Tiers and optimization level

[mucco]

Tier 1: Capable of doing absolutely everything, often better than classes that specialize in that thing. Often capable of solving encounters with a single mechanical ability and little thought from the player. Has world changing powers at high levels. These guys, if played well, can break a campaign and can be very hard to challenge without extreme DM fiat, especially if Tier 3s and below are in the party.

So, I'd like to talk about this. Suppose that in a campaign, the DM outright bans most of the tricks considered overly imbalanced or overpowered. Among which are Planar Binding/Ally, Gate, Polymorph line, Love's Pain, Shivering Touch, Craft Contingent Spell, Celerity. This is a very common situation. Also suppose that players are not allowed/do not employ tricks that are super strong like damage immunities or exploiting planes with different time traits. You know, a sane campaign.

Question: in this situation, do tiers (and especially T1) stay the same way? JaronK modeled the tiers around high-op builds which are rarely accepted. Take the three cases proposed by JaronK: dungeon with dragon, contacting a resistance leader, prepare for war. A wizard can probably be *effective* at all tasks, but can he beat the challenge with a single spell, provided my limitations are in place? Also, how does a Druid or Cleric fare? Can someone show me what a mid-OP Druid can do to locate a resistance leader that makes him so campaign-breaking that "extreme DM fiat" is required?

[nedz]

Yes.

T1 is not about game breaking powers, it is about flexibility and options — these still remain.

[Glimbur]

The problem with assuming house rules, even sensible and common ones, is that we are no longer all arguing from the same base assumptions.

A mid op druid could turn in to a bird, which should help finding a resistance leader. Charm Animal might be helpful, though animal intelligence is limited. The animal companion is a lot smarter, so it might help. Speak with Animals synergizes. Pass Without Trace is a little useful, depending how smart your enemies are. Druids also have Survival and a wisdom focus, so it's not absurd for them to take Track. Spot is a class skill, which might be helpful.

All of that assumes a resistance in the woods. What about a resistance in a city? Animals are still in the city, and I'm too lazy to look at the Urban druid but I suspect that would help. If you know the campaign is mainly cities, it's reasonable to take Urban druid (from Cityscape?).

All that is level 1 and 2 spells just from core. Throw in, say, spell compendium and options improve. The problem with Tier 1 is that even when spells work like they should they make things much easier. Knock, Invisibility, and even the lowly Fog Cloud can be situationally better than what an equal level rogue can do. And that's the spells exactly how they should be used, not rolling around with a planar bound party just because you can.

[The Glyphstone]

So, I'd like to talk about this. Suppose that in a campaign, the DM outright bans most of the tricks considered overly imbalanced or overpowered. Among which are Planar Binding/Ally, Gate, Polymorph line, Love's Pain, Shivering Touch, Craft Contingent Spell, Celerity. This is a very common situation. Also suppose that players are not allowed/do not employ tricks that are super strong like damage immunities or exploiting planes with different time traits. You know, a sane campaign.

Question: in this situation, do tiers (and especially T1) stay the same way? JaronK modeled the tiers around high-op builds which are rarely accepted. Take the three cases proposed by JaronK: dungeon with dragon, contacting a resistance leader, prepare for war. A wizard can probably be *effective* at all tasks, but can he beat the challenge with a single spell, provided my limitations are in place? Also, how does a Druid or Cleric fare? Can someone show me what a mid-OP Druid can do to locate a resistance leader that makes him so campaign-breaking that "extreme DM fiat" is required?

That's not strictly true...the Tiers are independent of optimization, they assume all classes are equally optimized within a given scenario.


Also note that with enough optimization, it's generally possible to go up a tier in terms of tier descriptions, and if played poorly you can easily drop a few tiers, but this is a general averaging, assuming that everyone in the party is playing with roughly the same skill and optimization level.

[Randomguy]

Remember the test posted along with the tier system:

Situation 1: A Black Dragon has been plaguing an area, and he lives in a trap filled cave. Deal with him.

Situation 2: You have been tasked by a nearby country with making contact with the leader of the underground slave resistance of an evil tyranical city state, and get him to trust you.

Situation 3: A huge army of Orcs is approaching the city, and should be here in a week or so. Help the city prepare for war.

A wizard or other Tier 1 would still be very effective at doing all of these things, even with restrictions. A fighter or monk would be much less effective.

[TuggyNE]

So, I'd like to talk about this. Suppose that in a campaign, the DM outright bans most of the tricks considered overly imbalanced or overpowered. Among which are Planar Binding/Ally, Gate, Polymorph line, Love's Pain, Shivering Touch, Craft Contingent Spell, Celerity. This is a very common situation. Also suppose that players are not allowed/do not employ tricks that are super strong like damage immunities or exploiting planes with different time traits. You know, a sane campaign.

There's a difference between cheese and overpoweredness that's showing up here. Something like love's pain tends to be used rather cheesily, and gate can be too, but most of the others are simply making reasonable in-character use of the perfectly obvious standard purpose for the spell. (Especially polymorph.)


Question: in this situation, do tiers (and especially T1) stay the same way? JaronK modeled the tiers around high-op builds which are rarely accepted. Take the three cases proposed by JaronK: dungeon with dragon, contacting a resistance leader, prepare for war. A wizard can probably be *effective* at all tasks, but can he beat the challenge with a single spell, provided my limitations are in place? Also, how does a Druid or Cleric fare? Can someone show me what a mid-OP Druid can do to locate a resistance leader that makes him so campaign-breaking that "extreme DM fiat" is required?

JaronK really did not design the tier system around high-op; arguably, it fits best at mid-op play. (Low- and nil-op tend to ignore many of the fairly simple implications of certain options in favor of only the ones explicitly spelled out, and high-op play tends to splat-dive enough to patch nearly any class's weaknesses to some degree, not to mention the shift toward higher-op enemies that are often immune to anything but straight damage.)

That said, if you ban or rewrite all the spells that are overpowered/have overpowered uses, of course a Wizard (or Cleric, or Druid, or Archivist, or even Artificer) will no longer be T1. That's the extreme DM fiat. Do you know how many spells that is? No, really, do you know how many spells you need to ban or rewrite? There are several thousand published spells, you'd need to check all of them and rewrite probably several hundred at the least. As far as I know, no one has ever finished that project.

Essentially, the problem is that after you've finished banning teleport, rewriting summon monster X, banning Summon Elemental reserve feat, banning shivering touch, and banning summon undead X, there's still probably half a dozen more ways I haven't thought of for a wizard to clobber the trap-filled black dragon cave with unusual ease (disintegrate, anyone?). And so on, and so forth. Arguably, that's actually the purpose of all spells in existence in the first place: they're supposed to solve problems, and that's why they're limited in use compared to at-will abilities like swinging a sword. (Of course, use-limited super-effective abilities don't actually balance properly with unlimited-use narrowly-effective abilities.)

[mucco]

You guys probably miss my point. T1s are crazy powerful because they have many extremely strong abilities. T2s are powerful because they have some of these abilities. T3s, they don't have more than maybe one of two of them. But once you take away the clearly crazy options, which JaronK includes, what remains?

Glyphstone: JaronK says his tier system is independent of optimization as long as everyone optimizes the same. This is totally wrong. An unoptimized Wizard 5 will be extremely useless, with just Magic Missile, Flaming Sphere and Lightning Bolt prepared (I've seen a couple). Compare to a Warblade 5, equally not optimized. They are *not* T1 and T3. They are T4 and T3, and a bad T4 too. Don't bring to the table the argument "he will just prepare different spells next day": it wouldn't be low-OP then. When characters are high-OP, conversely, the system stands.

Glimbur went close to what I mean: yes, the druid can still do things, and be effective. Not gamebreaking. Being always "effective" is the hallmark of T3. A druid is supposed to be always "gamebreaking". I want someone to show me how a Druid build that is actually playable without having to dodge books thrown at you by the DM manages to do that. I can understand wizards, they are crazy, they're still T1 I think. I don't get clerics and druids.

One note to what Glimbur says: Knock, Invisibility and the others are all situationally better than a rogue; they're also in the Beguiler list. It's still T3! That's why I'm asking whether banning the obvious changes things.

[nedz]

Look I've seen Wizards played at a very low tier.

"I cast magic missile"
"But you're 14th level ?"
"yeah - that means I get 5 missiles"
...

It's not how the class is played, it is its potential.

Looking at wizards though cheese flavoured lenses, is like saying Crusader is broken because of the d2 trick.
What prepared spell casting gives you is the ability to handle any problem with preparation.

[rockdeworld]

You guys probably miss my point. T1s are crazy powerful because they have many extremely strong abilities. T2s are powerful because they have some of these abilities. T3s, they don't have more than maybe one of two of them. But once you take away the clearly crazy options, which JaronK includes, what remains?

They aren't missing your point, they're addressing it. JaronK's tier system isn't simply about power, tricks, or especially cheese. As he himself said:

Highly versatile classes will be more likely to efficiently apply what power they have to the situation, while very powerful classes will be able to REALLY help in specific situations.
Removing a few spells from the wizard or cleric's list doesn't make them less (edit:) not versatile. It only gives them a few less, out of hundreds of, options.

If you refuse the argument "the wizard will prepare different spells the next day," then you are essentially refusing the wizard the ability to do what his class does, and forcing him to be a sorcerer. Even if the wizard prepares burning hands and magic missile every day, when he sees it repeatedly doesn't work against the same enemy, and that enemy keeps showing up, he'll probably change his tactics (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0518.html), at least for a day.

JaronK also said this:

I do still have to make a few basic assumptions, such as that player skill and optimziation are reasonably close and that for the most part RAW is being played, but that's about it.
Tier 1 doesn't mean "broken," it means "highly versatile and powerful."
Tier 3 doesn't mean "effective," it means "powerful in one area, useful when the area isn't needed."
Tier 5 doesn't mean "junk," it means "not as powerful as tier 4 in its area, and not useful when that area isn't needed."

These are before taking cheese into account. Banning cheese is normal, and by doing it, DMs keep the classes from completely breaking the game by overcoming all challenges with pitiful ease. It doesn't change that some classes can apply their power more easily to a given situation than others.

To sum up: unless you extremely limit the wizard/cleric/druid spell list, it won't put them in tiers 3-4-5. And if you did, you should probably not use JaronK's tier system.

[Wings of Peace]

Glyphstone: JaronK says his tier system is independent of optimization as long as everyone optimizes the same. This is totally wrong. An unoptimized Wizard 5 will be extremely useless, with just Magic Missile, Flaming Sphere and Lightning Bolt prepared (I've seen a couple). Compare to a Warblade 5, equally not optimized. They are *not* T1 and T3. They are T4 and T3, and a bad T4 too. Don't bring to the table the argument "he will just prepare different spells next day": it wouldn't be low-OP then. When characters are high-OP, conversely, the system stands.

The problem with your example is that it doesn't address the situation in a way actually relevant to the tier system. The player choosing poor spells for the day doesn't mean that his build has less potential than it did before. It just means the player doesn't understand how to use his character in a more effective manner. This is why you can't just say "The ability to prepare different spells doesn't count". It counts immensely. The ability for a Wizard to swap out spells based on what they expect to encounter is what gives them the -potential- to solve almost any problem. Your sample Wizard player made some very poor spell preparation choices, but the problem solving -potential- of his build is the same.

You could alter your example such that the Wizard knows nothing but blasting spells but there is a logical error there as well. If the Wizard player has sacrificed that much problem solving ability then you have to assume the Warblade player has done similar (this statement itself being partially incorrect because it implies the Warblade can make an equivalent sacrifice).

The Warblade equivalent to a Wizard who has chosen to learn (not prepare but learn) only blasting spells would be something along the lines of a Power Attack build that wields a dagger for its weapon. You see, you can't assume the Warblade is still doing competent damage because that was the main problem he could fix from the start. The Wizard has given up the ability to summon, Knock locks, charm people, buff party members, teleport, fly, manipulate the landscape, etc. To assume that it's equivalent optimization for a Warblade to still be good at his one trick when the Wizard has lost the majority of his is wrong.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Except blasting wizards actually see play, whereas dagger-wielding warblades do not. Reason being one build choice is a noob trap, and the other is just weird anti-optimization. Warblades have a higher floor than wizards. Tiers don't describe this very well. It's okay.

[JKTrickster]

Although Tiers arguably describe potential more than floors - some floors are harder to recognize than others.

[TuggyNE]

You guys probably miss my point. T1s are crazy powerful because they have many extremely strong abilities. T2s are powerful because they have some of these abilities. T3s, they don't have more than maybe one of two of them. But once you take away the clearly crazy options, which JaronK includes, what remains?

I'll just point back at my last post, to say again that that is what takes so much effort. There are a great many spells that, if you think them for long enough, you'll note that they have an absurdly powerful niche, or sometimes more than one, and often not a small insignificant niche either. Couple that with the fact that some of their crazy powerful options are either a) extremely iconic (i.e. everyone expects them to be there) or b) essential to the party, or c) both, and you realize that this is not a simple thing to accomplish at all.

Also, T3s are not supposed to have any gamebreaking options at all, except for absurd cheese that only sees use in TO.


Glyphstone: JaronK says his tier system is independent of optimization as long as everyone optimizes the same. This is totally wrong. An unoptimized Wizard 5 will be extremely useless, with just Magic Missile, Flaming Sphere and Lightning Bolt prepared (I've seen a couple). Compare to a Warblade 5, equally not optimized. They are *not* T1 and T3. They are T4 and T3, and a bad T4 too. Don't bring to the table the argument "he will just prepare different spells next day": it wouldn't be low-OP then. When characters are high-OP, conversely, the system stands.

You have something of a point; however, Wizard is the T1 with the lowest floor (or perhaps Artificer, not sure), while Warblade is one of the two classes with the highest floor. At extremely low op (or extremely high op), sure, the system breaks down a bit, and those two classes make it most obvious.

However, consider for a minute a moderately low-op Monk vs a moderately low-op Druid, and you'll see that the opposite case can apply as well: optimization floor is not linked to tier (and I have often thought it would be nice to include it in the listing). An effective druid build basically consists of Natural Spell and then picking good spells and wildshape forms to ensure solid protection, if in melee, or solid domination and invulnerability, if casting. An effective monk build, well... it's a lot more involved.


One note to what Glimbur says: Knock, Invisibility and the others are all situationally better than a rogue; they're also in the Beguiler list. It's still T3! That's why I'm asking whether banning the obvious changes things.

The advantage of the approach taken with the Beguiler is that they did the work of sifting through spells for you, and limited the list to the ones that are half-decent and hard to break (for the most part) as well as thematically appropriate and useful. This is in opposition to the idea that one should find all the absurdly broken spells in existence and fix them, after which everything will be hunky-dory — which would be great except it takes too long for nearly anyone. No, you need to limit the list to the ones that fit first, and then go from there.

Unfortunately, the same has not (yet) been done for e.g. Abjurer-ish casting, Transmuter-ish casting, Conjurer-ish casting, and so on, otherwise fixing the Wizard would actually be simple.

[Darth Stabber]

Even if the wizard has a spellbook full of evocation, he's only a relatively small gold outlay away from some level competence (even if he banned conj and trans). Same with archivist.

As far as people playing poorly/stupidly/newbishly/purposefully self-handicapped, it is impossible to account for those types of human factors (if it was political science and economics would be far more advanced than they are). A druid with toughness for every feat, a gerbil animal companion, constantly wildshaped into a gerbil, all of his skills spent on perform(safety dance), profession(mattress tester), and craft(lame excuse), and only memorizes useless spells is only one morning away from becoming very effective, assuming he didn't dump wisdom. Ditto that for cleric.

STP erudite can be salvaged with the right access to additional powers.

Artificer is probably more ruinable, but honestly I don't have patience to do one right in the first place, or even learn for that matter. Never played one, have little interest in playing one, and I haven't had player try one, so I really can't say anything definitive.

