is your sexuality there, but filled in as "not interested in this"? I know you're demisexual, but generally. I've been thinking of it as a thing that one has, but I suppose one could also think of it as an absence.
It was meant more as a tongue-in-cheek remark, but anyway, here I go.
It's a sort of absence, in that it's like most other sexualities, but less. No libido (except for that one exception, and even then, according to stereotypes, my desire is so infrequent it would make them cry*). I have obviously the potential for romantic attraction, but even that is muted down; whereas, from what I understand, hetero/bi/pan/homosexuals generally feel that attraction much more frequently than I do.
And of course, at the same time, it's not actually an absence, because I don't feel I'm missing anything.
So, it's not actually an absence, it's just the same thing as most people, but hilariously toned down. Given there are as many kind of asexuality as asexuals, I suppose some have more libido than I do**, some even less, and all guesses are off concerning romantic attraction.


*BF confirmed to me what I've been thinking; he labels himself as bisexual, but is really more biromantic demisexual. So things go harmoniously between us without problems to discuss about. It's easy to imagine more issues come up if only one partner is ace/demi in a couple...
**I have so little libido I don't, err, have fun on my own. No need or desire to do so. Tried, not my thing at all. I've heard some asexuals are unlike me in that regard; after all, it's not a requirement for any kind of sexuality.

[Absol197]

Glad the group thing went well.
Any chance of moving out in the near future?

Not really. I've done the calculations several times (and my mom has too), and with my current salary, moving into the cheapest place I can find that's on my way to work, I'll have a grand total of ~$120 a month that doesn't go towards housing and utilities, car and device payments, and food. Considering my therapist currently costs $240 a month...

And that's also assuming that I keep my current job. I'm a contractor right now, and the contract ends in February. If the company doesn't decide to or can't keep me on, then I'm unemployed again (but with more experience and another good reference on my side), meaning I really can't afford it.

And that's without considering any level of transition, such as new clothes, hair removal, hormones, saving for SRS...and I still need to buy a new car; my current one, though I love her, is getting old and has horrible gas milage, which eats into my funds even more.

While I dislike that my parents first thoughts are about money, and my mental health seems to have fallen to #2 or less, I can't deny that it is a big concern...


~Phoenix~

[KenderWizard]

Slash fic:


This theory seems kinda... inaccurate. Most M/m slash fic tends to have one partner being big and strong and the other being feminine and bishie.

No, if anything, that makes it more likely! The partners can have a difference in strength or dominance or whatever, and because they're both the same gender, the difference is ascribed automatically to personality rather than gender. (Unless, I suppose, a big deal is being made of race or something else... but I don't have any cultural assumptions about mixed-race same-sex relationships, so I don't even know which partner in a combination of races would be which personality type.) So you can have a power struggle or a dom/sub fantasy or a storybook romance or whatever you like and since the parts are doled on based on personality; dominant assertive man as romancer and shy initially-dubious man as romancee, you don't have part of your brain being like "This is invoking/subverting/underlining x gender trope". Gender is irrelevant, since we're taught that male is default, so it's all about story. Or, more likely, it's all about anal sex.




It was meant more as a tongue-in-cheek remark, but anyway, here I go.
It's a sort of absence, in that it's like most other sexualities, but less. No libido (except for that one exception, and even then, according to stereotypes, my desire is so infrequent it would make them cry*). I have obviously the potential for romantic attraction, but even that is muted down; whereas, from what I understand, hetero/bi/pan/homosexuals generally feel that attraction much more frequently than I do.
And of course, at the same time, it's not actually an absence, because I don't feel I'm missing anything.
So, it's not actually an absence, it's just the same thing as most people, but hilariously toned down. Given there are as many kind of asexuality as asexuals, I suppose some have more libido than I do**, some even less, and all guesses are off concerning romantic attraction.


*BF confirmed to me what I've been thinking; he labels himself as bisexual, but is really more biromantic demisexual. So things go harmoniously between us without problems to discuss about. It's easy to imagine more issues come up if only one partner is ace/demi in a couple...
**I have so little libido I don't, err, have fun on my own. No need or desire to do so. Tried, not my thing at all. I've heard some asexuals are unlike me in that regard; after all, it's not a requirement for any kind of sexuality.

That makes a lot of sense, thank you for describing it!

[Astrella]

Slash fic:

The main example I have of this is yaoi, but doesn't it still follow the same genders stereotypes though in that the feminine partner is submissive and vice versa?

[The Succubus]

When it comes to matters of slash fiction, I always defer to Lixie.

[Zorg]

Slash fic:



No, if anything, that makes it more likely! The partners can have a difference in strength or dominance or whatever, and because they're both the same gender, the difference is ascribed automatically to personality rather than gender. (Unless, I suppose, a big deal is being made of race or something else... but I don't have any cultural assumptions about mixed-race same-sex relationships, so I don't even know which partner in a combination of races would be which personality type.) So you can have a power struggle or a dom/sub fantasy or a storybook romance or whatever you like and since the parts are doled on based on personality; dominant assertive man as romancer and shy initially-dubious man as romancee, you don't have part of your brain being like "This is invoking/subverting/underlining x gender trope". Gender is irrelevant, since we're taught that male is default, so it's all about story. Or, more likely, it's all about anal sex.


Slash fic:

The main example I have of this is yaoi, but doesn't it still follow the same genders stereotypes though in that the feminine partner is submissive and vice versa?

Lies! Niether of those spoilers contained any slash fic at all!


:smalltongue:



While I dislike that my parents first thoughts are about money, and my mental health seems to have fallen to #2 or less, I can't deny that it is a big concern...

Hmmm, it could just be that money is something easy for them to get a handle on and relate to with you. And as you said with all these bills upcoming I'm sure they're also worried about your brain-health and how you'd be if you were broke on top of everything else.
Also good to hear the group was a fun experience. Perhaps if you can go again soon you can source advice on dealign with parentals?

[the_druid_droid]

Any thoughts on the subject?

I will just second what others have already said to the effect that he'll probably get a healthy dose of exposure to heterosexuality just from soaking in culture at large, and that the best way to handle things if it bothers you is an open and honest conversation about the fact that it's ok for him to be himself, and that he's going to be loved no matter what. I would also agree with others that it isn't necessarily too early to approach the topic; Kender's recommendation about books seems like it might be particularly helpful.

Of course, the disclaimer is that I don't have kids, so take my advice with a healthy dose of your own intuition and knowledge of the situation.


Blue can do more than that. :c

He can also make insightful remarks and post neat links!


So, yeah, that was fun. Although apparently me making the decision that this was something I wanted to do and was worth being tired in the morning is an example of me being completely irresponsible and putting my job at risk. At least according to my mother :smallsigh: . Along that line of thought, after discussing the matter with my therapist, it is her professional opinion that my parents are controlling to an unhealthy extreme. Which I've pretty much always known, but it's nice to have a professional who agrees. The only problem is, one of my parent's big issues is that I "self-diagnosed, and then found a therapist who agrees with me so I could rush down this path." So having her agree might not actually be as powerful a tool in their eyes as one might hope...:smallsigh:

I would say that the second half of this really supports the "controlling" conclusion of the first half, unfortunately. I know you mentioned a bit later on that finances right now aren't really such that you could manage to move out, but especially with the contract renewal looming, it might be good to try and put some concrete numbers on major one-time expenses (like the car) and see if there's any way to put some money away toward them. I'm thinking in particular about tax return season, and the possibility that you might be able to renegotiate a slightly higher pay on the basis of experience earned (assuming contract renewal goes in your favor).

