Fighter 20 help

[DM7581]

Hello all. I've posted before (as luck would have it, still playing the same campaign). A little backstory...

There is an npc fighter named Crassus (yes, after the video game) who started out as hired help back in pre-2.5 AD&D. He pretty much was the tank (the party consisted of a rogue, cleric, and specialist invoker), since no one wanted to play the warrior. He was pretty well-rounded by 2e standards, but once we switched to 3e and eventually 3.5, well, we all know how the fighter class changed.

Since then, a barbarian/fighter/frenzied berserker joined the ranks, so I started gearing my npc fighter (when he'd show up) toward defense. I have gone through countless builds with this guy, but I am seeking some expert opinions (that's where you guys come in).

Here is the gist of Crassus, as well as some ground rules:

Sword and shield fighter, balanced offensively and defensively
Weapon supremacy a must
No multi-classing
I know the Warblade is tier 3 while the fighter is tier 5... Not the point. There is honor in building a decent fighter
Low magic campaign means low magic item dependency
I allow any book in my game, subject to my approval, so pretty much any official source goes
This is for a 3.5 game, not 3.75 or PF
The game has gone epic, but I want to keep him at 20... We may rotate DM for this one, so I may end up playing him.
Zhentarim may not work due to him being LG, although the bonus features are enticing

Here is his current build:

Human fighter 20

Str 16/21 (increases)
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 13
Wis 13
Cha 8

Skills:
Intimidate (maxed)
Tumble (maxed)
(2 more)

Skill tricks:
Never outnumbered
Back on your feet

Acf:
Skilled city dweller (tumble)
Resolute
Armor of god
Dungeon crasher
Overwhelming attack

Feats:
Weapon supremacy tree (6 feats)
Combat expertise, improved trip, improved combat expertise
Power attack, improved sunder, improved bull rush, shock trooper, combat brute

Longsword, tower shield, full plate for equipment. Also some magical gear, but I don't want the gear to overshadow the character.

I am interested in combat form feats, but I'd have to give up some offense or acfs to swing that. I've also considered shield specialization/ward as well as armor specialization/optimizations. My goal is to be able to be able to beat/outlast the FB. Anybody know a better build? Thanks in advance for your help.

[rockdeworld]

These (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19869062/6_hits_to_1:_Jack_B._Quick) are both (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870774/Fighter-20:_The_34;Gatling_Chain_Gun34;_Tripper) better builds for balancing offense and defense, as well as being Fighter 20. Unfortunately, neither are sword and shield like you want.

Adding the Robilar's Gambit and Sidestep feats can help any defensive fighter build, including the one above. Edit: And Karmic Strike. Defensive throw may help your build. Power Attack will almost certainly not.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You can use the Zhentarim Soldier sub levels and rename it something like Big Bad Bully, and say that he'd rather scare away weaker foes than kill them. Definitely give him Imperious Command and the Never Outnumbered skill trick.

Give him something that makes him count as large size, such as Goliath or Half-Giant or Half-Ogre with the level adjustment bought off, or Half-Minotaur or even Half-Goristro (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=234089#4), or make it something as simple as Enlarge Person + Permanency (not recommended at that level) or the Jotunbrud feat. Note that using Jotunbrud excludes Dreadful Wrath. Use the Dungeoncrasher ACF in Dungeonscape, and give him the feat Knock-Back from Races of Stone. Knock-Down is also highly recommended, as is some sort of reach with Combat Reflexes. You can use the Half-Humans variant from Races of Destiny p150 to let any part-human race take feats with Human as a prerequisite such as Dreadful Wrath.

With the existence of animated shields there's really no reason to use a hand to hold a shield, unless you're using it as a weapon. You could make the shield +5 Defending, put shield spikes on it that are +5 Defending, and wear armor spikes that are +5 Defending along with two gauntlets which are each +5 Defending for an extra +25 AC, but this is supposed to be low-magic-dependence. If he's stuck with a one-handed weapon, I'd make it a Morningstar, get Melee Weapon Mastery for both Bludgeoning and Piercing, and take the feat Three Mountains in CW. Definitely put the Speed property on that, and also consider giving him Ability Focus: Three Mountains for +2 DC.