JKtrickster had it right with concept of floors, but that really mucks up the elegant simplicity of the teir system, and what would be added to account for it would be of little use to his target audience (people that frequent 3.5 forums), since they are more likely to have a clue about at least moderate levels of optimization. There are those that play blaster wizards knowing full well that there are more effective uses for their spell slots and actions, but choose blastomancy anyway, and there are those that make really good blastomancer wizards that outstrip the efficacy of a mid-op batmanish wizard, but these are questions of optimization. Warblade is harder screw-up than wizard, but a wizard can fix his spell list much more easily than a warblade can fix whatever he did, and a good spellbook on pile of otherwise poor choices (feats and skills) is actually enough to jump up to the power and versatility his tiering is heir to (assuming a decent int and 0-2 lost caster levels).

Tier2 classes (other than binder with the summon monster vestige) are much easier to screw up since all of them have spell/power lists that they assemble themselves, and they are haunted by these choices for longer than the their higher tiered equivalents.

Tier3 classes are usually harder to screw-up. Beguiler and Dreadnecro have fixed lists, so all they have to do is cast the spells that don't suck to regain a lot of efficacy (though beguiler's focus on skills mean that he can't turn around as fully). Martial adept require a concerted effort to suck, even just picking the coolest sound maneuvers will mean contributions in combat, you can make a useless one, but it had to get that way on purpose. Incarnate, totemist, and binder are as salvageable as clerics, ie their main class feature is redoable everyday from big lists of options, and waking up in the morning and deciding not to suck can make them at least useful assuming their ability scores are too poorly placed. Bard and psywar are the two most likely to be screwed up, and the story is roughly the same as sorcerer and psion, but they tend to be even more dependant on feat choices.

So we can see that there are three factors at work in these floors. How ineffective a class can be assuming that the player isn't actively trying to suck, and how quickly a decision to get better can turn it around, and how effective said turn around can be without psychic reformation/retraining/chaos-shuffle. Psychic reformation probably could be considered in turning around mid-high level psions and wilders since that power is in the srd, and does exactly what it seems like it does, but I will leave it out.

All of this is also based on the assumption that character in question isn't VERY poorly multiclassed, since that is almost impossible to fix without very serious retraining.

[rockdeworld]

Since the concept of floors has come up, I'd like to point out The Psionic Sandwich. (http://wayback.archive.org/web/jsp/Interstitial.jsp?seconds=5&date=1202903867000&url=http%3A%2F%2Fforums.gleemax.com%2Fshowpost.php %3Fp%3D8570529&target=http%3A%2F%2Fweb.archive.org%2Fweb%2F200802 13115747%2Fhttp%3A%2F%2Fforums.gleemax.com%2Fshowp ost.php%3Fp%3D8570529) In addition, both a wizard and a cleric can use Polymorph Any Object to turn themselves into a sandwich, with Craft Contingent Spell set to cast Polymorph Any Object again in the event that they get polymorphed into a sandwich in order to make it permanent. So if you're intentionally trying to be bad... well, there's that. Of course, I don't think anyone's talking about that.

To take it in another direction, the idea of a blind fighter is a popular archtype that is almost completely unsupported in D&D for any kind of martial class, yet I myself have played one, and there's a thread on the front page (maybe 2 by now) talking about it. So, really, where's the floor?

[Talya]

Warblades have a higher floor than wizards. Tiers don't describe this very well. It's okay.


Good point. It's very hard to describe a floor, because with enough poor choices, one can really make ANY class much worse. But some classes suffer worse than others.

A poorly played wizard is going to be only marginally more effective than a commoner. (mostly because that wizard will be dead, and quickly.) Conversely, a poorly played cleric is going to look a lot like a paladin. A poorly played druid can still dominate play.

[Killer Angel]

You guys probably miss my point. T1s are crazy powerful because they have many extremely strong abilities. T2s are powerful because they have some of these abilities. T3s, they don't have more than maybe one of two of them. But once you take away the clearly crazy options, which JaronK includes, what remains?

Again, no.
the "clearly crazy options" are not what make certain casters T1.
Scrying, teleport, fly, invisibility and summons, are not crazy options. But they gives the power and the flexibility needed to qualify as a T1.

[tiercel]

It's worth mentioning that the distance between tiers is a significant function of level. Yes, your "Tier 1" classes remain more flexible even at level 1, but they don't have as much more flexibility than nonspellcasters at level 1 as they do at level 9 or level 15.

Without particular optimization, a level 1 wizard is going to be able to cast about 5 spells a day, total, including 0-level spells, across the RDA of 4 encounters per day. Unless every one of his spells instantly ends every encounter, there's going to be time where he is going to be in commoner-with-crossbow mode. (Or at least requiring downtime & burning through his WBL -- or less downtime but access to Town and burning through WBL faster -- with scroll creation/use.)

By 9th level, even if we no longer count 0-level spells as worthy of in-combat actions, the wizard is packing 17-18 spells a day memorized. Without resorting to other measures, the wizard can probably cast a spell every round of combat for the day even if his spells aren't instant "I Win" buttons, and WBL is high enough that keeping scrolls around or even a low level wand is now only a relatively small fraction of total wealth.

Much higher than 9th level and the only way a wizard is realistically using all his memorized spells per day is significant out-of-combat use: divination, utility, buffing, etc. It's a whole new dimension of flexibility when the wizard no longer has to choose between having in-combat options and being able to win before combat even begins.

In the end the "tier" system is mostly another way of phrasing the "casters quadratic, noncasters linear" issue -- spellcasting "wins" D&D with its greater number of options, so the greater the access you have to spellcasting, the higher your "tier."

The "quadratic vs linear" nature of the problem is exactly why the distance between "tiers" is ameliorated (but not eliminated) at lower levels, but grows increasingly apparent (and problematic) the higher character levels get. A level 1 fighter can be a relevant partymate to a level 1 wizard; a level 15 fighter likely struggles to not be a mere liability when grouped with a level 15 wizard.

And it's also why tweaking individual spells or even groups of spells won't materially adjust "tiers" -- a sorcerer can cast in principle pretty much any spell a wizard can, it's that the wizard has greater access. (Heck, clerics and druids don't even have to do anything to have universal access to their spell list; just crack open another sourcebook.)

Tweaking the most problematic and powerful spells might reduce some of the distance between some of the tiers, but it won't eliminate them. A cubic function always outpaces a quadratic function always outpaces a linear one eventually, even if you damp how fast the higher-order functions rise.

[Answerer]

In the end the "tier" system is mostly another way of phrasing the "casters quadratic, noncasters linear" issue
I agree with your entire post, but would quibble on this point. While casters are quadratic (or, more realistically, more like exponential, or even better than that), and noncasters are linear (or, in some cases, even worse than that), and the tiers reflect this to a certain degree, that is not all of what the tiers have to say. There's more to the tiers than that (which you get into nicely in your post).

[eggs]

Again, no.
the "clearly crazy options" are not what make certain casters T1.
Scrying, teleport, fly, invisibility and summons, are not crazy options. But they gives the power and the flexibility needed to qualify as a T1.
That model might need some revision, as it would put Binders and Factotums at T1.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

That said, if you ban or rewrite all the spells that are overpowered/have overpowered uses, of course a Wizard (or Cleric, or Druid, or Archivist, or even Artificer) will no longer be T1. That's the extreme DM fiat. Do you know how many spells that is? No, really, do you know how many spells you need to ban or rewrite? There are several thousand published spells, you'd need to check all of them and rewrite probably several hundred at the least. As far as I know, no one has ever finished that project.

Point of order: Legend did. Then again, it ended up being a different game, albeit still loosely based on the D20SRD, so that's a point in favor of the statement "Even if you manage to do so, it probably wouldn't be D&D 3.5 anymore".

This is an old and rehashed topic.

[TuggyNE]

Point of order: Legend did. Then again, it ended up being a different game, albeit still loosely based on the D20SRD, so that's a point in favor of the statement "Even if you manage to do so, it probably wouldn't be D&D 3.5 anymore".

Yeah, OK, fair enough. Correct me if I'm wrong, but spellcasters in Legend don't work much at all like 3.5 Wizards, do they?

[Answerer]

Yeah, OK, fair enough. Correct me if I'm wrong, but spellcasters in Legend don't work much at all like 3.5 Wizards, do they?
All spellcasters are Spontaneous a la Sorcerer. All of them learn 3 spells of each spell level.

[mucco]

{Scrubbed}


Can someone show me what a mid-OP Druid can do to locate a resistance leader that makes him so campaign-breaking that "extreme DM fiat" is required?

More: show me how a mid-OP Cleric fares against a Dread Necromancer or Factotum when preparing for a war; show me where, by the definition of T1, they are "very hard to challenge" and where the DM fiat s required while the Binder and Factotum do not need it.

Give me examples.

Just for the sake of the argument, I wil provide counter examples.
Druid and resistance leader: he might try Commune with Nature? Otherwise, I got nothing. You probably know Druid better than me, so enlighten me. He's T1, I expect him to solve this while laughing and playing scrabble with his other hand, just like a Wizard.

Cleric, in the war example. Let's say L12: he has some powerful area buffs, he can pull off a few good social checks to grant himself some allies, and some spells give him powerful debuffs. Wall of Blades will be very helpful. Mass heals will provide useful though, even if at level 12 the cleric doesn't have a whole lot of those.
Factotum: can probably do much more social checks, can possibly scout and sneak ahead better than a cleric thanks to easy access to invisibility and sneak skills, has access to some of the more powerful BC spells like tentacles and wall of ice/stone. Might be able to get an action advantage on the cleric when it really matters.
Dread: has excellent area debuffs with lots of spell slots. Can stack fear and make enemy battalions flee with little problems. Can have two or three huge skeleton dragons ripping soldiers to shreds. Acid Fog, Cloudkill, Circle of Death. He can probably even try some ally convincing through Bluff and/or Intimidate, in which he is very strong. Really good situation for a Dread Necromancer.
In this scenario, which shows a Dread in its ideal condition and a Factotum in a not-so-ideal one, I see the Cleric as being pretty much on par performance with the Factotum. According to the tier system, he should be able to be at least as powerful and useful in this situation (as any other situation) as the Dread, and should be able to do everything the Factotum does and much more. Again, show me how he can do it.

[rockdeworld]

Can someone show me what a mid-OP Druid can do to locate a resistance leader that makes him so campaign-breaking that "extreme DM fiat" is required?
I don't think anything anyone does to locate a resistance leader is campaign-breaking, whether it's a commoner or Pun-Pun. Almost everyone can use the Gather Information skill, Track, or Scrying (even with UMD in a pinch). What does it have to do with tiers?

If you want an example of "mid-OP," it will help if you define "mid-OP." Are we talking "middle of Blastificer and Team Solar" or "middle of healbot and someone who actually uses their class features"?

You're right about the druid. In fact, he can play Scrabble with both hands while his animal companion uses Track. He can use Track himself. He can use SNA 1 to have an Eagle (or Owl) look for him. He can combine Wild Empathy and Speak With Animals to get a bunch of forest critters to search for him, or straight out tell him if they've seen him. These are all usable abilities at level 1. The Factotum can do none of these things at level 1. Neither can the Warblade (which is very high in Tier 3).

Clerics potentially also have invisibility and sneak skills with the right domains (eg. Trickery), or in other words, if they want them. Just as the Factotum has to choose to put ranks in those skills if he wants them. And the Factotum's cherry-picked spells have nothing on the actual Wizard. In any situation. But now I'm talking about Factotum, which I haven't played much, so I'll let others talk about that more.

The point is, what is it you want? It's like you're past the point of asking questions and are just trying to prove something to the rest of the playground. If you really think tier 3s and tier 1s are on the same level, that's fine. No one needs to argue with you, we're just trying to help you by answering your questions to the best of our ability. We're all human, after all, and we each have our own beliefs, experiences and opinions. It just seems to me that, even after the monumental explanations people have put forward in this thread, you still don't like what you're hearing. If you want a bunch of concrete examples, why don't you go play a game and see for yourself?

Edit: which would have the added advantage that you wouldn't have to ask anyone else for their experience, because you'd have your own, and could support your own arguments in either direction.

[Spuddles]

I think the tiers should include ceilings, given appropriate optimization. Warmage is tier 1 with 10 levels of warsnake, for instance. Pretending that hyper-optimal, non-thematic spell, feat & domain selection is somehow not a form of extreme optimization while prestige class options is doesn't make sense to me. The elements of the system don't function in a vacuum, so creating a false isolation for your favorite classes to qualify seems rather dishonest.

Clericzilla is pretty good, but not great without DMM shenanigans. Otherwise it's a mediocre secondary caster that needs to spend a lot of slots and actions to function as a melee powerhouse. Somehow, though, DMM cleric is default but UMD warlock is too much optimization.

[Spuddles]

For the druid:
Druid has access to Scrying, Animal Messenger, Wildshape, and Animal Companion.

But what's the purpose of meeting with the resistance leader? To overthrow a corrupt regime? To bring the resistance leader to justice? In either case, could the Druid instead take some other option to solve the problem? Because that's what T1 is really about.

The cleric, for instance, can plane shift to a Good aligned plane where he diplomacies a few angels or archons to accompany him on his quest to end the undead menace. But it's actually really important what spells you decide on banning. If you decide on banning every single spell that makes Cleric T1, then you have proven that if you remove the elements that make Cleric T1, cleric is no longer T1.

[mucco]

You're right about the druid. In fact, he can play Scrabble with both hands while his animal companion uses Track. He can use Track himself. He can use SNA 1 to have an Eagle (or Owl) look for him. He can combine Wild Empathy and Speak With Animals to get a bunch of forest critters to search for him, or straight out tell him if they've seen him. These are all usable abilities at level 1. The Factotum can do none of these things at level 1. Neither can the Warblade (which is very high in Tier 3).

Clerics potentially also have invisibility and sneak skills with the right domains (eg. Trickery), or in other words, if they want them. Just as the Factotum has to choose to put ranks in those skills if he wants them. And the Factotum's cherry-picked spells have nothing on the actual Wizard. In any situation. But now I'm talking about Factotum, which I haven't played much, so I'll let others talk about that more.

I think you're proving my point by using these examples. These are all "useful" things. As JaronK shows us, wizard insta-wins both situations with two simple tricks: Contact Other Plane, and the Locate City Bomb. This proves the point that Wizard is T1 excellently. While I would ban the LCB, the divination is fine to me. But druids don't have that power from what I can see, and I expect them to be able to perform at the same level. I just can't understand how they can do it. They can be useful, perhaps a bit more so than a warblade, although probably a good Intimidate will go much further than anything the druid has if you somehow cannot track - depending on the campaign, of course. And clerics can build for sneak, yeah, but that could leave them weaker in other areas. Almost any factotum will have at least the two good social skills near max, I can guarantee that. And those spells are very handy, trust me. Six 4th level spells is what a factotum gets at L12, and they can go a long way, also because they have true versatility - they can pick any wizard spell, any day.


The point is, what is it you want? It's like you're past the point of asking questions and are just trying to prove something to the rest of the playground. If you really think tier 3s and tier 1s are on the same level, that's fine. No one needs to argue with you, we're just trying to help you by answering your questions to the best of our ability. We're all human, after all, and we each have our own beliefs, experiences and opinions. It just seems to me that, even after the monumental explanations people have put forward in this thread, you still don't like what you're hearing. If you want a bunch of concrete examples, why don't you go play a game and see for yourself?

Edit: which would have the added advantage that you wouldn't have to ask anyone else for their experience, because you'd have your own, and could support your own arguments in either direction.