The main reason I emphasize this is that holding the reins of finance is a powerful form of control, and since that seems to be a big issue for your family, I think breaking that up could help the situation a lot. That and the physical distance having your own place would provide may give you some better breathing room. Of course, I'm sure you're aware of these things, I just want to encourage you to keep your eyes out for opportunities and to think about saving up toward some of these goals, even if it's a very tiny amount right now.


I do.
... wait, this is not the Dwarf Fortress thread. :smalleek:

It was meant more as a tongue-in-cheek remark, but anyway, here I go.
It's a sort of absence, in that it's like most other sexualities, but less. No libido (except for that one exception, and even then, according to stereotypes, my desire is so infrequent it would make them cry*). I have obviously the potential for romantic attraction, but even that is muted down; whereas, from what I understand, hetero/bi/pan/homosexuals generally feel that attraction much more frequently than I do.
And of course, at the same time, it's not actually an absence, because I don't feel I'm missing anything.
So, it's not actually an absence, it's just the same thing as most people, but hilariously toned down. Given there are as many kind of asexuality as asexuals, I suppose some have more libido than I do**, some even less, and all guesses are off concerning romantic attraction.


*BF confirmed to me what I've been thinking; he labels himself as bisexual, but is really more biromantic demisexual. So things go harmoniously between us without problems to discuss about. It's easy to imagine more issues come up if only one partner is ace/demi in a couple...
**I have so little libido I don't, err, have fun on my own. No need or desire to do so. Tried, not my thing at all. I've heard some asexuals are unlike me in that regard; after all, it's not a requirement for any kind of sexuality.

Hmm, I realized that I don't really know what demisexual refers to. And come to think of it, only a vague idea about asexual. Could someone help me out?


Slash fic:



No, if anything, that makes it more likely! The partners can have a difference in strength or dominance or whatever, and because they're both the same gender, the difference is ascribed automatically to personality rather than gender. (Unless, I suppose, a big deal is being made of race or something else... but I don't have any cultural assumptions about mixed-race same-sex relationships, so I don't even know which partner in a combination of races would be which personality type.) So you can have a power struggle or a dom/sub fantasy or a storybook romance or whatever you like and since the parts are doled on based on personality; dominant assertive man as romancer and shy initially-dubious man as romancee, you don't have part of your brain being like "This is invoking/subverting/underlining x gender trope". Gender is irrelevant, since we're taught that male is default, so it's all about story. Or, more likely, it's all about anal sex.


I'm so glad I wasn't drinking anything when I read this. That last line...

[noparlpf]

Slash fic:

The main example I have of this is yaoi, but doesn't it still follow the same genders stereotypes though in that the feminine partner is submissive and vice versa?

Nope. In plenty of heterosexual pairings you see the female dominant and the guy submissive.

[Astrella]

Nope. In plenty of heterosexual pairings you see the female dominant and the guy submissive.

Well, it's not going to be like that in every pairing, but I do think it's still the most common situation. What I mostly mean is that masculinity still has strong ties to dominance and femininity to submissiveness in culture and I was wondering to what degree that translated to same gender pairings in media as well.

[noparlpf]

Well, it's not going to be like that in every pairing, but I do think it's still the most common situation. What I mostly mean is that masculinity still has strong ties to dominance and femininity to submissiveness in culture and I was wondering to what degree that translated to same gender pairings in media as well.

I dunno, the stuff I've read with heterosexual pairings is fairly well mixed in terms of which gender is more dominant or submissive, though there's a surprising lack of fiction with equality between the partners. What's up with that?

[KerfuffleMach2]

Not really. I've done the calculations several times (and my mom has too), and with my current salary, moving into the cheapest place I can find that's on my way to work, I'll have a grand total of ~$120 a month that doesn't go towards housing and utilities, car and device payments, and food. Considering my therapist currently costs $240 a month...

And that's also assuming that I keep my current job. I'm a contractor right now, and the contract ends in February. If the company doesn't decide to or can't keep me on, then I'm unemployed again (but with more experience and another good reference on my side), meaning I really can't afford it.

And that's without considering any level of transition, such as new clothes, hair removal, hormones, saving for SRS...and I still need to buy a new car; my current one, though I love her, is getting old and has horrible gas milage, which eats into my funds even more.

While I dislike that my parents first thoughts are about money, and my mental health seems to have fallen to #2 or less, I can't deny that it is a big concern...


~Phoenix~

Check your health insurance, if you have any. They might cover it. Or at least a chunk of it.

[Astrella]

I dunno, the stuff I've read with heterosexual pairings is fairly well mixed in terms of which gender is more dominant or submissive, though there's a surprising lack of fiction with equality between the partners. What's up with that?

What do you mean with equality between the partners?

[noparlpf]

What do you mean with equality between the partners?

Like, I feel like I almost always see one partner doing the majority of the pursuing, or the wooing, &c. Not so much both being equally proactive there.

[KenderWizard]

I suppose if they're both pursuing, there's no conflict to overcome?
"I want you."
"Well, I want you too!"
...
"Oh. Awesome. Dinner at 8?"
"Perfect."


Slash fic:

The main example I have of this is yaoi, but doesn't it still follow the same genders stereotypes though in that the feminine partner is submissive and vice versa?

One step at a time? Again, maybe my fic-reading isn't typical, but generally I don't code one character as "feminine". I often see "physical" vs "intellectual", or "assertive" vs "retiring".


Lies! Niether of those spoilers contained any slash fic at all!


I laughed!

[noparlpf]

I suppose if they're both pursuing, there's no conflict to overcome?
"I want you."
"Well, I want you too!"
...
"Oh. Awesome. Dinner at 8?"
"Perfect."

Could be. Is it really impossible to write a story without some kind of conflict or obstacles to overcome?

[Kindablue]

Slash fic:

The main example I have of this is yaoi, but doesn't it still follow the same genders stereotypes though in that the feminine partner is submissive and vice versa?


Nope. In plenty of heterosexual pairings you see the female dominant and the guy submissive.
There are female/male pairings in yaoi? I thought she meant "it still reinforces the stereotype of male-dominant/female-submissive relationships even if they're both guys."

I never saw the appeal. It always looked like underfed draculas getting it on with each other to me.

[noparlpf]

There are female/male pairings in yaoi? I thought she meant "it still reinforces the stereotype of male-dominant/female-submissive relationships even if they're both guys."

I never saw the appeal. It always looked like underfed draculas getting it on with each other to me.

I specified heterosexual pairings. As in, "even in heterosexual pairings, you don't always see the stereotype of male-dominant/female-submissive".

Edit: Oh yeah, the appeal. I dunno, boredom?

[Kindablue]

I specified heterosexual pairings. As in, "even in heterosexual pairings, you don't always see the stereotype of male-dominant/female-submissive".

Edit: Oh yeah, the appeal. I dunno, boredom?

I still don't see what you mean. That it isn't universal doesn't mean it isn't widely accepted to be.

[KerfuffleMach2]

Could be. Is it really impossible to write a story without some kind of conflict or obstacles to overcome?

It's not impossible, but I don't think it would really do well. Every story I can think of has conflict of some kind in it. That's part of what makes it interesting.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

It's not impossible, but I don't think it would really do well. Every story I can think of has conflict of some kind in it. That's part of what makes it interesting.

