You want what?! Bargaining with Outsiders

[AntiTrust]

I think we can all agree that the best kinds of bargains are ones that don't end with the creature wanting you dead by the conclusion of it. However, the planar binding and gate spells text only alludes to bribes and agreements and never gives you any idea of what makes a good offering.

Outsiders will all want different things depending on various plots and traits, but perhaps we could list some general ideas about what would make a good bribe.

As is appropriate for such lists I'll start it.

Fire Elementals: Fire consumes, of that there's no debate. As such I imagine a fire elemental would enjoy being offered something it could consume. Offerings like new, rare, or magical works of art would all make good choices.

[rockdeworld]

"Actually, I prefer pine wood to the Mona Lisa. The taste lasts longer." :smalltongue:

You can always ask what they want. OTOH, this could serve as a good DM reference.

The thing to remember is that outsiders are basically born knowing they can be summoned at any time to help someone out with something. It isn't a surprise for them, it's a culture. They're most likely to have accepted it, to know what they're commonly called to help out for (which means extraordinary requests might be more interesting and thus require a lower price), and how to best deal with the problem: just deal with it and return home asap. It would be the odd outsider who was completely enraged with being called into a Planar Binding circle or Gated in.

Presumably this means they all have a general idea of exactly what they can get for a given service, and don't want to waste time bargaining, unless the person looks dumb enough or is persuasive enough to try it. Fighting a single battle is worth nothing, because they have to do it all the time. Granting wishes is similarly done all the time, but presumably has some value because it grants something that the creature can't get on its own. A noble djinn may want 5000gp worth of art. An efreeti may want 5000gp worth of gems. Something they can trade or use on their home plane.

Creatures summoned with Summon Monster/Nature's Ally/Gate do services for free while the spell duration lasts, and that's pretty much all they're used for. Contracts with Gated creatures would probably have an extraordinary price. Planar Allies or Planar Bindings, however, are almost always used for wishes (in my experience).

[Darth Stabber]

Evil outsiders, especially baatezu, will want something that will assure the caller's damnation. With devils, they get promotions based on souls dragged to baator, and devils love promotions. The other evil outsiders probably operate on a similar system, though not as rigid and defined. Any annoyance felt at being ripped away from the middle of what you were doing is going to be wisked away at the realization that you can bring another soul under the sway of your plane. And if the soul in question is already firmly evil, they will try to swing their law/chaos in line with their home plane. If that's already assured they will likely move to make some portion of the world more likely to spawn like aligned souls, since they will probably get some kind of residuals off that. More tangible payments are likely called for in cases where further corruption is unlikely.

Good outsiders will likely have similar, but opposite requests. They will push the summoner toward good alignment, and push the world toward that end, since they also gain power by those means. They will push for aiding the poor, sick, and/or otherwise needy since those are good acts that will make the world better, and possibly trigger some form positive spiritual development in the murder hobo asking their aid.

Outsiders not aligned with the outerplanes, and elementals, don't have to worry about the reaping of souls, they have drives and motives determined by their nature and their individual ideosycracies.

[Arcanist]

I once had a discussion (most reasonable and well thought out discussion I've ever experienced on this forum) with Kelb. He actually managed to convince me that Devil's are the WORST thing you could bind because they have a plan... ALWAYS and that just horrified me to my boots. Apparently it was agreed that with Efreeti you don't exactly have much to worry about repercussions since Effreeti are constantly being trapped by Sha'ir, being binded, and being called away on mercantile business so nobody would really question if the Efreeti was called away for a brief moment (say... 18 seconds?). All you need is 2 carefully worded Wishes and the multiverse is bended over every which way.

Another method is simply uttering Pazuzu three times and gaining 3 wishes from the Demon Lord himself, which can be performed at minimum level 1 as a commoner with an intelligence score of 3. Needless to say the same words apply.

Not much to do with Bargaining with Outsiders, but a cleaver way to dominate the world with the power of shenanigans.

[Rubik]

The best thing to give any outsider you bind to you is a Spectral Hand'd Bestow Curse and a bunch of Enervations to the face, followed by Dominate Monster until you can command it to fail its Charisma check and give you whatever you want.

[NichG]

Although not generally true, I think a good rule of thumb is that evil outsiders have personal-scale desires and good outsiders have social-scale desires. What I mean by that is, a devil will want to personally benefit from helping you - this could be by taking your soul, or just by acquiring some form of power it can use in its own plays. In a setting where outsiders can't go to the material without being summoned, they may want some plan of theirs advanced on the material.

A good outsider will more likely want you to do something that broadly (but not necessarily intensely) improves the world, at least according to its world-view. Found a church to a goodly deity, help 100 homeless people, whatever. Or even just quest to wipe out this particular cult that is going to cause problems soon.

So because of this its paradoxically harder for adventurers to come to a satisfactory deal with evil creatures. Not because they're being asked to do evil acts, but because an evil outsider will want something that increases their personal power in exchange for increasing the power of the adventurer (assuming that 'you get my soul' or 'kill a nun' is right out). And that basically means the adventurer parting with personal power, which they will be more loathe to do compared to a quest of the form 'go wipe out bad guys and take their stuff'.

So logically, evil outsiders will have recognized this and will basically collect opportunities where they can become more powerful and their summoners can become more powerful at the same time. For instance 'carry my gem to this magical site, and you and I can gain its power' (where its a planar touchstone and the gem is something allowing the outsider to attune as if they were there).

[Rubik]

Hmm. If you Called an Evil creature (demon, devil, yugoloth, whatever) and forced it to wear (and fail its save against) a helm of opposite alignment, would that make things easier? I wonder how many would do what you wanted just because you "saved" them from being Evil.

[NichG]

Honestly situations in which you summon and then force control are a lot less interesting, because in that case there really is no need for a 'deal' to occur at all. You have control of the outsider, so things are basically done and it doesn't really matter what it wants anymore.

[Rubik]

Honestly situations in which you summon and then force control are a lot less interesting awesome, because in that case there really is no need for a 'deal' to occur at all. You have control of the outsider, so things are basically done and it doesn't really matter what it wants anymore.FTFY.

I don't care what the outsider wants. I get what I want, and screw the outsider. Not literally.

[NichG]

FTFY.

I don't care what the outsider wants. I get what I want, and screw the outsider. Not literally.

