Telflammar Ninjalord - valuable?

[Shin]

Hey there.

I came up with an idea for a sneaky character and wanted to hear your opinions about the value of this build. How'd you rate it?

First, a question. The build works with the Telflammar Shadowlord prc. It's tier 1 according to the prc tier list - is it really that good?

Second, the build:
Rogue4/Ninja Spy10/Telflammar Shadowlord6

I'd take rogue up to lvl4 (where I get uncanny dodge - yay). The build only works if I then can talk my dm into lowering the bluff rank requirement for ninja spy from 10 to 7 (not that gamebreaking). Then all of the ninja spy's skills would only require rank 7 and I could jump in at lvl 5. Ninja spy's 10th lvl ability "abdunant step" I guess would make telflammar shadowlord accessible for me then - without the shadow walker template. And(!) the shadowlord's shadow jump wouldn't be denied this way. Dodge is a feat both prc's require. DM altered the 3.5 system in a way that I can take up to 10 bonus feats (maximum is X/(1/2) character level). Plus, I could take human for another bonus feat. And judge me if I'm wrong, but ninja spy's bab and saves progression didn't get lowered to 3.5 rogue standard?

Third, your opinions on this build please. Would it make a good sneaky character? Any mistakes I didn't come up with? Do the prcs synergize well with each other?

[Flickerdart]

Teflammar Shadowlord is a +1 Tier PrC (not a Tier 1 PrC - prestige classes are rated based on how they modify the original class) because Shadow Pounce can be combined with move- and swift-action teleports for multiple full attacks per round. Simply using Abundant Step with it is not much better than using Horizon Walker or something else that gets standard-action teleportation, and certainly doesn't kick you up a tier.

[Shin]

It's +2, according to the tier list. Keeping that in mind: What is the original class?

[Flickerdart]

+2, whatever. The important part is that PrC tiers are not the same as base class tiers.

The original class is whatever you entered with, which in this case is Rogue. If you were entering with Wizard, it wouldn't be +2, because Wizard is better than Shadowlord, and Shadowlord doesn't progress Wizard abilities.

[Snowbluff]

+2, whatever. The important part is that PrC tiers are not the same as base class tiers.

The original class is whatever you entered with, which in this case is Rogue. If you were entering with Wizard, it wouldn't be +2, because Wizard is better than Shadowlord, and Shadowlord doesn't progress Wizard abilities.

Wizard is a better entry than pure rogue, though.

Teleportron, away! /spamcast Dimension Hop

[Dusk Eclipse]

A wizard might be a viable entry if you use the arcane advancing adaptation of the Jaunte prestige class ( and manage to convinve your DM to keep the average bab). You do have to give up 9th level spells and maybe even 8ths though .

[Flickerdart]

I'm not saying it isn't a viable entry, but losing ~6 caster levels is about as far as possible from what a "+2" PrC would do for you. In fact, it's a tell-tale sign of the -2 ones! Shadow pouncing is hardly a replacement for 11+ high level spell slots.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Why are you loosing 6 CL? IIRC TSL gives you shadow punce at level 4 and the addaptation of jaunter givess it full casting advancement. Or am I missing something?

[Flickerdart]

You said you have to give up 9th and 8th level spells, which is giving up your 15, 16, 17, 18, 19 and 20th levels of Wizard casting.

[Twilightwyrm]

You said you have to give up 9th and 8th level spells, which is giving up your 15, 16, 17, 18, 19 and 20th levels of Wizard casting.

You would only end up giving up 8th level spells if you took all 6 levels of the class, which is kind of unnecessary seeing as how you aren't using Assassin as an entry class. The trade off end up being between 8th level spells, and the ability to become essentially immune to, save old age, pretty much every form of death. Hell, if you don't choose to optimize that portion, you can get both (though one or the other won't come online until 20th)

[Dusk Eclipse]

You said you have to give up 9th and 8th level spells, which is giving up your 15, 16, 17, 18, 19 and 20th levels of Wizard casting.

Ah my bad, I mis calculated, you should still be able to keep 8ths as long as you don't loose more CL.