This is true, but the conflict doesn't always have to revolve around winning someone else's affections. One could easily write a story where two go-getter types like each other and start up a relationship with no problems, and then the conflict would come in later--maybe they overlooked some personality incompatibility issues earlier, maybe their relationship is fine but they're taking flack from their friends, maybe one of them finds another compatible go-getter type and cheats, etc. Dividing every pair into dominant/pursuer vs. submissive/pursued and/or masculine vs. feminine just makes stories more formulaic.

[KerfuffleMach2]

This is true, but the conflict doesn't always have to revolve around winning someone else's affections. One could easily write a story where two go-getter types like each other and start up a relationship with no problems, and then the conflict would come in later--maybe they overlooked some personality incompatibility issues earlier, maybe their relationship is fine but they're taking flack from their friends, maybe one of them finds another compatible go-getter type and cheats, etc. Dividing every pair into dominant/pursuer vs. submissive/pursued and/or masculine vs. feminine just makes stories more formulaic.

Fair enough.

Not much of a writer myself, so I didn't really think of those. Course, now they seem obvious.

[golentan]

On Children: Yeah, I've said it before and I'll say it again. Children can be sexual creatures before puberty kicks in. I went ahead and kissed several people with romantic feelings before I ever had body hair, significant numbers of clothes came off with two other kids that I remember, and while I had no idea what to do or how to do it even had I been physically capable of sex, I knew I wanted to go past kissing. And then I hit a dry spell for about a decade and a half starting shortly before puberty.* Hrrm. :smallwink: (this is not an endorsement of children engaging in sexual behavior: I think that's best left until they've matured into people responsible enough to consent with full understanding of their actions. That said, explaining sexuality to children so they know what's okay and what's not and when to go to an adult for help and protection, or seeing a child acting semi-sexually on their own initiative is not immediate cause for concern unless you have reason to suspect abuse or that the child is engaging in behavior that could get them in serious trouble)

On Fiction: I think a lot of the dominant-submissive partner thing is really left over cultural baggage, combined maybe with some fetishism. The greeks differentiated based not so much on gender as on who was pitching/catching, so to speak. And I know I have a preference for taking a more submissive/receptive role, so I tend to like fiction from the point of view of someone being slightly dominated so long as I don't feel it crosses into disrespect.

*Also I was abused at about that time and started pulling away from my sexuality. Life can suck sometimes.

[Absol197]

**snip*

Oh no Golly, that sounds terrible :smallfrown: ! I'm really sorry that happened. Have some *hugs*


~Phoenix~

[golentan]

Oh no Golly, that sounds terrible :smallfrown: ! I'm really sorry that happened. Have some *hugs*


~Phoenix~

Thanks for your concern.

[Arachu]

I've been attracted to girls since I was... 6 or 7, I think. I wasn't really interested in dating or anything until I was 10 or 11, though. Sometimes I was curious about boys, but I didn't notice how cute they can be until I was 16. :smalltongue:

On the Internet: I'm not sure it's (necessarily) that harmful in and of itself. I had a rather traumatizing time learning that females don't have Barbie doll anatomy, but that was probably because I actually thought they did (I'd known about reproduction for years, just not the mechanics)...


So I've got news!

Yesterday I was meeting with my therapist, and she told me about a Trans support group that was meeting a couple hours after our time was up. So I decided to head on over and check it out.

Apparently, a lot of the regular people weren't there, so with me there were only six people total, and I had to leave an hour early because of stupid early work times, but it was still nice. And actually, it was the first time I'd met another trans person in real life before (as far as I know).

Yay~ :smallbiggrin:


So, yeah, that was fun. Although apparently me making the decision that this was something I wanted to do and was worth being tired in the morning is an example of me being completely irresponsible and putting my job at risk. At least according to my mother :smallsigh: . Along that line of thought, after discussing the matter with my therapist, it is her professional opinion that my parents are controlling to an unhealthy extreme. Which I've pretty much always known, but it's nice to have a professional who agrees. The only problem is, one of my parent's big issues is that I "self-diagnosed, and then found a therapist who agrees with me so I could rush down this path." So having her agree might not actually be as powerful a tool in their eyes as one might hope...:smallsigh:

Also, while I'm glad that GID is no longer a disorder (I personally have no problem with gender dysphoria, as it is rather distressing, and if there's an official disagnosis, there's an official treatment: transition!), but the new stuff is...icky and saddening :smallfrown: . I say it all too much: what's wrong with people? Why can't they just leave others alone?


~Phoenix~

Reminds me of when I turned 18 and my parents were personally offended by a nurse telling them I had to sign a paper to give them access to my medical records. *So many hugs* >.>


*Also I was abused at about that time and started pulling away from my sexuality. Life can suck sometimes.

*Hugs!*


~Bianca

[KenderWizard]

Could be. Is it really impossible to write a story without some kind of conflict or obstacles to overcome?

It is if you want your story to have a plot?

The stories I read mostly revolve around the conflicts of the Princes of Asgard, rather than pursuer/pursued. :smallbiggrin:

[Lix Lorn]

Slash fic:

No, if anything, that makes it more likely! The partners can have a difference in strength or dominance or whatever, and because they're both the same gender, the difference is ascribed automatically to personality rather than gender. (Unless, I suppose, a big deal is being made of race or something else... but I don't have any cultural assumptions about mixed-race same-sex relationships, so I don't even know which partner in a combination of races would be which personality type.) So you can have a power struggle or a dom/sub fantasy or a storybook romance or whatever you like and since the parts are doled on based on personality; dominant assertive man as romancer and shy initially-dubious man as romancee, you don't have part of your brain being like "This is invoking/subverting/underlining x gender trope". Gender is irrelevant, since we're taught that male is default, so it's all about story. Or, more likely, it's all about anal sex.
Oh, that's what you meant. Okay. That makes sense. xD


Slash fic:

The main example I have of this is yaoi, but doesn't it still follow the same genders stereotypes though in that the feminine partner is submissive and vice versa?
Yes, but the genders aren't tied to the sexes. A woman can read it without being offended that all of the women are excessively 'feminine.'


Could be. Is it really impossible to write a story without some kind of conflict or obstacles to overcome?
...yes, it is. If you want the story to be any good at all.


Lies! Niether of those spoilers contained any slash fic at all!
Challenge accepted. Now all I need is someone to ship with...


I laughed!
:3

Slash Fic
Ooh Misses Kender: A fanfiction by Lix Lorn and kate beaton
"Lixie I am home now!" called Kender. "And I am looking SO beautiful and also my blouse is unbuttoned?" as the dress rippled.
"OOh Misses Kender ooh!" Lixie swooned. Kender caught her. "...let's do it."
"Yes." said Kender. "And I will leave my crown on." she added as they shared a smouldering gaze.

MEANWHILE IN A FIFTY MILE RADIUS OF THIS EVENT
Clothes falling off!
"Kender wizard!"
Women becoming lesbians!
"Kender wizard!"

IT WAS AMAZING the end. (http://www.harkavagrant.com/index.php?id=120)

I regret NOTHING.

[noparlpf]

It is if you want your story to have a plot?

The stories I read mostly revolve around the conflicts of the Princes of Asgard, rather than pursuer/pursued. :smallbiggrin:

I meant "romantic conflicts and obstacles". Oops.


Challenge accepted. Now all I need is someone to ship with...


