Do Undead have to be Gaunt?

[Hiro]

I was just asked this in a online game I'm doing where I inroduced a female lich that looks EXACTLY as she did in life. (fair complexion etc(

It never says anywhere in any book that intelligent undead have to look gaunt and all that. (Revanents don't. Vampires don't. why can't Liches?)

Weird I know but as a co-DM (the main one doesn't care) am I justified in doing this withouta permanent "gentle repose?"

[Ravens_cry]

Part of the ritual maybe. If she is vain enough, she could use a ring of gentle repose maybe plus a good disguise check, or even some form of illusion overlaid over her actual appearance. You are the DM, work something that seems plausible and go with that.

[Urpriest]

Liches are generally described as skeletal/rotted/etc. I'd let you do it, but with some source of Gentle Repose.

[Yuki Akuma]

They look gaunt because they're decomposing - decomposing corpses look like that.

If she has a way to avoid rotting, hey, why not let her look like she did in life?

[Gavinfoxx]

I would use another template... Why do they have to be a Lich? What specific Lich ability do you wish to have? Do you just want them to be badass?

[Ravens_cry]

They look gaunt because they're decomposing - decomposing corpses look like that.

If she has a way to avoid rotting, hey, why not let her look like she did in life?
Not quite as in life, as any funeral parlour's makeup artist can tell you, but certainly less decayed.

[Xefas]

Weird I know but as a co-DM (the main one doesn't care) am I justified in doing this without a permanent "gentle repose?"

So, to go against the grain and actually respond to the OP's question: Sure, why not?

The standard idea for a "Lich" is that their bones are held together and prevented from decomposing with negative energy, while their flesh rots off and dies over time. But that's a completely arbitrary divide. Your Liches could simply hold together their flesh with negative energy just as they do with their bones.

It's an aesthetic choice and nothing more.

[Hiro]

I've always thougth lichs were like that because they simply didn't care anymore about the outside appearance.

But more like she wanted to be the "bad guy you hate but never confront directly...while realizin she's working against you" type.

I also did it so that the PC's wouldn't immediately know what she is (she also has a misdirection spell up to redirect scrys or th elike onto someone nearby)

But her animosity is primarily centered on THEM and takes great pleasure at having them do her biddin before she "pounces" on them unexpectedly. it's also a way to figure out what they can and can't do.

[Psyren]

There are liches that look... fresh(?) enough to pass for the living. For example, Dallia Thistledown (LM 153) is a halfling lich bard that works in the castle kitchens. "She's kind and friendly, always greeting friends and strangers alike with a beaming smile and freshly baked cinnamon rolls or tea cakes. She's nice to animals and children." According to LM, she's been a lich for 3 years at that point, and no mention of disguises or illusory magic are given in her description. And since nobody knows she's a lich, she must look pretty ordinary.

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

You could even use it as a plot hook. Rather than making it permanent, make her use magical makeup made from the hearts of human virgins (or some other suitably-evil material component). A nearby village believes that they're terrorized by a dragon and send a virgin up once a month as a sacrifice, but it's actually being done by the lich.

[KillianHawkeye]

Can a lich not be skeletal in appearance? Sure, why not. BUT, if you're going to make a change like this to a monster that PCs are familiar with, you should tell them upfront that not all liches look the same. Otherwise, you are just playing on the assumptions of your players who only know about the standard lich in order to trick them into not figuring out your BBEG, which IMO is really unfair.

The best approach would be to use an item, such as a Vest of Gentle Repose, so that when you do get to the point where you reveal that the character is a lich and the players ask why she looks normal, you have a real and viable answer other than "because I said so." There is nothing wrong with DM Fiat, but it's always better to not need to resort to that.

[Hiro]

Hmm you raise good points.

Maybe I'll keep a ring of gentle repose or somethin on her but not in an obvious way.

and Lich is totally arbitrary really to answer the question someone asked.

