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Seharvepernfan
2012-11-30, 06:30 PM
I'm about to run a 1st level adventure for some friends, it's basically a dungeon crawl set in an old abandoned crumbling manor about a mile from a village. It's ina farms'n'woods area. I want the manor to be a "porous dungeon", meaning that it's walls/floors/ceilings can be moved through with effort, and the players can proceed directly to the third floor via a grappling hook or climb check if they want to (just examples). I also want it to be an environmental danger in its own right, with the walls/floors/ceilings collapsing from too much weight or damage.

The things I need help with are:
-what kinds of rooms does a manor/mansion have? (3 floors+attic/basement)
-what kind of DC's and HP should the walls/floors/ceilings have?
-how would I determine whether or not a wall/floor/ceiling collapses?
-should the walls themselves be load-bearing? or only the support-beams?

Now, I know the answer to these questions is basically "whatever I want", but I want it to be mostly realistic and I'm trying to be impartial. It doesn't need to be easy just because the players are first level. I want Knowledge (arch & eng) to be applicable. Some of the collapsing bits are knowingly-planned traps.

Any advice?

Zahhak
2012-11-30, 06:59 PM
should the walls themselves be load-bearing? or only the support-beams?

For this one, the wall would not support the weight, but the frame inside would support some of the weight, with main beams every so many feet supporting the weight. To make it objective, just say something like "main support beams every X many feet from the north wall"

Fuzzy McCoy
2012-12-01, 12:01 AM
Some room ideas:

Library
Kitchen
Dining room
Master bedroom
Guest/kid bedrooms
Parlor (a place for secluded conversation/entertainment)
Office and/or a lab
Entryway - make it quite elaborate
Trophy room
A separate bedroom for the mistress/wife of the house
Bathrooms
A powder room (guest bathroom, and generally smaller & more accessible)
Storage areas

I would say that the walls shouldn't be collapsing, unless sabotaged, and while parts of the ceiling/floor might give way, as a whole they should be pretty stable. Consider most modern homes: unless there's a hole in the floor, a second story can support 10/15 people and a bunch of books/furniture. If you want the ceiling/floor collapsing, think of a reason why the support beams would be weakened/failing.

Windows and doors, on the other hand, are great targets for collapse.

Anxe
2012-12-01, 02:27 AM
Servants quarters.
Indoor activity room (that ricochet game or fencing).
A smaller library.
Observatory room.
Art room.
Trophy room.
Crypt in the lower basement.
Separate barracks building where the guards stay.
Small shrine to ancestors and patron gods.
Vault where the gold is kept.

Walls are typically load bearing as well in large buildings. For HP and DCs you should use the ones listed in the player's handbook. So if the place is falling down that'd be:
Doors Hardness=5 HP=10 Break DC=13
Walls Hardness=5 HP=20 Break DC=15
Wall could be a bit bigger, but whatever.

Collapses should probably be treated as traps. Or you can just DM fiat it.

Now monsters... Goblins? Kobolds? Undead? Orcs? Firebreathing pigeons?

Hanuman
2012-12-01, 03:52 AM
I'm about to run a 1st level adventure for some friends, it's basically a dungeon crawl set in an old abandoned crumbling manor about a mile from a village. It's ina farms'n'woods area. I want the manor to be a "porous dungeon", meaning that it's walls/floors/ceilings can be moved through with effort, and the players can proceed directly to the third floor via a grappling hook or climb check if they want to (just examples). I also want it to be an environmental danger in its own right, with the walls/floors/ceilings collapsing from too much weight or damage.

The things I need help with are:
-what kinds of rooms does a manor/mansion have? (3 floors+attic/basement)
-what kind of DC's and HP should the walls/floors/ceilings have?
-how would I determine whether or not a wall/floor/ceiling collapses?
-should the walls themselves be load-bearing? or only the support-beams?

Now, I know the answer to these questions is basically "whatever I want", but I want it to be mostly realistic and I'm trying to be impartial. It doesn't need to be easy just because the players are first level. I want Knowledge (arch & eng) to be applicable. Some of the collapsing bits are knowingly-planned traps.

Any advice?

http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj83/unknownseeker/house.jpg
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=172358


-what kinds of rooms does a manor/mansion have?
Lots, depends on what culture for the specifics.


-what kind of DC's and HP should the walls/floors/ceilings have?
Depends what they are made of, I suggest wood.
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD3e:Hazards_%26_Objects


-how would I determine whether or not a wall/floor/ceiling collapses? My dad worked in lumbar for the last 20 years or so, his old position when I was growing up was determining load-bearing for support beams.

http://www.awc.org/pdf/WSDD/wsdd.pdf


-should the walls themselves be load-bearing? or only the support-beams?
Your choice, if it's well designed it won't need the walls, but make sure for it to have flaws in it, that way a knowledge engineering check can be useful.

Gildedragon
2012-12-01, 04:05 AM
You may want to look into this
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm#fallingObjects
to figure out if characters smash through more than one floor, it's useful to also figure out if they can blast a way through more than one floor by dropping bowling balls.

Treating the dangerous terrain as pit traps is a good idea, establish a weight under which they'll open, approx 50-200lb from very weak to sturdy floors.

Living walls and secret passageways are a staple. Dust clouds are useful vision obstructing "trap likes" that make splitting the party more... sneaky.