:3

Slash Fic
Ooh Misses Kender: A fanfiction by Lix Lorn and kate beaton
"Lixie I am home now!" called Kender. "And I am looking SO beautiful and also my blouse is unbuttoned?" as the dress rippled.
"OOh Misses Kender ooh!" Lixie swooned. Kender caught her. "...let's do it."
"Yes." said Kender. "And I will leave my crown on." she added as they shared a smouldering gaze.

MEANWHILE IN A FIFTY MILE RADIUS OF THIS EVENT
Clothes falling off!
"Kender wizard!"
Women becoming lesbians!
"Kender wizard!"

IT WAS AMAZING the end. (http://www.harkavagrant.com/index.php?id=120)

I regret NOTHING.

XDD
I am laughing so hard. Oh my gosh.

[Selpharia]

So I've got news!

Yesterday I was meeting with my therapist, and she told me about a Trans support group that was meeting a couple hours after our time was up. So I decided to head on over and check it out.

Apparently, a lot of the regular people weren't there, so with me there were only six people total, and I had to leave an hour early because of stupid early work times, but it was still nice. And actually, it was the first time I'd met another trans person in real life before (as far as I know).

So, yeah, that was fun. Although apparently me making the decision that this was something I wanted to do and was worth being tired in the morning is an example of me being completely irresponsible and putting my job at risk. At least according to my mother :smallsigh: . Along that line of thought, after discussing the matter with my therapist, it is her professional opinion that my parents are controlling to an unhealthy extreme. Which I've pretty much always known, but it's nice to have a professional who agrees. The only problem is, one of my parent's big issues is that I "self-diagnosed, and then found a therapist who agrees with me so I could rush down this path." So having her agree might not actually be as powerful a tool in their eyes as one might hope...:smallsigh:

Also, while I'm glad that GID is no longer a disorder (I personally have no problem with gender dysphoria, as it is rather distressing, and if there's an official disagnosis, there's an official treatment: transition!), but the new stuff is...icky and saddening :smallfrown: . I say it all too much: what's wrong with people? Why can't they just leave others alone?


~Phoenix~

Oh, Phee, that's miserable. I hear that argument in my head all the time, and I can't imagine how awful it must be to have your agency questioned all the time like that. I guess that's one of the hidden benefits of being a grad student, even though I have less money, my parents can't control things as much. Honestly, it might be worthwhile to ask them what their threshold of proof is, if only to directly understand if they can ever be satisfied or if you're just going to have to wait for them to get used to it

Also, wow I missed quite a few debates while my net was dark.

*hugs*

Oh, and that was great literature Lixie, I enjoyed it immensely

~Laura

[KenderWizard]

Slash Fic
Ooh Misses Kender: A fanfiction by Lix Lorn and kate beaton
"Lixie I am home now!" called Kender. "And I am looking SO beautiful and also my blouse is unbuttoned?" as the dress rippled.
"OOh Misses Kender ooh!" Lixie swooned. Kender caught her. "...let's do it."
"Yes." said Kender. "And I will leave my crown on." she added as they shared a smouldering gaze.

MEANWHILE IN A FIFTY MILE RADIUS OF THIS EVENT
Clothes falling off!
"Kender wizard!"
Women becoming lesbians!
"Kender wizard!"

IT WAS AMAZING the end. (http://www.harkavagrant.com/index.php?id=120)

I regret NOTHING.

:smallredface: Laughing and blushing but mostly laughing! :smallbiggrin:

[Lix Lorn]

If you like the blushing I could write a proper one. (OUTRAGEOUS WINK)

[Irish Musician]

I really needed that laugh today Lixie. Not really anything thread related going on, just had a super crappy day because I had to put my guinea pig down today, so things suck right now.

@golentan - So very sorry that happened to you, life can duck sometimes. *Hugs*

Also hugs for whoever else needs them.

[KenderWizard]

If you like the blushing I could write a proper one. (OUTRAGEOUS WINK)

:smallredface: .... :smallredface: .... :smallredface: .... :smallbiggrin:


I really needed that laugh today Lixie. Not really anything thread related going on, just had a super crappy day because I had to put my guinea pig down today, so things suck right now.


:smallfrown: My sympathies.

Also ((hugs)) for Phoe.

[Lix Lorn]

I really needed that laugh today Lixie. Not really anything thread related going on, just had a super crappy day because I had to put my guinea pig down today, so things suck right now.
(huggles tight)


@golentan - So very sorry that happened to you, life can duck sometimes. *Hugs*

Also hugs for whoever else needs them.
Ducks are truly a terror. (snuggles both)


:smallredface: .... :smallredface: .... :smallredface: .... :smallbiggrin:
I would, you know. I wrote smut between me and my best friend once. It was her birthday present.
She loved it.
It was a terrible idea. DXD

[Kindablue]

Ducks are truly a terror. (snuggles both)

Ducks! Ducks! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFK2Xq2RyiU)

[golentan]

Lix, please write smut about me. I will put it on my kindle and share it with friends and read it when I feel lonely.

[Heliomance]

Lix, please write smut about me. I will put it on my kindle and share it with friends and read it when I feel lonely.

But we have no idea how your species reproduces, or what you find arousing!

[Lix Lorn]

Lix, please write smut about me. I will put it on my kindle and share it with friends and read it when I feel lonely.
Uhhh. Okay... you and who?

[noparlpf]

I really needed that laugh today Lixie. Not really anything thread related going on, just had a super crappy day because I had to put my guinea pig down today, so things suck right now.

:< I'm sorry to hear that.

[golentan]

Uhhh. Okay... you and who?

Yes.


I 'unno. My girlfriend, you, kneenibble, serpentine, she who lives in her name, or anyone else you think might be good inspiration


But we have no idea how your species reproduces, or what you find arousing!

Well, given that I was a member of a non-reproductive caste (still had sex, it was just team building and recreational), and I find humans reasonably attractive, I'd say it's fairly moot.

[Heliomance]

she who lives in her name

O_o

You want to be shipped with a Primordial? You are a braver man than I.
Despite neither of us being men.

[golentan]

O_o

You want to be shipped with a Primordial? You are a braver man than I.
Despite neither of us being men.

What? She's shy, cute, bookish, and perfectly capable of obliterating me if I cross her. What's not to like? I'm actually serious about that, that's much of my type.

[Lix Lorn]

Yes.

I 'unno. My girlfriend, you, kneenibble, serpentine, she who lives in her name, or anyone else you think might be good inspiration
Well, I could do whichever, probably. It's a coupla years since I wrote anything smutty.
Are you SERIOUS about this? I wanna check is all.


O_o

You want to be shipped with a Primordial? You are a braver man than I.
Despite neither of us being men.
I'm a primordial sometimes!

[golentan]

Yes, I am serious. I leave myself in your capable, lovely hands. Tentacles? Whatever appendages a primordial of love uses when creating smut.

[Lix Lorn]

Yes, I am serious. I leave myself in your capable, lovely hands. Tentacles? Whatever appendages a primordial of love uses when creating smut.
Hands are better at typing...

[monkyman640]

Hmm, I realized that I don't really know what demisexual refers to. And come to think of it, only a vague idea about asexual. Could someone help me out?

Demisexual refers to a person who feels sexual attraction towards someone only after a significant emotional connection has been made. Asexual refers to a person who feels sexual attraction rarely or never.

[SiuiS]

Blue can do more than that. :c

But you're only kinda blue! The rest of you could be a panoply of colors as descriptors, who knows what your capacities and limits are!


So I've got news!

