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View Full Version : What insights into the rules of D&D could a character gain through experimentation?



obryn
2012-11-30, 03:45 PM
I remember a random little thought experiment I read somewhere as the basis for this, but wanted to see how far down the rabbit hole we could go. I'm personally very comfortable with games where the rules are not the world's physics, and instead represent kind of a narrative layer on top of the fiction...

...But in higher-sim games, this is not the way of things. And, if the laws of physics are reflected in the rules of the game, I started thinking about wizards. This is intended kind of tongue-in-cheek.

Okay. So there's some wizards of varying levels in a wizard's tower somewhere. They are indubitably intelligent - smarter than we are - so they start experimenting with the laws of the universe.

(1) They know that their members can prepare X, Y, Z spells of I, II, III levels, and that these are always distinct quantities in a regular progression. They have at this point figured out the spell chart.

(2) The ranges and areas of effect of their spells increase in distinct, quantized measurements - usually 5' or 10' each* - and that this increase corresponds with the number of spells prepared.

(3) These gains only come in specific units. At this point, these Wizards have figured out Levels as a fundamental feature of the universe, and can even engineer out their specific levels through use of (for example) spell ranges.

(4) By blasting damaging spells at uniform targets of specific kind - like walls and blocks of wood - they can determine the percent of the time the item is blown up. By letting Wizards of different levels do this, they can further chart the efficacy - the block of wood is destroyed X% of the time by a Fireball spell by a wizard of Y level. At this point, they can figure out Hit Points as a fundamental feature of objects.

(4a) If they're particularly unethical, they can figure it out about goblins or kobolds, too.

(5) By the same token, they can determine that the probability of destroying targets is shaped in a curve best represented by Xd6, where X is their Level.

(6) With repeated uses of spells like Charm Person on each other, they can determine (a) saving throws, (b) Wizards' Will save progressions, (c) the caster's Intelligence bonuses, and (d) the targets' Wisdom bonuses.

(7) By doing this against (for example) town guards, they can further work out non-Wizards' Will Save progressions and Wisdom scores.

(8) The Wizards can get people to lift heavy things. They notice the maximum amounts their subjects can lift are, in turn, quantized into distinct units of measurement instead of smooth. By casting buffing spells, they can work out the progression and notice that it matches at every step. They have just worked out possibly as much as the entire 3-18 or 3-22 scale for Strength and can refer to it by a number.


Okay. So at this point, these Wizards can speak about Levels, Saving Throws, Wisdom Bonuses, Strength, and Hit Points. What else can they do? Can they - from the spell list in the PHB - figure out the entire rules of the game in which they are characters?

-O

* As an aside, "five feet" is a fundamental measurement of the universe, bound into its metaphysical laws.

PetterTomBos
2012-11-30, 03:58 PM
The problem with quantum mechanics is that it is quantized into discrete little bits, that seemingly work in weird ways...

DUN DUN DUNNNNN!!!

(Tongue in cheek of course ;) )

But seriously, that would be a fun scenario. Hmm, about lvl.s and spells, yup, they could figure it out. But, given that NPC's don't lvl. that often, feats that help spells, and such, it would be a really hard task. But, Einstein was probably lvl. 6 ;)

(This could esily be "fixed" by the DM ruling that NPC' gain lvl. continously, and that some may not gain all features and so on)

obryn
2012-11-30, 04:09 PM
Yep, and going further...

(9) Bonus spells for high intelligence, as soon as they figure out the progression system. They can now determine their own Intelligence scores based on how many spells they can prepare when they get their first spell of X level. They now know who's smarter.

(10) Their actual numerical level - in case I wasn't clear before - because it's used in spell range and area formulae. So they could (and maybe should) refer to themselves as a Level 5 Wizard and have it mean the same thing as when a player says it.

(11) Get their cleric buddies into the mix; priests of a magic or knowledge god should be amenable. Their levels and bonus spells from Wisdom should likewise be apparent. So now you can refer to "James, the Level 7 Cleric." They also know there's a Wisdom statistic, since the same thing that makes Clerics learn more spells also contributes to the % chance a Charm spell will affect them.

(12) Can they at this point figure out ... characters' or monsters' hit points, the amount of damage done by daggers vs. swords, and how much a Cure X Wounds spell heals? This is less immediately obvious, but...

For certain, we can add to the list (1) That there are further variations in Intelligence and Wisdom based on bonus spells, (2) Cleric levels, and (3) a Wisdom statistic beyond the mere bonus.

-O

Kazyan
2012-11-30, 04:26 PM
This is extremely handwavable with "they're Wizards; they smart enough to get around all the problems for knowing this stuff!" as an ether variable. But I do have to bring up something: a lot of this would require massive sample sizes to determine anything. The poor shmuck who gets hit with Charm Person 1000 times resists it, what, 213 times? Uh-oh, there goes that granularity for Int and Wis mods; it's not a clean 5% multiple; better hit him with another 4000 and wait why is he crying.

You have to be able to quantify that saving throws work in steps of 5% before you get determine Int mods and Wis mods, but even then, there's a lot of confounding variables that could throw out otherwise accurate hypotheses. Don't even get me started on circumstance modifiers throwing off all the data.

obryn
2012-11-30, 04:41 PM
Well, keep in mind - this is a tower of bored wizards, all of whom are very smart on account of being wizards. I will posit that these don't rely on any probability distributions and are immediately "visible" with a pool of a few dozen Wizards:

(1) Quantifiable caster levels for wizards and clerics, including the actual level numbers, based on both casting capability and experimentation with known spell ranges.