But this person gained unique abilities after she "died" (and is actually still alive. a sort of weird "in between state".

I'd use revenant but it doens't work since they're afraid of what killed them:

This one totally ignores it thanks to the unbridled hatred she's carrying for these heroes.

Basically thanks an earlier adventure: they actually sank (collateral damage thanks to usin an artifact they couldn't control) her home village and after a few months of tryin to keep the survivors alive; she and the rest of them died. But as the last one and promisingto "make them pay" she carries the hatred of some 100,000 angry dead ()and can in fact use their shadows/ghosts as cohorts).

Enough to fight death off and survive in theend.

Her ultimate goal is not the world liki alot o fbaddies: but to exterminate teh heroes themselves. They aren't "in her way" they are her target.

[Arcanist]

Liches are generally described as skeletal/rotted/etc. I'd let you do it, but with some source of Gentle Repose.

If I recall correctly, immediately after performing the ritual the body remains in appearance only exactly as it did before the ritual. Rotting and decaying happens slowly after at the same rate that a normal body would decay. I would argue that as long as the Lich remains in a vacuum environment it will be A-OK.

Lich's are generally obsessed with appearances so keeping a mirror around that shows them what they once were before becoming a Lich (CL 1 wondrous item , Silent image) or simply disguising themselves as something else... Generally if a Wizard is banning Illusion they don't give a rats ass about appearances so that is my explanation for what a Lich with no access to Illusions does :smallsigh:

[Spuddles]

I've always figured that your standard lich is so ancient that it begins to decay into a corpselike creature. Without positive energy, any regenerative process restore some semblence of form, but the underlying rot and decay become more apparent. In my campaigns, disease isn't a product of microorganisms, but negative energy. So having anti-life running your body causes you to look corpselike.

Check out these two liches:
http://ia.media-imdb.com/images/M/MV5BNzQ3MTYzNDQzOV5BMl5BanBnXkFtZTYwODU2OTI5._V1._ SY317_CR0,0,214,317_.jpg

[Hiro]

Hmm Well that all makes sense and to a degree it's an aesthetic thing I just wonder why the discrepency between the "lifelife" undead (vampires, revenants) and Liches is all.

I guess I got the question answered.

Any suggestions on cool things to do to the PC"s to keep them dancing around for her amusement? :3

[Norin]

This guy here is rather "gaunt" id say:

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Aumvor_The_Undying

:smallbiggrin:



After attaining lichdom, he has grown more obese, resembling the bloated, rotten corpse of a drowned man, with bone-white slimy skin dangling over his skeletal frame.

[Namfuak]

Can a lich not be skeletal in appearance? Sure, why not. BUT, if you're going to make a change like this to a monster that PCs are familiar with, you should tell them upfront that not all liches look the same.

It doesn't seem like he should have to mention this upfront - if one of them rolls k: Religion, he shouldn't be saying that all liches look rotted and then not force that condition on this particular one, but if players simply go forward based on metagame knowledge it is not unfair to change something within the game. I think it makes it more fun when DMs are adding their own twist to things, to be honest.

[Marnath]

I always thought that the way it worked was there's a period of time between when you die and rise again as undead. Whatever condition your body is in at the moment of your rebirth is how you get stuck at. Like if you died of a thrust to the chest and laid in a ditch for a few days you'd come back with a giant hole in your chest and you'd be pretty nasty looking. If you got hurt, that's the state negative energy would "heal" you to.

So in the case of the lich, you'd just have to hire someone to cast gentle repose on you for the few days or whatever between your unspeakable ritual and the time when you rise again as a lich. You might still have to use make-up or a minor illusion to give your skin that flushed look and simulate breathing.

[Eldan]

Can a lich not be skeletal in appearance? Sure, why not. BUT, if you're going to make a change like this to a monster that PCs are familiar with, you should tell them upfront that not all liches look the same. Otherwise, you are just playing on the assumptions of your players who only know about the standard lich in order to trick them into not figuring out your BBEG, which IMO is really unfair.