There's nothing really to discuss about this scenario though. Its a foregone conclusion and has nothing to do with the personality, goals, etc of the outsider and so has nothing really to do with the original subject of this thread.

I guess though it does say that in a higher op world where this is a common thing, the first thing any outsider tries to get their hands on is an item proffering Immunity to Mind-Affecting. And/or the feat that lets you make people think you're Dominated when you really aren't.

[Telok]

FTFY.

I don't care what the outsider wants. I get what I want, and screw the outsider. Not literally.

Succubi.

Seriously though, I don't see why there isn't a thriving trade in Dimensional Anchor necklaces in the planes. Personal immunity from being summoned is probably worth it for those who can afford them. Plus there really ought to be a Summon Hero spell that outsider casters can use.

[Rubik]

Succubi.Well, they ARE shapechangers, so those of us without much appreciation for female demons could make use of them too, I suppose.

Still, I've never been much for hermaphrodites, either.

[Zale]

Another method is simply uttering Pazuzu three times and gaining 3 wishes from the Demon Lord himself, which can be performed at minimum level 1 as a commoner with an intelligence score of 3. Needless to say the same words apply.

Knowledge check to know that. :D

You could always appeal to the Outsider's nature.

Offer a Demon a chance to sow chaos and destroy lives without overt danger to themselves..

That has a certain.. appeal.

[AntiTrust]

FTFY.

I don't care what the outsider wants. I get what I want, and screw the outsider. Not literally.

I see you point, but as was pointed out, not what I was looking for as it falls under the not wanting you dead by the end of it. The idea for the thread was for the forums to come up with good offers for outsiders based on what little the books mention of their personality. Use what we know about outsiders to tailor items or services that would entice the outsider to participate in the spell without bad feelings afterwards.

Your opinion is appreciated of course, but it is not very constructive.

[The Redwolf]

Another method is simply uttering Pazuzu three times and gaining 3 wishes from the Demon Lord himself, which can be performed at minimum level 1 as a commoner with an intelligence score of 3. Needless to say the same words apply.


Alright, other than badly, how exactly does that work? Just by saying his name he'll show up to make a deal with you for three wishes? What does he normally ask for in return and why would he not just kill you for speaking his name and making him appear?

[Rubik]

I see you point, but as was pointed out, not what I was looking for as it falls under the not wanting you dead by the end of it. The idea for the thread was for the forums to come up with good offers for outsiders based on what little the books mention of their personality. Use what we know about outsiders to tailor items or services that would entice the outsider to participate in the spell without bad feelings afterwards.

Your opinion is appreciated of course, but it is not very constructive.Well, if you force the outsider to agree to not act against against you in any way, either directly or indirectly, there's not a whole lot it can do, even if it hates you. That's part of the bargain it makes, after all. The inevitables will go after it if it doesn't keep to its agreement, I'm sure, assuming the spell will even let it disobey.

Or you can kill it (or helmet of opposite alignment it, and yes, I used that as a verb).

If you're powerful enough of a mage to cast Planar Binding on your own, you're more than powerful enough to force the object of your spell to do as you want it to do without having to jump through the hoops the silly outsiders want you to. Why pay money when you can get the services for the cost of a few spell slots? Though I suppose each spell slot is worth its considerable weight in platinum, so you really are spending considerable resources to make it work.

[AntiTrust]

Well, if you force the outsider to agree to not act against against you in any way, either directly or indirectly, there's not a whole lot it can do, even if it hates you. That's part of the bargain it makes, after all. The inevitables will go after it if it doesn't keep to its agreement, I'm sure, assuming the spell will even let it disobey.

Or you can kill it (or helmet of opposite alignment it, and yes, I used that as a verb).

If you're powerful enough of a mage to cast Planar Binding on your own, you're more than powerful enough to force the object of your spell to do as you want it to do without having to jump through the hoops the silly outsiders want you to. Why pay money when you can get the services for the cost of a few spell slots? Though I suppose each spell slot is worth its considerable weight in platinum, so you really are spending considerable resources to make it work.

Obviously you don't get the point of the exercise. Sorry, but my last statement of "its appreciated, but not constructive" still stands.

[Rubik]

Obviously you don't get the point of the exercise. Sorry, but my last statement of "its appreciated, but not constructive" still stands.Fair enough, though if the player is even vaguely savvy and has a decent Int score in-game, it'll never come up, so neither player nor DM should ever have to worry about it.

Unless you're a sorcerer. In which case...

*shrug*

[AntiTrust]

Fair enough, though if the player is even vaguely savvy and has a decent Int score in-game, it'll never come up, so neither player nor DM should ever have to worry about it.

Unless you're a sorcerer. In which case...

*shrug*

I think we can bury the hatchet if you list something relevant to the discussion. I provided a fire elemental as an example and plenty of people have weighed in on Devils, Demons, and Angelic outsiders. How about you pick something not discussed and use your advanced knowledge of the game to provide an appropriate item for barter to gain their services?

[Rubik]

I think we can bury the hatchet if you list something relevant to the discussion. I provided a fire elemental as an example and plenty of people have weighed in on Devils, Demons, and Angelic outsiders. How about you pick something not discussed and use your advanced knowledge of the game to provide an appropriate item for barter to gain their services?Pull in an efreeti and offer it one of its Wishes if it'll grant you the other two in good faith -- and willingly comes back for additional Wishes each time it gets them if you offer it the same deal.

[AntiTrust]

It's essentially offering its own services to itself? You seem dead set on trying to get something for nothing. Excluding the Tippyverse I can't see many settings or DM's that would allow for an infinite wish loop. As such it does no good to list something like this out. I get the impression we're not speaking the same metaphorical language.

[Rubik]

It's essentially offering its own services to itself? You seem dead set on trying to get something for nothing. Excluding the Tippyverse I can't see many settings or DM's that would allow for an infinite wish loop. As such it does no good to list something like this out. I get the impression we're not speaking the same metaphorical language.An efreeti cannot grant Wishes to itself without a willing intermediary. It's getting more out of the deal than it would be otherwise, and the Caller acts as such. It's getting Wishes out of the deal as well, which are incredibly valuable.

Why would it say no? After all, you're not harming it; just the opposite, in fact. Unless it had a personal hatred of you or was rather dense, it'd be crazy to blow you off.