Seharvepernfan
2012-12-01, 07:20 AM
For this one, the wall would not support the weight, but the frame inside would support some of the weight, with main beams every so many feet supporting the weight. To make it objective, just say something like "main support beams every X many feet from the north wall"

Okay, good advice. That would work.


Some room ideas:

Library
Kitchen
Dining room
Master bedroom
Guest/kid bedrooms
Parlor (a place for secluded conversation/entertainment)
Office and/or a lab
Entryway - make it quite elaborate
Trophy room
A separate bedroom for the mistress/wife of the house
Bathrooms
A powder room (guest bathroom, and generally smaller & more accessible)
Storage areas

I would say that the walls shouldn't be collapsing, unless sabotaged, and while parts of the ceiling/floor might give way, as a whole they should be pretty stable. Consider most modern homes: unless there's a hole in the floor, a second story can support 10/15 people and a bunch of books/furniture. If you want the ceiling/floor collapsing, think of a reason why the support beams would be weakened/failing.

Windows and doors, on the other hand, are great targets for collapse.

Well, the place is old, and is probably rotted due to rain (and fog & snow), from leaks if not from roof/window holes.

Good room ideas.


Servants quarters.
Indoor activity room (that ricochet game or fencing).
A smaller library.
Observatory room.
Art room.
Trophy room.
Crypt in the lower basement.
Separate barracks building where the guards stay.
Small shrine to ancestors and patron gods.
Vault where the gold is kept.

Walls are typically load bearing as well in large buildings. For HP and DCs you should use the ones listed in the player's handbook. So if the place is falling down that'd be:
Doors Hardness=5 HP=10 Break DC=13
Walls Hardness=5 HP=20 Break DC=15
Wall could be a bit bigger, but whatever.

Collapses should probably be treated as traps. Or you can just DM fiat it.

Now monsters... Goblins? Kobolds? Undead? Orcs? Firebreathing pigeons?

Hmmm, I never noticed wood walls in the DMG. Good idea with the collapse = trap, I hadn't considered that...what would be the trigger?

Good room ideas as well.

Goblins and kobolds, but mostly goblins. The kobolds have hired the goblins to guard the house, while they are holed up in the basements' secret dungeon. There is an aranea that lives in the attic whom the goblins have allied with. There is a non-lethal child ghost that leads people to the secret basement so that her corpse can be recovered and buried outside. A bunch of rats (a few dires and possibly a swarm), spiders in and near the attic, a handful of wolves just outside (and in the goblins' makeshift warren), a swarm of hallucigenic oozes in the lowest bit of the dungeon, a captured gnome alchemist, some bandits (who don't know about the goblins/kobolds/everything else) who show up to keep the players from finding their hidden treasure, a bunch of traps...and that's it, so far. I will strongly consider firebreathing pidgeons.


http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj83/unknownseeker/house.jpg
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=172358


Lots, depends on what culture for the specifics.


Depends what they are made of, I suggest wood.
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD3e:Hazards_%26_Objects

My dad worked in lumbar for the last 20 years or so, his old position when I was growing up was determining load-bearing for support beams.

http://www.awc.org/pdf/WSDD/wsdd.pdf


Your choice, if it's well designed it won't need the walls, but make sure for it to have flaws in it, that way a knowledge engineering check can be useful.

Heh, I don't think I want the manor to have a CR of its own...

The culture is hard for me to pin down, mostly because I wouldn't know how to answer this question. The owner was a knight from a knights'n'lords fuedal/medieval kingdom, and the manor is in a rural land of free farming villages - they are near each other. The free land is mostly un-urban with no cities and therefore no history of large-building building (they as a people/land were fostered by a realm of elves). The knights'n'lords kingdom is basically just like europe/france/germany/wherever during that time. The knights' bodyguard was a dwarf who had skill in stonemasonry (he lead the construction of the basement(s)/dungeon). Does that help?

Yes, they are wood, or wood and lath, or something along those lines - they were built for residential purposes only, not to hold off attacks or anything.

Thanks for that pdf, I'll look through it soon. So far it looks promising.

The knowedge checks don't need to come from it being poorly constructed, they can be from it being weak and about to collapse. I'm not leaning in either direction just yet concerning the quality of the walls/construction, but I'm mulling your advice over at the moment.


You may want to look into this
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm#fallingObjects
to figure out if characters smash through more than one floor, it's useful to also figure out if they can blast a way through more than one floor by dropping bowling balls.

Treating the dangerous terrain as pit traps is a good idea, establish a weight under which they'll open, approx 50-200lb from very weak to sturdy floors.

Living walls and secret passageways are a staple. Dust clouds are useful vision obstructing "trap likes" that make splitting the party more... sneaky.

Good ideas. Noted and being considered.

I appreciate the help, folks.

Anxe
2012-12-01, 12:15 PM
Well, wooden walls aren't actually in the objects section. I just felt they should be a little tougher than doors. I assumed the walls would be 2 inches, but after looking it up, they should be 6 inches. A 6 inch wall would be:
Hardness=5 HP=60 Break DC=25 (Between strong wooden door and iron door)

That's assuming that the wall is still in awesome condition and doesn't have other stress on it. You might want to use a lower number if you want walls collapsing to be relevant.