Fair point. I made this thread (it's not the first one of this kind) because I've played several clerics myself, and I've seen some druids in play. I have also played god wizards. I restrain myself from using things that are considered OP, and optimize otherwise, and so does my group. Well, in my experience, there is just no contest between arcanists and anyone else - a sorcerer will always be ten times as dangerous and gamebreaking as any cleric without Planar Ally, or Dweomerkeeper, or near-infinite turn attempts for DMM, or Gate (which are all things we avoid). And the cleric will never be much more powerful than a T3 caster; he will probably have a better spell every now and then, he might have a solution where others don't know what to do sometimes, but that's it. Same for the druid. So it's not like I'm trying to prove a point: I am confident that the worship this forum has of JaronK and his tier system is not blind - but I need someone to show it to me.

Because to be honest (I'm going to go on a tangent here), it really seems to me like druid was listed as T1 because of Shapechange and splatbooks. Everyone hails WS as if it's the best melee anyone can get, and the Animal Companion is seen as the ultimate war beast. But I only see this compared to fighters... I mean, fighters. Why are people not comparing the druid's melee prowess against at least a Crusader? A standard ubercharger? Is it going to be significantly better than a T3-listed WS Ranger? Sure, you have spells, but so do other T3 classes. Is it possible that a WS ranger with 9ths on top gets to be T1? I've never seen something like this happen and my group is full of optimizers. This goes for Clerics too, I can't help feeling they're T1 because of one or two tricks plus splatbooks. Like, Planar Ally, Gate, and DMM. Take that away and what are you? Might be a genius, philantropist, millionaire and playboy if you've got the Cha, the Int, and the right background, but as far as tiers go, I'm not sure.

Final note on what mid-OP means for me: I consider high-OP anything that pushes far beyond the ability of a certain class, like the possibility for a wizard to gain 50 Str and much more with a simple spell, as well as anything that consistently breaks the action economy for a comparably small price (Celerity, Craft Cont. Spell), anything that makes your character close to invulnerable under any circumstance (regeneration+immunity to nonlethal), anything that is horribly written and taken at face value (I houserule Shivering Touch to do a penalty with min 1), anything that allows you loops (minions with minions with minions, chain Gating). High-OP is banned/kept in check when I DM, and avoided on my characters. My friends usually stray away from this kind of stuff too, and that is my definition of mid-OP.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Clerics have access to the most powerful divination spells in the game, arguably even more powerful than the Wizard's, and can GET the Wizard's divinations if they really want to bother. They also get access to Planar Ally series. These two alone put them in Tier 1.

There is literally nowhere in the multiverse you can go where they can't follow you and bring the entire plane's worth of minions with him. Recursive summons happen. Summon something with cleric casting (like HALF of his choices for Planar Ally) and have them start summoning buddies with the same. Pretty soon, you've got a whole bloody army there.

Heck, he's got flippin' MIRACLE, which is Wish's bigger brother. The spell's literal description is 'my god says I can' as an appropriate response to ANYTHING. No corruption if you exceed the bounds, just a flat xp cost.

Heck, he could just go "I cast miracle, here's your 5k xp cost. Where is he? That's effectively Discern Location, which is on the list of allowed effects, but Miracle isn't a Divination effect, so Mind Blank won't stop it". In fact, this is the only known method to bypass that limitation.

[Spuddles]

Planar Ally is expensive and subject to DM whim, unfortunately. Not nearly as solid as planar binding.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Planar Ally is expensive and subject to DM whim, unfortunately. Not nearly as solid as planar binding.

However, it is also far less dangerous than Planar Binding, since you don't risk losing control and getting shanked for your pains.

Furthermore, the list they have access to is quite impressive.

Also, I see nothing which is DM Whim which isn't also in Planar Binding. All you do is pay a trivial xp cost for a guarantee.

[Spuddles]

"By casting this spell, you request your deity to send you an elemental or outsider (of 6 HD or less) of the deity’s choice. If you serve no particular deity, the spell is a general plea answered by a creature sharing your philosophical alignment. If you know an individual creature’s name, you may request that individual by speaking the name during the spell (though you might get a different creature anyway)."

[DoughGuy]

@OP The problem you seem to be having is you are valuing your anecdotal evidence too highly. Just because you haven't seen a cleric challenge a T1 class in a game doesn't mean they can't. It just means no one has played them in a way they can. JaronK's system assumed equal optimisation and he looked at all the options the classes have. I'm pretty sure he's also played a lot of games and viewed a lot of builds on this forum seeing what all the classes can do. I've seen clerics be super powerful, and I've seen clerics fail pretty hard. It depends on the player what you see, but the tier system removes that variable and puts all the classes on equal footing.

[rockdeworld]

Sorry mucco, I think I posted too hastily, and assumed you had already read these links:
This post has specific examples of the tier system at work. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=2icur69i2eds1m6t075aqc3u64&topic=1002.msg24722#msg24722)
This thread individually addresses each class's spot in the tier system. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5070.0)

Forgive me for making that assumption. I got carried away.

[Killer Angel]

That model might need some revision, as it would put Binders and Factotums at T1.

Also the sorcerer. :smallconfused:
Probably, it could have been better, from my part, to avoid the explicit reference to the T1, but spells are powerful, and even if you remove a dozen of the most broken ones, you cannot avoid the real gap.

[Gwendol]

a sorcerer will always be ten times as dangerous and gamebreaking as any cleric without Planar Ally

This is simply wrong. It's a sweeping generalization with no real data to support it. The cleric is a very powerful class even without Planar Ally, and in general more versatile than a sorcerer of the same level. Low level clerics can be a little "hum-ho healing my bro", but at mid- to high-level they really take off. And DMM isn't a shenanigan; it's part of the design of the class.

[Spuddles]

And DMM isn't a shenanigan; it's part of the design of the class.

In that case, Rainbow Servant isn't a shenanigan, it's part of the design of Warmage.

Which means Warmage is T1, but better.

[Killer Angel]

IMO, the only problems with DMM, are metamagic reducers...

[Gwendol]

In that case, Rainbow Servant isn't a shenanigan, it's part of the design of Warmage.

Which means Warmage is T1, but better.

So? Does nothing regarding sorcerers "always" being 10 times better than clerics.

[Mephit]

Clerics are still tier 1 without DMM. The tier system was designed with low to mid-op, and a cleric can outshine anything Tier 3 and below and is far more versatile than tier 2 classes like the Sorcerer.

At high-op, a Cleric probably needs DMM to keep up with other tier 1s, but that's not relevant to the discussion.

[Gwendol]

Exactly. It's like saying that a druid without natural spell is no longer tier 1.

[The Glyphstone]

It's also worth noting that Druids are probably the weakest of the T1 classes. They've got the gamebreaking flexibility of a T1, but without access to other classes' spell lists, don't reach the campaign/setting-smashing potential of a Cleric or Wizard.

[Gwendol]

And yet, druids typically are more versatile than your sorcerer, beguiler, warmage, etc.

[AmberVael]

I think you're proving my point by using these examples. These are all "useful" things.

I think I see what difficulty you're having here.

A Tier 1 class doesn't have to have terrifying, instant problem solving powers. It's not high bonuses, giant damage, or finger snap solutions that makes a Tier 1 class either: it's the ability to consistently produce viable and useful answers to any given situation.

A wizard may achieve that through overwhelming force and versatility, but if a druid can do it just by having tons of useful powers, well, that makes the druid Tier 1 too. Even if you feel their spells are less impressive, if those spells are constantly capable of solving problems and giving notable assistance, then that's all that is required of them.

Here's a good question to determine if a class has what it takes to be Tier 1: Do they actually need any other class to solve a variety of problems in a single day?

If you have a party of druids, I think they'll do very well. Maybe a warblade would be a bit better at fighting a ravening aberration, but I also imagine flame conjuring dinosaurs will do the job. Perhaps a Dread Necromancer could make a better army, but a horde of summoned elementals will overrun a fort as well. If they're asked to sneak through a factory, maybe the clever factotum could use his stealth and spells to better effect, but a few mice can slip through just fine.

But if you ask the Warblade, Dread Necromancer, or Factotum, to do ALL of those things, they'll likely fail on at least one count. A Tier 1 class, like the Druid, doesn't. That's their power- whatever the situation, they can make a viable and almost always successful course of action. It might not be the most optimal solution, but success doesn't require perfection- and constant success across all areas is worth far more than perfection in one.

[eggs]

It's not high bonuses, giant damage, or finger snap solutions that makes a Tier 1 class either: it's the ability to consistently produce viable and useful answers to any given situation.

...

Here's a good question to determine if a class has what it takes to be Tier 1: Do they actually need any other class to solve a variety of problems in a single day?
Again, don't those parameters make the Factotum T1 as well? It can build your small army with Wizard spells, outfight obstacles with action economy abuse and its spells, sneak into whatever building, find the resistance leader and so on without needing any other class to solve their problems. The same goes for classes with access to big open-ended magic effects like calling spells, metamorphosis+metamorphic transfer, imbue item and so forth.

I think any way this is sliced, the power of spells available at a given time is an inherent part of the common model, which does put a bit more weight on having the outright-breakable powers (and getting them in a timely manner) than it is being credited with.

[Kazyan]

If you know what you're doing, doesn't Factotum become Tier 1? Seems like it, from what the board back-and-forths about regarding it. And as Thaigo can tell you, Factotum has a biased evaluation of its Tier. It needs a more careful look at its place in the game, basically.

[The Glyphstone]

A Factotum is vastly more limited in his application, though - he caps out at 7th level spells, has a sustained spell level cap 4 levels behind an equivalent wizard, gets a maximum of 8 spells at level 20 (and only 1 of those 8 can be his max spell level), can only ever have 1 copy of a specific spell, and cannot hold slots open to fill them later.

It's very much the point of a factotum, that it gets abilities mimicking those of other classes in a reduced fashion but can't actually match them. And yet it is still a very powerful class if used right.

[DeltaEmil]

Again, don't those parameters make the Factotum T1 as well? It can build your small army with Wizard spells, outfight obstacles with action economy abuse and its spells, sneak into whatever building, find the resistance leader and so on without needing any other class to solve their problems. The same goes for classes with access to big open-ended magic effects like calling spells, metamorphosis+metamorphic transfer, imbue item and so forth.The factotum can use each of its spell-like abilities only once per day, and has only access to 7th level-spells at maximum (and the 7th level-spell can only be used once). It can do a lot, but it just doesn't have the overwhelming flexibility that pure spellcasters of the same character level have.

[eggs]

The question is whether we're addressing flexibility or power, though.

In terms of flexibility, the Factotum can emulate abilities of the same kinds as the Druid (shapeshifts, blasts, summons, long-term allies, healing effects) as well as many more (action economy abuse, illusion, enchantments, teleports, abjurations).

It's power that differentiates the two. Like has been said, the Factotum lags behind in spell levels, it doesn't shapeshift as well as the Druid until higher levels, its tactical summons are never quite as strong as the Druid's, etc.

But the advantage the Druid has isn't a difference in breadth, like many posts discounting the relevance of certain high-powered spells in tier listings have been saying. It's very nested in the brute power of the druid's abilities like wild shape, timely advancement to the hardest hitting versions of its spells, and so forth.

[AmberVael]

The question is whether we're addressing flexibility or power, though.

In terms of flexibility, the Factotum can emulate abilities of the same kinds as the Druid (shapeshifts, blasts, summons, long-term allies, healing effects) as well as many more (action economy abuse, illusion, enchantments, teleports, abjurations).

It's power that differentiates the two. Like has been said, the Factotum lags behind in spell levels, it doesn't shapeshift as well as the Druid until higher levels, its tactical summons are never quite as strong as the Druid's, etc.

But the advantage the Druid has isn't a difference in breadth, like many posts discounting the relevance of certain high-powered spells in tier listings have been saying. It's very nested in the brute power of the druid's abilities like wild shape, timely advancement to the hardest hitting versions of its spells, and so forth.

You'll notice that my post does note both. I emphasize versatility over power, but power does not go unnoticed. I consistently say viable, and successful solutions. Doing many things doesn't matter as much if none of those things can solve a problem well- that's why monk is kind of terrible, despite having a lot of different things.

But Factotum really does lack in versatility too, compared to full spellcasters. They gain spells, drawn from a wide list, but the sheer number of limitations placed on their spellcasting means they can never match the massive arsenal of a true spellcaster. The Factotum's spells are useful, but ultimately a handful of tools is not as reliable as an entire toolbox.

The different between a Druid and a Factotum, interestingly, goes far to serve my real point- it isn't spells being broken that makes a Tier 1 class Tier 1. Factotum gets a fairly useful spellcasting mechanic, but they're still Tier 3. And that's because they can't use nearly as broad array as a Tier 1 class can, at any given time and in any given way. They're forced to pick a few solutions every day, but no more than that.

This is also why you have the Tier 3 full spellcasting classes- they have a nice selection of spells, and can cast them constantly, but they're not Tier 1. And it's because they have very limited kinds of spells they can use. The might of spellcasting alone does not push them up further in power.

Therefore, it is the broad array of powers that makes a Tier 1 class Tier 1, not the might of any particular spell.

[Emperor Tippy]

To be Tier 1 requires two things, really.
1) Versatility. To be Tier 1 is to virtually always have a solution to any problem that you are faced with. This is the key separator between Tier 1 and Tier 2.
2) Power. To be Tier 2 or better you need to have the potential power to shatter the setting with native abilities (class features and not items).

The Factotum has the versatility, at least when properly optimized, and there are very few situations where a Factotum can't contribute meaningfully but at the end of the day the Factotum simply lacks the raw power to rise above Tier 3.

[rockdeworld]

And since Tippy just posted when I clicked "reply", I'll finish his example:
The Warblade almost has the power, hence my saying it's "very high" in tier 3, but lacks versatility.

[mucco]

It's also worth noting that Druids are probably the weakest of the T1 classes. They've got the gamebreaking flexibility of a T1, but without access to other classes' spell lists, don't reach the campaign/setting-smashing potential of a Cleric or Wizard.

Thanks for starting to see my point. If you have time, I'd like you to show me an example of how flexibility can be gamebreaking, as well as the Druid's full campaign-smashing potential, under my guidelines (no high-OP as previously defined).


I think I see what difficulty you're having here.

A Tier 1 class doesn't have to have terrifying, instant problem solving powers. It's not high bonuses, giant damage, or finger snap solutions that makes a Tier 1 class either: it's the ability to consistently produce viable and useful answers to any given situation.

Thanks; your post allows me to point out that many people think that T1 means what you say. It doesn't. As posted in the OP, this is the only definition of T1 that we have:


Capable of doing absolutely everything, often better than classes that specialize in that thing. Often capable of solving encounters with a single mechanical ability and little thought from the player. Has world changing powers at high levels. These guys, if played well, can break a campaign and can be very hard to challenge without extreme DM fiat, especially if Tier 3s and below are in the party.

So, yeah. T1s have terrifying, instant problem solving powers. And more, all the time.

To Emperor Tippy: do you think a Cleric or Druid out of high-OP (see my previous definition) has the power, and the power in its versatility, to be still considered T1? If so, care to show me an example?


Sorry mucco, I think I posted too hastily, and assumed you had already read these links:
This post has specific examples of the tier system at work. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=2icur69i2eds1m6t075aqc3u64&topic=1002.msg24722#msg24722)
This thread individually addresses each class's spot in the tier system. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5070.0)

Forgive me for making that assumption. I got carried away.

Your attempt to ridicule me is a bit sad, honestly. One of the posts you link is the one I've been using for my examples; the other, frequently linked, is a good summary of each class's official handbook, but doesn't nearly come close to explaining what it claims in the title, and is completely irrelevant to this thread since I've set some constraints. I apologize for taking you seriously and devoting way too many words to answering your post last time. It won't happen again.

[AmberVael]

Thanks; your post allows me to point out that many people think that T1 means what you say. It doesn't. As posted in the OP, this is the only definition of T1 that we have.
JaronK is not the end to the language and definitions used in optimizing. He may have given a very notable and widespread example, but it's spread and developed beyond him, as well it should.