(2) Ditto for Bards, Paladins, etc - really anyone who can advance in level and gains both observable spells and caster levels. (The existence of character class as a concept in and of itself may be notable.)

(3) Sorcerer levels, likewise, with their progressions - including the knowledge that they get higher-level spells later than you might expect given the efficacy of their lower-level spells.

(4) Stepped increases for Bonus Spells, giving insight into Intelligence, Wisdom, and (for Sorcerers/Bards) Charisma as definite stats.

(5) The Strength stat and at a minimum its Max Lift progression

(6) The fact that an increase through a known spell (Bull's Strength) is (for example) +4 steps on the table they worked out in (5).

(7) The fundamental workings of the universe are quantifiable in 5' increments, and that this number has a metaphysical importance.

All of these would be directly observable to a character if rules of game = rules of physics. :smallbiggrin:

(Hit points and saving throws do require large repetition, but they're far from outside the realm of experimentation. For example, if a Wizard invents a 0-level spell "Make a Will save or say, 'I FAILED MY WILL SAVE'" then with enough castings, the distribution becomes pretty clear.

-O

The Grue
2012-11-30, 06:59 PM
This is a magnificent thread and everyone in it should be proud. I salute you.

I'm going to suggest that my party wizard start such experiments to delve into the fundamental laws of the universe.

EDIT: Regarding number 2 above, they may be able to infer the existence of a fourth characteristic, by noticing that the saving throws of any two Paladins of a given level vary by a hard value that is tied to neither Wisdom nor Intelligence nor Strength. Charisma might be to them what the graviton is to our scientists; they know it has to exist, but they don't know much beyond that.

Likewise, they might observe another mystery variable affecting the number of extra spells a Sorcerer gets over and above his base progression and the save DCs of his spells, which they might mistake for Intelligence given Sorcerers are arcane casters like Wizards. This would inevitably result in a Wizard with an apparent Int score of 16 being demonstrably more intelligent than a Sorcerer with an apparent Int score of 18 (perhaps through some sort of standardized problem-solving test), and yet the Sorcerer's spells are stronger by all observations. Conclusion: The characteristic that governs Sorcerer spells is another mystery variable like Charisma, but there would be no direct evidence linking it to the variable that affects Paladin throws.

Unless they got their hands on a Paladin/Sorcerer multiclass and were able to separate and independently account for level-dependant variables from each class on the overall character scores.

Also if any of their test subjects have ranks in Open Lock they would learn that, in the absence of any threats or time constraints, an individual can always open locks that he otherwise would fail to open 50% of the time - in effect, they have discovered the Take 10 rule, and with that knowledge could catalogue the DCs of various common lock types and determine the number of effective ranks a person has in Open Lock.

obryn
2012-11-30, 07:16 PM
Also if any of their test subjects have ranks in Open Lock they could work out the approximate DCs of various common lock types. They would also learn that, given adequate time and in the absence of any threats or time constraints, an individual can always open locks that he otherwise would fail to open 50% of the time - in effect, they have discovered the Take 10 rule.
Hah! Perfect! Another good one.

-O

Sith_Happens
2012-11-30, 09:29 PM
This is extremely handwavable with "they're Wizards; they smart enough to get around all the problems for knowing this stuff!" as an ether variable. But I do have to bring up something: a lot of this would require massive sample sizes to determine anything. The poor shmuck who gets hit with Charm Person 1000 times resists it, what, 213 times? Uh-oh, there goes that granularity for Int and Wis mods; it's not a clean 5% multiple; better hit him with another 4000 and wait why is he crying.

You have to be able to quantify that saving throws work in steps of 5% before you get determine Int mods and Wis mods, but even then, there's a lot of confounding variables that could throw out otherwise accurate hypotheses. Don't even get me started on circumstance modifiers throwing off all the data.

Pretty sure you could get around at least some of this with a sufficiently rigorous knowledge of statistics.

obryn
2012-11-30, 09:42 PM
Pretty sure you could get around at least some of this with a sufficiently rigorous knowledge of statistics.
Yep, and let's face it - if these guys have sufficient knowledge to put reality in an armlock and force it to cry for mercy using only the powers of their brains, basic probability is child's play. :smallsmile:

-O

ReaderAt2046
2012-11-30, 10:31 PM
In Morithias's Grimoire of The Rift Campaign, they've figured out the level-up mechanic in-universe (though admittedly that one's not quite a normal example. The premise is that the DM of a group of gamers stumbled across a real spellbook and accidentally did something that caused us to wake up inside the campaign we were starting.)

valadil
2012-11-30, 10:50 PM
I'm with you until #4. It takes a huge leap of faith to assume that all walls and blocks of wood take the same amount of damage to destroy. I don't se why scientifically minded wizards would make that assumption.

NichG
2012-11-30, 11:07 PM
One slight complication with using large blocks of material - objects do not heal. So while a 5ft block of wood has such and such a number of maxhp that is always the same, any damage that wood block has suffered in its entire history as an object will subtract from that.

Combine with the fact that a gaussian distribution and a 10d6 damage distribution look really similar, and that you aren't actually getting the damage distribution, you're getting the time-to-x-hp-damage distribution (which means you may be doing several 10d6 blasts in a row) means you're even closer to gaussian. So I think the wizards would likely figure out the central limit theorem from this before figuring out discrete damage and health.