He's probably going to be wearing heavy armor, so you definitely want him to be a psionic character, whether by race or spending a feat on Wild/Hidden Talent or Warped Mind (which is good if you also want Inhuman Reach and even Starspawn for natural flight). That way you can get the feat Deflective Armor and even Focused Shield, along with (Greater) Heavy Armor Optimization. Don't forget about Shield Specialization and Shield Ward. You're giving him max ranks in Tumble, probably as a class skill in exchange for Ride, but it's impossible to even use the Tumble skill in medium or heavy armor unless you're a Dwarf.

I'd just like to point out that considering Melee Weapon Mastery, a given Fighter 20 will not have enough feats for all of the above even with two flaws. In any case get tons of skill tricks, especially the ones based on Balance and Tumble, and check the magical locations in the back of Complete Scoundrel for feats you can gain for cash/time/RP instead of spending feats on them, like Iron Will.

[Gwendol]

Use the rules outlined in the DMG (p 33) for using STR rather than CHA when intimidating (will net you +6 to the check if I read your abilities correctly).

I really must second the Dreadful Wrath feat suggestion, especially since you seem to be doing a lot of charging.

Go for the animated shield/THF suggestion. If you want to keep up with the FB you simply will have to.

However, here's another suggestion seeing that you have a 20 level build. Go Knight instead. Keep the whole demoralizing focus, switch WIS and CHA around. You'll have to give up weapon supremacy, but you'll gain AC, bulwark of defence, and one of the coolest capstones in the game: Loyal beyond death.

Equipped with a reach weapon I'd trade the sunder-related feats for combat reflexes and feats related to AoO's: Stand Still, Hold the Line, Robilar's gambit, Defensive sweep, etc.

[nedz]

Unfortunately Sword and Board is quite poor in 3.5 and so this guy will not transition well. Fighter is weaker also, a lot weaker.
There are Shield feats, but many of these don't work with Tower shields. (Shield Specialisation and Shield Ward).
There are a few shield wall type feats, but these only benefit allies.
(Shieldmate, Improved Shieldmate, and a few more)
A good use of a shield is to boost AC simply by ramping up its enchantments — which you say you don't want to do.
A better use is to have it animated so that you can use a two handed weapon.

[DM7581]

Great feedback everyone.

I will probably stack on the zhentarim variant. Additionally, the dead levels option from wotc (physical prowess) will probably be added on. I guess they don't add on the non-dead zhentarim substitution levels, or do they?
How necessary is the larger size/jotonbrud build? If I drop tripping, is it less important?
What about combat form feats? I need at least 3 to make them any good. Are they worth it?
I know i said it was a must, is weapon supremacy all that? If I drop it (and make him a truly better all-around type), which options open up for me? I can have 2-handed options as well as defensive options without committing to a single weapon.
I know shield defense is sub-par, but I would hate to be using an animated one, plus tower shields can provide cover. Being that the FB is a 2-handed weapon build, it should compliment him, or at least provide a different flavor to combat.
Also, tumble doesn't need to be maxed (I may need to cc balance for additional tricks), and he will not be tumbling around, but rather needing only enough ranks for the defensive fighting additional ac bonus and back on your feet skill trick (not that the guy is a skill monkey or anything, but it opens up points)
Dreadful wrath seems awesome with swift demoralization and never outnumbered (do these fear effects stack and how do they?)
I'm not too keen on burning a feat or level on psionic ability because it kinda goes too far away from the character concept

Any build suggestions? Feat order is not important since he is already level 20, except for qualifying at the appropriate level. If he takes the zhentarim-imperious command-dreadful wrath route he will need a 14 cha with an increase at 4th, taking a hit to his other stats and probably will not qualify for the combat form feats (32 point build):

Str 15/19
Dex 13
Con 12
Int 13
Wis 12
Cha 14/15

Alternatively, I can keep the str at 18 and bump wis by level 8 (or even drop starting str to 14 [raising to 18 eventually], raise wis to 13 and dex to 14), again only if combat form is worthwhile.