That said, I don't think my view and his view significantly conflict or are even mutually exclusive. You can constantly solve all problems and have single mechanics that provide solutions without those mechanics being overpowered cure alls. You'll notice that every solution I gave (turn into a dinosaur, turn into a mouse, use a summoning spell repeatedly) was both simple and really only relied on a single mechanic that in itself wasn't too bad, and not worthy of Tier 1 on its own merits, given that other classes have these same mechanics.

You'll also notice that some of these solutions do, in fact, dwarf other classes in some aspects, typically the lower power ones (which I'd argue is what JaronK was thinking about when he said 'often better than classes that do the same thing'). A dinosaur is scarier than a fighter. A mouse is less noticeable in a factory than a sneaky rogue in a black outfit.

And really, game and world changing powers don't have to be awesome, monumental spells. A 1st level Charm Spell, properly applied, could rewrite history. A single spell being used in the right way can bypass obstacles in ways that a DM never considered, altering the narrative and game completely. Removing the broken and big flashy spells doesn't alter the ability of a spellcaster to completely change the game, simply because any small bit of magic really can change how things are done.

And if a character can consistently and simply overcome challenges with a bit of thought and proper application of their wide arsenal of powers... how DO you challenge them? If you're facing Batman and his ability to pull out anything from shark repellent to flying capes to super radar vision, what kind of obstacle do you really put in his way? You can do it, but it's tough. But it's not because characters shouldn't have shark repellent or flying capes or super radar vision, it's just because handing all of those things to one class gives them all the solutions they need to face anything they might come across.

I think that addresses all the important aspects of his definition and how it coincides with my understanding.

[hymer]

I'm really trying to understand what you're saying here. Let's break it down:


Capable of doing absolutely everything, often better than classes that specialize in that thing.

Druids can scout, melee, blast, battlefield control, socialize, buff, heal... Is there a role you're saying they can't do? As for the 'often better' they are better at melee than melee, and better at scouting than scouts. Is that often enough?



Often capable of solving encounters with a single mechanical ability and little thought from the player.

Plenty of spell in the druid's arsenal that can do this. Turning into something that flies or burrows can stop certain encounters dead. Even the lowly wild empathy is an ability that can do this.



Has world changing powers at high levels.

Access to the shapechange spell is all you need.



These guys, if played well, can break a campaign and can be very hard to challenge without extreme DM fiat, especially if Tier 3s and below are in the party.

A fully buffed, shapechanged druid can crash through encounters that sets the standard melee reeling. Partially breaking the action economy with an animal companion helps, being able to switch easily among many different tactics does too.

[Gwendol]

Mucco, I'm curious to see an example of how you consider sorcerers ten times more powerful than clerics by simply banning planar ally? By your reasoning it seems you consider that to be the one thing making the cleric powerful?

[Deadline]

Question: in this situation, do tiers (and especially T1) stay the same way?

Yes, but the noticeable power gap between tiers will be lessened. The tier 1's are still going to have fantastic flexibility. Their ability to play "anything you can do I can do better" will be lessened. Their ability to be able to end encounters with a single mechanical ability will be lessened. Their ability to wield campaign changing abilities will be lessened. Their ability to break a campaign world will be eliminated almost entirely (assuming Fly or Teleport don't break your campaign world).

Basically, depending on how badly you nerf the tier 1's by banning spells, you may wind up with some tier 3's truly being the experts in their field. However, the tier 1's can still do their job (not as well) in a pinch.

[Mephit]

Can someone show me what a mid-OP Druid can do to locate a resistance leader that makes him so campaign-breaking that "extreme DM fiat" is required?

Off the top of my head: at lower levels he can have his animal companion track the leader better than the ranger, he can employ animals and plants to help him ; at higher levels he can scry, wildshape into something with flight, use commune with X.

He doesn't actually need any optimization for that, nor does he need to give up any flexibility for that. All he needs is straight druid levels. For the most part, there's no reason to ever let a Ranger use his tracking if you have a Druid in your party.

[Darth Stabber]

To Emperor Tippy: do you think a Cleric or Druid out of high-OP (see my previous definition) has the power, and the power in its versatility, to be still considered T1? If so, care to show me an example?

I'm not Tippy, but I think I have a handle on this (and Tippy feel free to tell me I'm wrong).

Reducing the optimization level of a cleric or druid reduces their power far more than their versatility. The list of spells available to cleric is MASSIVE, and they straight up have access to the vast bulk of it with no extra effort required (as opposed to wizards and archivists who need to spend time writing theirs down). Assuming some vague clue as to the upcoming day's requirements, you can have ready solutions to almost anything prepped, and because of the massive list, you have many specific solutions that will be more powerful than the general more widely applicable solutions in the particular instance. Where as a sorcerer or a favored soul will generally focus on more widely applicable spells since they only get so many.

This is taken even further with the simple addition of scribe scroll, which official D&D materials outright state that scribe scroll is good for spells that are very good in specific situation but won't come up all the time. I personally think any advice given by WotC should never be considered High-OP, since so much of it will lead you down a path of decreased efficacy.

Druid has a smaller spell list than cleric, but that's like saying that Warren Buffet has less money than Bill Gates, they both have so much that even though the difference is millions of dollars neither of them are deprived of things that can be bought. The Druid spell list is less important for Druids, because they have actual class features. Wildshape makes you a better fighter than a fighter, and natural spell is hardly high-op, meaning that it only really hinders you if you purposefully hold yourself back. Animal Companion gives you another body, complete with another set of actions, and well chosen companion (lets just say you always pick the biggest, strongest bear available to you, not the high op choice of fleshraker dinosaur), it is as good a fighter as a fighter the same level as you (barring a mid-high to high-op lockdown or ubercharger build). So just on those two abilities you are as good as two fighters, and still have 85% of the spell casting power of a cleric (and that's being a bit generous to cleric). You can say cleric is as good a fighter as a druid because of buff spells, but cleric has to use it's spell casting to get there, druid does not, and druid can easily reach into it's spellcasting to grab some equally nice stuff to put on a better starting point.

Druid is hard to mess up. Max out Wis, take Natural spell at 6th, become, befriend, and summon bears, and never prep SNA. That is not much optimization, but bears are a surprisingly good answer to a number of problems. Even a casual perusal of the SRD list of druid spells offers solutions to common problems without even looking beyond the most obvious uses.

Cleric is easier to mess up, but as long as you max out wisdom and remember the general inefficiency of in-combat heals you are likely to do fine buy just looking at the obvious uses for spells. Yes can get more power by being more creative, but even using them in the most obvious way nets you a lot of power if you pick them with some eye for how likely you are to want effect X.

[ThiagoMartell]

If you know what you're doing, doesn't Factotum become Tier 1? Seems like it, from what the board back-and-forths about regarding it. And as Thaigo can tell you, Factotum has a biased evaluation of its Tier. It needs a more careful look at its place in the game, basically.

My portfolio sense is tingling!
Pretty much, yeah. Factotum being above Warlock when it needs more optimization to do the same things Warlock can do with a single feat and a dip in Chameleon is very very weird.

Also, congratulations everyone for a very civil tier discussion.

[Crinias]

...

Heck, he's got flippin' MIRACLE, which is Wish's bigger brother. The spell's literal description is 'my god says I can' as an appropriate response to ANYTHING. No corruption if you exceed the bounds, just a flat xp cost.

Heck, he could just go "I cast miracle, here's your 5k xp cost. Where is he? That's effectively Discern Location, which is on the list of allowed effects, but Miracle isn't a Divination effect, so Mind Blank won't stop it". In fact, this is the only known method to bypass that limitation.

Mind Blank (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mindBlank.htm):

The subject is protected from all devices and spells that detect, influence, or read emotions or thoughts. This spell protects against all mind-affecting spells and effects as well as information gathering by divination spells or effects. Mind blank even foils limited wish, miracle, and wish spells when they are used in such a way as to affect the subject’s mind or to gain information about it. In the case of scrying that scans an area the creature is in, such as arcane eye, the spell works but the creature simply isn’t detected. Scrying attempts that are targeted specifically at the subject do not work at all.

Just saying, Shneekey.

Anyway, I should probably speak of the single greatest experience I have ever had regarding druids. A friend of mine and I started playing a few years back, as complete newbies. He was a Chaotic Neutral Druid. I was a Paladin, and that didn't turn out so well, but that's another story.

Since we began at level 1 I saw just about all of his development up to level 7 (and we'll still continue one of these months):

Although initially my paladin was the better fighter we quickly realized the druid was more versatile in every way. Both in morals and abilities he was better. Healing, buffing, blasting, summoning (particularly bears), he could alternately do any of them. Neither of us knew the system very well back then, so we made various mistakes, but we realized that by virtue of having spells even bad feat choices were little drawback, whereas my paladin had to make a conscious effort to keep up. Well, we more or less balanced out between his madness and my common sense, at least until he unintentionally intentionally corrupted me (long story).

The point where I realized that druids were legitimately one of the most dangerous classes in our DM's setting (and in general) was somewhere between "druids have nearly been driven to extinction and in fact he (my friend's druid) is the last of his tribe" and "we had to use Hold Person on him, handcuff him, gag him, throw him into an iron coffin, and just in case Silenced the coffin just to make sure he wouldn't be able to do anything".

It's pretty much the way Darth says. It's hard to mess up a druid. Hell, my friend didn't even get an animal companion, our DM didn't allow it both for in-and-out of universe reasons, but he still kicks ass.

[DeltaEmil]

My portfolio sense is tingling!
Pretty much, yeah. Factotum being above Warlock when it needs more optimization to do the same things Warlock can do with a single feat and a dip in Chameleon is very very weird.

Also, congratulations everyone for a very civil tier discussion.How is the factotum needing more optimization compared to the warlock? The warlock has only extremely few evocations known, has only two skill points per level (at least it's got a nice class skill list), and their unmodified eldritch blast is a glorified light crossbow, and it takes a while until the eldritch blast becomes good (but still not really good compared to other evocations available).

[Darth Stabber]

Mind Blank (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mindBlank.htm):It's pretty much the way Darth says. It's hard to mess up a druid. Hell, my friend didn't even get an animal companion, our DM didn't allow it both for in-and-out of universe reasons, but he still kicks ass.

To build on my previous post (and adding on your points), part of druid's high optimization floor, but low ceiling (for a tier1) is how it works with regards to PRCs. All of the other core full casters (barring core only bards) have very little (read nothing) to lose when choosing a prestige class. As soon as you can meet the prerequisites for a caster PRC you take it, wizards might wait until 6th level to start a prc they could have entered at 5 just to grab the bonus feat, but clerics and sorcerers jump out asap (though starting a prc at lvl 5 is harder for them, where as wizards can get into master specialist really early). Heck wizard20 is almost always inferior to the relatively simple wizard5/master specialist10/archmage5 and that is not a great wizard build. Using turn undead for it's "out of the box" purpose without significant investment is usually a waste of an action after a certain (fairly early) point, and the return on investment for doing so is pretty low since it only effects 1 creature type, where as the good uses don't care about your cleric level. Familiars are a very risk class feature that can easily suck the xp right off your sheet, most people would happily trade it for a feat. The wizard gets bonus feats, but he gets them very slowly and prcs give you features (features > feats).

Druid OTOH give you actual class features to go with spellcasting, and 2 of them are amazing and very level dependant. A prc that does not increment at least one of these features in addition to spells is not going to be taken seriously. The only real PRC options are beastmaster (and only one level at that, and it doesn't advance spellcasting or wildshape), lion of talasid (which still puts you two levels behind on them), and planar shepard (which is somewhat less exciting without time trait shenanigans that many GMs (myself included) will very quickly drop the ban hammer on). Druid20 can be done without irony, and without feeling left out. How many core classes are that good 1-20 when you have access to prcs? This means that you are best off taking the easy route, use your feats and skills for things you want, follow your class and enjoy. This means they have less fiddly bits for minmaxxers to tweak, and they do miss out on some of the awesome things that other classes pick up from prestiging, things like metamagic reduction, arcane reach, circle magic, improved summons, ect. Add this to some of the oddities on their spell lists and delayed access to certain important effects, there is certainly a case of reduced amplitude (lower highs, higher lows).

[mucco]

Mucco, I'm curious to see an example of how you consider sorcerers ten times more powerful than clerics by simply banning planar ally? By your reasoning it seems you consider that to be the one thing making the cleric powerful?

A 12th level sorcerer will have many spells from this list: Wings of Cover, Wings of Flurry, Arcane Fusion, Dominate Person, Solid Fog, Telekinesis, Wraithstrike, Invisibility, Fly, Greater Mirror Image, Contact Other Plane, the famous old Glitterdust and Grease. Those are all spells that either give you a disproportionate advantage over any other class, or win you encounters/challenges with one simple casting even at 12th level.

I'm having a real hard time finding even one cleric spell, not on the sorc/wiz list, that has the same ability to wreck encounters or challenges. But I'll try. Harm, Antilife Shell, Commune (lesser COP), Divine Insight, maybe Divine Agility? It's something, but it's very far from the might of the sorcerer. The cleric will have some problems finding an efficient and reliable source of flight!


Druids can scout, melee, blast, battlefield control, socialize, buff, heal... Is there a role you're saying they can't do? As for the 'often better' they are better at melee than melee, and better at scouting than scouts. Is that often enough?

Plenty of spell in the druid's arsenal that can do this. Turning into something that flies or burrows can stop certain encounters dead. Even the lowly wild empathy is an ability that can do this.

Access to the shapechange spell is all you need.

A fully buffed, shapechanged druid can crash through encounters that sets the standard melee reeling. Partially breaking the action economy with an animal companion helps, being able to switch easily among many different tactics does too.

Note my restrictions, which are the basis for this thread: one of them is, Shapechange does not exist. See below for a further reply.


Off the top of my head: at lower levels he can have his animal companion track the leader better than the ranger, he can employ animals and plants to help him ; at higher levels he can scry, wildshape into something with flight, use commune with X.

He doesn't actually need any optimization for that, nor does he need to give up any flexibility for that. All he needs is straight druid levels. For the most part, there's no reason to ever let a Ranger use his tracking if you have a Druid in your party.

Those are things that help, are useful, and do stuff. Very T3. Where is the COP that instantly triangulates a position of an enemy? Where is the Domination on a henchman? Or, looking at combat, where is the Mailman? SplitTwinMaximizedEmpowerChain Enervation? Even Mind Blank? Where is the move action no save daze 3/d? Or Arcane Spellsurge? Show me some tricks that bring cleric and druid on par with this, after my (very common) restrictions!

As Crinias shows, the druid can be played badly and become a competent melee. It surely has a high floor. Once you take the broken away, I'm not sure if the ceiling is that far away. You all say it is, so show me the T1 ceiling. Everyone is mentioning T3 kind of power.

[Derjuin]

Those are things that help, are useful, and do stuff. Very T3. Where is the COP that instantly triangulates a position of an enemy? Where is the Domination on a henchman? Or, looking at combat, where is the Mailman? SplitTwinMaximizedEmpowerChain Enervation? Even Mind Blank? Where is the move action no save daze 3/d? Or Arcane Spellsurge? Show me some tricks that bring cleric and druid on par with this, after my (very common) restrictions!

As Crinias shows, the druid can be played badly and become a competent melee. It surely has a high floor. Once you take the broken away, I'm not sure if the ceiling is that far away. You all say it is, so show me the T1 ceiling. Everyone is mentioning T3 kind of power.

Commune with nature can be used to find the locations of people in a natural setting, and gives you a lot of knowledge - at level 12, it tells you up to three of a variety of useful pieces of information about a 12 mile radius area of land. Underground it can be used for an area of 1200 feet in radius. If the people are in a settlement, you gain no knowledge about them or that part of the area - which pretty much pinpoints where they are. Combine that with Lay of the Land (50 mile radius!) and Find the Path and you can scout a huge area very quickly and navigate it.