The clerics get Cure Minor Wounds though, which gives you discrete damage quite nicely.

nedz
2012-11-30, 11:36 PM
Well, in 3E, Wizards have access to skills such as Knowledge(Arcana) and Spellcraft which abstract all of this. In 1E and 2E these were handwaved.

In no version of the game, AFAIK, do Wizards have access to skills such as Knowledge(Mathematics), Knowledge(Scientific Method) or Statscraft.

Even in 3E Sorcerers get to handwave knowledge of all of this, since you don't actually need Knowledge(Arcana) or Spellcraft to cast spells competently; which of course means knowing level dependant things like range.

Doug Lampert
2012-11-30, 11:41 PM
I remember a random little thought experiment I read somewhere as the basis for this, but wanted to see how far down the rabbit hole we could go. I'm personally very comfortable with games where the rules are not the world's physics, and instead represent kind of a narrative layer on top of the fiction...

...But in higher-sim games, this is not the way of things. And, if the laws of physics are reflected in the rules of the game, I started thinking about wizards. This is intended kind of tongue-in-cheek.

Okay. So there's some wizards of varying levels in a wizard's tower somewhere. They are indubitably intelligent - smarter than we are - so they start experimenting with the laws of the universe.

(1) They know that their members can prepare X, Y, Z spells of I, II, III levels, and that these are always distinct quantities in a regular progression. They have at this point figured out the spell chart.

(2) The ranges and areas of effect of their spells increase in distinct, quantized measurements - usually 5' or 10' each* - and that this increase corresponds with the number of spells prepared.

(3) These gains only come in specific units. At this point, these Wizards have figured out Levels as a fundamental feature of the universe, and can even engineer out their specific levels through use of (for example) spell ranges.

(4) By blasting damaging spells at uniform targets of specific kind - like walls and blocks of wood - they can determine the percent of the time the item is blown up. By letting Wizards of different levels do this, they can further chart the efficacy - the block of wood is destroyed X% of the time by a Fireball spell by a wizard of Y level. At this point, they can figure out Hit Points as a fundamental feature of objects.

(4a) If they're particularly unethical, they can figure it out about goblins or kobolds, too.

(5) By the same token, they can determine that the probability of destroying targets is shaped in a curve best represented by Xd6, where X is their Level.

(6) With repeated uses of spells like Charm Person on each other, they can determine (a) saving throws, (b) Wizards' Will save progressions, (c) the caster's Intelligence bonuses, and (d) the targets' Wisdom bonuses.

(7) By doing this against (for example) town guards, they can further work out non-Wizards' Will Save progressions and Wisdom scores.

(8) The Wizards can get people to lift heavy things. They notice the maximum amounts their subjects can lift are, in turn, quantized into distinct units of measurement instead of smooth. By casting buffing spells, they can work out the progression and notice that it matches at every step. They have just worked out possibly as much as the entire 3-18 or 3-22 scale for Strength and can refer to it by a number.


Okay. So at this point, these Wizards can speak about Levels, Saving Throws, Wisdom Bonuses, Strength, and Hit Points. What else can they do? Can they - from the spell list in the PHB - figure out the entire rules of the game in which they are characters?

-O

* As an aside, "five feet" is a fundamental measurement of the universe, bound into its metaphysical laws.

Inflict and Cure Minor Wounds allows them to realize that HP are quantized and what the size is more easily than what you suggest. That's FAR better than using inanimate objects to figure out that HP are quantized.

The spell Trap the Soul SPECIFICALLY states that the value of a component needed for a particular target can be researched, the cost is 1000 GP/HD, so they can find ANY creature's HD.

You can't make items if you don't have the XP. Wizards have scribe scroll at level 1. It costs such a character 1 XP per level 1 spell, and 0.5 XP per level 0 spell, round down total costs for the scroll, but IIRC there's a minimum of 1 XP burried somewhere in the rules. They can figure out that XP is quantized. Since a character can delay advancement to craft they can probably figure out the XP table.

Note that the XP table might be too difficult due to how rare leveling is and characters being reluctant do delay it and the possible complication of Level Adjustment, but that XP exists and is quantized is relatively trivial. Same for HP given cure and inflict minor, the existance, quantization, and that there is SOME relation to level and HD will be figured out, but the size of a HD may escape them unless they're clever with Con boosters and experiments.

Int boosters will be vital in figuring out the bonus spell table and which spells are bonus and which from class levels.

obryn
2012-12-01, 01:08 AM
Inflict and Cure Minor Wounds allows them to realize that HP are quantized and what the size is more easily than what you suggest. That's FAR better than using inanimate objects to figure out that HP are quantized.
That's true! It would certainly give that insight about living creatures faster - especially when you have a 5th-level Cleric and a 1st-Level Cleric both doing it. :smallsmile:

I was going with the idea that inanimate objects (1) put up less of a fight, and (2) have standardized HPs and Hardness ratings based purely on their physical makeup.

(I'm not worried about those objects being damaged before; there's always Mending and the like.)

-O

obryn
2012-12-01, 01:20 AM
Well, in 3E, Wizards have access to skills such as Knowledge(Arcana) and Spellcraft which abstract all of this. In 1E and 2E these were handwaved.

In no version of the game, AFAIK, do Wizards have access to skills such as Knowledge(Mathematics), Knowledge(Scientific Method) or Statscraft.