In short:

Acf (replaces 5 fighter feats):
Skilled-city dweller (tumble)
Dungeon crasher
Resolute
Armor of god
Overwhelming attack
Zhentarim solider

Feats (14 total remaining feats):
Dreadful wrath
Imperious command
Combat expertise
Improved combat expertise
(10 open depending on build; enough for about 2 of: supremacy, combat form, charging, tripping, defense [shield/armor feats], AoO, but not all)

Ah, the options... Again, thanks for the help and feedback.

[Gavinfoxx]

Choose as many of these (or similar) as you can when making a 'fighter'

Zhentarim Soldier http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a

Thug http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighterVariantThug

Skilled City Dweller (Ride for Tumble) http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a

Dungeon Crusher (Dungeonscape)

Exoticist (Dragon Magazine #310)

Hit and Run (Drow of the Underdark)

Physical Prowess http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20061013a

Yea, the other ones are good too.

[rockdeworld]

How necessary is the larger size/jotonbrud build? If I drop tripping, is it less important?
Very important. Larger size gives you greater reach (so you can hit enemies and perform battlefield control), and a +4 size modifier on Trip/Bullrush/Grapple checks. Dropping tripping alone does not make it less important. And tripping is one of the best abilities for a core fighter.

Combat Focus (needed), Combat Strike, and Combat Vigor are a decent set. Gain +4 will saves and Fast Healing 4 after hitting an opponent, then drop it to get +3 hit and damage on a strike. IMO you could do worse (like take Weapon Focus).
Edit: Just re-read these. The problem with Combat Focus is you can only gain it once-per-encounter, so you don't want to use it on combat strike. You could take Combat Awareness for Blindsight 5' (very useful, unless your range is 10', then just useful), but that requires taking Blind-fight, which is a 2-feat investment. Not to mention you need Wis 13 for all of these, so you're increasing MAD (thereby making yourself weaker overall). If you have the 4 extra feats and 5 extra point-buy points (or a roll that you need to place), then the +4 Will, Fast Healing 4, and Blindsight 5' can be worthwhile.

Re: Weapon Supremacy
The +4 bonus on resisting disarm is outclassed by a locked guantlet.
Wielding your weapon during a grapple isn't bad.
The +5 bonus on a single iterative attack is useful if you full-attack.
Taking 10 is good also.
+1 to AC is garbage.
To summarize, it's a worthwhile feat with extremely steep prerequisites, so much so that it's not worth taking.

Not taking weapon supremacy allows you to use other weapons, yes, but not well. Unlike a sorcerer, which is the least versatile of all spellcasters, a fighter can't choose to focus on offense one day and defense the next. By level 20, either he has a really good trick, or perhaps 2 okay tricks, or a bunch of junk that'll get him killed if it hasn't already. Optimized specialization is the key for a fighter.

Fear effects are cumulative, so multiple abilities that cause shaken would instead cause shaken, then frightened, then panicked.

Also, I almost forgot about this: getting cover from a tower shield is nice during low levels, when enemies are firing swarms of arrows at you. It's less nice at high/epic levels, when you can reliably expect to get hit with Blasphemy (or worse) 4-8 times per day. And Blasphemy goes around corners.

[eggs]

Apologies for doing the part-by-part response. I know they're hard to read, but there are a lot of questions here, and it's easier to keep context this way.

I will probably stack on the zhentarim variant. Additionally, the dead levels option from wotc (physical prowess) will probably be added on. I guess they don't add on the non-dead zhentarim substitution levels, or do they?
I'm under the impression that sub levels almost work like a separate class - overwriting everything that a level of Fighter would have gotten with their own benefits. So I'd hazard a "no" on that one (also because filling a level that isn't dead seems to go against the spirit of the filler).