Druid doesn't really specialize on damage in combat, though they have their options - including wild shaping into a tiny bird and using Fire Seeds, Flame Strike, etc. from high in the air. Combine with Wind Wall and they are very difficult to hit while raining damage from above. They are especially good at controlling combat, with Control Winds, Wind Wall, Entangle, Murderous Mist, Wall of Sand, Drown etc. At least four of those break archers. If they want to melee, they have Bite of the WereX line and wild shaping into the appropriate dinosaur, which is a huge increase in strength. The Druid spell list isn't as all-inclusive as the Wiz/Sor list, but it has its gems - one of them being Summon Nature's Ally with the Greenbound Summoning feat, and later, Summon Nature's Ally with Animal Growth. Both provide extremely potent allies and meat shields. Control Winds can pretty much obliterate an area at 12th level, as it can create Hurricane force winds (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/weather.htm#) (75+ mph) in a 480 ft radius - ships are floundered, buildings are torn down, ranged attacks are impossible, etc.

Another thing to note is that comparing the mid op Druid or Cleric to the Mailman is rather unfair - Mailman is a little higher op than either, and makes use of at least one prestige class (Incantatrix), which the Tier List doesn't cover. In addition, it's specifically built for combat focus. Because it's a Sorcerer, it can't really do much else because all of its spells known are geared towards being a better Mailman. If we were to include prestige classes, Planar Shepherd would require mentioning.

Because Druids know their entire spell list, they can easily prepare different spells the next day. Or even just wild shape into a different animal.

[hymer]

Note my restrictions, which are the basis for this thread: one of them is, Shapechange does not exist. See below for a further reply.

[...]

Everyone is mentioning T3 kind of power.

The first part:

No tier 3 I've seen in play can do what CoDzilla does to combat enocounters.

As for a cleric's encounter-ending abilities you're struggling so hard to find, try Calm Emotions, Repulsion, Wrack, Greater Command, True Seeing, Symbol of X, Dismissal/Banishment, Nauseating Breath, Giant Vermin... Some of these may well be possible to take for a sorcerer, can't be sure without looking them up. What about Exalted spells?

The second part:

For world-altering power, you get the obvious choices like tsunamis, earthquakes, and storms of vengeance. More subtly, you can alter the world's economy with plant growth, instantly build a stonewall, transmute rock to mud/lava to permanently change the world, and I'm sure more things I can't think of right now...
And then there's the things we barely think about any more, the ability to bring the dead back to life, cure the terminally ill and those dying from poison, and their reverses. Do these to someone like a king, and they're world altering.

What makes you think tier1 must mean 'broken even when nerfed'? You quoted JaronK before, let's look at it again:


Capable of doing absolutely everything, often better than classes that specialize in that thing. Often capable of solving encounters with a single mechanical ability and little thought from the player. Has world changing powers at high levels. These guys, if played well, can break a campaign and can be very hard to challenge without extreme DM fiat, especially if Tier 3s and below are in the party.

Nothing that's actually broken as far as I can tell.

[rockdeworld]

Your attempt to ridicule me is a bit sad, honestly.
Wait, what? That's not what I meant at all. I was being honest.

Edit: It might also be worth noting that Mailman with Incantatrix is Tier 0 - Sorcerer is base Tier 2, and the Incantatrix PrC gives +2 tiers. That's important to consider when you start adding PrCs.

[mucco]

@Derjiun:

All true, all true, especially the Mailman part.

The minion/buff support of the druid is nice, and in some select occasions, it can win a battle, sure. However, druid is far from being the best minion class there is, and in fact, summoning+buffing will take up some valuable actions and be less effective than one imagines. We can all think about a druid summoning 8 beasts and empowering them all, but doing that is going to take a lot of rounds. At level 12, a druid can do it with giant crocs, and it will take him a full three rounds - 2 plus one for buffing.

Control Winds is a nice spell. It certainly is good BC. On a very big radius, with friendly fire and centered on the caster though - so including the caster; it's a Fortitude save to avoid being thrown away a few squares and taking some damage each turn. Pretty nice, and it can surely win you some encounters. It's certainly a little piece of T1-2, but I find it very tricky to use.

I don't feel that is enough - take the Dread Necromancer. It can do the minion part better than a druid most likely, and at L12 he has Acid Fog and Waves of Exhaustion, which I personally find extremely powerful - much more so than Control Winds, especially since it's very easy to use. WoE effectively stops any charger dead in its tracks, with only a SR check.

A 12th level Warblade in melee with an enemy can have three allies surround the enemy, attack the monster, give every ally a free attack, give everyone a +6 damage, and then have an ally of his choice full attack, all in a single round. That is an amount of utility as strong as Control Winds' BC in my opinion.

@hymer:

Repulsion, Wrack, True Seeing, Nauseating Breath are on the wizard list. Calm Emotions is... eh. Concentration, can't hit them while they're calmed, still it's nice. Dismissal is typically difficult to land. Giant Vermin is probably in line with SNA or slightly better, nothing ground-breaking. The Symbol spells I've never seen in use actually, and nobody ever talks about them. If you swear by them as a T1 resource, I will believe you. The other spells... well they're nice and all, but who could deny that they would not be on the spell list of many wizards, and almost all sorcerers? True Seeing is a 3k item, as opposed to 250gp to cast it...

Also, IMO most of what the cleric is, is defense. I think the best spells the cleric has are things like energy immunity, spell resistance, freedom of movement and death ward. But those skills cannot raise the tier to more than T3, since they will never break anything and need DM fiat. Well, I guess Death Ward might break a very specific undead campaign, but I played a cleric in an undead campaign and that spell was simply keeping us alive, and not even that. Take Energy Immunity: it's awesome when you fight a dragon. But it doesn't win you the battle! The dragon can still full-attack you for pain, cast spells, modify its energy type when he sees your immunity. Compare to a Heightened Wings of Flurry: Reflex (read: fail) save for daze. Repeat. And it's just a simple, but strong, arcane spell.

[hymer]

I guess in the end, the discussion here is over what constitutes 'tier 1 power'. I think bringing people back from the dead is quite sufficient, so I'm kinda sold on both druids and clerics being tier 1 even with plenty of nerfs (I assume their versatility is uncontested).
Breaking a campaign is, of course, impossible if the DM uses fiat or similarly optimized NPCs (unless the campaign breaks because the rocketlauncher tag got out of hand and ended in TPK or the premature death of BBEG).
JaronK mentions fiat. Opposition from similarly tiered and optimized opponents he doesn't mention, which seems to indicate he's talking about, well, what? The 'average' campaign, whatever that is?
It's not likely to be the same before he wrote his thesis as it is now.

What is 'campaign breaking' anyway? Killing BBEG in the first session probably qualifies (or using minions to accomplish the session's goal off screen). But so, I think, does causing the other players to stop coming, because their PCs can't seem to do anything useful. That's more than campaign breaking, it's game breaking.

[Darth Stabber]

A 12th level sorcerer will have many spells from this list: Wings of Cover, Wings of Flurry, Arcane Fusion, Dominate Person, Solid Fog, Telekinesis, Wraithstrike, Invisibility, Fly, Greater Mirror Image, Contact Other Plane, the famous old Glitterdust and Grease. Those are all spells that either give you a disproportionate advantage over any other class, or win you encounters/challenges with one simple casting even at 12th level.

I'm having a real hard time finding even one cleric spell, not on the sorc/wiz list, that has the same ability to wreck encounters or challenges. But I'll try. Harm, Antilife Shell, Commune (lesser COP), Divine Insight, maybe Divine Agility? It's something, but it's very far from the might of the sorcerer. The cleric will have some problems finding an efficient and reliable source of flight!



Note my restrictions, which are the basis for this thread: one of them is, Shapechange does not exist. See below for a further reply.



Those are things that help, are useful, and do stuff. Very T3. Where is the COP that instantly triangulates a position of an enemy? Where is the Domination on a henchman? Or, looking at combat, where is the Mailman? SplitTwinMaximizedEmpowerChain Enervation? Even Mind Blank? Where is the move action no save daze 3/d? Or Arcane Spellsurge? Show me some tricks that bring cleric and druid on par with this, after my (very common) restrictions!

As Crinias shows, the druid can be played badly and become a competent melee. It surely has a high floor. Once you take the broken away, I'm not sure if the ceiling is that far away. You all say it is, so show me the T1 ceiling. Everyone is mentioning T3 kind of power.

Shapechange isn't even a real problem, zomg a 9th level spell doing something amazing how could that be:smallconfused:?

You are also conflating "I win button" level of power with what it takes to be tier 1. That is not what constitutes the type of problem resolution power needed to qualify as a "powerful option for resolving challenges", it needn't be so blatant. Tracking is a useful skill set that is part of ranger's shtick thematically and mechanically. A druid has survival on his skill list, and beyond that they have animal companions like wolves that are good at tracking. So even while mundane tracking is good, druid outshines the "tracker" class, and then when divinations are good enough to render it obsolete, druid has those, while all ranger gets is another off-hand attack (and to add insult to injury the druid has claw, claw, bite, improved grab, and more than enough strength to make all these things frightening).

And then you compare a very optimized incantrix mailman with normal clerics and druids. Not a fair or reasonable comparison. 1)as mentioned before, prcs affect tiering. 2) a tier2 specializing to that degree (even without a prc) is going to be better than a tier1 at that thing, but they will be less able to do thing outside that shtick (and for that reason I would consider a mailman to tier3, hey has significantly reduced his capacity at things that aren't twinned, splitray, arcane spell surge'd sonic orbs to the face), a mailman sorc still has a hard time out damaging an ubercharger. 3) wizards can do 95% the damage a mailman can do, by taking incantrix and picking up the other pieces that are available to him, and when he does it, he is still FAR more versatile, since he can prepare things that aren't that shtick and they are just as effective as any other wizard doing it. 4) if a gm is going to the trouble of banning all the broken spells, do you really think incantrix isn't going to get the banhammer? And arcane spellsurge? That is one cheesy spell, probably going to be banned too. 5) I may be the only person that says this, but DMM isn't all that broken providing you ban night sticks or stop them from stacking, especially considering how feat starved clerics can get.

What core druid spells are going to get banned? None of them are all that broken other than shapechange (and I don't think that's banworthy, as it's not as good for druids since they already have a good chunk of that functionality as a class feature), and I would happily consider a core only druid tier one, and in the same breath give sorcerers full access to the spell compendium and refer to him as tier2.

if you want cleric to do damage: righteous might and divine power both deliver combat resolution, and allow the cleric to out damage anything that doesn't have shocktrooper or incantrix levels.

[mucco]

@hymer:

It is a very interesting point you make clear. We had some discussion around it before. I am basing myself off JaronK, simply because it is the only thing that is commonly accepted. A user before speculated on his interpretation of T1, but until everyone else agrees with it, it is going to stay interpretation.

Maybe it is more feasible to define another concept, "campaign breaking", which is closely associated with the canon T1. Campaign breaking, from my DMish point of view, entails: consistently forcing encounters to play out differently than what I as DM predicted; or, consistently taking control of the encounters away from my hands by solving them instantly, when I am issuing challenges considered "standard".

Example:
DM: you see eight Frenzied Berserkers about to charge you.
Wizard: I cast Nerveskitter, go first, and cast Sculpt Grease on all of them. They cannot use Dex-based checks while in frenzy, therefore they cannot use Balance to move, therefore they are stuck in place with no save.

Consistently find shortcuts to the plot I as the DM have imagined, by using very strong spells in the right way.

DM: the army of the mighty Pit Fiend has slaughtered your families and brought the nation on the brink of war. You will have to collect four pieces of this artifact that will stop the Pit Fiend from controlling the army.
Wizard: I use Contact Other Plane eleventy times to find the Pit Fiend's position with a precision in micrometers; I cast Superior Invisibility on the entire party; I cast Greater Teleport to get to the Pit Fiend without him noticing; I wait until my allies are done mopping the ground after killing the Pit Fiend; I take the amulet that allowed the Pit Fiend to control the army, and control it myself and conquer the entire world.

Consistently outperform fellow party members.
DM: you face two similar hulking monsters.
Crusader: I charge one, smite, power attack and shock trooper (most of my build) for... let's say... 250 damage on a single attack.
Wizard: Time Stop, move in melee, Bite of the Werebear, Heroics for Power Attack, and let's burn some XP for a Limited Wish for Divine Power. End Time Stop, Wraithstrike, full power attack... 400 damage.

Stuff like that. I don't know how clerics and druids can pull such tricks off.

@Darth Stabber:
Well, for once, the Ranger is in a tier that will see him outperformed. Any character with Survival and the Track feat, and some more need for Wis than Ranger will be better at it than the Ranger. It is not a fair point for T1 Druid, just as DMM Persist vs. Fighter is not.

I said I shouldn't have included the Mailman in my example. It's a slip. About Incantatrix vs. Arcane Spellsurge, I usually ban the first and allow the second. Arcane Spellsurge has an inherent high-level slot cost, requires you to spend a feat to use properly, and is IMO a very fun spell perfectly in line with stuff like Avasculate. I agree that DMM is not broken, I think it's overrated and I always allow it. What I ban is, of course, Nightstick stacking or other methods to have excessive numbers of turn attempts.

Off the top of my head, I can't think of any other clearly high-power spell on the Druid list other than Shapechange. I find the Druid's core spell list to be weaker than the Beguiler's spell list, so by all means, show me the T1 where I am not seeing it. On cleric: Divine Power + Righteous Might = 3 feats and 14 turn attempts OR 2 standard actions, and that still << Ubercharger T4. It does certainly not provide combat resolution as well as other builds. It's somewhat weaker than an optimized Warblade, I find.

[Aegis013]

@hymer:

It is a very interesting point you make clear. We had some discussion around it before. I am basing myself off JaronK, simply because it is the only thing that is commonly accepted. A user before speculated on his interpretation of T1, but until everyone else agrees with it, it is going to stay interpretation.

Maybe it is more feasible to define another concept, "campaign breaking", which is closely associated with the canon T1. Campaign breaking, from my DMish point of view, entails: consistently forcing encounters to play out differently than what I as DM predicted; or, consistently taking control of the encounters away from my hands by solving them instantly, when I am issuing challenges considered "standard".

Example:
DM: you see eight Frenzied Berserkers about to charge you.
Wizard: I cast Nerveskitter, go first, and cast Sculpt Grease on all of them. They cannot use Dex-based checks while in frenzy, therefore they cannot use Balance to move, therefore they are stuck in place with no save.

Consistently find shortcuts to the plot I as the DM have imagined, by using very strong spells in the right way.

DM: the army of the mighty Pit Fiend has slaughtered your families and brought the nation on the brink of war. You will have to collect four pieces of this artifact that will stop the Pit Fiend from controlling the army.
Wizard: I use Contact Other Plane eleventy times to find the Pit Fiend's position with a precision in micrometers; I cast Superior Invisibility on the entire party; I cast Greater Teleport to get to the Pit Fiend without him noticing; I wait until my allies are done mopping the ground after killing the Pit Fiend; I take the amulet that allowed the Pit Fiend to control the army, and control it myself and conquer the entire world.

Consistently outperform fellow party members.
DM: you face two similar hulking monsters.
Crusader: I charge one, smite, power attack and shock trooper (most of my build) for... let's say... 250 damage on a single attack.
Wizard: Time Stop, move in melee, Bite of the Werebear, Heroics for Power Attack, and let's burn some XP for a Limited Wish for Divine Power. End Time Stop, Wraithstrike, full power attack... 400 damage.

Stuff like that. I don't know how clerics and druids can pull such tricks off.

@Darth Stabber:
Well, for once, the Ranger is in a tier that will see him outperformed. Any character with Survival and the Track feat, and some more need for Wis than Ranger will be better at it than the Ranger. It is not a fair point for T1 Druid, just as DMM Persist vs. Fighter is not.