Yesterday I was meeting with my therapist, and she told me about a Trans support group that was meeting a couple hours after our time was up. *So I decided to head on over and check it out. *

Apparently, a lot of the regular people weren't there, so with me there were only six people total, and I had to leave an hour early because of stupid early work times, but it was still nice. *And actually, it was the first time I'd met another trans person in real life before (as far as I know).

So, yeah, that was fun. *Although apparently me making the decision that this was something I wanted to do and was worth being tired in the morning is an example of me being completely irresponsible and putting my job at risk. *At least according to my mother :smallsigh: . *Along that line of thought, after discussing the matter with my therapist, it is her professional opinion that my parents are controlling to an unhealthy extreme. *Which I've pretty much always known, but it's nice to have a professional who agrees. *The only problem is, one of my parent's big issues is that I "self-diagnosed, and then found a therapist who agrees with me so I could rush down this path." *So having her agree might not actually be as powerful a tool in their eyes as one might hope...:smallsigh:

Aye. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them admit you led them, or the water is there, or even that they're thirsty. Not when they know best.

The trick here is to explain that it's a transaction system base on Holistic principles; that a dollar alone isn't important because it's value becomes relative. If you could pay someone $400 dollars to fix something, or instead you could spend $100 and two hours of your time, then you would save money by doing the work yourself if the quality of service is similar because an hour of your time is like, $20, which makes that $300 extra worth fifteen hours instead of two.

Similarly, being tired but satisfied will increase your work output; moral is so huge in a business environment for just this reason. Studies for years show that it costs a business less overall for a worker to say home than to come in sick, because yet can then source that work elsewhere instead of pay a substandard employee (because sickness affects efficacy) to do it.

This is also why exercise, which mathematically depletes you, is good for you. It fulfills you in ways high cannot be measured expressly in calorie work units. Similarly, reinforcing your morale will pay long term and mid term dividends that would be lost without, such that you're actually beginning a process that will improve your quality o life (of which money is a tool to acquire) significantly for the next decade at least.

Would they rather you made ten more bucks – an hour's worth of work – or achieved several hours' worth of benefit in a shorter time? The old maxim applies, work smarter, not harder.


On the internet, erotica, gender, etc, spoilered for the erotica part, just in case:



Oh I certainly did not have safe search on! I dunno, at least most of what's on the internet is true. It probably also helped that I got a lot of it from written erotica, which used words and described what was going on, rather than visual porn, which is still baffling to me.

Apparently there's a gender divide on that, but I don't know why and I don't know where the various alphabet soup letters fall, but that men are more likely to go for visual erotica and women go for written erotica. I suspect it's mostly cultural (what you're used to, based on what other people were doing at the time you began, and then that self-perpetuates).*

Also, apparently, there's a theory women are into m/m slash-fic because it removes problematic gender roles from the scenario. I know it certainly helps me, it's nice not to think about problematic gendering when I'm reading Loki/Thor fanfic. :smallbiggrin:.

It's supposedly a mechanical divide. Isn't it also one of those things, where lesbians show more masculine mental traits and andrians show more feminine metal traits?

As an aside, apparently one of the divides is mechanical attention as it relates to math and spatial mapping. Women, when asked to draw a bicycle, draw it without a working chain system more often than not. Although that sounds entirely societal to me and not indicative of anything.


Not really. *I've done the calculations several times (and my mom has too), and with my current salary, moving into the cheapest place I can find that's on my way to work, I'll have a grand total of ~$120 a month that doesn't go towards housing and utilities, car and device payments, and food. *Considering my therapist currently costs $240 a month...

And that's also assuming that I keep my current job. *I'm a contractor right now, and the contract ends in February. *If the company doesn't decide to or can't keep me on, then I'm unemployed again (but with more experience and another good reference on my side), meaning I really can't afford it.

And that's without considering any level of transition, such as new clothes, hair removal, hormones, saving for SRS...and I still need to buy a new car; my current one, though I love her, is getting old and has horrible gas milage, which eats into my funds even more.

While I dislike that my parents first thoughts are about money, and my mental health seems to have fallen to #2 or less, I can't deny that it is a big concern...


~Phoenix~

How far do you need to travel?
How much do you need to haul?
What's the weather like in your neck of the woods?

Do what I'm trying to do. Modified mechanically assisted bicycle.

Electric cycle at the top end costs $1,500 and holds a charge sufficient for twelve miles travel at 45-49 mph. A gas powered unit instead usually hits 25-30 mph and a sufficient tank to get you about the same distance of ten to twelve miles. Neither of these methods interfere with the actual pedal function, and the electric especially can be used for supplementation, getting over hills, getting started from a stop in traffic, etc. and depending on local laws would be street safe and not require licensing.

It's an advanced anecdote. When I used to walk, and I had friends who walked, and complained, I told them to get a razor scooter. It's not any easier, you're just as tired at the end of the trip, but it's faster because wheels. Small mechanical assists change the equation drastically.


Like, I feel like I almost always see one partner doing the majority of the pursuing, or the wooing, &c. Not so much both being equally proactive there.

So? That's not really inequality unless one is making a power play and forcing the other to do all the work. Point of fact, wouldn't that actually be synergizing?


Could be. Is it really impossible to write a story without some kind of conflict or obstacles to overcome?

No, but it's boring as sin. At best, it would be very meta, well written and driving the reader to wonder when the other shoe will drop... Which never happens.


:smallredface: Laughing and blushing but mostly laughing! :smallbiggrin:

It's times like this I'm glad to be an art pony.

But it's also times like this I'm glad I can read, as that's going a bit beyond the forum rules despite its tongue in geek nature. Alas!


But we have no idea how your species reproduces, or what you find arousing!

Yes! We need a list! Possibly with diagrams!

Or at least an anatomy chart. Actually, that would be cool anyway.

[Astrella]

*hugs for golly*


Challenge accepted. Now all I need is someone to ship with...


:3

Slash Fic
Ooh Misses Kender: A fanfiction by Lix Lorn and kate beaton
"Lixie I am home now!" called Kender. "And I am looking SO beautiful and also my blouse is unbuttoned?" as the dress rippled.
"OOh Misses Kender ooh!" Lixie swooned. Kender caught her. "...let's do it."
"Yes." said Kender. "And I will leave my crown on." she added as they shared a smouldering gaze.

MEANWHILE IN A FIFTY MILE RADIUS OF THIS EVENT
Clothes falling off!
"Kender wizard!"
Women becoming lesbians!
"Kender wizard!"

IT WAS AMAZING the end. (http://www.harkavagrant.com/index.php?id=120)

I regret NOTHING.

Haha, I love those. :smallbiggrin:


Oh, Phee, that's miserable. I hear that argument in my head all the time, and I can't imagine how awful it must be to have your agency questioned all the time like that. I guess that's one of the hidden benefits of being a grad student, even though I have less money, my parents can't control things as much. Honestly, it might be worthwhile to ask them what their threshold of proof is, if only to directly understand if they can ever be satisfied or if you're just going to have to wait for them to get used to it

Also, wow I missed quite a few debates while my net was dark.

*hugs*

Oh, and that was great literature Lixie, I enjoyed it immensely

~Laura

I was wondering where you were~ Hi again!

I think it also depends on the sort of parents you have. Mine don't hesitate about looking through my bank info and such to try and figure out where I am during the week. :/


I really needed that laugh today Lixie. Not really anything thread related going on, just had a super crappy day because I had to put my guinea pig down today, so things suck right now.