:smallconfused:
If they metagame like that, perhaps they deserve to be surprised once in a while.

[Hiro]

Well it's been made clear that Liches like everyone with magic power can "look however they want" the equal to saying "they're all different"

[Slipperychicken]

Along the "hearts of virgins" line:

There was actually an old tale of some woman who would have virgins (or just any young women, can't remember the specifics) killed, and then bathe in their blood to prevent aging. Obviously that doesn't work in real life, but it's the kind of thing which would fit pretty well into a D&D setting of appropriate darkness-level. I think it would be thematically very appropriate for a vain old she-Lich to do. Especially for a dramatic reveal of her "True" nature.

[Hiro]

Ahhh Elizabeth Bathory you mean. And yeah it would work and would squick the players out pretty good.

[Craft (Cheese)]

Can a lich not be skeletal in appearance? Sure, why not. BUT, if you're going to make a change like this to a monster that PCs are familiar with, you should tell them upfront that not all liches look the same. Otherwise, you are just playing on the assumptions of your players who only know about the standard lich in order to trick them into not figuring out your BBEG, which IMO is really unfair.

Only if the player's characters would be aware of that. If the characters aren't even aware that liches exist, let alone exactly what they are, how they work, or how to recognize one, it's perfectly fair game to change these up without warning.

[Arcanist]

Along the "hearts of virgins" line:

There was actually an old tale of some woman who would have virgins (or just any young women, can't remember the specifics) killed, and then bathe in their blood to prevent aging. Obviously that doesn't work in real life, but it's the kind of thing which would fit pretty well into a D&D setting of appropriate darkness-level. I think it would be thematically very appropriate for a vain old she-Lich to do. Especially for a dramatic reveal of her "True" nature.

They make a loose reference to her in Exemplars of Evil... I do very much wish to play a game revolved around her being a Vampire, however I feel that my players would all try to kill each other over who she bites first :smallannoyed:

[Yora]

The original lich Koshei wasn't exactly undead, but he simply couldn't die. But he still kept growing older which after some centuries made him look almost skeleton.
It could easily be said that a D&D lich does that as well and for the first 20 to 40 years, they don't really look much different from a living person until they are well beyond of what would have been their natural lifespan.

[Spuddles]

They make a loose reference to her in Exemplars of Evil... I do very much wish to play a game revolved around her being a Vampire, however I feel that my players would all try to kill each other over who she bites first :smallannoyed:

Yes, let them believe she bites her victims.... Until they find themselves hung upside with their throats opened up as she bathes naked beneath them.

[Arcanist]

The original lich Koshei wasn't exactly undead, but he simply couldn't die. But he still kept growing older which after some centuries made him look almost skeleton.
It could easily be said that a D&D lich does that as well and for the first 20 to 40 years, they don't really look much different from a living person until they are well beyond of what would have been their natural lifespan.

Ooo... I actually like this recommendation. Koschei The Deathless is a wonderful example of how a Lich should be... Paranoia and all (Seriously, finding his Phylactery would be an Epic adventure...).

*High Fives Spuddles*

[Morph Bark]

BOOMER! Don't let it puke on you!

[White_Drake]

Looks perfectly like a human, except for a dozen tiny details that are almost possible to put your finger on? Are you familiar with the uncanny valley?

On another note, every tiny little scratch would show up without a natural healing process, unless negative energy actually healed cuts and such. I think it would be cooler to imagine negative energy healing as simply pumping enough juice into the wreckage of their mortal frame to keep it moving, rather than a true healing process.

[Kaervaslol]

You are the DM, liches look like you want them to look.

http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/16458695/images/1317259039812.jpg

[Darth Stabber]

As long as you haven't ventured into demilich territory, you can easily just use gentle repose, especially magic items with that effect. It could also be accomplished via illusion, or if you are enterprising enough transmutation.