I said I shouldn't have included the Mailman in my example. It's a slip. About Incantatrix vs. Arcane Spellsurge, I usually ban the first and allow the second. Arcane Spellsurge has an inherent high-level slot cost, requires you to spend a feat to use properly, and is IMO a very fun spell perfectly in line with stuff like Avasculate. I agree that DMM is not broken, I think it's overrated and I always allow it. What I ban is, of course, Nightstick stacking or other methods to have excessive numbers of turn attempts.

Off the top of my head, I can't think of any other clearly high-power spell on the Druid list other than Shapechange. I find the Druid's core spell list to be weaker than the Beguiler's spell list, so by all means, show me the T1 where I am not seeing it. On cleric: Divine Power + Righteous Might = 3 feats and 14 turn attempts OR 2 standard actions, and that still << Ubercharger T4. It does certainly not provide combat resolution as well as other builds. It's somewhat weaker than an optimized Warblade, I find.

If this "campaign breaking" you define here is your definition of T1 power, then that Samurai that Shneeky made would be T1 in plenty of games. Mass stare down all foes; many, many encounters ruined.

[ThiagoMartell]

I think one of the major problems here is the idea of the DM predicting the outcome of encounters. Most of the time, you shouldn't do that. Players surprise you, that's simply what players do, and that has very little to do with class.

According to mucco's definition of gamebreaking, if the PCs decide to ally themselves with orcs instead of killing them, they are breaking the game. If the PCs decide to attack the paladins instead of allying with them, they are breaking the game. If a PC manages to get a high DC Diplomacy check, he'd be breaking the game as well. Using Love's Pain instead of Scorching Ray to kill Monster X does not break the game, however, according to that definition. (the DM predicted Monster X to die). Nor does dominating Drizzt (the DM predicted Drizzt to help).

This is mainly a pet peeve of mine, but "I expect players to do X" seems like a good way to force your game into rails and that's rarely a good thing. Just go with the flow.

Sorry to disturb the discussion, I realize this is slightly off-topic.

[Socratov]

My portfolio sense is tingling!
Pretty much, yeah. Factotum being above Warlock when it needs more optimization to do the same things Warlock can do with a single feat and a dip in Chameleon is very very weird.

Also, congratulations everyone for a very civil tier discussion.

Well, the Factotum eventually grows more powerful by emulating another's abilites. However, in the tier system the warlock is only just 4, very close to tier 3 because the power potential is lacking. for the rest the warlock is great, versatile and a great class to learn play (it basically features jsut about everything in DnD without needing brains. Most of the options are easy to locate andit can handle jsut about any kind of playsstyle you want). the potential for power would be solved by increasing the number of invocations and increasing the EB damage. But other then that the warlock is fine.

Besideson the topic of optimization, mind you that optimizing is often using prestigeclasses and dips. those are not accounted for in teh tierlist. the tierlist is about 1 class and the whole class at that, with only feats, spells, ACF's and substitution levels available to optimize in. Equipment (weapons excepted for martial classes), dips, PrC's are not accounted for becuase then it would depend on who can buy the best things. that is where the Warlock loses. he needs a dip of some kind or PRC, he needs some equipment badly, he needs all those things to make himslef better and more useful and focused. If you coubnt equipment, the tier system is all about spellcasting and potential for reaching those UMD DC's and who can get the best equipment to solve just about anything (even though an at will staff of summoning angels Gate shuld be enough).

[ThiagoMartell]

Well, the Factotum eventually grows more powerful by emulating another's abilites. However, in the tier system the warlock is only just 4, very close to tier 3 because the power potential is lacking. for the rest the warlock is great, versatile and a great class to learn play (it basically features jsut about everything in DnD without needing brains. Most of the options are easy to locate andit can handle jsut about any kind of playsstyle you want). the potential for power would be solved by increasing the number of invocations and increasing the EB damage. But other then that the warlock is fine.
I disagree, because Warlock is very versatile and has potential for amazing damage and debuffing (eldritchglaive + essence or eldritch claws).


Besideson the topic of optimization, mind you that optimizing is often using prestigeclasses and dips. those are not accounted for in teh tierlist.
Factotum takes into account both having Iaijutsu Focus and a gnome quickrazor. That's optimization.

the tierlist is about 1 class and the whole class at that, with only feats, spells, ACF's and substitution levels available to optimize in.
ACFs are usually not considered or at least considered separately (after all, Paladin jumps to high T3 with the right ACFs) but otherwise agreed.


Equipment (weapons excepted for martial classes), dips, PrC's are not accounted for becuase then it would depend on who can buy the best things. that is where the Warlock loses.
Disagreed, because equipment is considered if you can craft it (that's what keeps Artificer in t1). Warlocks can craft.


he needs a dip of some kind or PRC, he needs some equipment badly, he needs all those things to make himslef better and more useful and focused. If you coubnt equipment, the tier system is all about spellcasting and potential for reaching those UMD DC's and who can get the best equipment to solve just about anything (even though an at will staff of summoning angels Gate shuld be enough).
You have basically described the Artificer here. :smallsmile:

[Socratov]

I disagree, because Warlock is very versatile and has potential for amazing damage and debuffing (eldritchglaive + essence or eldritch claws).


Factotum takes into account both having Iaijutsu Focus and a gnome quickrazor. That's optimization.

ACFs are usually not considered or at least considered separately (after all, Paladin jumps to high T3 with the right ACFs) but otherwise agreed.


Disagreed, because equipment is considered if you can craft it (that's what keeps Artificer in t1). Warlocks can craft.


You have basically described the Artificer here. :smallsmile:

Well, all things considered the Artificer is an exception to the rule though since otherwise he can't be placed on the tiersystem. so it's considered for him that he can make his equipment since its a staple of the class. Besides, for the warlock to craft everything he'd better bring a heap more exp (which the artificer can substitute with crafting points) because he will lose his levels very quickly. Granted, the warlock is almost as good, but has actual other features then "make this thing"

[hymer]

@ Aegis013: To be fair, that's tier one power. That alone doesn't qualify something for tier 1, after all - you need versatility. Could be 4, perhaps ("Capable of doing one thing quite well, but often useless when encounters require other areas of expertise").

[ThiagoMartell]

Well, all things considered the Artificer is an exception to the rule though since otherwise he can't be placed on the tiersystem.
Not really, there is more to the class than crafting. Infusions are considerably potent. In fact, even an Artificer that crafts nothing would probably be t3 at worst.

so it's considered for him that he can make his equipment since its a staple of the class. Besides, for the warlock to craft everything he'd better bring a heap more exp (which the artificer can substitute with crafting points) because he will lose his levels very quickly. Granted, the warlock is almost as good, but has actual other features then "make this thing"
So why shouldn't items be considered a staple of the Warlock, since it gets take 10 on UMD as a class feature and it can craft items?
I've said this before, but JaronK's list is biased. It uses an optimized Factotum compared to an unoptimized Warlock. It considers Power Attack+Leap Attack+Shock Trooper practically a Barbarian class feature but ignores eldritch glaive. It allows Artificers to craft and largely ignores that almost everyone else can do that. Even worse, it allows Artificer casting (UMD based) and does not count UMD for anyone else (except, of course, for Factotum).

[eggs]

Wizard: I use Contact Other Plane eleventy times to find the Pit Fiend's position with a precision in micrometers; I cast Superior Invisibility on the entire party; I cast Greater Teleport to get to the Pit Fiend without him noticing; I wait until my allies are done mopping the ground after killing the Pit Fiend; I take the amulet that allowed the Pit Fiend to control the army, and control it myself and conquer the entire world.

...

Wizard: Time Stop, move in melee, Bite of the Werebear, Heroics for Power Attack, and let's burn some XP for a Limited Wish for Divine Power. End Time Stop, Wraithstrike, full power attack... 400 damage.

Stuff like that. I don't know how clerics and druids can pull such tricks off.
Just grabbing a sample Cleric, something like Cloistered Cleric of the Traveler 12

6: Heal, Mislead, Summon Monster 6, [Open]
5: Doomtide, Greater Command, Summon Monster 5, True Seeing, Wall of Stone
4: Air Walk, Confusion, Dampen Magic, Dimension Anchor, Haunt Shift
3: Black Sand, Dispel Magic x2, Invisibility Purge, Nondetection, Wind Wall
2: Benediction x2, Desecrate, Guidance of the Avatar, Invisibility, Resist Energy, Silence, Turn Anathema
1: Disguise Self, Ebon Eyes, Resurgence x2, Sign x2, Summon Monster 1 x3
0: Whatever

Spontaneous casting from Travel Domain
Maxed Bluff, Concentration, Diplomacy, Hide, Spellcraft, half-ranked Know: Arcana, Religion, Planes, Nobility

[And 88ish HD of desecrated undead under its various types of command, plus Deeper Darkness, Extended Magic Vestment x2 and Superior Resistance cast each night the day before action]

Automatically solve search tasks by prepping/using divinations
Domineer combats by swamping the action economy with summons and undead screens (autohealing forever with Black Sand) and immediate action counterspells via Divine Defiance
Be difficult to kill with invisibility/mislead + high saves/HP, heals and rerolls via Benediction and Resurgence
Shut the baddies down by casting Dampen Magic (ie. bargain-bin AMF) on a big undead grappler and letting it engage (maybe chucking in Dimension Anchor or Silence for good measure)
Make snap spellcasting calls with summons or spontaneous flight/teleports from Travel domain
Problem-solve just about anything by Haunt Shifting any Huge or smaller object into your animated thrall
Battlefield control with Doomtide, Wall of Stone and Wind Wall.
Ignore big swaths of enemies and attacks via utility/defensive buffs like Air Walk, True Seeing and Resist Energy.
Shoot for the quick encounter-win with Greater Command, Confusion, Silence, and Turn Anathema


Or it could use its summon monster V to summon 1d4+1 mustevals to cast Invisibility on its party, Teleport to a Balor and step through the motions of whacking it, taking its ring, etc.

If wraithstrike is enough for a Wizard to be gamebreaking, an Ice Axing Cleric can put it to shame - especially when Ice axe gets some quickening via Quicken, Circlet of Rapid Casting, Metamagic rods, etc.

EDIT: Some posts between when I started typing and hit post, so quoted for context.

[hymer]

This is besides the argument, but I'd just like to point out that invisibility does nothing against a true seeing balor (which, as far as I know, is all of them). Just, you know, wanted to throw that out there for good measure. Does nothing to the validity of the arguments, and doesn't matter to the substance of the examples. Okay? No harm intended.

[Gwendol]

Not to mention the fact that the cleric already has better BAB, strength, etc through righteous might/divine power/etc, and therefore get more attacks in with the ice axe as well as (likely) power attacking for full. The druid gets flame blade very early on, which also attacks vs touch.

Wings of Cover: I don't get it? Is this considered that good? It only gives cover for one attack, so against your typical pounce-charging barbarian it protects against the first iterative. Not to mention the fact that the sorcerer can't be flat-footed at the time of the attack... I'm guessing your typical 12-level rogue should be able to slip past that one with little trouble.

Furthermore, many of the spells you mentioned the cleric may have access to through domains, while the same does not necessarily hold true for the sorcerer. Hence, the versatility and power of the cleric.

[Anzyr]

Not really, there is more to the class than crafting. Infusions are considerably potent. In fact, even an Artificer that crafts nothing would probably be t3 at worst.

So why shouldn't items be considered a staple of the Warlock, since it gets take 10 on UMD as a class feature and it can craft items?
I've said this before, but JaronK's list is biased. It uses an optimized Factotum compared to an unoptimized Warlock. It considers Power Attack+Leap Attack+Shock Trooper practically a Barbarian class feature but ignores eldritch glaive. It allows Artificers to craft and largely ignores that almost everyone else can do that. Even worse, it allows Artificer casting (UMD based) and does not count UMD for anyone else (except, of course, for Factotum).

(/AFB please disregard minor rules issues.)

I think the easiest way to show that a Factotum reaches Tier 3 status, while the Warlock languishes in Tier 4 is pretty evident when you look at each classes capabilities in a vacuum of only the PHB and their respective books. This bars things like Iaijutsu Focus and a gnome quickrazor, but quite frankly, the Factotum's versatility and power could care less. No really keep the minor additional d6's.

Factotums right out the gate are better then you at skills, which skill? It's right there in the description, all of them. They get a class ability list that essentially reads "Versatility: the Class". They get (limited, but with higher accessible spell levels than even other 3/4 BAB casters) access to the best spell list in the game, with SLA shenanigans if that's your bag. That's on top of INT to well... basically everything and in some cases, in addition to. This doesn't even touch on their minor in class healing or limited Turn Undead.

Oh right and they can in the first round of an encounter, simply laugh at the concept of limited actions and they can do this every encounter in exactly the amount called for. That encounter where you really really need 4 Standard actions in a turn, Factotum has you covered. Doing so will stretch it thin on the next few turns, but that's assuming the problem isn't already solved. None of this even touches on the fact the high level factotums can just plain out steal (limited but still outright theft) of other classes abilities.

What does a PHB + Complete Arcane Warlock do? Deal reliable but minor damage as a touch attack? Spam one or two useful spells all day that you can't change once picked? Apply a few minor conditions but only at a level people are probably rocking immunity? (Sure infinite negative levels sounds cool until you try it in high level play.)Take 10 on UMD so we can bring partially charged wands into the dicussion? (In which case, the Rogue would like to have a chat) The crafting which comes online at 12th? I'll freely admit I'm not the best informed individual, but I'm genuinely curious, what possible Warlock could be built using PHB and Complete Arcane that would manage to break into Tier 3, because frankly, I'm not seeing it.

[ThiagoMartell]

I think the easiest way to show that a Factotum reaches Tier 3 status, while the Warlock languishes in Tier 4 is pretty evident when you look at each classes capabilities in a vacuum of only the PHB and their respective books. This bars things like Iaijutsu Focus and a gnome quickrazor, but quite frankly, the Factotum's versatility and power could care less. No really keep the minor additional d6's.
That would be optimal. I really wish JaronK took this approach.
This is the reason why I'm pointing a bias - his Factotum rocks Font of Inspiration, Iaijutsu Focus and a Blurstrike Gnome Quickrazor. His Warlock is limited to Complete Arcane.


Factotums right out the gate are better then you at skills, which skill? It's right there in the description, all of them. They get a class ability list that essentially reads "Versatility: the Class". They get (limited, but with higher accessible spell levels than even other 3/4 BAB casters) access to the best spell list in the game, with SLA shenanigans if that's your bag. That's on top of INT to well... basically everything and in some cases, in addition to. This doesn't even touch on their minor in class healing or limited Turn Undead.
Yeah, skills are their thing. No one argued against that.


Oh right and they can in the first round of an encounter, simply laugh at the concept of limited actions and they can do this every encounter in exactly the amount called for. That encounter where you really really need 4 Standard actions in a turn, Factotum has you covered.
Mind, how are you getting so many Inspiration Points when Cunning Surge costs 3 per action, you only get 7 by the level you get it and you don't have access to Font of Inspiration since you're restricted to Core + Dungeonscape?


None of this even touches on the fact the high level factotums can just plain out steal (limited but still outright theft) of other classes abilities.
Funny you should mention that, because Factotums get the ability to steal the best ability in the game (spellcasting) by spending a few gold pieces at level 4. It gets even better at level 12, when they get to craft magical items.


What does a PHB + Complete Arcane Warlock do? Deal reliable but minor damage as a touch attack? Spam one or two useful spells all day that you can't change once picked? Apply a few minor conditions but only at a level people are probably rocking immunity? (Sure infinite negative levels sounds cool until you try it in high level play.)Take 10 on UMD so we can bring partially charged wands into the dicussion? (In which case, the Rogue would like to have a chat) The crafting which comes online at 12th? I'll freely admit I'm not the best informed individual, but I'm genuinely curious, what possible Warlock could be built using PHB and Complete Arcane that would manage to break into Tier 3, because frankly, I'm not seeing it.
There is a link to the Warlock handbook in my sig. You might notice invocations are better than you think. Also, Rogues can't take 10 with UMD, even with Skill Mastery.
I don't think a Core + Complete Arcane Warlock might be tier 3, though. It only gets there once you add the ridiculous damage it can acquire from it's melee options. Then again, I don't think a Core + Dungeonscape Factotum is tier 3 as well. Cunning Surge might seem awesome, but under such environments a Factotum can hardly do anything with it's actions and the things it can do cost inspiration points. With such limited book selection and the very slow rate at which it gets spells, a Factotum is actually less versatile in problem solving than a Warlock, because many scenarios can be solved with a single spell and the Factotum can't even repeat those.