Even in 3E Sorcerers get to handwave knowledge of all of this, since you don't actually need Knowledge(Arcana) or Spellcraft to cast spells competently; which of course means knowing level dependant things like range.
In that case, they would be able to reach the remarkable insight that not a one among them is able to do math no matter how hard they hit the books. :smallwink:

But honestly - in a setting where magic operates in an exceptionally orderly fashion, much of this follows more or less immediately. With 16+ Intelligence, I think we can credit Wizards with being perfectly capable of logic, reason, and simple math. :smallbiggrin:

-O

The Grue
2012-12-01, 02:04 AM
I'm with you until #4. It takes a huge leap of faith to assume that all walls and blocks of wood take the same amount of damage to destroy. I don't se why scientifically minded wizards would make that assumption.

They might not know directly the hardness of wood or how many HP it has per inch, but they could certainly discover the relationship between an object's thickness and how many fireballs it takes to destroy. If they know that the power of a given wizard's fireball varies within a range between x and x(6) where x is the wizard's level, they can find approximate values for those things through repeated experimentation and observation.

endoperez
2012-12-01, 04:41 AM
The wizards wouldn't want to blast random chunks of wood or stone, but homogenous chunks of wood or stone or something. Wall of Ice would be level 4, Wall of Stone and Fabricate level 5.

What is the least random way of dealing damage, and would the wizards come across it in a normal way? For example, if there's a Cantrip that deals exactly 1 point of damage, and a wizard decides to use that for testing since he can spam that more than other spells, it shouldn't take very long to figure out some damage rules.

Clerics' Inflict Minor Wounds is negated by a saving throw and can't be used on an object.


They know that spells can be resisted. They also know that you can fail your saving throw voluntarily. If they know both of those things, and they want to test Daze, a harmless 0-level spell, they'll notice it doesn't work on creatures with more than 4 HD/levels. Like a Wizard who knows a third-level spell.

Spell durations would be another easy way of measuring one's level. Ghost Sound is 1 round/level, which gives them "round" as a measurement of time.

The Grue
2012-12-01, 04:48 AM
Actually, least random way of dealing damage is to Maximize a damage-dealing spell.

TuggyNE
2012-12-01, 05:30 AM
Actually, least random way of dealing damage is to Maximize a damage-dealing spell.

Maximize a cantrip.

PetterTomBos
2012-12-01, 07:46 AM
I don't think they would call it lvl.s, at least not at first. They would find some really funny unit to measure it in, like:

Every wizard has a fireballian number, this is the range (in feet) he can fling a fireball, without any metamagics attached to it. This number is usually related to other caracteristics of his spells, like the damage of a shocking grasp, the number of spells he can carry in his head, and so on. There seem to be a linear relationship, yet some deviations are known to occur [Gorukan/Fligian "On the existance and relations of the spell-adder"].

This is fun :smallbiggrin: Way funnier than exam-reading!

The Grue
2012-12-01, 07:59 AM
Maximize a cantrip.

I bet this is the first time in D&D history someone has suggested that.

Jay R
2012-12-01, 06:55 PM
All wizards do this automatically, as proven by the fact that your wizard already knows the range of her spells at sixth level, even before she casts those spells at sixth level.

headwarpage
2012-12-01, 07:34 PM
Awesome thread. I think that, if wizards could figure out all the casting stats, and maybe Strength as well, they would be able to infer the existence of Dexterity and Constitution. Reason being, once they've figured out the nature of the quantifiable stats, it should be fairly easy to figure out the effect of the stat-boosting spells. So then they've got four stat-boosting spells that add equally to known stats. Since they have two more stat-boosting spells, I suspect that they would posit that there were two more stats.

So, what kind of experiments would be necessary to figure out the nature and effect of these stats, which I assume they would dub "grace" and "endurance?"

Randomguy
2012-12-01, 08:44 PM
Well, they could always find a bunch of volunteers of the same level (which they would have to pay a lot) and hit them with maximized cantrips until they fall over, thus determining their HP. Then heal them back up again, hit them with Bears endurance and repeat the experiment, and see how many more it takes. That would determine the effects of Constitution.

They can also work out the falling damage rules by dropping things onto other things.

obryn
2012-12-01, 08:56 PM
Well, they could always find a bunch of volunteers of the same level (which they would have to pay a lot) and hit them with maximized cantrips until they fall over, thus determining their HP. Then heal them back up again, hit them with Bears endurance and repeat the experiment, and see how many more it takes. That would determine the effects of Constitution.

They can also work out the falling damage rules by dropping things onto other things.

Very nice!

headwarpage
2012-12-01, 11:30 PM
Well, they could always find a bunch of volunteers of the same level (which they would have to pay a lot) and hit them with maximized cantrips until they fall over, thus determining their HP. Then heal them back up again, hit them with Bears endurance and repeat the experiment, and see how many more it takes. That would determine the effects of Constitution.

They can also work out the falling damage rules by dropping things onto other things.

I think that would work, but how would they know their "volunteers" were all of the same level? It's easy with wizards, but what's the observable difference between a level 1 commoner and a level 2 commoner? And how would they observe that HP increase with level, anyway? I don't think we've figured out a way to measure levels in non-spellcasters yet, and I doubt they'd be eager to experiment on themselves.