[Deophaun]

When it comes to demons and devils, it's going to come down to how subtle they are. If they're not subtle at all, they'll demand death, carnage, suffering, dark rituals, you name it, performed out in the open. This is stuff that heroic PCs will have a difficult time meeting, because the tasks will offend their nature. If you have a non-heroic party, this is probably the best option to throw at the PCs, as they are probably more concerned with the mechanics of how to get away with it than anything else.

If it's a subtle demon or devil, the requests are dangerously easy for good PCs to agree to. They'll be asked for something innocuous. "In this city is a red bricked building with green shutters that overlooks a fountain. A woman lives in this building. On the second day, just after the sun has touched the tips of the western mountains, bring her flowers." The PCs are likely to agree because hey, giving someone flowers isn't evil, right? But the twist is, the woman is married to an insanely jealous husband. A stranger giving his wife flowers is going to set him off, and she will be found dead the next day. The PCs are now responsible for that murder as surely as if they killed her themselves.

The PCs knowingly listened to a devil or demon, a being driven to commit evil acts and see them committed, a being that is likely to know of the sins and foibles of the mortals it seeks to corrupt, and willingly allowed that creature to dictate their actions. They should have known something like this was bound to happen. If you have a paladin that agreed to this sort of thing, he's going to fall, and everyone moves towards evil. If it's a demon, the murder alone could be payment enough. The devil, however, will be most pleased with the souls he has imperiled.

Again, if the party is not heroic, threats that point to eternal damnation might not be sufficiently costly. Plus, your average devil isn't going to be that interested in mortals that are prone to falling into their clutches by accident.

[Dayaz]

I once summoned a Xacarba in a rush and realized after i finished the final chant I had forgotten all my binding protections :D

Then I remembered I was favored by Azmodeus... and in a Mage School. So I bluffed it into believing Azmodeus both wanted the school dealt with and I was it's biggest fan, and that the school people thought Xacarba's were all jokes.

I then let it know I trusted it fully, and it let me teleport the f out of there :D

moral of the story: if you're going to play with demons and devils be a better liar than them

[Yuki Akuma]

Alright, other than badly, how exactly does that work? Just by saying his name he'll show up to make a deal with you for three wishes? What does he normally ask for in return and why would he not just kill you for speaking his name and making him appear?

Because that's what he does. It's his thing. If someone says his name properly three times in a row, he appears and grants wishes.

They always drag the wisher closer to damnation (unless they're a Paladin, in which case the first time's 'free'), but he'll always grant you wishes if you call him.

[The Redwolf]

Because that's what he does. It's his thing. If someone says his name properly three times in a row, he appears and grants wishes.

They always drag the wisher closer to damnation (unless they're a Paladin, in which case the first time's 'free'), but he'll always grant you wishes if you call him.

What do you mean by drag them closer to damnation? Is it like bargaining with him taints your soul, or he fulfills it in such a way that it corrupts you, how exactly does this work? I might honestly be able to make use of it some day, and it could be fun if I know the details. Alternatively, is there a book I can get details on it from?

[Yuki Akuma]

I think he grants wishes in such a way that it brings you closer to being evil, or something.

I think he's in one of the Fiendish Codices?

[The Redwolf]

I think he grants wishes in such a way that it brings you closer to being evil, or something.

I think he's in one of the Fiendish Codices?

Drat, I don't have any of them, time to Google him and see if the info is online somewhere.

[rockdeworld]

I provided a fire elemental as an example
It might be worth noting that a fire elemental isn't an outsider - it's an elemental :smalltongue:

Of course, it's still eligible to be called with Planar Binding.

[Darth Stabber]

Drat, I don't have any of them, time to Google him and see if the info is online somewhere.

The basic gist is that he starts subtly perverting wishes, then starts requesting you form a cult, and start doing all sorts of terrible things to get more wishes, and the suckers become more reliant on wishes to succeed at anything. Eventually once they are wholly dependent on him he'll snub their requests and watch as the whole cult unravels and destroys itself, it's members and probably lots of the surrounding area. Then a generation or so later someone down on their luck will find one of the old cult's tomes, and find out about the free wishes and not figure out the con, thus beginning the cycle anew. And this whole twisted cycle is very good at providing souls for pazuzu, more than paying for the energy outlay he invested in the wishes.

[Sith_Happens]

The basic gist is that he starts subtly perverting wishes, then starts requesting you form a cult, and start doing all sorts of terrible things to get more wishes, and the suckers become more reliant on wishes to succeed at anything. Eventually once they are wholly dependent on him he'll snub their requests and watch as the whole cult unravels and destroys itself, it's members and probably lots of the surrounding area. Then a generation or so later someone down on their luck will find one of the old cult's tomes, and find out about the free wishes and not figure out the con, thus beginning the cycle anew. And this whole twisted cycle is very good at providing souls for pazuzu, more than paying for the energy outlay he invested in the wishes.

Also, accepting a Wish from him automatically shifts your alignment one step toward Chaotic, or one step toward Evil if you're already Chaotic. For paladins this doesn't start until the second Wish, and if you're already Chaotic Evil then he won't give you a Wish at all.

[The Redwolf]

Interesting, so what would likely happen if you got wishes from him in an extreme situation, such as to save your party or whatnot, and then went to a cleric of your faith and got absolved or something such as that, like an atonement or whatever? Would that make you able to resist his corruption maybe? I'm making the assumption of a good character doing this.

[Darth Stabber]

Interesting, so what would likely happen if you got wishes from him in an extreme situation, such as to save your party or whatnot, and then went to a cleric of your faith and got absolved or something such as that, like an atonement or whatever? Would that make you able to resist his corruption maybe? I'm making the assumption of a good character doing this.

This wish enterprise is part of his business model, him granting you a wish is an investment, and he is going to take steps to protect that investment. The souls of the very pious are particularly tempting, due to the fact that you get a soul and the celestials are down a soul, effectively a two soul swing toward the darkside. However, like regular investments, higher returns usually come coupled with a higher risk. There are two ways to mitigate these risks, invest extra resources on ensuring the payout (further investment), or make lots of investments to reduce the impact of one particular deal not panning out (diversification). Pazuzu likely knows about how many of these high risk deals he can make over a period of time, how much effort he can afford to spend on insurance before it starts cutting in to profit, and what the actuarial odds of payout for any amount of additional investment. He makes enough of these deals to the point where he still profits if some go south (or is it north in this case?), and knows when to cut his losses.