[Snowbluff]

Not that it matters. The build really only needs up to, like, 6th level slots for the Non-celerity version. It's more of a "How many times can I hit you with this Thunderlance?" thought experiment, anyway.:smalltongue:

I'll post it. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=261277)

[Shin]

So for an entry like rogueX/assassinX, the prc is viable as long as I focus on teleporting to get my sneak attacks placed? How do I get the entry requirements done than? Via shadow walker template?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Two level dip in Totemist for Blink Shirt for move-action DimDoor is also a rather cute trick to pair with Shadowpounce.

[Snowbluff]

Two level dip in Totemist for Blink Shirt for move-action DimDoor is also a rather cute trick to pair with Shadowpounce.

Keep in mind you cannot do another SP after you sue your Dimension Door Su.

The Shape Soulmeld Feat: Blink Shirt should qualify, yes?

The easier Prereq to get around is SA. I would dip 2 in Swordsage for Assassin's Stance (If, by RAW, your DM considers the 1st level Stance granted a first level only stance).


Taking Magical Training, Precocious Apprentice, Heighten Spell, Sanctum +Earth Spell, and then Take Dimensional Jaunt for can get you an at-will standard teleport. :smalltongue:

[gorfnab]

Two levels of Swordsage at the right levels can get you Assassin's Stance (for more sneak attack), and the Shadow Jaunt/Blink/Stride maneuvers (which will also trigger shadowpounce).

[Dusk Eclipse]

Keep in mind you cannot do another SP after you sue your Dimension Door Su.

The Shape Soulmeld Feat: Blink Shirt should qualify, yes?

The easier Prereq to get around is SA. I would dip 2 in Swordsage for Assassin's Stance (If, by RAW, your DM considers the 1st level Stance granted a first level only stance).


Taking Magical Training, Precocious Apprentice, Heighten Spell, Sanctum +Earth Spell, and then Take Dimensional Jaunt for can get you an at-will standard teleport. :smalltongue:

You could use a standard/swift action teleport before using yourr Blink shirt and avoid that pesky restriction.

Can you elaborate on the Magical training trick? I don't really understand how it works.

[Venusaur]

Travel devotion is a great feat for these charaters, especially if you have rebuke undead ( possibly from an evil paladin variant).

[Dusk Eclipse]

Travel devotion is a great feat for these charaters, especially if you have rebuke undead ( possibly from an evil paladin variant).

Not really, as Shadow Pounce triggers on a [teleport] effect and Travel devotion isn't one. It still allows for movement and a full attack though and it is much easier to get than shadow pounce; but on a Telflamar Shadowlord built it is redundant once SP comes online.

[Snowbluff]

You could use a standard/swift action teleport before using yourr Blink shirt and avoid that pesky restriction.

Can you elaborate on the Magical training trick? I don't really understand how it works.

Yeah. GLHF in finding a Non-DDoor Swift Action Teleport. You have a high level Maneuver from a class with a lousy recovery mechanic or spells, as far I can tell.

The joke is that you get the ability to cast 4th level spells to get Dimensional Jaunt, which is a teleport reserve feat. It's so feat intensive, it is practically useless, and might not even work (no descriptor, IIRC).

[Answerer]

I would dip 2 in Swordsage for Assassin's Stance (If, by RAW, your DM considers the 1st level Stance granted a first level only stance).
Two levels of Swordsage at the right levels can get you Assassin's Stance (for more sneak attack), and the Shadow Jaunt/Blink/Stride maneuvers (which will also trigger shadowpounce).
Not actually RAW; the statement in Tome of Battle is that "your character starts with" -- you could interpret that to mean your first level in the class, but it is by no means unambiguously what is meant. What is far more likely is that if you take your first HD -- of any kind -- as your first level in the class, you get a 1st-level stance. Or, if you want to be truly pedantic, anyone with at least one level in Crusader, Swordsage, or Warblade starts the game with exactly one 1st-level stance, even if he starts at level 20, even if he's taken Martial Stance. After all, that's how he's starting play. It specifically says that you gain more as you level: if you haven't leveled, but just are 20th level...