Also, you could skip maximizing by researching a cantrip that does a minimal amount of (exactly 1) damage every time. Or by finding a cleric to cast inflict minor wounds.

endoperez
2012-12-02, 03:35 AM
Sleep puts 4 HD of creatures into sleep. They can probably experiment with that, and figure out "normal" HD values, but I don't think they'd have an easy way of telling how many HD a certain creature has. Some spells let them know that the target either resisted or is above a certain threshold, but that's it.

tyckspoon
2012-12-02, 04:24 AM
It's easy with wizards, but what's the observable difference between a level 1 commoner and a level 2 commoner?


BAB is probably the most significant and amenable-to-measurement difference, since *every* level 2 Commoner will have better BAB than *every* level 1 Commoner; the 2 significant problems I can think of are figuring out that 'ability to hit stuff' is *also* a fundamental quantized number of your world (distinct from Strength and Dexterity) and that it does not let you pin down an exact level on its own- by BAB, a Commoner 3 appears the same as a Commoner 2 or even a Commoner 1/Expert 1, but each will have different HD and HP.

Edit: Although if the Wizards are using attack-roll using spells for their experiments (Maximized Acid Splash/Ray of Frost?) they might come across BAB on the way- at every level where your spells get more powerful but you do not gain access to a new tier of spells, your casting gets more accurate. If they think to test it, they will find that this also holds true for other weapons both melee and ranged, regardless of your skill (proficiencies) or natural talents with said weapons (Strength/Dex mods.) Examination of Clerics and sufficiently leveled Paladins/Rangers could reveal the existence of the 3/4 and 1/1 BAB progressions as well.


Sleep puts 4 HD of creatures into sleep. They can probably experiment with that, and figure out "normal" HD values, but I don't think they'd have an easy way of telling how many HD a certain creature has. Some spells let them know that the target either resisted or is above a certain threshold, but that's it.

If you permit spell research for this purpose, you could create spells specifically to explore this kind of thing.. make a series of Daze-like spells, for example, that only affect creatures of up to 1/2/3... HD/Levels. It's harder if you have to work with only existing printed spells, but there are probably a few decent 'tools' to be found somewhere.

TuggyNE
2012-12-02, 05:41 AM
but I don't think they'd have an easy way of telling how many HD a certain creature has.

I don't know about easy, but there is a RAW way to do it, as already mentioned: the research needed to find the right size of gem for trap the soul will tell you precisely how many HD a creature has. Whether they'd think to use that at first I don't know, since it's not directly connected, but it is a discrete value that can be observed.

The Grue
2012-12-02, 08:48 AM
Truenamers also have an implicit understanding of HD, since an individual's truename becomes more difficult to say the more HD it has.

Razanir
2012-12-02, 01:33 PM
Scenario: City of Guildopolis. The wizards' and sorcerers' guilds are working together in these experiments. The temple (clerics and paladins) are offering help in case of mishaps. And the town guard is offering themselves as test subjects.

Experiment One: Different members of the guard can run at different speeds. Measure speed, varying armor, encumbrance and race.
Observations: Some races are inherently faster. Heavier armor slows you down. Different people can carry different amounts of gear.
New laws: 5-foot rule, base speed, encumbrance, strength

Experiment Two: How long can you run?
New laws: "Endurance"

Experiment Three: We called it strength. Does this also affect hitting stuff? Watch the guard trainees practicing fighting.
Observations: Some people are harder to hit than others. Different armor makes you easier or harder to hit
New laws: Armor and shield bonuses. "Dodge"

Experiment Four: Expand to archery and bring in more experienced guard members
Observations: More experienced members have an easier time hitting people when everything else is the same. Dodge seems to affect archery like strength does with swordfighting
New laws: Skill
Adapted laws: Dodge is renamed grace

Summary so far:
Strength = Str - 10 (They used the average as a baseline)
Grace = Dex mod (No way to distinguish Dex 10 and 11)
Endurance = Con
Skill = BAB (Only know of 1/1)
Armor and shield bonuses
Distances measured in 1 step = 5 ft
Times measured in 1 tick = 6 sec
Base speeds
"Endurance factor" = Run feat

The Grue
2012-12-02, 03:12 PM
You lost me at "sorcerer's guild". Trying to organize a bunch of sorcerers into a guild hierarchy would be like herding cats. Cats that can hurl lightning bolts and fireballs on a whim.

Razanir
2012-12-02, 03:59 PM
You lost me at "sorcerer's guild". Trying to organize a bunch of sorcerers into a guild hierarchy would be like herding cats. Cats that can hurl lightning bolts and fireballs on a whim.

Okay, so maybe not a guild, per se, but they certainly have some sort of exclusive club, right?

The Grue
2012-12-02, 04:31 PM
Probably a magic-wielder's version of Fight Club.

Razanir
2012-12-02, 05:19 PM
Point is, these sorcerers are the reason the wizards discovered levels. Spells known only had one variable it varied with– how experienced of sorcerers they are. They then realized .5 * magic skill = fighting skill, and from there extrapolated caster levels for themselves

BootStrapTommy
2012-12-02, 06:13 PM
This would be the case, I guess. That is until the supreme deity of all deities under whom even the the combined armies of all creation could not prevail, that Nameless One known only as the Dungeon Master, decides that it is not the case. In which case it would not be so. Why? Because God doesn't like wizards.