If the priest's request is a small outlay of energy, let's say 1 soulpoint to use arbitrary numbers, and the priests damnation would give him 10 soulpoints (partially from the priest himself, partially from having a charismatic vessel driving others to damnation), as long as the odds of the damnation sticking are greater than 1/10, he's theoretically profitting (assuming he's making a lot of these types of deals). And even if the odds are 1/10 he breaks even, but the celestials lose. Assuming that he has any interest in the longterm goal of demonic assualt on the heavens, that's still a good deal. If he invests more effort, like sending a babau to slay the errant priest before his soul is purified, he collects less profit (since he had to pay for the initial damning {effectively a sunk cost}, send his babau to the material plane, and cutting off the potential for long term payout), but he does get something. Even if the priest gets absolution, pazuzu knows that in the back of the priests mind, if he ever gets into such dire straights again he has "help" on speed dial.

You can learn more in my new book "damnation economics, great profits from dark prophets", available at a non-good scroll emporium near you!

[The Redwolf]

I think my biggest wonder here is if a good character resorts to getting his help because there doesn't seem to be another option, such as the party or a bunch of innocents are going to die or something bad is going to happen that will just suck, if they ask him for help is there going to be any way for them to redeem themself or will they basically be permanently corrupted by dealing with him/he'll prevent attempts to get better?

[Darthteej]

I think the whole idea that you automatically have leverage over outsiders is way too tippyverse- the idea that the PCs are entitled to summon outsiders because they're PCs should not be how it works.

I really like how pathfinder handles it in Ultimate Magic(planar binding section found here (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/outsider-categories)). Binding outsiders is a risky bussiness, and the only people who can do it reliably are Clerics summoning outsiders of their own alignment for a good cause.

Most outsiders worth binding are extremely powerful and intelligent creatures who have their own motives. More to the point, they have a lot more important things to be doing than appealing to the whims of whatever snot nosed mortal summoned them into a prison. The fact that they get a saving throw implies that it's a not a pleasant experience: I'd rule as a DM that binded outsiders start off as Unfriendly at least.

That section provides list of bribes, which is cool, but that's just to sweeten the deal. When dealing with outsiders, PCs are the ones who are begetting their services. You should have to justify to say, an angel, that what you are doing promotes both law and good, otherwise she'll refuse to serve you and things will get nasty.

[Crinias]

Temptation (Su): If a creature utters the name “Pazuzu” three times in sucession, an unholy link between the speaker and Pazuzu is immediately established. For one minute, Pazuzu can use detect good, detect law, detect thoughts (DC 22) and tongues to examine the speaker, despite any distance (physical or planar) that might separate them. He always uses Sense Motive to try to determine whether the one who calls him is trying to entrap him.

If he wishes and is able, Pazuzu can use plane shift and greater teleport to travel to the speaker’s location with precise accuracy, as long as he does so before the minute is up. Once he arrives, Pazuzu asks the speaker why he called upon the Prince of the Lower Aerial Kingdoms. Pazuzu almost always agrees to provide aid, but if he does, the caller’s alignment shifts one step closer to chaotic. If the caller’s alignment is already chaotic, it instead shifts one step closer to evil. These shifts in alignment are considered voluntary. Pazuzu never provides aid to chaotic evil creatures and often punishes them for calling upon his aid rather than using the tools he has likely already granted the creature in question.

Pazuzu particularly enjoys corruption paladins and takes pains to ensure that the first time he helps a paladin, no evil comes as a result of his assistance, hoping to encourage the paladin to call on him again. Aid granted by Pazuzu is typically granted in the manner easiest for the demon prince to manifest, often in the form of his wish spell-like ability.


Lore: DC 25 Knowledge (religion) or Knowledge (the planes):

Speaking Pazuzu’s name three times in rapid sucession allows the demon to contact the speaker. Often, he offers the speaker aid.


He can also use Greater teleport at will, plane shift 3/day and wish 1/day.

I'm not entirely on the clear of how this works, though. If the change in alignment is voluntary, surely you could go back to your previous alignment? Or perhaps, in character, you don't feel compelled to go back. After all, your morals are a bit looser now, right? By admitting that you needed help from someone a lot stronger than yourself to solve one of yourproblems, you're breaking or stretching any moral codes you might have had before.

Also, I'm not entirely on the clear of how outsiders deal with the Material Plane. I think they're not allowed to enter it unless called? Can anyone clear this up for me?

[The Redwolf]

Alright, the knowledge check for it an everything, very nice, I might honestly be able to make use of this at some point now, and if all else fails maybe another party member can. Thank you.

[Darth Stabber]

Also, I'm not entirely on the clear of how outsiders deal with the Material Plane. I think they're not allowed to enter it unless called? Can anyone clear this up for me?

If an outsider has planeshift as an SLA, spellcasting, psionics, or magic items there isn't anything keeping them coming to the material plane. An open gate spell is open invitation for anything on the otherside to come across. Outsiders generally have pressing interests on their own planes (example: the blood war), and will only step sideways to deal with pressing threats to their machinations, or when dragged across via conjuration(summoning) and conjuration(calling) spells. The regular demons and devils lack planeshift as an sla, and most of them aren't also casters by default. Powerful good outsiders (planetars, solars, astra deva, trumpet archons, and ghele eladrin (not sure about guardinals)) have cleric casting, and planeshift is a 5th level cleric spells (7th level arcane and psionic), meaning that even if an infernal or abyssal army should become manifest on the material plane, the upper planes have the upper hand on material plane access. They lack the numbers of the deep end of the alignment pool, but they significantly better access.

[Yuki Akuma]

I think my biggest wonder here is if a good character resorts to getting his help because there doesn't seem to be another option, such as the party or a bunch of innocents are going to die or something bad is going to happen that will just suck, if they ask him for help is there going to be any way for them to redeem themself or will they basically be permanently corrupted by dealing with him/he'll prevent attempts to get better?

It's not really possible for alignment change to be permanent - get a Cleric of your old alignment to cast Atonement and you're fine.

You'll probably have to do a service for the church or the priest (hey look, an adventure hook!), but you can get absolved.

Pazuzu might give up on you if you keep doing this, though.

(Unless, of course, your actions to become purified still lead to enough chaos and destruction to profit/amuse him.)

[The Redwolf]

It's not really possible for alignment change to be permanent - get a Cleric of your old alignment to cast Atonement and you're fine.

You'll probably have to do a service for the church or the priest (hey look, an adventure hook!), but you can get absolved.