@golentan - So very sorry that happened to you, life can duck sometimes. *Hugs*

Also hugs for whoever else needs them.

Aw, that really sucks. :c

*all the sympathies*

[Socratov]

Well, I could do whichever, probably. It's a coupla years since I wrote anything smutty.
Are you SERIOUS about this? I wanna check is all.


I'm a primordial sometimes!

well, to be honest, I think I can say that women are primordials. with respect to destruction: you don't want the crossin' o' the arms happening, neither the pursin' o' the lips or the tappin' o' the feet. (this is a serious thought brought with a joke since it translates so well). also, Primordials are all about giving life, which only a woman can do. I see a connection here. :smallsmile:

[Kindablue]

But you're only kinda blue! The rest of you could be a panoply of colors as descriptors, who knows what your capacities and limits are!
Search me, O SiuiS, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts.

As an aside, apparently one of the divides is mechanical attention as it relates to math and spatial mapping. Women, when asked to draw a bicycle, draw it without a working chain system more often than not. Although that sounds entirely societal to me and not indicative of anything.
This isn't really related, but there's a funny scene in A Scanner Darkly where one of the spacier of the cadets aboard the starship Hallucinogenics buys a ten speed racing bike, and none of his friends can understand why it only has seven gears, five in back and two in front, instead of ten.

"Those colored guys must have been working on it, taking it apart with improper tools and no technical knowledge, and when they reassembled it they left three gears lying on the floor of their garage. They're probably still lying there."

[bluewind95]

golentan, I dunno if you want hugs, but if you do, then *hugs*. If not, my sympathies.

*hugs to all else who need hugs*

[Lady Tialait]

Well, my worrying half-asleep mind was put at ease. Thanks guys. I tend to forget the effect of media and such. As for the schooling, me and a few of my friends have decided to home school our kids together. Basically, to get the best of both worlds. The safety and attention home schooling gives, and the social effects of having a more public setting.


However, instead of being worried today, I'm angry about something I heard about. You see, this goes back to like...five years ago when I was living in another town. In that town, I had some friends and they went to a bar with me to play pool and hang out. Two of them were straight and the other one was gay. (Most of my friends are male, just a quirk of mine...I don't tend to get along with women...) Annyway, according to my straight friends the other guy started inviting his gay friends to the bar, and after a change of management they stared drumming out straight people because they wanted it to be a gay only hang out. Men only, Gay only. Drives me nuts, that is like...double discrimination. Obviously they could go to a different bar to hang out, and this place isn't the norm, but we have memories there. Now, I wouldn't even be allowed to hang out. I don't live around there anymore, but it just peeves me.

I've never seen such a thing happen before, the other way around where they won't allow gay people in. I would think an oppressed group wouldn't do that.

[KenderWizard]

@Lady Tialait: That's strange. :smallfrown: It's difficult to strike the balance between giving less-privileged groups safe spaces and defined spaces, so they aren't always crowded out by more-privileged groups (For example, women's support groups for domestic violence are often women-only spaces because it allows the women there to feel safer. There are pros and cons to this approach.) but to also not be excessively exclusionary, especially in social settings.




I would, you know. I wrote smut between me and my best friend once. It was her birthday present.
She loved it.
It was a terrible idea. DXD

Ha! That's brilliant! I'm just kind of weirdly flattered! :smallredface: No one's ever offered to write smut about me before. Although someone did write smut including a character based on me, which was pretty close, so maybe that counts ... but still, it's atypical!


Hands are better at typing...

I laughed at this!

[SiuiS]

I've never seen such a thing happen before, the other way around where they won't allow gay people in. I would think an oppressed group wouldn't do that.

some people are bitter. They'd rather wear the boot than have it on their back, keeping them down. Not everyone has the presence of mind to eliminate the boo entirely. Some of them don't think it's even a plausible goal. So they go for the next bed thing. Of not equality, then at least their personal comfort.

[Skeppio]

some people are bitter. They'd rather wear the boot than have it on their back, keeping them down. Not everyone has the presence of mind to eliminate the boo entirely. Some of them don't think it's even a plausible goal. So they go for the next bed thing. Of not equality, then at least their personal comfort.

I've seen/heard of it before. It's an unbelievably annoying "queerer-than-thou" attitude that disgusts me. :smallsigh:

[The Succubus]

Well, my worrying half-asleep mind was put at ease. Thanks guys. I tend to forget the effect of media and such. As for the schooling, me and a few of my friends have decided to home school our kids together. Basically, to get the best of both worlds. The safety and attention home schooling gives, and the social effects of having a more public setting.


However, instead of being worried today, I'm angry about something I heard about. You see, this goes back to like...five years ago when I was living in another town. In that town, I had some friends and they went to a bar with me to play pool and hang out. Two of them were straight and the other one was gay. (Most of my friends are male, just a quirk of mine...I don't tend to get along with women...) Annyway, according to my straight friends the other guy started inviting his gay friends to the bar, and after a change of management they stared drumming out straight people because they wanted it to be a gay only hang out. Men only, Gay only. Drives me nuts, that is like...double discrimination. Obviously they could go to a different bar to hang out, and this place isn't the norm, but we have memories there. Now, I wouldn't even be allowed to hang out. I don't live around there anymore, but it just peeves me.

I've never seen such a thing happen before, the other way around where they won't allow gay people in. I would think an oppressed group wouldn't do that.

"You must be at least this gay to enter?" :smallconfused:

I would find the verification processes they use to test visitors fascinating, especially if considered in a court of law.

[Lady Tialait]

I personally hate all women places, especially because all men's clubs are basically banned. I'm for equality, and if it gets flipped between the two powers I get irate. There is a difference between catering to one group and excluding everyone but that group.

If you want a place that appeals to women only, then put things that appeal to the majority to women. If you want a bar for gay men, push it to appeal to the majority of gay men. The only way we will get real equality is to avoid over reaction. I once went to a gym that was only for women, but because I can't seem to get along with anyone who is feminine I had to switch over to my husband's gym or end up in a cat fight with a few of the annoying people there.

I can see the purpose of a gay bar, it acts as a comfortable place for gathering and being yourself. I just wish they hadn't hijacked some of my memories for that place to exist. I also wish they wouldn't hedge out people...I'm waay to much an idealist I guess.


Edit: As for how they figure out if you are gay or not to come in, they ask at the door, and tell it's best you leave if you don't say you are gay. They do let women in. That information I got from my friend on the phone just a few minuets ago. So, I guess I could go in if I wanted to...and wanted to travel across the country.

[Astrella]

Hmm, I think there is a specific need for queer spaces, though it's very much preferred that a queer space doesn't shut out any people, just that people are aware of it being a safe spot for queer people and take that in account. (And it depends. A bar is different from a support group for example.) Not to mention that trying to police those boundaries opens up a lot of abuse with a "not queer enough to enter attitude". (femme lesbians, bi people, straight trans* people, etc... ) So I'd prefer if policies focus on removing people who are abusive / problematic without just outright policing on sexuality.

Here's an article about the topic. (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/katie-miller/bachelorette-parties_b_2195146.html?utm_hp_ref=gay-voices&ncid=edlinkusaolp00000009)

Also adding that things like specific women's places exist because there's a inequality, they're not a reversal of the imbalance. Groups do need specific places to talk about issues and such, like, my trans youth forum is a private forum for example for safety reasons. Not that I'm opposed to stuff like men's support groups or anything like that though, any group should be allowed to have a place to talk about issues that pertain to them.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Two anecdotes to perhaps soften the blow of an old hangout being "ruined":


I can see the purpose of a gay bar, it acts as a comfortable place for gathering and being yourself. I just wish they hadn't hijacked some of my memories for that place to exist. I also wish they wouldn't hedge out people...I'm waay to much an idealist I guess.