[nedz]

A Hat of Disguise — or similar — would be all that she would require.

[Tantaburs]

Wouldn't a Hat of Disguise work in this case.

[Zale]

She's eating LA: 4 to be a Lich.

I'd let her look how she wants, since she's exchanging four levels to be a Lich..

[Arcanist]

She's eating LA: 4 to be a Lich.

I'd let her look how she wants, since she's exchanging four levels to be a Lich..

3 if you are doing buy back. Just enough to get 9th level spells and still be a threat :smallamused:

[Zale]

3 if you are doing buy back. Just enough to get 9th level spells and still be a threat :smallamused:

It's still far behind enough to justify being able to decide on your characters aesthetic.

If they'd like to make things more interesting, then certainly the bathing in virgin blood idea is.. cool.

Or make her buy a ring on top of having three-four empty levels.

[KillianHawkeye]

She's eating LA: 4 to be a Lich.

Pretty sure we are talking about an NPC here, so not really.

[Wookie-ranger]

I posted this in another tread, but it fits here nicely.



Unguent of Timelessness
When applied to any matter that was once alive this ointment allows that substance to resist the passage of time. Each year of actual time affects the substance as if only a day had passed. The coated object gains a +1 resistance bonus on all saving throws. The unguent never wears off, although it can be magically removed (by dispelling the effect, for instance). One flask contains enough material to coat eight Medium or smaller objects. A Large object counts as two Medium objects, and a Huge object counts as two Large objects.
Faint transmutation; CL 3rd; Craft Wondrous Item; Price 150 gp.
By RAW This includes undead because they count as something that 'was once alive'; or at the very least your dead body before you perform the ritual.


If you want to use 3rdd party sources the book "Secret College of Necromancy" has the Lich variant 'Quick Lich' also called the 'Living Lich' (p.57).
The ritual takes a while to perform (360 days) but then turns you into a Lich that looks exactly like a living person. As a bonus you use your own body as a phylacery and you can store body parts (pinky finger, tooth, etc) where you will reform from 13days after you have been destroyed.

[Zale]

Pretty sure we are talking about an NPC here, so not really.

Then what's the problem?

If it's a villain, slap something evil on there.

If it's not, then handwave-gentle repose.

[nedz]

I posted this in another tread, but it fits here nicely.


By RAW This includes undead because they count as something that 'was once alive'; or at the very least your dead body before you perform the ritual.


If you want to use 3rdd party sources the book "Secret College of Necromancy" has the Lich variant 'Quick Lich' also called the 'Living Lich' (p.57).
The ritual takes a while to perform (360 days) but then turns you into a Lich that looks exactly like a living person. As a bonus you use your own body as a phylacery and you can store body parts (pinky finger, tooth, etc) where you will reform from 13days after you have been destroyed.

Amusing — so her phylactery would be a jar of face cream.

Presumably a reforming Lich would look like 'new' anyway — so all she has to do is disintegrate herself once in a while, reform in a new 'body' and bathe in the lotion.

[TuggyNE]

Basically thanks an earlier adventure: they actually sank (collateral damage thanks to usin an artifact they couldn't control) her home village and after a few months of tryin to keep the survivors alive; she and the rest of them died. But as the last one and promisingto "make them pay" she carries the hatred of some 100,000 angry dead ()and can in fact use their shadows/ghosts as cohorts).

... that is (or was) the largest village in the history of ever.

[FatherMalkav]

Along the "hearts of virgins" line:

There was actually an old tale of some woman who would have virgins (or just any young women, can't remember the specifics) killed, and then bathe in their blood to prevent aging. Obviously that doesn't work in real life, but it's the kind of thing which would fit pretty well into a D&D setting of appropriate darkness-level. I think it would be thematically very appropriate for a vain old she-Lich to do. Especially for a dramatic reveal of her "True" nature.

Elizabeth Bathory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_B%C3%A1thory)

[DigoDragon]

I think it's fair to have liches look like perfectly living beings.