How necessary is the larger size/jotonbrud build? If I drop tripping, is it less important?
It's not necessary, but it's a sizable bonus to trip. If you're tripping, you want to be sure you can keep up with monster/enemy trip scores; size bonuses are just one of the easier ways of achieving that.

But the larger draw of larger size or Powerful Build on a Fighter is that they open the Knockback feat, which switches Dungeoncrasher from an alternative to normal attacks into an addition to normal attacks.

What about combat form feats? I need at least 3 to make them any good. Are they worth it?
As much as I like that feat chain, they're not that great - especially if you have Resolute to patch the Fighter's will. If you have some feat slots to fill after you've put a build's core combination together, and you have the stats to spare, maybe think about them, but they aren't worth a high priority.

I know i said it was a must, is weapon supremacy all that? If I drop it (and make him a truly better all-around type), which options open up for me? I can have 2-handed options as well as defensive options without committing to a single weapon.
I know shield defense is sub-par, but I would hate to be using an animated one, plus tower shields can provide cover. Being that the FB is a 2-handed weapon build, it should compliment him, or at least provide a different flavor to combat.
Weapon Supremacy is a pretty nice ability, but like the Combat Form feats, it won't allow any new tactics for your fighter - it will just improve the tactics that are available. First establish a tactic that makes the fighter a reliable combat threat, then think about spending feats to improve your numbers on that tactic (at the cost of 6 feats, Weapon Supremacy slows lockdown/intimidation/charge/trip progressions down pretty hard).

Also, tumble doesn't need to be maxed (I may need to cc balance for additional tricks), and he will not be tumbling around, but rather needing only enough ranks for the defensive fighting additional ac bonus and back on your feet skill trick (not that the guy is a skill monkey or anything, but it opens up points)
One of the biggest benefits of Tumble is avoiding AoOs as you position yourself on the battlefield. That's a strong incentive to make the build able to reliably hit a DC 15-17 check reliably. That probably doesn't mean full ranks, but it's worth going past just 5.

Dreadful wrath seems awesome with swift demoralization and never outnumbered (do these fear effects stack and how do they?)They stack. Shaken+Shaken=Frightened, with a duration equal to the longer of the shaken effects (probably Dreadful Wrath's 1 minute).

On the proposed build, if you're using Overwhelming Assault, you're going to want to be able to force a lot of AoOs. Be sure to look into feats that make them more common, like Combat Reflexes, Defensive Sweep, Mage Slayer, Robilar's Gambit and Martial Stance: Thicket of Blades. If you're using Dungeoncrasher, you'll probably get good mileage out of Knockback and Shock Trooper.

Improved Combat Expertise is trickier to use well on a fighter (turtling is usually a poor tactic for noncasters). There are some combinations it can pull off with Dancing with Shadows to flip around into an offensive advantage, or with Allied Defense to use it to defend party members.

[Yora]

When it comes to defense at high levels, building up AC is a fight that is extremely hard to win.
Instead you get much better results by finding ways to negate damage and turn hits harmless. With a shield and armor, you get much better protection by keeping it to a +1 shield or armor and then getting enchantments that could provide damage reduction, energy resistance, immunities to certain types of magic, or miss chances. In a relatively low magic world, having trinkets that simply cast spells like blur on you three times per day with a command word would be very useful.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

How necessary is the larger size/jotonbrud build? If I drop tripping, is it less important?

Dreadful wrath seems awesome with swift demoralization and never outnumbered (do these fear effects stack and how do they?)

I'm not too keen on burning a feat or level on psionic ability because it kinda goes too far away from the character concept.

Forget tripping, the effectively-large-size is necessary for the feat Knock Back from Races of Stone, which combined with the Dungeoncrasher ACF in Dungeonscape will allow the character to do significant damage without even using a two-handed weapon. Knock-Down (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown) is just icing on the cake, as the opponent must then spend a move action to get up and another move action to get back into melee with you, so every attack you make is wasting an opponent's next turn and you don't even have to do anything special. He hits the opponents so hard that they're knocked over backward and slide across the floor to crash against the wall.