This is a really stupid argument that I'm putting forth. But it's honestly closer to the text than the "your first class level can only give you 1st-level stances" interpretation. That interpretation ignores the specific words used, ignores the reality that WotC generally wrote base classes assuming you were single-classed and starting at level 1, and ignores the precedent set by every other maneuver in the entire system.


Sorry, but that's a pet peeve of mine.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Yeah. GLHF in finding a Non-DDoor Swift Action Teleport. You have a high level Maneuver from a class with a lousy recovery mechanic or spells, as far I can tell.

The joke is that you get the ability to cast 4th level spells to get Dimensional Jaunt, which is a teleport reserve feat. It's so feat intensive, it is practically useless, and might not even work (no descriptor, IIRC).

Abrupt Jaunt and that cape from Drow of the underdark, quickened bening transposition (via rod or circlet of rapid casting to economize spell slots) dimension hop.

[Snowbluff]

Abrupt Jaunt and that cape from Drow of the underdark, quickened bening transposition (via rod or circlet of rapid casting to economize spell slots) dimension hop.

All spellcaster options, except the cape.. :smalltongue:

[Dusk Eclipse]

Partially true, since dimension hop is accesible to any character with cha 11 vie hidden talent (be a psionic race, buy some manifester arrows and or visit the psionic node, detailed on CPsi, to get more PP to fuel it).

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Keep in mind you cannot do another SP after you sue your Dimension Door Su.

The Shape Soulmeld Feat: Blink Shirt should qualify, yes? As a standard action rather than move action. Also do note that it is at-will rather than 1/encounter (unless you wish to blow yet another feat and take a full round action to refresh) like the maneuver is.


The easier Prereq to get around is SA. I would dip 2 in Swordsage for Assassin's Stance (If, by RAW, your DM considers the 1st level Stance granted a first level only stance).A two-level dip is good anyways. Island of Blades makes an excellent secondary stance to ensure that you can generally apply your sneak attack. However don't forget that maneuvers are 1/encounter.


Taking Magical Training, Precocious Apprentice, Heighten Spell, Sanctum +Earth Spell, and then Take Dimensional Jaunt for can get you an at-will standard teleport. :smalltongue:

Unfortunately, six feats, plus at least SOME levels in a spellcasting class is a rather steep investment. Not to mention several dubious rules interpretations in there.

If you were going down that route, you might as well go Conjurer with Abrupt Jaunt to get your immediate-action teleports going as well. Or just go Warlock6 for Flee The Scene.

[docnessuno]

Why stopping at a 2 level swordsage dip?
Access to 7th level manouvers means you can dish 3 full round attacks each round and an additional one as an immediate action.
This requires "just" 7 levels of swordsage (but i would get the 8th too to be honest).

[Snowbluff]

As a standard action rather than move action. Also do note that it is at-will rather than 1/encounter (unless you wish to blow yet another feat and take a full round action to refresh) like the maneuver is.

A two-level dip is good anyways. Island of Blades makes an excellent secondary stance to ensure that you can generally apply your sneak attack. However don't forget that maneuvers are 1/encounter.

You don't qualify for TFSL if you don't have the 2d6 SA.



Unfortunately, six feats, plus at least SOME levels in a spellcasting class is a rather steep investment. Not to mention several dubious rules interpretations in there.

If you were going down that route, you might as well go Conjurer with Abrupt Jaunt to get your immediate-action teleports going as well. Or just go Warlock6 for Flee The Scene.

XD I think I already pointed out I was joking.


Why stopping at a 2 level swordsage dip?
Access to 7th level manouvers means you can dish 3 full round attacks each round and an additional one as an immediate action.
This requires "just" 7 levels of swordsage (but i would get the 8th too to be honest).

I think Schneeky already answered that. Sword Maneuvers are effectively 1/encounter.

I'll expand on why I prefer casters. Casting Dimension Hop (Or Stand, depending on your DM) with Metamagic (Twin, Repeat, Quicken) will net many more full attacks/round.