Pazuzu might give up on you if you keep doing this, though.

(Unless, of course, your actions to become purified still lead to enough chaos and destruction to profit/amuse him.)

Well the entire point of it would be that I only used his help because there was well and truly no other option, so I wouldn't care if he gave up on me, what I'd be worried about is if he then tried to get revenge for me essentially backstabbing him, which could make things worse than the original situation I had to use his help to get out of. I suppose that might be something that comes down to how the DM chooses to play it.

[Traab]

Well the entire point of it would be that I only used his help because there was well and truly no other option, so I wouldn't care if he gave up on me, what I'd be worried about is if he then tried to get revenge for me essentially backstabbing him, which could make things worse than the original situation I had to use his help to get out of. I suppose that might be something that comes down to how the DM chooses to play it.

You know, it strikes me as requiring meta knowledge to know to get an absolution from that first wish. The knowledge check doesnt say anything about the shift towards chaos/evil. So you cant, while playing rp, set the whole absolution loop up. You wouldnt really be aware of the fact that your faction just changed a bit. Also, if you DID intend to do that, pazuzu can apparently know you are planning to negate his influence, and that would make him less likely to bother showing up since he is able to read your freaking mind before arriving. Its kind of a catch 22. Yes if he reads your mind he might see a way to pervert your wish to grant some some giggles despite not getting your soul, but if not, he will just mentally flip you off and leave you to stand there with no response.

I suppose though, just the fact that you DID make a wish with a demon might be enough to convince the average decent being to realize they may have committed a sin they need to make up for. I honestly dunno.

[The Redwolf]

I thought the knowledge check gave the information in that quoted paragraph up there? Does it only let you know that he'll show up if you say his name? That's interesting if so, and I agree that I wouldn't be able to know in character, however the thought process would be more like you said at the end with wanting an atonement because he had to resort to getting a wish from a demon.

[tyckspoon]

That's interesting if so, and I agree that I wouldn't be able to know in character, however the thought process would be more like you said at the end with wanting an atonement because he had to resort to getting a wish from a demon.

Well... you may want to atone, but would you actually get an Atonement? That's a much more drastic measure, and remember (if you're starting from Lawful Good) you can actually go 2 Pazuzu interventions before it changes you on the Good-Evil axis; you might not think there actually is a problem until you stop being Good, at which point you possibly no longer care.

[Traab]

I thought the knowledge check gave the information in that quoted paragraph up there? Does it only let you know that he'll show up if you say his name? That's interesting if so, and I agree that I wouldn't be able to know in character, however the thought process would be more like you said at the end with wanting an atonement because he had to resort to getting a wish from a demon.

But even thats a bit iffy. I mean, a paladin or a cleric or some other holy class type might want to just as a matter of course. The rest of us would think, "Well, I didnt make a deal with him, he just granted a wish. As far as I can tell, my soul is safe."

And this was at the bottom of the post about the knowledge check


Lore: DC 25 Knowledge (religion) or Knowledge (the planes):

Speaking Pazuzu’s name three times in rapid sucession allows the demon to contact the speaker. Often, he offers the speaker aid.

All we know with that high of a roll is that he is a demon that often grants aid to those who ask. No mention of twisting the requests or wishes, (though it should be a no brainer) or of alignment shifts that happen automatically.

*EDIT* This might be a good time for those who like heavy role playing to shine. Someone with a high wisdom stat would be able to make that logical leap from the info given. The high int/low wis types would just see, "Demon, grants aid, no cost mentioned" and think, "Sweet! Free wish!" High wis would say, "He is a demon, there has to be a catch."

[The Redwolf]

Ah, I thought all of that was the info from the check, but that wisdom idea would be nice since my character has a wisdom of 29, and he would view this as despicable no matter what because he's consorting with a demon, and he's a very, very good character. If this was legitimately his only option then he might do it, but if so he'd be super conflicted and feel wrong about it afterward, hence wanting an atonement or at least forgiveness.

[Steward]

I think if it was genuinely a one-off type of thing, you would theoretically be safe from corruption. There is nothing about Pazuzu that says that you have to keep summoning him repeatedly. I think where he normally gets people is that they are unclear as to his true nature or become overly-reliant on him. The first time they summon him might be a genuinely dire emergency without any other hope of survival. The next few times might be serious but not to the point where you literally have to call upon the Prince of the Air (or whatever). After a while, you're summoning him to dispatch even moderately-challenging opponents and solve problems for you, all the while rationalizing all the things you're giving up to him in exchange for his help as netting out to something positive. If you start faltering, before you have time to think about what you've done to yourself, Pazuzu can engineer your demise in some form of accident and guarantee your damnation.

I also think that Pazuzu was generally designed to interact with NPCs. It would be hard for a player character to separate his or her knowledge of the Lower Planes as well as the "real world" mythology (Pazuzu is a real Syrian deity but he is more famously known to most people from the Exorcist movies) from the game. Even if I didn't know that Pazuzu was an archdemonD & D in , I would probably be wary of him just because he shares the name with that character -- in the same way that I would probably avoid a creature named "Gozer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghostbusters)". An NPC wouldn't possibly

[Sith_Happens]

I think if it was genuinely a one-off type of thing, you would theoretically be safe from corruption. There is nothing about Pazuzu that says that you have to keep summoning him repeatedly. I think where he normally gets people is that they are unclear as to his true nature or become overly-reliant on him. The first time they summon him might be a genuinely dire emergency without any other hope of survival. The next few times might be serious but not to the point where you literally have to call upon the Prince of the Air (or whatever). After a while, you're summoning him to dispatch even moderately-challenging opponents and solve problems for you, all the while rationalizing all the things you're giving up to him in exchange for his help as netting out to something positive.

Basically this. The ability is called "Temptation" for a reason. Sure, a devoutly Good character could reasonably get an Atonement for a theoretically-very-bad-but-with-no-significant-immediate-consequences action if they seriously believed they had no other choice. But then what happens the next time you're in a dire situation that only Pazuzu can get you out of?:smallamused:

[Arcanist]

Basically this. The ability is called "Temptation" for a reason. Sure, a devoutly Good character could reasonably get an Atonement for a theoretically-very-bad-but-with-no-significant-immediate-consequences action if they seriously believed they had no other choice. But then what happens the next time you're in a dire situation that only Pazuzu can get you out of?:smallamused:

Who the hell else are you going to rely on? A God that lets his worshipers die by the thousand without any action? :smallconfused:

If I learned anything today it's that we should be worshiping Demon Lords... since they, ya know, actually do stuff without any payment. Truly Pazzuzu is the most benevolent of all Outsiders.