My most popular lich ever was the immortal BBEG Miluda. When the players first met her, the description made it seem she was just a crazy spellcaster in her mid-20s. When the party "killed" her the first time they thought nothing of it, picked her pockets, and moved on.

When the body was gone on their way out of the dungeon and the party later saw her working on some new project, then they were wondering what was up. That's where they got to do a little research into lichdom and learned what she really was.

I even played up the looks-- in my campaign world, the more powerful the lich, the more they look like a living being than an undead thing.

[Scots Dragon]

Before 3rd edition, there was Szass Tam, who used preservation spells to keep himself looking like a living being. Knowledge of his nature as a lich was kept secret.

[Slipperychicken]

Elizabeth Bathory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_B%C3%A1thory)

There we go.

[Morph Bark]

Why were there three posts deleted from the first page? :smallconfused:

[Hiro]

I was exagerrating on the population of the village bit.

The point is she's carrying the combined outrages of every single oneof them.

[Lapak]

As a variation on the continues-to-age theme: perhaps becoming a lich in the setting doesn't cause you to rot or decay directly, AND you don't decay naturally, but the negative energy that holds you together is focused on your skeleton, not your soft parts, and only your skeleton will actually repair itself in the event of damage.

So you can stay perfectly human-looking for exactly as long as you don't take damage to your skin (and organs.) They are neutral material - if you are cut, it doesn't bleed or rot but it also doesn't ever close or heal. Some liches decide to cut to the chase and remove the stuff as useless; but one who actually cared about appearances would go to extreme lengths to avoid damage to their appearance. Over the centuries, a truly vain lich might suffer some injuries that can be covered up - Andrew the Undying always wears long sleeves to hide the gashes left in his arms (defensive injuries against a paladin 200 years ago); Elizabeth the Eternal always styles her hair to conceal the fact that she lost an ear shortly after her transformation.

If you went this route, then you also create the possibility of a conflict that doesn't destroy her but makes her an absolutely furious enemy-for-life of the party; if they attack and cause an injury to her face or some such they've destroyed her ability to blend in forever and she will be filled with rage beyond mortal comprehension.

[Hiro]

*rubs chin* that actually would be interesting. Though creepy and probably very scary to handle. Now I'm baking my brain to come up with ways to keep her int he party memory without really standing out too obviously as the BBEG.

[Rijan_Sai]

You know, I think you're all forgetting one simple solution: Alter Self (www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/alterSelf.htm).
A lich (www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lich.htm) is specifically and explicitly not immune to it's own Polymorph effect, and it's my understanding that AS is considered the most basic polymorph-effect spell.

A lich, being a rather powerful spell caster, (going by fluff, and ignoring for the moment the mechanical aspect of +4 LA...,) would be able to afford an occasional 2nd level spell-slot (or, if 10 minutes/level isn't long enough, persist it at the cost of an 8th level slot...).

[Lapak]

*rubs chin* that actually would be interesting. Though creepy and probably very scary to handle. Now I'm baking my brain to come up with ways to keep her int he party memory without really standing out too obviously as the BBEG.Overlooked this earlier. The best advice I have on this score is not to single her out: throw together stats (at least a skeleton of stats), simple background and motivations for ~3 other characters. Introduce them at the same time, or close together, with the villain. Ideally, have them interacting in some way: they're all together for some reason, or they're working against each other either separately or in groups. In her case, perhaps she's gathered some mortal allies and/or patsies and is working with them; perhaps she's butted heads with other enemies of the PCs in a 'hands off, they're MINE' kind of way; perhaps she's decided to get as close to them as possible the better to mess with them and so joins a caravan or insinuates herself into a court that the PCs are with / are hired to protect / whatever.

The point is, give yourself a few other NPCs in the same environment so she's there but not the only fleshed-out person. Since she can use ghosts as cohorts, they can be attacked pretty obviously without it being apparent who is behind it.