Erik Vale
2012-12-02, 07:53 PM
Q: Is the first wizard to start doing this named after a famous Scientist?
Q: Why hasn't the god of Knowledge already done this in his spare time?
Q: What does he do when other people start doing this, does he grant the first person to Demigod status and then reveal all of this making the game into a OOC game except characters don't know they have characters controlling them?
Q: At what point do they discover PC's vs Non-Pc's? (Resulting in Mass Suicide or intense Discrimination)
Q: How do they quantify the Alignment Axis?
Q: What alignment would the Wizard be that started this, Chaos for starting something new, Or Lawful for Quantifying? Evil for testing such henious things/Reveal lifes purposelessness? Good for letting everyones abilities? Nuetral because it was out of boredom?

obryn
2012-12-02, 07:59 PM
This is awesome, guys. You're better at this than I am. :smallsmile:

-O

Sith_Happens
2012-12-02, 08:20 PM
Truenamers also have an implicit understanding of HD, since an individual's truename becomes more difficult to say the more HD it has.

Problem: Recruiting Truenamers for such research requires someone to think that they're useful for anything.:smalltongue:

Morithias
2012-12-02, 10:53 PM
This would be the case, I guess. That is until the supreme deity of all deities under whom even the the combined armies of all creation could not prevail, that Nameless One known only as the Dungeon Master, decides that it is not the case. In which case it would not be so. Why? Because God doesn't like wizards.

Heh. The funny thing is that's the exact in character reason I used in my old campaign setting for variant rules.

Basically in that setting there was a creator god that was me (the concept of the setting was "how would you design the afterlife/world if you were the creator).

So in character, using variant rules became "the creator is screwing with the laws of reality".

The Glyphstone
2012-12-02, 11:15 PM
Q: Is the first wizard to start doing this named after a famous Scientist?
Q: Why hasn't the god of Knowledge already done this in his spare time?
Q: What does he do when other people start doing this, does he grant the first person to Demigod status and then reveal all of this making the game into a OOC game except characters don't know they have characters controlling them?
Q: At what point do they discover PC's vs Non-Pc's? (Resulting in Mass Suicide or intense Discrimination)
Q: How do they quantify the Alignment Axis?
Q: What alignment would the Wizard be that started this, Chaos for starting something new, Or Lawful for Quantifying? Evil for testing such henious things/Reveal lifes purposelessness? Good for letting everyones abilities? Nuetral because it was out of boredom?

The god of Knowledge doesn't necessarily always share all his knowledge. He might know all of this, but since it doesn't affect him in any way, he's content to just sit on it until someone asks.

BootStrapTommy
2012-12-02, 11:20 PM
Heh. The funny thing is that's the exact in character reason I used in my old campaign setting for variant rules.

Basically in that setting there was a creator god that was me (the concept of the setting was "how would you design the afterlife/world if you were the creator).

So in character, using variant rules became "the creator is screwing with the laws of reality".

Ultimately all previous attempts at working out the laws of the D&D universe have resulted in their inevitable change or the quick death of culprit. The Dungeon Master is an jealous, angry god. And she doesn't like nosy wizards.

Only the God of Knowledge knows, and he keeps his mouth shut out of fear, lest a half-tarasque version of Pun-Pun with a Phase template materialize out of nowhere with several hundred divine ranks to teach him a lesson or two.

Razanir
2012-12-03, 07:19 PM
Well the wizards have been hard at work, and are closer to discovering levels. Before I continue, I'm just throwing it out there that Guildopolis runs in Pathfinder. Anyway, this time the sorcerers helped.

Study One: Clerics, wizards and sorcerers all agree that some spells are easier to cast than others.
New laws: Spell difficulty = Spell level + 1 (Levels 1-10 not 0-9)

Study Two: All the sorcerers know the same numbers of spells.
New laws: Magical skill = caster level. The older version of skill (Full BAB) is renamed fighting skill.

Aftermath of study two: Magical skill * .5 = fighting skill. By performing tests for fighting skill on themselves, the wizards extrapolated their own magical skill.
New laws: Formula for magical skill. Note that it gets an incorrect answer for clerics (and druids)!

Study Three: Even if they have enough magic skill to cast a spell of a certain difficulty, not all sorcerers can cast the spells. Wizards and clerics agree with this. Even if they understand how to cast some spells, doesn't mean they can.
New laws: Magic aptitude = Int/Wis/Cha - 9 (Note that they haven't distinguished the three yet)

Summary:
Spell Difficulty = Level + 1
Magical skill = (1/2 BAB) * 2 (sometimes +1)
Magic aptitude = Casting ability - 9

Also, how interested would people be if I moved these updates into a thread of their own and posted every few days?

Morithias
2012-12-03, 08:19 PM
Ultimately all previous attempts at working out the laws of the D&D universe have resulted in their inevitable change or the quick death of culprit. The Dungeon Master is an jealous, angry god. And she doesn't like nosy wizards.

Only the God of Knowledge knows, and he keeps his mouth shut out of fear, lest a half-tarasque version of Pun-Pun with a Phase template materialize out of nowhere with several hundred divine ranks to teach him a lesson or two.

Actually the laws were VERY well known and documented. To the point where the people knew "If you try to design an epic spell, the goddess of Magic needs to look it over first". And if you plane shifted to the heavens there was a giant library with literally every rule alteration EVER MADE.

That's right. Imagine you start playing 1st edition D&D, and then everytime an errata, new book, new edition, or hell, HOUSE RULE, was made, it was recorded and carefully placed in record.