[Socratov]

Not really, there is more to the class than crafting. Infusions are considerably potent. In fact, even an Artificer that crafts nothing would probably be t3 at worst.

So why shouldn't items be considered a staple of the Warlock, since it gets take 10 on UMD as a class feature and it can craft items?
I've said this before, but JaronK's list is biased. It uses an optimized Factotum compared to an unoptimized Warlock. It considers Power Attack+Leap Attack+Shock Trooper practically a Barbarian class feature but ignores eldritch glaive. It allows Artificers to craft and largely ignores that almost everyone else can do that. Even worse, it allows Artificer casting (UMD based) and does not count UMD for anyone else (except, of course, for Factotum).
that's because an optimized warlock is built with dips and PRC's (not mentioning claws since they are Dragon mag stuff)

(/AFB please disregard minor rules issues.)

I think the easiest way to show that a Factotum reaches Tier 3 status, while the Warlock languishes in Tier 4 is pretty evident when you look at each classes capabilities in a vacuum of only the PHB and their respective books. This bars things like Iaijutsu Focus and a gnome quickrazor, but quite frankly, the Factotum's versatility and power could care less. No really keep the minor additional d6's.

Factotums right out the gate are better then you at skills, which skill? It's right there in the description, all of them. They get a class ability list that essentially reads "Versatility: the Class". They get (limited, but with higher accessible spell levels than even other 3/4 BAB casters) access to the best spell list in the game, with SLA shenanigans if that's your bag. That's on top of INT to well... basically everything and in some cases, in addition to. This doesn't even touch on their minor in class healing or limited Turn Undead.

Oh right and they can in the first round of an encounter, simply laugh at the concept of limited actions and they can do this every encounter in exactly the amount called for. That encounter where you really really need 4 Standard actions in a turn, Factotum has you covered. Doing so will stretch it thin on the next few turns, but that's assuming the problem isn't already solved. None of this even touches on the fact the high level factotums can just plain out steal (limited but still outright theft) of other classes abilities.

What does a PHB + Complete Arcane Warlock do? Deal reliable but minor damage as a touch attack? Spam one or two useful spells all day that you can't change once picked? Apply a few minor conditions but only at a level people are probably rocking immunity? (Sure infinite negative levels sounds cool until you try it in high level play.)Take 10 on UMD so we can bring partially charged wands into the dicussion? (In which case, the Rogue would like to have a chat) The crafting which comes online at 12th? I'll freely admit I'm not the best informed individual, but I'm genuinely curious, what possible Warlock could be built using PHB and Complete Arcane that would manage to break into Tier 3, because frankly, I'm not seeing it.

his lvl 12 classfeature allows him to craft anything as long as he can meet the spellcraft check for the spell involved. No matter if it's arcane, divine, it's level or on whatever list the requirement is, as long as he has the relevant crafting feats. a 20 lvl warlock could do that. Build rods, staves, woundrous items, you name it. as long as he has the feat it's done. and since he could craft above his level (he only needs to meet the Spellcraft DC) and without the ingredients to the spell he could break the game with wish with a lowly crafted ring with only a tiny bit of EXP for an otherwise very expensive item (xp wise), and add a miracle on top of it. just because he can

[ThiagoMartell]

that's because an optimized warlock is built with dips and PRC's (not mentioning claws since they are Dragon mag stuff)

Not necessarily, no.
Just taking an item creation feat and choosing good invocations/essences makes a lot of difference. Mortalbane, Eldritch Glaive, Quicken SLA, Vitriolic Blast are all good options completely ignored by JaronK. He never even mentions the bunch of items that boost eldritch glaive, that any warlock could craft at level 12. Take the feat, craft whatever you want, trade it away via retraining/Psychic Reformation/Dark Chaos Shuffle if you want.
This is less optimized than JaronK's Factotum and considerably more powerful.

[Anzyr]

that's because an optimized warlock is built with dips and PRC's (not mentioning claws since they are Dragon mag stuff)


his lvl 12 classfeature allows him to craft anything as long as he can meet the spellcraft check for the spell involved. No matter if it's arcane, divine, it's level or on whatever list the requirement is, as long as he has the relevant crafting feats. a 20 lvl warlock could do that. Build rods, staves, woundrous items, you name it. as long as he has the feat it's done. and since he could craft above his level (he only needs to meet the Spellcraft DC) and without the ingredients to the spell he could break the game with wish with a lowly crafted ring with only a tiny bit of EXP for an otherwise very expensive item (xp wise), and add a miracle on top of it. just because he can

Now, I'm still AFB, but near-ish to 12th a Factotum has access to planar binding, and therefore the Wish Economy. Furthermore, the Factotum does not require a 3 month crafting period and can just hop right into TO, so if we're playing with infinite wishes (which at least in my mind is TO territory) the Factotum is still coming out well ahead of the Warlock at similar optimization levels. (Not to mention all the other fun things spells can do that Warlock's crafting will never give him). I'm really not seeing any bias for the Factotum being tier 3.

[nedz]

I thought that the argument was that Warlock + Chameleon 2 = Tier 3 — because of the floating feat for Item Creation / Extra Invocation.

Warlock 6 + Chameleon 2 gets to choose a new least invocation every day.
Warlock 12 + Chameleon 2 can make any item and gets to choose a new lesser or least invocation every day.

YMMV with this argument, but there it is.

[hymer]

Warlock 12 + Chameleon 2 can make any item and gets to choose a new lesser or least invocation every day.

Not quite. Making a Rod of Quicken Spell requires the Quicken Spell feat, e.g. But maybe 99% of all items.

[Socratov]

Now, I'm still AFB, but near-ish to 12th a Factotum has access to planar binding, and therefore the Wish Economy. Furthermore, the Factotum does not require a 3 month crafting period and can just hop right into TO, so if we're playing with infinite wishes (which at least in my mind is TO territory) the Factotum is still coming out well ahead of the Warlock at similar optimization levels. (Not to mention all the other fun things spells can do that Warlock's crafting will never give him). I'm really not seeing any bias for the Factotum being tier 3.
well, think about what you just said. Infinite wish economy. Warlock can (given enough crafting EXP) do it legally (by crafting the stuff or crafting planarbinding stuff, or whatever) without calling for shenanigans to create loopholes. Given the crafting time, factotum can do it once per day, warlock as long as he has charges left.

I thought that the argument was that Warlock + Chameleon 2 = Tier 3 — because of the floating feat for Item Creation / Extra Invocation.

Warlock 6 + Chameleon 2 gets to choose a new least invocation every day.
Warlock 12 + Chameleon 2 can make any item and gets to choose a new lesser or least invocation every day.

YMMV with this argument, but there it is.

there it indeed it (otherwise then the fact that you can't beocme a chameleon at lvl 7, but ok)

[ThiagoMartell]

Now, I'm still AFB, but near-ish to 12th a Factotum has access to planar binding, and therefore the Wish Economy. Furthermore, the Factotum does not require a 3 month crafting period and can just hop right into TO, so if we're playing with infinite wishes (which at least in my mind is TO territory) the Factotum is still coming out well ahead of the Warlock at similar optimization levels. (Not to mention all the other fun things spells can do that Warlock's crafting will never give him). I'm really not seeing any bias for the Factotum being tier 3.

TO doesn't come into it, since every class can get access to infinite wishes at lower levels due to Pazuzu. A Factotum does need have access to Planar Binding at level 12, only at level 15 (it gets lesser planar binding at 13, but that does not get wishes). In fact, every class can get access to planar ally before that, using the sacrifice rules in Book of Vile Darkness.

[Talderas]

I don't feel that is enough - take the Dread Necromancer. It can do the minion part better than a druid most likely, and at L12 he has Acid Fog and Waves of Exhaustion, which I personally find extremely powerful - much more so than Control Winds, especially since it's very easy to use. WoE effectively stops any charger dead in its tracks, with only a SR check.

The power of Dread Necro comes from a combination of effective minions and some powerful spellcasting. However its minions are still nowhere near as versatile as what a cleric can get from the planes. The Dread Necro's potency is also often times limited by what the DM is willing to throw at him that he can rebuke and command. The reason it falls into Tier 3 is the feat dependency and taxing that it undergoes. There's multiple ways to build a Dread Necromancer but the feat taxing for each method pretty much excludes being able to be effective at the other methods. Ultimately, the class still has a narrow spell list and on that grounds alone its versatility is limited to what its spells can do and the tactics it can apply with its minions.


A 12th level Warblade in melee with an enemy can have three allies surround the enemy, attack the monster, give every ally a free attack, give everyone a +6 damage, and then have an ally of his choice full attack, all in a single round. That is an amount of utility as strong as Control Winds' BC in my opinion.

That's a very contingent potency that requires your party to consist of 4 strong melee to make it effective. Having the wizard stand next to that enemy and giving him a free attack doesn't provide much of a benefit unless he can deliver some sort of special attack rather than a mundane melee attack.

The tier system itself is pretty well defined though you may disagree where certain classes sit within it but I think that has to do more or less with the amount of splat you apply to a class and the level of customization/optimization you allow.

[AmberVael]

A 12th level sorcerer will have many spells from this list: Wings of Cover, Wings of Flurry, Arcane Fusion, Dominate Person, Solid Fog, Telekinesis, Wraithstrike, Invisibility, Fly, Greater Mirror Image, Contact Other Plane, the famous old Glitterdust and Grease. Those are all spells that either give you a disproportionate advantage over any other class, or win you encounters/challenges with one simple casting even at 12th level.

I'm having a real hard time finding even one cleric spell, not on the sorc/wiz list, that has the same ability to wreck encounters or challenges. But I'll try. Harm, Antilife Shell, Commune (lesser COP), Divine Insight, maybe Divine Agility? It's something, but it's very far from the might of the sorcerer. The cleric will have some problems finding an efficient and reliable source of flight!

I still make my argument that notably powerful spells are not required for Tier 1 (making a distinction between overpowered, powerful, and simply effective), but the idea that the Cleric and Druid classes do not have such spells is rather silly. I like some of your spells, but even ignoring a lot of the awesome overlaps between Sorcerer and Wizard lists (which counts for a lot of the might of both sets of classes, I might add!), the divine casters get some good stuff.

For the Cleric:

Sanctuary. *waves hand* You don't want to harm the cleric. You want to reconsider this encounter. Put down your weapon, because it's not doing anything.

Substitute Domain. 'Cause swapping out entire lists of spells as you desire to get all the good spells from all the other lists is hilarious. Also just a second level spell.

Augury: "Hey god, is it going to be a good idea to charge into this room that we don't know is covered in hidden explosive ninja assassins?" "ALL SIGNS POINT TO NO." Simple but versatile low level divination spells are awesome. The wizard may end encounters... cleric can just avert them.

Divination: Because Augury but with long term implications is even better.

Delay Death. On its own it's just okay, but when you pair it off with abilities to remain standing while in negatives, it becomes crazy. Have a Frenzied Berserker? Does your Factotum have autohypnosis (and they should because that's a great skill)? Anyone have Diehard for some reason? Then toss Delay Death on them and they're pretty much invincible for a while. If nothing else, it's an immediate action button that prevents the need to spend tons of gold on resurrecting an ally and making them slightly weaker, so not a bad spell even then.

Surge of Fortune. Because Moment of Prescience wasn't good enough, apparently. Yes, Surge of Fortune is a 5th level spell. Yes, it's only 1/round per level. However, it gives you the ability to simply declare "I roll a 20," and that is pretty priceless. One auto hit, one successful save, one spell that succeeds- often, that's enough to change the balance of an encounter right there.

Death Ward. That necromancer looks way less scary now that none of her instant death spells can touch you. Or her high damage negative energy spells. Or her negative level spells. In fact, this encounter sounds like a pushover now.

Divine Power: So man, imagine like, you know, a fighter. But with spells. Yeaaaah. This is one of the key spells for turning a cleric into a massive damage dealer for a fight. The criticism of ubercharger and such builds is rarely that they're not effective at dealing damage- more that it's all they can do. Slap that capability on a cleric, and they'll blow through a fight and still have spells for everything else.

Antilife Shell. Apparently Sanctuary isn't good enough. So just keep all living things away from you and everyone around you, no save, don't pass go, don't collect $200.

Blasphemy/Holy Word/Whatever. No save, just lose. Requires a bit of a higher caster level to do right, but that's not too hard. This verges into the broken spells territory though. Also, beware lest you receive what you give. People really don't use this spell because they don't want the DM to use it back at them. :smalltongue:

Panacea: Cures what ails you. Whatever it is. I don't even bother making heal checks, I just cast the spell.

Resurgence and Resurgence, Mass. You know what's bad? Spellcasters and enemies that hit all your allies with save or lose type effects. Kinda one of the things wizards are good at, in fact. So one of your friends is dominated, what do you do? Resuuurgeeence! Reroll that saving throw and get some better luck for them.

Also, I want to note that a cleric has pretty much all the good divination powers on the Wizard/Sorcerer list. And I dispute commune being the "lesser" contact other plane. Yeah, okay, you can only get a yes or no answer. But you know how many things can be phrased as yes or no questions? And technically, deities can answer with more than that if they want to. And Commune doesn't fail- contact other plane can (even at a wizard's best, it has a 12% failure rate per question). Commune also gives you twice as many answers. Commune rocks. It's no "lesser" spell.

For the Druid:
Entangle. Because Web needed to be lower level. Maybe people will have freedom of movement later on, but at first level? This ends encounters better than all kinds of other spells.

Snake's Swiftness, Mass. Okay, okay, it's on the Sorc/Wizard list too, but it's a spell level higher, so I think this counts. A 2nd level spell that lets all allies attack once. Good if you're pressed for time, or just need to prevent the big bad from getting another round. If a Druid wants to match a Warblade's ability to grant all his allies free attacks, this is what the Druid uses. Except, they can get it at level 3. And if they don't have melee capable allies, unlike the Warblade, they can just make some melee capable allies. At level 12, they'll be able to quicken this spell and do something else with the rest of their round. Or instead of wasting the spell slots, metamagic rod.

Blinding Spittle. Make a ranged touch attack- if you hit, the target is blind. No save. 2nd level spell. You take a bit of a penalty on the attack roll, but on a blinding touch attack with no save, that's a pretty minor drawback.

Crumble. It's kinda like disintegrate except a little more limited and oh, also half its level. Fun for your random destructive urges.

Venomfire. Pretty much the king of all damage buffs. You know something is up when a lot of people consider a spell that only adds damage to be broken. Perhaps this one is too much, but if it isn't? Melee classes can just go home. They're done. Their services are no longer required. Druid's in charge.

Blizzard. With spells like Antilife Shell and Sanctuary, you might ward away some attackers. Blizzard, on the other hand simply ends combat, turns an open field into a prime ambush location, and just generally causes such mayhem that a wizard only wishes he could cast this spell. A druid armed with Blizzard can completely destroy all kinds of encounters.

Call Avalanche. Area save or lose. Reflex save based, which is pretty unusual. It does some damage, but that's not what you care about- the real effect is Buried in Snow. A lot of creatures can't make a DC 25 strength check, and digging them out takes a full minute.

Control Winds. There is a lot you can do with this spell, especially at higher levels. It is battleworthy, it can destroy the terrain, buildings, ships, stop siege weapons and ranged weapons... it's pretty terrifying, and you can continue to control and alter it through its duration.