[Dayaz]

... i just wish I could convince my rl dm to let me do this... too bad he's known me too long to do so.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Who the hell else are you going to rely on? A God that lets his worshipers die by the thousand without any action? :smallconfused:

If I learned anything today it's that we should be worshiping Demon Lords... since they, ya know, actually do stuff without any payment. Truly Pazzuzu is the most benevolent of all Outsiders.

I wonder if you'll still feel that way when vrocks are picking the bones of your shattered soul.

Demons and devils are more "giving" with their powers because it's a quick and proven method of tempting mortals into shifting to the appropriate alignment. It may also be an attempt at superior marketing since neither the demon princes nor the archdukes of hell can grant spells directly and their cults have to deal with gods from both ends of the alignment pool; moreso than clerics of actual evil deities since evil gods do sometimes form alliances while an alliance between a god and either demons or devils is virtually guaranteed to be a short-lived affair.

Deities of all stripes tend to only dole out power to those individuals that they can be dead-certain will further their interests; divine casters.

Also, planar ally can get you very similar results with good outsiders, albeit at a notably higher level and only with the aid of a divine caster.

[Arcanist]

I wonder if you'll still feel that way when vrocks are picking the bones of your shattered soul.

With just 1 Wish you can make it so that you can't die (See Dragonball Z) and Temptation specifically calls out that the Wishes get progressively more corrupted as you make them (if you're a Paladin from Exactly As Intend to Monkey's Paw status). So yeah, the Vrocks will go hungry tonight :smalltongue:


Demons and devils are more "giving" with their powers because it's a quick and proven method of tempting mortals into shifting to the appropriate alignment. Deities of all stripes tend to only dole out power to those individuals that they can be dead-certain will further their interests; divine casters.

Exactly, so by your argument Deities don't care about you unless you are walking around with a holy symbol turning undead. Demons and Devils are much better to have by your side then any other deity...My favorite argument for Worshiping Sertrous was the ability to select your own Domains and gaining 5 free bonus feats just because. Coupled with being Lawful Evil you gain 2 Wishes before you turn Chaotic Evil.

I challenge you to find a good aligned deity that can offer that much more compared to the two Demon Lords just mentioned.


Also, planar ally can get you very similar results with good outsiders, albeit at a notably higher level and only with the aid of a divine caster.

My point exactly. Deities are effectively just as evil as Demon Lords, if not worse since they are effectively forcing you to live in a world where a band of Orcs can just rampage into your home, kill your entire family, take all your belongings and venture back to there camp with your Mom and Sister like it was a good day for all.

EDIT: Wait... Are we still talking about Bargaining with Outsiders or Who we should be Clerics of? :smallconfused:

[Kelb_Panthera]

With just 1 Wish you can make it so that you can't die (See Dragonball Z) and Temptation specifically calls out that the Wishes get progressively more corrupted as you make them (if you're a Paladin from Exactly As Intend to Monkey's Paw status). So yeah, the Vrocks will go hungry tonight :smalltongue: Pazuzu =/= Shenron. The DBZ dragons all granted wishes that go -way- beyond the power of the wish spell. Far more importantly, why would Pazuzu grant you a wish that was guaranteed to prevent him from getting your soul in the end?




Exactly, so by your argument Deities don't care about you unless you are walking around with a holy symbol turning undead. Demons and Devils are much better to have by your side then any other deity...My favorite argument for Worshiping Sertrous was the ability to select your own Domains and gaining 5 free bonus feats just because. Coupled with being Lawful Evil you gain 2 Wishes before you turn Chaotic Evil. It's definitely not a matter of the fiends caring more about you than the gods. It's a matter of the gods being more cautious with whom they grant power. The gods can afford to be picky, they have large churches of the faithful, whereas demons and devils only have small-ish cults for the most part. The gods also have their stunning array of divine abilities to rely on, while the fiends have to rely on their own and their followers abilities to gather info and work towards their goals.

The good deities are also concerned with being sure the follower they grant power to will use that power responsibly, both to further their particular agenda and to improve the world on the whole.


I challenge you to find a good aligned deity that can offer that much more compared to the two Demon Lords just mentioned. Any god always has access to any of his followers through the remote sensing ability, not just his clerics but any of his followers. He can communicate with them at will via remote communication. Anyone anywhere can hold a conversation with their chosen deity if that deity deigns to respond. If the deity has -any- interest in making sure that follower does well, he can intervene on the spot in any of several possible ways depending on the specific deity.




My point exactly. Deities are effectively just as evil as Demon Lords, if not worse since they are effectively forcing you to live in a world where a band of Orcs can just rampage into your home, kill your entire family, take all your belongings and venture back to there camp with your Mom and Sister like it was a good day for all. The problem with this argument is that the scenario you've chosen for your example is exactly what all demons and CE deities want. LE gods and devils would prefer the orcs stay and enslave the villiage. There's an immense difference between wanting a thing and "allowing it to happen." The good deities don't allow these things to happen, they fail to stop them.


EDIT: Wait... Are we still talking about Bargaining with Outsiders or Who we should be Clerics of? :smallconfused:

A bit of both I think. Planar ally is a cleric spell that gets outsiders to bargain with, after all. What outsiders show up is rather more than a little dependent on your patron (or alignment if you don't have a patron).

[Arcanist]

Pazuzu =/= Shenron. The DBZ dragons all granted wishes that go -way- beyond the power of the wish spell. Far more importantly, why would Pazuzu grant you a wish that was guaranteed to prevent him from getting your soul in the end?


You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.)

You're right actually. Shenron =/= Pazuzu, because Pazuzu is slightly more reliable in that you can resurrect your friends as many times as you please. "You're not thinking 4th Dimensionally Marty!" There is just as many ways to claim a soul (my favorite being that you have to perform a particular service to Pazuzu once in a blue moon). I want to say that Pazuzu can't do that, but the exact text in temptation is "almost always" so there isn't really a 100% chance he'll say yes unless your a Lawful Good Paladin (where as he just can't resist).