You can't really blame them for hijacking that place in particular; bars and other establishments change management and theme all the time, and you shouldn't take it personally. There was a restaurant near my old middle school that my family used to go to all the time when we stayed after school for extracurriculars, and we were on a first-name basis with the management and wait staff and really loved the place. It had been there for at least a decade or so, but a year after I graduated it lost its lease and was bought out by another restaurant. My family and some other regulars hated losing a restaurant we loved, but there was nothing we could do about it.

We sort of had our revenge, though, since the new restaurant closed a few months later and in the intervening six years the property has gone through eight different restaurants. Must be cursed. That'll teach 'em to ruin my favorite restaurant. :smallwink:


Edit: As for how they figure out if you are gay or not to come in, they ask at the door, and tell it's best you leave if you don't say you are gay. They do let women in. That information I got from my friend on the phone just a few minuets ago. So, I guess I could go in if I wanted to...and wanted to travel across the country.

As I think I mentioned in an earlier iteration of this thread, the first time I went to a gay bar (or any bar, period) I went with four friends of mine. Our group consisted of myself (gay), my roommate (bi), a friend of mine and his girlfriend (both bi), and a mutual friend of all of us (straight) who was basically coming on a dare (looong story). The man at the door was friendly and asked us how we'd heard of the bar, since it was kind of off the beaten path and we weren't regulars; my roommate jokingly said "Oh, our straight friend is in town and we're hoping to scar him for life, that's all."

The man said not to worry, it's not scary, come on in, it'll be fine...and he was looking at me the whole time, since I looked like your average computer nerd feeling out of his element in a collared shirt and jeans rather than a T-shirt and cargo shorts, and my straight friend was an Italian with immaculately-combed and slicked-back hair, a designer shirt of some sort, and skinny jeans. The moral of the story here is that, while they might say you should probably stay out if you're not gay and you might feel that the bar becoming a gay venue has changed things too much, you shouldn't feel unwelcome (despite the bouncers' opinions) and you can probably still have a good time there without feeling like they've ruined your old hangout.


I am a bit surprised that they let women into the gay bar if they're trying to keep it gay-only. The articles I've read about women in gay- or lesbian-only bars (like this one (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/katie-miller/bachelorette-parties_b_2195146.html), for instance) have mentioned that women having their "girls' night out" at a gay bar makes the patrons feel like they're on display, and gay guys would probably rather be ogling other men than talking with women in their own sanctuary--not to mention the "fruit fly"/stereotype effect; the first question asked of me by every girl I've come out to, without exception, has been a variation on "So...want to go shopping sometime?" :smallsigh: So if they're inviting women in, it's probably not as insular or stuffy as the bouncers make it out to be.

[Mono Vertigo]

@Lady Tialait: anybody can discriminate. Oppressors, oppressed, people who are somehow outside of any oppressive dynamics. Anybody. Surprisingly, oppression isn't guaranteed to give anyone empathy or tact.
As for making it a safe place?

They do let women in.
I doubt it.
See PairO'Dice Lost's comment. Women are just as homophobic or ignorant as guys. The only thing their presence guarantees is that gay visitors won't start hitting on them vainly expecting them to reciprocate their feelings, or vice versa.
Actually, it's not even a guarantee. From what I understand, bisexuals are accepted too in this bar.
Conclusion is that I don't approve a policy that limits the presence of straight guys in a gay bar but not women. But that's just my opinion.

[Lycunadari]

I really needed that laugh today Lixie. Not really anything thread related going on, just had a super crappy day because I had to put my guinea pig down today, so things suck right now.

:smallfrown: *hugs*



:3

Slash Fic
Ooh Misses Kender: A fanfiction by Lix Lorn and kate beaton
"Lixie I am home now!" called Kender. "And I am looking SO beautiful and also my blouse is unbuttoned?" as the dress rippled.
"OOh Misses Kender ooh!" Lixie swooned. Kender caught her. "...let's do it."
"Yes." said Kender. "And I will leave my crown on." she added as they shared a smouldering gaze.

MEANWHILE IN A FIFTY MILE RADIUS OF THIS EVENT
Clothes falling off!
"Kender wizard!"
Women becoming lesbians!
"Kender wizard!"

IT WAS AMAZING the end. (http://www.harkavagrant.com/index.php?id=120)

I regret NOTHING.

:smallbiggrin:

Something completely unrelated: I was feeling really down the last few days due to various stuff, and I was ill (still am, but nothing serious) but today I'm feeling much better, because it snowed and snow makes me incredibly happy, and my brother is coming home today and will stay for three weeks after he was away for more than 2 1/2 years! :smallsmile:

As always, *hugs and cookies* for everyone who wants them. :smallsmile:

[Lentrax]

Oh jeez. I missed a lot of coversation again. Silly sleep, making me miss out on conversations.

Lucy: So happy your brother is coming home!:smallbiggrin: I hope you have fun! I know I wouldn't, but my brother and I never really got along, so yeah. Have fun! *hug*

On hangouts: I really don't have any so I really can't add to this converation. I do wish I had somewhere to go, but I am really not an IRL social person... :smallfrown:

*Hugs for everyone*
*Glomps on Lixie*

[KenderWizard]

I think less-privileged-only groups (eg, women only, LGBT+ only, deaf people only) are not ideal but acceptable in this imperfect world. The ideal would be something like, for a domestic violence support group, "people who respect the seriousness of the nature of domestic violence and commit to contributing to making this a safe space for victims to speak and feel listened-to and unthreatened only". Since that's super-hard to police, especially if you're a harried social worker trying to do their best on limited resources and limitless problems, and most of the people you speak to are women who have been abused by men and fear at least one man in their lives, you go with "women only" and hope for the best. And I think that's fair. Not perfect, but better than upsetting the people you're helping by putting notional equality above their feeling of safety. It's more dubious when it comes to something like a pub, I think it's best there to be a women-aimed pub or a gay-aimed pub or whatever but have a "troublemakers will be asked to leave" policy rather than a door policy.




Something completely unrelated: I was feeling really down the last few days due to various stuff, and I was ill (still am, but nothing serious) but today I'm feeling much better, because it snowed and snow makes me incredibly happy, and my brother is coming home today and will stay for three weeks after he was away for more than 2 1/2 years! :smallsmile:


That's awesome! :smallbiggrin: I would like it to snow here! We've had snow three times in the last two years. But also, we've had snow four times in my lifetime. So these last two winters have been crazy anomalies and the country kind of panicked. We don't have snow ploughs or snow chains for cars, or sufficient salt and grit for the roads (we have enough for a winter of frosts, not snow), people don't own snow boots, houses have shallow pipes which freeze so people lose water. Someone even died. (It's almost impossible to die of weather-related causes in Ireland, so that was a big deal. Occasionally someone dies in a flood, and one time a tree fell on someone in a storm.) So now no one wants snow anymore, except me. I frigging loved it, it was amazing and I spent loads of time outside and on the roof.