If you want them to hate her without immediately suspecting she's the bad guy, make it clear that she dislikes THEM. For whatever reason makes sense in context: they're outsiders, they're common, she misunderstood something they said as an insult. Or make her the collateral victim of one of the attacks: they let those attacking ghosts smash her rare stock of perfumes and spices and now she has nothing to sell, the party caster's Fireball killed her pet dog while fighting off bandits, the party bard embarrassed her in front of Don Importante, whatever. Just make sure that the other NPCs you introduce also interact with the party: if she's an enemy, one of them is an extra-clingy ally, one of them is opposed in an utterly professional way, one of them things the PCs are a great target for his next scam.

[Hiro]

Basically give her a legitimate/reasonable excuse to hate them and work against the openly but NOT the one she's really doing it for. Something trival or frivolous like a vain or snooty noblewoman might?

[Lapak]

Basically give her a legitimate/reasonable excuse to hate them and work against the openly but NOT the one she's really doing it for. Something trival or frivolous like a vain or snooty noblewoman might?Just so. Do that and muddle her in with a few other people, and they won't be able to point to her and go 'That one. Definitely that one!'

They still might suspect, of course, but as long as they have more than one possibility they won't jump without proof in case they're wrong.

(Unless they are a particularly bloodthirsty and chaotic bunch, of course. :smalltongue:)

[Whybird]

In the game I'm running, undead are a person's body, held together by the remnant of its soul, which appears as a sort of superimposition of that person's self-image. The stronger the soul, the more powerful the undead. So very weak undead just look like walking skeletons or zombies: the soul's so weak as to be practically invisible. The very powerful ones look exactly as they did when they were alive, except that every so often -- if they're distracted, or surprised, or angry -- there's a momentary flicker, and you can see the bones beneath the skin.

[genericwit]

I don't know if you've read the Malazan Book of the Fallen, but in one of the books an undead hero goes to a mortician or beautician [can't remember which] specifically to make herself more attractive/not smell like literal death.

If your character is a Lich, she is probably powerful and wealthy enough to have a staff member on hand to keep her appearance pleasant.

[White_Drake]

(Unless they are a particularly bloodthirsty and chaotic bunch, of course. :smalltongue:)

Wait a second, I thought you guys were talking about a D&D adventuring party; what did I miss. :smallconfused:

[PlusSixPelican]

It's a Lich. The important part's the phylactery. The lich can look like a winged turtle on rollerskates for all it matters. If someone makes the Know: Religion check, don't lie and tell 'em the Lich isn't a Lich, or with a lower roll, that that isn't an undead.

But yeah, not all liches have to rot. Undeath might look damn fine on some people.

[Darth Stabber]

Wait a second, I thought you guys were talking about a D&D adventuring party; what did I miss. :smallconfused:

I'm with you, if something even smells amiss the players in current campaign will stab the crap out of it. I've given them the option of any alignment, so long as they are realistic about rping it: is it a surprise that the whole part is within one step of chaotic evil? And they don't act any different than any other group i've gm'd for.

[4th number]

A Hat of Disguise — or similar — would be all that she would require.

Does that cover the smell? :smalltongue:

[PlusSixPelican]

That, or some perfume. Or just burning a lot of incense in her chamber.

[nedz]

Does that cover the smell? :smalltongue:

Nothing covers the smell �— but that wasn't the question :smalltongue:

[Lapak]

I don't know if you've read the Malazan Book of the Fallen, but in one of the books an undead hero goes to a mortician or beautician [can't remember which] specifically to make herself more attractive/not smell like literal death.

If your character is a Lich, she is probably powerful and wealthy enough to have a staff member on hand to keep her appearance pleasant.


Nothing covers the smell �— but that wasn't the question :smalltongue:IIRC, the character genericwit is talking about here had her beautician/mortician/taxidermist literally stuff her insides with sweet-smelling preservative herbs. Kept the rot at bay AND made her smell nice.