It's definitely not a matter of the fiends caring more about you than the gods. It's a matter of the gods being more cautious with whom they grant power. The gods can afford to be picky, they have large churches of the faithful, whereas demons and devils only have small-ish cults for the most part. They also have their stunning array of divine abilities to rely on, while the fiends have to rely on their own and their followers abilities to gather info and work towards their goals.

The "faithful" are just pawns for the Deities. Unless this is FR they have no reason to actively help there followers. Hell, if Zeus really wanted to, he could pop on down and just walk through the city streets in his true form and nobody would tell him he's wrong, nobody would stop him and what is really worse is that nobody would stop worshiping him. Unfortunately WoTC didn't think anyone would ever figure that at some point they can over come all of there problems to the point where even the Celestial Paragons and the Fiendish Lords quake in there boots. Regardless of all this it does make a person wonder why the mention of certain Demon Lords and certain Devil's make God's and there worshipers cry in fear.


The good deities are also concerned with being sure the follower they grant power to will use that power responsibly, both to further their particular agenda and to improve the world on the whole.

Augh~ I'd rather not turn this into an alignment discussion~


Any god always has access to any of his followers through the remote sensing ability, not just his clerics but any of his followers. He can communicate with them at will via remote communication. Anyone anywhere can hold a conversation with their chosen deity if that deity deigns to respond. If the deity has -any- interest in making sure that follower does well, he can intervene on the spot in any of several possible ways depending on the specific deity.

And yet, they do not do this... Why? :smallconfused:


The problem with this argument is that the scenario you've chosen for your example is exactly what all demons and CE deities want. LE gods and devils would prefer the orcs stay and enslave the villiage. There's an immense difference between wanting a thing and "allowing it to happen." The good deities don't allow these things to happen, they fail to stop them.

Might be the fact that it is midnight, but what are you trying to get at here? If this is what you're stating here that "Good does not always triumph" then doesn't that mean that the All powerful super being is *gasp* not all powerful!? That's not much of an excuse when you're a Greater Deity. Could have given the Clerics a little heads up on the Orc raid to that local priest, but nope!


A bit of both I think. Planar ally is a cleric spell that gets outsiders to bargain with, after all. What outsiders show up is rather more than a little dependent on your patron (or alignment if you don't have a patron).

My Lord sends me a Pit Fiend/Marelith (or beared devils/Succubi), what does yours offer you? It just feels that when you're worshiping a Good Deity you are the kid at camp whose Mom sends him friken Carrots while everyone else gets Cookies. (Sorry, I'm just joking around here a little, If I'm sounding jerkish at this point I apologize).

and just like that my next character will be a Cleric of Malcanthet that only prepares Greater Planar Ally's so she can run the worlds greatest Brothel ever! :smallbiggrin:

[rockdeworld]

And yet, they do not do this... Why? :smallconfused:
Bad DMing and bad world-creation :smalltongue:


My Lord sends me a Pit Fiend/Marelith (or beared devils/Succubi), what does yours offer you?
A... Tulani? I was going to say "Solars!" before I realized you meant with Greater Planar Ally. Oh well :smallsigh:

[Kelb_Panthera]

You're right actually. Shenron =/= Pazuzu, because Pazuzu is slightly more reliable in that you can resurrect your friends as many times as you please. "You're not thinking 4th Dimensionally Marty!" There is just as many ways to claim a soul (my favorite being that you have to perform a particular service to Pazuzu once in a blue moon). I want to say that Pazuzu can't do that, but the exact text in temptation is "almost always" so there isn't really a 100% chance he'll say yes unless your a Lawful Good Paladin (where as he just can't resist). Claiming a service or services and claiming a soul are not the same thing. As for the greater effects clause in wish, it's right there on the tin; trying to get those effects is dangerous. There's also that fiddly little clause about the wish sometimes failing when you wish for effects beyond the safe-list. Genuine "I can not be killed ever" immortality is well outside the scope of the spell and even the game itself, seeing as literally nothing in the game has such an ability. Even gods can be slain.




The "faithful" are just pawns for the Deities. Unless this is FR they have no reason to actively help there followers. Hell, if Zeus really wanted to, he could pop on down and just walk through the city streets in his true form and nobody would tell him he's wrong, nobody would stop him and what is really worse is that nobody would stop worshiping him. Unfortunately WoTC didn't think anyone would ever figure that at some point they can over come all of there problems to the point where even the Celestial Paragons and the Fiendish Lords quake in there boots. Regardless of all this it does make a person wonder why the mention of certain Demon Lords and certain Devil's make God's and there worshipers cry in fear. What makes you think that the faithful are any less pawns to the fiends than the gods? The fact that the fiends sell themselves harder? Also, a god's power and rank are dependent on his number of worshipers. That's ample reason to care.

The gods don't walk the earth because they can be killed and if one god walks the earth what's to stop his enemy from doing the same? If Heironeous and Hextor both come to the material and do battle, the collateral damage would be utterly staggering. Leaving Hextor with little to rule with his iron fist or Heironeous with the guilt of all the lives he's destroyed. The gods stay in their godly realms for the most part for fear of mutual assured destruction. The occasional avatar or incognito foray into the mortal realm is done very subtly and quietly when it's done at all.




Augh~ I'd rather not turn this into an alignment discussion Unnavoidable. You can't talk about the motivations of fiends without talking about evil and you can't talk about the motivations of their opposite number, celestials and good deities, without talking about good. Alignment is baked right into any logical discussion about the outsiders native to the outer planes.




And yet, they do not do this... Why? :smallconfused: Sometimes they do. Bahamut is noted to regularly travel the material world in the guise of a doddering old wizard, subtly manipulating things toward his desired ends. As I said above, the gods have to be cautious when moving in the material to avoid having the gods that oppose them call shennanigans and the whole situation exploding into an "end of days" type scenario. I've been known to say that the more powerful a character is, the more likely he is to fall into the greatest trap of them all; politics. The gods are the epitome of this idea.




Might be the fact that it is midnight, but what are you trying to get at here? If this is what you're stating here that "Good does not always triumph" then doesn't that mean that the All powerful super being is *gasp* not all powerful!? That's not much of an excuse when you're a Greater Deity. Could have given the Clerics a little heads up on the Orc raid to that local priest, but nope! Gods explicitly are not all-powerful. Far from it. As for the gods not giving the priesthood a heads up, who says they don't? It's easily within their power and for at least a few it's usually in their interest. Why wouldn't they send at least some subtle omen? Fiction and mythology are rife with examples of the gods sending their mortal worshipers signs and omens, and ever so rarely a direct heads up, about coming misfortune. Why would the D&D gods be any different?