[KerfuffleMach2]

On the subject of gay bars, I'm perfectly okay with a place that caters to any group, so long as they don't exclude other groups. A straight guy should be allowed to hang out at a gay bar if he wants. So long as nobody causes any trouble. I mean, he might be hanging out with a long time friend that's gay. I'd hang out with my brother at a gay bar if he wanted to. But if the bar says no to non-gay people, they lose my business and my brother's business.

[Arachu]

I disagree with any excessive exclusion, but... I admit I can see the point in some cases. The bar seems like a bit much, though.


:3

Slash Fic
Ooh Misses Kender: A fanfiction by Lix Lorn and kate beaton
"Lixie I am home now!" called Kender. "And I am looking SO beautiful and also my blouse is unbuttoned?" as the dress rippled.
"OOh Misses Kender ooh!" Lixie swooned. Kender caught her. "...let's do it."
"Yes." said Kender. "And I will leave my crown on." she added as they shared a smouldering gaze.

MEANWHILE IN A FIFTY MILE RADIUS OF THIS EVENT
Clothes falling off!
"Kender wizard!"
Women becoming lesbians!
"Kender wizard!"

IT WAS AMAZING the end. (http://www.harkavagrant.com/index.php?id=120)

I regret NOTHING.

XD


I really needed that laugh today Lixie. Not really anything thread related going on, just had a super crappy day because I had to put my guinea pig down today, so things suck right now.

*So many hugs*


I think it also depends on the sort of parents you have. Mine don't hesitate about looking through my bank info and such to try and figure out where I am during the week. :/

*Hugs!*


:smallbiggrin:

Something completely unrelated: I was feeling really down the last few days due to various stuff, and I was ill (still am, but nothing serious) but today I'm feeling much better, because it snowed and snow makes me incredibly happy, and my brother is coming home today and will stay for three weeks after he was away for more than 2 1/2 years! :smallsmile:

As always, *hugs and cookies* for everyone who wants them. :smallsmile:

Yay~ ^_^


On hangouts: I really don't have any so I really can't add to this converation. I do wish I had somewhere to go, but I am really not an IRL social person... :smallfrown:

Same here... I can talk up a storm online, but I'm awkward and shy and reclusive and kind of rambly offline. >.>


~Bianca

[Mina Kobold]

*Hugs for Golly, Phee and everybody else who needs it*

Sorry I am not quoting, had a busy day and got a bit lost when looking for the stuff I wanted to reply to. ^_^'

@Cybermen: Have not reached them yet in the show (I am somewhere in the first appearance of the Daleks, currently), but that does indeed sound problematic. While I normally do not mind the concept of altering organic beings to be part of a collective/drones, the execution is terribly important. The Cybermen sound a bit as if they are treated as if they have been turned into tools and lost their autonomy, but still show it. Which just seems techno-phobic. Hope I am wrong, though. ^_^

@Phee: Ouch, your parents sound very authoritative. I know they mean well, but that is by far the worst way to treat your children, barring outright aggression. Your mental health is far more important than whether you have a lot of currency.
Have you tried asking if there are other therapists or psychiatrists who may back you up without too much pay? Or perhaps some authority they themselves recognise? ^_^'

If worst comes to worst, maybe a flatmate could alleviate the financial problem? Or is that a bad idea? Finances are so confusing. >_<

I have absolutely no experience with it myself, so do take my advice with extra salt and pepper, though. :smallsmile:



Something completely unrelated: I was feeling really down the last few days due to various stuff, and I was ill (still am, but nothing serious) but today I'm feeling much better, because it snowed and snow makes me incredibly happy, and my brother is coming home today and will stay for three weeks after he was away for more than 2 1/2 years! :smallsmile:

As always, *hugs and cookies* for everyone who wants them. :smallsmile:

Congratulations on snow and familial reunion! ^_^

*Returns hugs and cookies*



On hangouts: I really don't have any so I really can't add to this converation. I do wish I had somewhere to go, but I am really not an IRL social person... :smallfrown:

Bit of the same here, sorries. >_<

I do think that Kender is right and that we should at least have the less-privileged-only groups available for the time being. Eventually, we should be able to get to a point where we can make safe groups without excluding someone on something they have little control over, but we should not force people to confront what they are not ready for yet.
Bars are a bit on the wrong side for me, though. I see the point of making fun social spaces for those who are normally excluded, but it get a bit close to just creating a mirror of the "No Girls or non-cisheteronormative people" clubhouses. ._.

Perhaps a solution would be to allow for bars to be booked by support groups? That way, you create a safe experience for those who need it, but do not make it a default to turn away people who belong to a privileged group. :smallsmile:


That's awesome! :smallbiggrin: I would like it to snow here! We've had snow three times in the last two years. But also, we've had snow four times in my lifetime. So these last two winters have been crazy anomalies and the country kind of panicked. We don't have snow ploughs or snow chains for cars, or sufficient salt and grit for the roads (we have enough for a winter of frosts, not snow), people don't own snow boots, houses have shallow pipes which freeze so people lose water. Someone even died. (It's almost impossible to die of weather-related causes in Ireland, so that was a big deal. Occasionally someone dies in a flood, and one time a tree fell on someone in a storm.) So now no one wants snow anymore, except me. I frigging loved it, it was amazing and I spent loads of time outside and on the roof.

That sounds both fun and really frustrating. I hope you get snow this Winter as well. ^_^

We get it almost every Winter, which means we are fully prepared with both salt, ploughs and appropriate plumbing (but no Goombas, sadly. :smallfrown:). I know the feeling of oddly snowy winters, though, we have had snow on Yule Eve several times in my lifetime, despite it usually only happening once each decade! It is super-fun. :smallsmile:

[Serpentine]

Eywot? I'm doing what with/to whom now?
...
If I'm in it I wanna see :B

[Faulty]

I actually don't have too big a problem with gay only bars. Honestly, straight people have enough bars to go to. :smalltongue:

[pffh]

I actually don't have too big a problem with gay only bars. Honestly, straight people have enough bars to go to. :smalltongue:

But what if you want to go there with your straight friends?

I'm very opposed to anything only anything.

[noparlpf]

That's awesome! :smallbiggrin: I would like it to snow here! We've had snow three times in the last two years. But also, we've had snow four times in my lifetime. So these last two winters have been crazy anomalies and the country kind of panicked. We don't have snow ploughs or snow chains for cars, or sufficient salt and grit for the roads (we have enough for a winter of frosts, not snow), people don't own snow boots, houses have shallow pipes which freeze so people lose water. Someone even died. (It's almost impossible to die of weather-related causes in Ireland, so that was a big deal. Occasionally someone dies in a flood, and one time a tree fell on someone in a storm.) So now no one wants snow anymore, except me. I frigging loved it, it was amazing and I spent loads of time outside and on the roof.

We had hardly any snow last winter, but the year before it was just the right mix of wet and cold so we got huge icicles hanging off the dorms to the ground. (Until my roommate and I went around breaking them because dumb teenage boys will be dumb teenage boys. I dropped an icicle the size of me on my leg. Ah, youth.)


But what if you want to go there with your straight friends?

I'm very opposed to anything only anything.

What about my me-only bedroom?

[Irish Musician]

Hugs for everyone!

Also, thank you for the well wishes about my piggy. Buried her yesterday by a tree outside in the big outdoors, and by my hammock so I can say hi when I go and lay in it. I know this has nothing to do with LGBTA, but you guys always make me feel better about stuff. So thank you for that. :smallsmile:

*Glomphs Lixie*

[pffh]

What about my me-only bedroom?

Well time to change that. This thread will be staying in your room for the next 3-6 weeks.