And somewhere in the library is the latest edition, abandoned by the creator after deciding he put too much work into the current world to rewrite the laws again.

(Yes the creator is literally me in the setting, the setting is VERY meta)

Kazyan
2012-12-03, 08:56 PM
Eventually, Wizards with Dimensional Reach (the reserve feat) note that the effect can be very easily quantified, but instead of multiplying the units by the spell difficulty, the units are multiplied by the spell difficulty minus one. Same thing for Dimensional Jaunt.

Transmuters with Transmutable Memory (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm) also note that a simple additive formula doesn't quite work with spell difficulty, but with spell difficulty minus one, it checks out.

Erik Vale
2012-12-03, 09:29 PM
Also, how interested would people be if I moved these updates into a thread of their own and posted every few days?

Very.


Actually the laws were VERY well known and documented. To the point where the people knew "If you try to design an epic spell, the goddess of Magic needs to look it over first". And if you plane shifted to the heavens there was a giant library with literally every rule alteration EVER MADE.

That's right. Imagine you start playing 1st edition D&D, and then everytime an errata, new book, new edition, or hell, HOUSE RULE, was made, it was recorded and carefully placed in record.

And somewhere in the library is the latest edition, abandoned by the creator after deciding he put too much work into the current world to rewrite the laws again.

(Yes the creator is literally me in the setting, the setting is VERY meta)


I would love to play in this setting. Please run a game in this one.

Sith_Happens
2012-12-03, 09:42 PM
Actually the laws were VERY well known and documented. To the point where the people knew "If you try to design an epic spell, the goddess of Magic needs to look it over first". And if you plane shifted to the heavens there was a giant library with literally every rule alteration EVER MADE.

That's right. Imagine you start playing 1st edition D&D, and then everytime an errata, new book, new edition, or hell, HOUSE RULE, was made, it was recorded and carefully placed in record.

And somewhere in the library is the latest edition, abandoned by the creator after deciding he put too much work into the current world to rewrite the laws again.

(Yes the creator is literally me in the setting, the setting is VERY meta)

Perchance, is this the same setting where you can buy major artifacts from Recette (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recettear:_An_Item_Shop%27s_Tale), and where one of your players once got his rear handed to him by the goddess of swordsmanship after boasting too much in her favorite vacation spot? And if so, I don't suppose you've ever written or posted something approaching a setting document for it, have you? Because you should.

Emperor Tippy
2012-12-03, 09:59 PM
Detect Thoughts (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/detectThoughts.htm) makes it easy to find out peoples Int scores.

Morithias
2012-12-03, 10:19 PM
Perchance, is this the same setting where you can buy major artifacts from Recette (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recettear:_An_Item_Shop%27s_Tale), and where one of your players once got his rear handed to him by the goddess of swordsmanship after boasting too much in her favorite vacation spot? And if so, I don't suppose you've ever written or posted something approaching a setting document for it, have you? Because you should.

I have a setting document. However it is highly unfinished. I only ever ran 2 campaigns in the setting. There are only 8 gods outlined, and most of it revolves around the total reworking of the planes into a world where there is no "ultimate evil" and the only true evil is for lack of a better term, circumstance.

But yes, it is the same setting. Or at least was, it got too hard to DM. Turns out having the ability to plan a setting and the ability to DM a setting are two different things, it got brutally complex to come up with villains to fight, and when the group stopped meeting, the setting crashed and burned with no players. At that point I abandoned World 1.

Of course the World series still exists. There is only four real rules to the "world" series.

1. It must use the D&D source books
2. Design the setting how you would design it if you were god. Assume you are the overdeity and you want to make a new world for your people to live on.
3. Free will exists. The only power the creator has is the ability to change the laws of physics (aka house rules) however the house rules must always be fair , if a blackguard and a paladin are fighting with longswords, you can't make the paladin's longsword do 1d20 damage, without making EVERY longsword do 1d20 damage.
4. The creator cannot change the 4 core rules.

What my setting ended up as, what a world with a heavy planar bureaucracy where the nine hells file, the abyss was a prison, and heaven was...well...heaven. It was also a world where hell was not forever, no matter what your crime you would eventually be released after you found redemption.

Ultimately it was an idealistic setting, and an interesting thought experiment, but failed as a storytelling medium. Good concept, bad execution.

So the setting has been abandoned never to be used again. I've moved to stealing maps from videogames and labelling them. It's easier, and many of them are better than the map I had.

Kelb_Panthera
2012-12-03, 10:56 PM
Truenamers also have an implicit understanding of HD, since an individual's truename becomes more difficult to say the more HD it has.

Unfortunately, at least for this thought experiment, truenaming DC's scale with CR not HD.

However, I believe the truename function of the words of creation feat uses a similar formula that -is- based on HD.

Razanir
2012-12-04, 12:39 AM
Very.

It's up. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=263374)

Sith_Happens
2012-12-04, 02:04 PM
Stuff

I feel like you might have fun bringing World 1 over to the World-Building sub-forum and enlisting the Playground's help in fleshing it out fully for other groups to run.

Morithias
2012-12-04, 04:27 PM
I feel like you might have fun bringing World 1 over to the World-Building sub-forum and enlisting the Playground's help in fleshing it out fully for other groups to run.

That's not how the "world" system works. Every DM runs their own World. Since the whole point of the campaign concept is "how would you design the cosmos if you were god".