My Lord sends me a Pit Fiend/Marelith (or beared devils/Succubi), what does yours offer you? It just feels that when you're worshiping a Good Deity you are the kid at camp whose Mom sends him friken Carrots while everyone else gets Cookies. (Sorry, I'm just joking around here a little, If I'm sounding jerkish at this point I apologize). If you're talking about the effect of planar ally, then there are a number of celestials that are roughly equal in power and analogous in rank to mariliths and balors. If you're talking about them just sending someone of their own accord, what's to stop any deity, regardless of alignment, from doing the same?

You seem to be making the assumption that the fiends are dramatically more active in the world than the gods, when there's no reason to make such an assumption.


and just like that my next character will be a Cleric of Malcanthet that only prepares Greater Planar Ally's so she can run the worlds greatest Brothel ever! :smallbiggrin:

:smallamused: Could be fun.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not hating on evil. Evil characters and especially evil powers can be tons of fun, but there's no escaping the fact that, if you're a mortal, you have to be more than a little extraordinary to be regarded as anything better than a soul-shell petitioner (read; food or coin) in the making.

[Crinias]

I have to say that I kinda forgot to add the other Lore DC results when I posted the first one.

The DC 20 result tells you basic information about Pazuzu:

Pazuzu is the demon lord of the Lower Aerial Kingdoms, and is served by evil flying monsters, kenkus, and those who have been corrupted by his offers of aid.

Keep in mind here that even though that could be a dead giveaway that accepting his aid might be a bad idea, by definition you already know that he's a demon. That in itself should be a giveaway, in my opinion.

However, I would say that any Good person that knows this and still goes ahead with it might think that it's worth it, or that they might be able to twist their wish toward a good end, or that those who were corrupted were weak-willed or anything of the like. After all, many Evil individuals don't consider themselves as such. You simply don't think of it as evil. After all, you wouldn't be Good if you attempted to do something that's evil, right? And so on and so on.

It could also be a mistake made in editing or something, seeing as the DC 30 result says this:

Accepting Pazuzu's aid is a surefire way to ruin. He takes great delight in offering aid that seems helpful but in fact causes great evil.


It would be a bit counterproductive for the DC 30 result to tell you straight away when you can infer from the DC 20 result that asking for his aid can corrupt you, right?

I guess this is another matter of discussion. I would rule that you're only certain that it is a terrible idea to call upon him when you obtain the DC 30 result.

[Toliudar]

Hmm. I just realized that aasimars and tieflings would be valid targets for binding/planar ally spells cast somewhere other than the material plane. This might be a great plot hook to start a campaign. Anyone ever done this?

[Asheram]

Aid granted by Pazuzu is typically granted in the manner easiest for the demon prince to manifest, often in the form of his wish spell-like ability.


Would just like to highlight this. Aid =/= Free wishes

[Darth Stabber]

Where do people get the idea that D&D deities are omnipotent? They are incredibly powerful, incredibly smart, and have some knowledge of the future barred from lesser creatures, but they are still killable (difficult but doable), and there are still many things they cannot do. Look at fiendish codex II, it states quite explicitly that while there are many gods in baator, none of them have anything close to the power of Asmodeus (at least not in that realm), and Asmodeus is not a deity (at least probably not). Which frames the point that any sufficiently powerful outsider is indistinguishable from a deity. There are factors that make two distinct, but it illustrates just how limited the D&D gods are. Also note that in several settings, the current gods are NOT the ones that created the world, the worlds were usually created by deities that are either gone, or are now overdeities (and possibly they were even overdeities at the time). Overdeities might be omnipotent, but one of their defining characteristics is their level of detachment, making that power sort of moot for this discussion.

D&D deities fail to act in many scenarios because if one deity does so it will cause a cascade of others to become involved. Even the most active deities tend to work more behind the scenes. The non-deific outsiders tend toward greater activity on the material plane because they don't have all the advantages that deities have when it comes acting through pawns. Deities can easily interact with their followers, through clerics and portents. Regular outsiders have to jump through bigger hoops (or sometimes gates). They are likely to respond to planar ally like spells, because it gives them greater ability to affect their schemes upon the mortal realm, yes they have to bow to a mortal's request in order to do so, but that's the cost of doing business.

[Traab]

I have to say that I kinda forgot to add the other Lore DC results when I posted the first one.

The DC 20 result tells you basic information about Pazuzu:


Keep in mind here that even though that could be a dead giveaway that accepting his aid might be a bad idea, by definition you already know that he's a demon. That in itself should be a giveaway, in my opinion.

However, I would say that any Good person that knows this and still goes ahead with it might think that it's worth it, or that they might be able to twist their wish toward a good end, or that those who were corrupted were weak-willed or anything of the like. After all, many Evil individuals don't consider themselves as such. You simply don't think of it as evil. After all, you wouldn't be Good if you attempted to do something that's evil, right? And so on and so on.

It could also be a mistake made in editing or something, seeing as the DC 30 result says this:


It would be a bit counterproductive for the DC 30 result to tell you straight away when you can infer from the DC 20 result that asking for his aid can corrupt you, right?

I guess this is another matter of discussion. I would rule that you're only certain that it is a terrible idea to call upon him when you obtain the DC 30 result.

Keep in mind, those dc checks literally only tell you what the text says. Any inferences you may draw beyond that need to be justified as having the wisdom to make the logical leap. It says those who have been corrupted, that honestly suggests not everyone gets turned into evil by accepting a wish from him, just that its a danger. The dc 30 check flat out says, you WILL be corrupted if you get him to grant you wishes. Thats a way better bit of info than a warning of potential danger.

Also, someone mentioned the whole, "I would wish to never die, thus be safe" Yeah, in a game that has literal portals to hell, not being able to die probably wont help you for very long. Pretty sure pazuzu would have just as much fun tormenting an unkillable fool for all eternity as he would torturing the soul of one.

[Darth Stabber]

Also, someone mentioned the whole, "I would wish to never die, thus be safe" Yeah, in a game that has literal portals to hell, not being able to die probably wont help you for very long. Pretty sure pazuzu would have just as much fun tormenting an unkillable fool for all eternity as he would torturing the soul of one.

For some reason I am now thinking about Capt. Jack from Dr. Who/Torchwood.