The Fear Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3809.0) is a spectacular guide on how fear effects stack. Fear effect stacking is extremely strong, especially in the low levels, and it's a great way for nonspellcasters to contribute more than just attack rolls.

I only suggested gaining the Psinoic subtype so that he'll be able to gain a psionic focus and have passive benefits when focused. Deflective Armor causes the armor bonus from your heavy armor to apply to your touch AC, Focused Shield gives you an extra +1 shield bonus. Both of those are only active when psionically focused, and only a psionic character can do that. There's nothing particularly different about creatures with the psionic subtype (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/overview.htm#thePsionicSubtype), and gaining a psionic focus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/skills/concentration.htm#gainPsionicFocus) is just a mental state of focus not unlike many martial arts practices. Basically, if you're going to have heavy armor on a character at that level, you probably want Deflective Armor just so your touch AC keeps up and you don't get automatically hit by every Enervate/Disintegrate/Mailman/etc.

[DM7581]

Ok.. everyone has been great.

If I do not list your suggestion, its because the campaign has some quirks about it (psionics is a lost, forgotten, ancient art along with blade magic [ToB] for example), so please don't take offense. Also, due to my trying to maintain the flavor of the character, going large (by a feat or otherwise) probably won't work out (he will probably have some potions of enlarge person to throw around). I want to go with an AoO/lock-type, but he will not be supremely optimized (none of my PCs are min/maxers anyway, so it shouldn't upset the campaign). I seriously considered the Knight, but I wanted to keep him true to his roots.

Crassus
Fighter 20

Str 15 (18)
Dex 14 (15)
Con 12
Int 13
Wis 11
Cha 14 (15)

Skills (92 ranks):
Intimidate 23 (+30)
Tumble 19 (+20)
Bluff 5 (+7)
Diplomacy 7 (+11)
Spellcraft 2 (+3)
Climb 10 (+10)
Jump 10 (+12)
Swim 10 (+10)

Skill Tricks:
Back on your feet
Never outnumbered

ACFs:
Skilled City-Dweller (Tumble)--self explanatory
Dungeon Crasher (Levels 2, 6)--debating this one (it will free up some feats)
Zhentarim Soldier (Levels 3, 5, 9)--given for the free fear effects
Dead Levels Variant (Levels 7, 11, 13, 15, 17, 19)--free bonuses
Resolute (Level 8)--help the will save
Armor of God (Level 20)--additional AC, if needed
Overwhelming Attack (Level 16)--helps with the build

Feats (14):
Dreadful Wrath (Human)--I may not charge as much, but a full-attack is never out of the question
Combat Expertise (1)--prereq, plus boosts some defense
Combat Reflexes (1)--prereq, plus additional AoO
Mage Slayer (3)--to help balance against casters
Standstill (4)--battlefield control, keep enemies near
Imperious Command (Level 6)--fear bonus
Improved Trip (9)--to get knockdown
Knockdown (10)--used with Overwhelming Attack and AoOs, this should be great
Robilar's Gambit (Level 12)--to get extra AoOs
Hold the Line (12)--to counter chargers (like the FB)
Deft Opportunist (14)--helps with the AoOs a lot
Defensive Sweep (15)--combined with standstill, locks in enemies, free hits
Improved Combat Expertise (18)--bonus defense (I can feel safe going without a shield if I do need to turtle)
--open--(18)

equipment:
spiked gauntlet, guisarme, longsword, morningstar, mithral fullplate, mithral large shield (optional use); some stat boosters (especially str and dex), potions of enlarge person; extra miscellaneous; carpet of flying (signature item for him)

Have I gone way off base, or is this an improvement? I know he is not the uber-optimized build, but I like his flavor. He will be able to stump the casters given the right opportunity as well as the FB. His intimidate is so high that he might even have them cowering before a fight even starts.