At least that was my intention. The point of it was suppose to be an experiment in philosophy. For example, if you got 500 D&D players together and they all honestly created a world, what kind of patterns would emerge? What if you got 500 non-D&D players who just were storytellers? Is there a pattern based on what kind of other hobbies and media exist in the creators?

So yeah.

Eric Tolle
2012-12-05, 12:37 AM
By studying shadows, they can infer the source of light in the sky, even though it's too far way to see*. In addition, by studying how the shadows change, they can infer the trajectory of the light source, and correlate it's shifting position with the seasons. :smalltongue:

*(based on the size modifiers vs. distance modifiers)


Likewise, through experimentation, they can probably infer the existence of hit dice as the more powerful a creature becomes, the harder it is to identify.

Sith_Happens
2012-12-05, 02:17 AM
That's not how the "world" system works. Every DM runs their own World. Since the whole point of the campaign concept is "how would you design the cosmos if you were god".

At least that was my intention. The point of it was suppose to be an experiment in philosophy. For example, if you got 500 D&D players together and they all honestly created a world, what kind of patterns would emerge? What if you got 500 non-D&D players who just were storytellers? Is there a pattern based on what kind of other hobbies and media exist in the creators?

So yeah.

Nothing says that you can't a World stand on its own though. In fact, I'd imagine that that premise is how many world-building projects get started anyways.

Morithias
2012-12-05, 02:49 AM
Nothing says that you can't a World stand on its own though. In fact, I'd imagine that that premise is how many world-building projects get started anyways.

Yeah, but getting help on it means I've broken what it was meant to be. I suppose I could look it up and post it...but I'm not sure...it kinda sucked.

Sith_Happens
2012-12-05, 05:06 AM
Yeah, but getting help on it means I've broken what it was meant to be. I suppose I could look it up and post it...but I'm not sure...it kinda sucked.

You have a very strange definition of "sucked," because every tidbit you posted about it anywhere in the forum made it sound more and more awesome to me (and probably most other people).

Morithias
2012-12-05, 05:36 AM
You have a very strange definition of "sucked," because every tidbit you posted about it anywhere in the forum made it sound more and more awesome to me (and probably most other people).

You're kidding! Nothing about that setting was original or in anyway high quality. I guess I could post it...

Socratov
2012-12-05, 06:24 AM
by crossreferencing the fighting ability of clerics and cruids and their casting ability they discover a 1/1 fighting skill that delays every 4 levels. they call it 3/4 fighting skill.

By factoring in for a rogue's grace (dex mod) they discover rogues have the same level of fighting skill.

by using the take 10 rule (earlier discovered) they determine skillmodifiers.

by applying rogues of different levels (thanks to calculating by fighting skill), specifically trained for a certain skill, but the same grace, to tasks and letting make use of the take 10 law. they now discover the influence of skilltraining and the steady increase per level.

Now the wizards visit a rogueschool and measure the height of skills and amount of experience and training. they discover the offset of skillranks and the maximum level of skillranks of level +3.

they also see the offest increase in knowledge of anatomy and skill in reaching for those places while the rogues are training for combat. they call it Sneak Attack level.

but wait, there is more. After incorporating the help of truenamers the wizards find out that some persons with certain professions do not meet the number of levels the truenamer detects in the truename. After digging through the acenstry of those persons it is revealed that those people had to spend several levels growing and developing their natural levels, not linked to a profession, but to a certain ancestry. (template/racial HD). the wizards call them Ancestral levels. they sound kind of cool now.

walking aroudn the town through the temple district they see two churches waging war slinging Holy words and blasfemies around. Even though everybody has different effects, some people unaffected by range, seem to have similar effects. The wizards directly note the effects. they see people of certain groups and philosophical perspectives handle different effects (they identify peopel who are orderly and a bunch if struggling idiots, and they see people who are kind and benevolent and people who are selfish and cruel).

this sparks an idea. they quickly conduct interviews with people pending their philosofical beliefs until they have either a plus, a minus or a neutral state on both the benevolence and cruelty axis (some of the wizards study math and diagrams as a hobby when the stars aren't very visible (profession astrology has math as subset)) and the order scale. Then they interview the clerics to detect where they stands on matters. the let the clerics cast their philosophy dependant spell and judging by the reactions they establish a grid on which severity of reactions is readable. the cleric states that the enemies of his god shall suffer while the people who are of the true faith shal come to no harm. the wizards conclude that no such thing is the matter and that the harm (or measure of harm) is dependant on how philosophically different a person thinks in relation to the cleric. then the wizards confirm the experiment with the circle of pretection from X and conclude that there are most certainly laws of the multiverse that dictate law, evil, chaos and good. by running some experiments they soon find out what philosophical outlook on the good-evil and law-chaos scales. (they jsut found out alignment on a mechanical level). but this is not the end. they now try to find out if posessing a certain philosophical outlook prevents a person from using certain spells. they try to and discover that if you are good you can't cast evil spells (and vice versa) and if you are lawful you can't cast chaotic spells (and vice versa). they see that neutral persons can cast all of them.

Razanir
2012-12-05, 08:40 AM
But wait, that assumes experience level is directly observable or at least measurable

Socratov
2012-12-05, 09:53 AM
But wait, that assumes experience level is directly observable or at least measurable

well, not directly, but you map out the levels you see and note the amount of experience one has aquiered in his lifetime (not exp points, just whether someone has seen much/done much/experienced the world much. Aka experience.