So, take a crack at this one, including modifying/editing his ACFs and his open level 18 feat (or anything else that can use improvement). Thanks.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Throw on Iron Will for 3,000 gp per a visit to the Otyugh Hole described in Complete Scoundrel. It doesn't cost you a feat.

Get EWP: Kusari-Gama (DMG p144-145), which is a light weapon that consists of a chain with a blade at the end. It has reach but can strike adjacent opponents, it's basically a Spiked Chain that can be used in one hand so he can still hold a shield.

I'd drop Dungeoncrasher, Resolute, Armor of God, Mage Slayer, and Improved Combat Expertise to get the six feats up to Weapon Supremacy. The CC ACFs aren't great, and Weapon Supremacy will probably serve him better.

[Wings of Peace]

At the level you're building for I would recomend swapping out the Tower Shield for a Buckler and having the old Power Attack + Shocktrooper combo on standby. The major advantage of a shield at the level you're building for is the potential enchantments and a buckler means that if the character needs a sudden burst of damage he can choose to wield his sword in two hands and perform a maximum penalty Shocktrooper charge.

Edit: If you want to beef the build up more via some extremely cheap optimization tricks I recommend a Crawling Tattoo of Psionic Lion's Charge. Note the price of said tattoo would be 300gp and then note that the duration of Psionic Lion's Charge is "Instantaneous".

[herrhauptmann]

At the level you're building for I would recomend swapping out the Tower Shield for a Buckler and having the old Power Attack + Shocktrooper combo on standby. The major advantage of a shield at the level you're building for is the potential enchantments and a buckler means that if the character needs a sudden burst of damage he can choose to wield his sword in two hands and perform a maximum penalty Shocktrooper charge.


Animated tower shield?

[Wings of Peace]

Animated tower shield?

I was recommending the buckler primarily in the event that he wanted the character to actually hold their shield rather than have it hover near them.

[EpsilRon]

1. Have him seek out a wizard and pay for them to cast Wish.
2. Have him wish he had gone to that Wizarding school instead of joining the army like his parents wanted him to.
3. ???
4. Profit.

[Yora]

The wish spell can't do that.

[Eldariel]

The wish spell can't do that.

Well, it can but that definitely crosses the limit of "Safe Wish" :smalltongue:

[nedz]

Well it could go like this

1. Have him seek out a wizard and pay for them to cast Wish.
2. Have him wish he had gone to that Wizarding school instead of joining the army like his parents wanted him to.
3. But then they kick him out because of his low intellect.
4. Becomes a fighter anyway.

[Wings of Peace]

The Troll-Blooded regional feat would go a long ways towards helping him keep up with the FB but once you start playing with Troll-Blooded you have to be very careful not to completely break it.

Troll-Blooded + Diehard would mean that aside from fire and acid damage he couldn't be killed but once he went negative he'd become -a lot- less effective in combat. This combination is good because while you'll never have to worry about him going down the PCs will generally still feel on par with him.

If you just want to see how far you can push him though then use Troll-Blooded + Ritual of Association: Construct to give him total immunity to all damage that isn't acid, fire, or vile. To go a step further you could perform the Ritual of Association a second time to also grant him the Angel racial type which grants acid immunity (as far as I know there is no racial type with immunity to fire, only the fire subtype seems to grant that). The Ritual of Elements: Fire would cover fire immunity for the Fighter but at that point you've got a largely unkillable dmpc.

Note that adding the Construct racial type would lose him some hitpoints due to the elimination of the character's constitution score.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Well, it can but that definitely crosses the limit of "Safe Wish" :smalltongue:

So you went to wizard school. While on your very first adventure you still encountered those three goblins and a wolf that you easily defeated as a fighter, but as a wizard you were quickly defeated and your limbs collected as trophies. Thanks for playing.

[Wings of Peace]

Another good type to pickup with the Ritual of Association (if you decide against Construct + Troll-Blooded) is Plant for the immunity to mind-affecting spells while keeping your con score. Mind-Affecting immunity means that for the most part it's not too dangerous for your fighter to reduce his will save every round for bonus armor.