Master Earth. It's greater teleport, except it only works on the material plane. Sounds like a downgrade, right? Well, think again- it's not actually a teleportation effect. Dimension Lock? Dimensional Anchor? Forbiddance? Druid doesn't care- if she wants to go there or go away from there, she does.

[Gwendol]

I still make my argument that notably powerful spells are not required for Tier 1, but the idea that the Cleric and Druid classes do not have such spells is rather silly. I like some of your spells, but even ignoring a lot of the awesome overlaps between Sorcerer and Wizard lists (which counts for a lot of the might of both sets of classes, I might add!), the divine casters get some good stuff.


Good list from both you and Eggs. Let me just point out that mucco has stated that the cleric or druid be not T1, but that a sorcerer is "always ten times better" (when planar ally is removed). I still haven't seen him address this completely unsupported claim.

[Anzyr]

I don't think a Core + Complete Arcane Warlock might be tier 3, though. It only gets there once you add the ridiculous damage it can acquire from it's melee options. Then again, I don't think a Core + Dungeonscape Factotum is tier 3 as well. Cunning Surge might seem awesome, but under such environments a Factotum can hardly do anything with it's actions and the things it can do cost inspiration points. With such limited book selection and the very slow rate at which it gets spells, a Factotum is actually less versatile in problem solving than a Warlock, because many scenarios can be solved with a single spell and the Factotum can't even repeat those.

Core + Dungeonscape Factotum can hardly do anything with an additional standard action per combat? I am taking into account a lack of Font of Inspiration (fancy but like the d6's from Iaijutsu Focus and Gnome Quickrazor totally unnecessary). An additional standard action per combat is always useful, on any class or character ever. I'm not sure what kind of Factotums you envisage when you made this comment, but even a commoner can make excellent use of extra standard actions. Admittedly, a factotums spell progression is slow and possesses limited uses, but it's still more versatile then other type casting short of the real (And two tiers higher) deal and vastly more versatile then a Warlock's even more limited invocations (which really further cements Factotum being tier 3 and Warlock tier 4.) I don't see how you can say that many encounters can be solved with a single spell, and then in the next breath say the Factotum can't repeat them. If a Warlock doesn't have the right invocation for the job, he's out of luck (Chameleon floating feat not part of this discussion). If you took Baleful Utterance, but what you really need is See the Unseen your just out of luck. While the Factotum might need a day, he has no such problem, he simply prepares what he needs and goes about his day.

(Note: Used you guide to list invocation names for this, and while there some effects that are downright useful, I'm really not seeing anything especially versatile compared to a Factotum, looking at your Purple selections: Baleful Utterance, The Dead Walk, Flee the Scene, Chilling Tentacles. Sure being able to shatter, animate dead, dimension door and black tentacles 24/7 is nice, but the ability to use something all day isn't that powerful in practice. It certainly not even close to as powerful as even the very slow Wizard casting a Factotum gets, sure it may take longer, but when you can end up with stuff like Alter Self, Shrink Item, Animate Dead, Magic Jar, Contingency, Planar Binding and Simulacrum in PHB really.... there's just no comparison.)



TO doesn't come into it, since every class can get access to infinite wishes at lower levels due to Pazuzu. A Factotum does need have access to Planar Binding at level 12, only at level 15 (it gets lesser planar binding at 13, but that does not get wishes). In fact, every class can get access to planar ally before that, using the sacrifice rules in Book of Vile Darkness.


While I admit YMMV, my understanding is that Pazuzu, Candles of Invocation, and planar binding Efreeti are TO. My point was that Socratov's attempt to show Warlock's crafting Ring of Wishes as something that makes them powerful to be unconvincing when as you pointed there are multiple other ways to do it earlier and it really shows nothing about class power.

[Aegis013]

@ Aegis013: To be fair, that's tier one power. That alone doesn't qualify something for tier 1, after all - you need versatility. Could be 4, perhaps ("Capable of doing one thing quite well, but often useless when encounters require other areas of expertise").

I realize this, I was simply saying that if mucco's given definition of "campaign breaking" was sufficient to qualify as T1, then that Samurai build would make it. Not that it actually is T1 within the more generally accepted definition.

[eggs]

Good list from both you and Eggs. Let me just point out that mucco has stated that the cleric or druid be not T1, but that a sorcerer is "always ten times better" (when planar ally is removed). I still haven't seen him address this completely unsupported claim.
Thanks. :smallsmile:

I just want to chime in to say that I don't really want to dogpile on this point specifically both because it seems like a confrontational path to take this thread and because the Sorcerer can be built to be pretty awesome.

Sorc's not too far from the top rung, and I do think certain builds can be competitive with the Druid/Spirit Shaman by exploiting big open-ended Sorcerer effects like Planar Binding, Polymorph, Animate Dread Warrior, Limited Wish, etc. while also using the Sorcerer's delicious action economy abuse to dominate the tactical game.

But if we're assuming anything that might be taken as a big open-ended campaign-breaking spells is banned, I agree - a sample spell list at a playable level would probably make everybody's points more clear.

And on the other side of the equation, the Cleric can look deceptively weak, especially if you're prepping spells out of just the PHB for a low- to mid-level cleric. There are pronounced themes there toward defense, numbers-buffing and only single-target Save-or-Xs - none of which are exactly gamechanging on their own. But I'm pretty sure we can demonstrate that the Cleric spell list is awesome (mostly because it is).


...when you can end up with stuff like Alter Self, Shrink Item, Animate Dead, Magic Jar, Contingency, Planar Binding and Simulacrum in PHB really.... there's just no comparison. ...
This argument gets fuzzy when Imbue Item comes into the picture. The Warlock can also ensure the party has access to all those effects - often earlier for the high-leveled ones, but this line of argument taps into a long list of campaign-dependent issues: the value of making an item v. building it, whether there will be downtime to build items, how WBL is treated with consumable goods, how experience is calculated, whether the party already has someone churning out spell-completion/trigger items for anyone who has the standard actions to use them, and so on.

[Darth Stabber]

The power of Dread Necro comes from a combination of effective minions and some powerful spellcasting. However its minions are still nowhere near as versatile as what a cleric can get from the planes. The Dread Necro's potency is also often times limited by what the DM is willing to throw at him that he can rebuke and command. The reason it falls into Tier 3 is the feat dependency and taxing that it undergoes. There's multiple ways to build a Dread Necromancer but the feat taxing for each method pretty much excludes being able to be effective at the other methods. Ultimately, the class still has a narrow spell list and on that grounds alone its versatility is limited to what its spells can do and the tactics it can apply with its minions.

Dread Necromancer also gets the planar binding spells. All they need is access to magic circle to make it work (weird that they don't get it automatically). So arcane disciple to the rescue. Yes not quite as good planar ally, but it isn't bad, and you picked up 8 other spells known along the way.

[mucco]

I think one of the major problems here is the idea of the DM predicting the outcome of encounters. Most of the time, you shouldn't do that. Players surprise you, that's simply what players do, and that has very little to do with class.

Yeah, no. One thing is surprising me because they find an interesting solution to a problem, which is entirely fine; another thing is having a build geared toward doing that every single time. This makes a DM's work simply impossible, as PCs are almighty. I'm perfectly fine with people finding a cheating solution every now and then, of course.


@ Aegis013: To be fair, that's tier one power. That alone doesn't qualify something for tier 1, after all - you need versatility. Could be 4, perhaps ("Capable of doing one thing quite well, but often useless when encounters require other areas of expertise").

Yes, Shneekey's Samurai is T4. It is also the ultimate example of the character which should never be played in a game, too. In any combat, it either makes everyone useless or is useless himself, which to my eyes is the antithesis of fun. It's a good thought exercise for me. I usually ban such silliness with great pleasure.


6: Heal, Mislead, Summon Monster 6, [Open]
5: Doomtide, Greater Command, Summon Monster 5, True Seeing, Wall of Stone
4: Air Walk, Confusion, Dampen Magic, Dimension Anchor, Haunt Shift
3: Black Sand, Dispel Magic x2, Invisibility Purge, Nondetection, Wind Wall
2: Benediction x2, Desecrate, Guidance of the Avatar, Invisibility, Resist Energy, Silence, Turn Anathema
1: Disguise Self, Ebon Eyes, Resurgence x2, Sign x2, Summon Monster 1 x3
0: Whatever

Haunt Shift is on my ban list. Aside from that, I'm not seeing any particular power increase from the Dread Necro. You have some summons, which add versatility but not power; you have Dampen Magic, which is a great trick and I'll give you that - still it's a very short duration, and the undead probably has to not be mindless to use it, which limits you. BC, well, the 88 HD will do more than any spell. I just don't see how this build is particularly more powerful than a Dread Necro - leaps more versatile, but well, duh.


For the Cleric:
Surge of Fortune. Because Moment of Prescience wasn't good enough, apparently. Yes, Surge of Fortune is a 5th level spell. Yes, it's only 1/round per level. However, it gives you the ability to simply declare "I roll a 20," and that is pretty priceless. One auto hit, one successful save, one spell that succeeds- often, that's enough to change the balance of an encounter right there.

Blasphemy/Holy Word/Whatever. No save, just lose. Requires a bit of a higher caster level to do right, but that's not too hard. This verges into the broken spells territory though. Also, beware lest you receive what you give. People really don't use this spell because they don't want the DM to use it back at them. :smalltongue:

And I dispute commune being the "lesser" contact other plane. Yeah, okay, you can only get a yes or no answer. But you know how many things can be phrased as yes or no questions? And technically, deities can answer with more than that if they want to. And Commune doesn't fail- contact other plane can (even at a wizard's best, it has a 12% failure rate per question).

For the Druid:
Snake's Swiftness, Mass. Okay, okay, it's on the Sorc/Wizard list too, but it's a spell level higher, so I think this counts. A 2nd level spell that lets all allies attack once. Good if you're pressed for time, or just need to prevent the big bad from getting another round. If a Druid wants to match a Warblade's ability to grant all his allies free attacks, this is what the Druid uses. Except, they can get it at level 3. And if they don't have melee capable allies, unlike the Warblade, they can just make some melee capable allies. At level 12, they'll be able to quicken this spell and do something else with the rest of their round. Or instead of wasting the spell slots, metamagic rod.

Blinding Spittle. Make a ranged touch attack- if you hit, the target is blind. No save. 2nd level spell. You take a bit of a penalty on the attack roll, but on a blinding touch attack with no save, that's a pretty minor drawback.

Venomfire. Pretty much the king of all damage buffs. You know something is up when a lot of people consider a spell that only adds damage to be broken. Perhaps this one is too much, but if it isn't? Melee classes can just go home. They're done. Their services are no longer required. Druid's in charge.

Blizzard. With spells like Antilife Shell and Sanctuary, you might ward away some attackers. Blizzard, on the other hand simply ends combat, turns an open field into a prime ambush location, and just generally causes such mayhem that a wizard only wishes he could cast this spell. A druid armed with Blizzard can completely destroy all kinds of encounters.

Call Avalanche. Area save or lose. Reflex save based, which is pretty unusual. It does some damage, but that's not what you care about- the real effect is Buried in Snow. A lot of creatures can't make a DC 25 strength check, and digging them out takes a full minute.

Especially on druid, nice list. I only left the spells that IMO can break encounters reliably, or where I want to reply. Cleric: Surge of Fortune is nice but it's mostly defensive and it's actually hard to use it in my experience (I've tried), and Holy Word is dangerous, a bit like Disjunction. It also requires a big CL increase to make it work well, which is something I usually limit/ban.
Commune, has a big problem. It puts the answer in the hands of the DM. So, you might not be getting the true answer for all sorts of campaign-related issues, because this god is doing that and doesn't want you to know X at the moment or anything else. Commune leaves control to the DM. COP doesn't do that. The other plane stuff, in this case, is just fluff - you get the correct answer 88% of the time. You are leaving the DM with 12% control over information in his game. And, well, just ask important things twice to get a very reliable answer. That is why COP is gamebreaking, and Commune is not.

Druid: Blinding Spittle has the touch attack. Druids typically have average ranged touch attacks, and a Will save would suit them better in many cases. Hey, if the spell were AoE and targeted with a Will save, it would be so much better! And why don't we also add a -40 to hide?
Snake's Swiftness: eh. It's only good because the druid has minions. It's really like a White Raven maneuver, but with a very very short battery. Metamagic rods shouldn't enter the equation, as they aren't class features, but they have a low battery too. And it's still T3 level power.
Avalanche: by that level, creatures who can't make a Strength DC 25, or teleport out, or use freedom of movement, are really rare. That spell is mostly a large area blast, and a pretty nice one.

All in all, your lists show some interesting abilities, but I'm still seeing T3 things. Nothing a decent DM will be caught powerless against.


And on the other side of the equation, the Cleric can look deceptively weak, especially if you're prepping spells out of just the PHB for a low- to mid-level cleric. There are pronounced themes there toward defense, numbers-buffing and only single-target Save-or-Xs - none of which are exactly gamechanging on their own. But I'm pretty sure we can demonstrate that the Cleric spell list is awesome (mostly because it is).

I wanted to concentrate on this part. I do agree that the Cleric list is awesome. I also think that under my requirements it's inferior to the Sorc/Wiz one by a longshot in terms of offensive power and T1ness, as defined by JaronK.

[Answerer]

Anima Mages aren't really "more evil" just... "crueler to vestiges"? They abuse them a lot more than other Binders, but no Binder really has a close relationship with them.

[olentu]

You know it would probably help the discussion if you would list out the specifics of the situation and what would be satisfactory proof. Without that information it becomes rather difficult to discuss considering that one side of the discussion has no idea what sort of random restrictions might pop up.

[eggs]

Aside from that, I'm not seeing any particular power increase from the Dread Necro.
Didn't I do everything you said made the Wizard T1 with the Cleric?

I mean, Commune->Find Balor, buff everybody out the ears (like hymer said, probably not with any form of Invisibility, but it's a Cleric; buffing isn't a problem), Greater Teleport from a domain* to the Balor, have the party (2/3 of which can be the Cleric's minions) stomp the Balor in the surprise round, take the macguffin.

Or, if we're doing the melee comparison, Time Stop from a domain*, buff yourself up (I probably don't need to break this down; buffing up is what Clerics do), stomp something with Power Attacked Ice Axe or Miracled Giant Size+Bite of the Werebear's +48 strength.

*Domains mean they're not on the general Cleric list, but they don't mean they're build-specific; Substitute Domain means you can shuffle domain picks around if you want.

Or if we're blasting, the Cleric can drop some DMM Twinned Summon Monster IXs for 2d3 Storm Elementals (mean 4; each blasting for 32d4+96d6 = mean 416 damage in the first round, plus 130ish damage from attacks v. AC 35 each subsequent round, compared to mean CR 20 HP of 409 (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19869122/Optimization_By_The_Numbers)) or Twinned Streamers to just ruin people's days.

Or the Cleric could always build for Divine Magician to get a good chunk of the crazy wizard stuff like Animate Dread Warrior, Anticipate Teleport, Enervation, Disjunction, Maw of Chaos, Antimagic Ray that it wants.

The Cleric easily has the second best spell list in the game. I think the reason the Cleric looks Dread Necromancer-caliber to you and the Sorcerer doesn't is that you're selectively banning the things you think are above Dread Necromancer-caliber from the Cleric list, but letting them ride for the Sorcerer.

[AmberVael]

Mucco, I don't think you're going to find better examples than the kinds of ones you've already been given at this point. If you feel that this means Druid and Cleric are tier 3, then I advise you to settle on that conclusion and simply accept that most people are going to disagree with you.

As a parting thought though, I want to suggest that you are being too dismissive of the various powers presented- if you can dismiss these spells and abilities, you can dismiss the wizard as being tier 1. You may benefit from an attempt to consider the wizard's spells apart from the hype and exaggeration that often gets thrown about with them, and really compare them to the kinds of spells that have been presented, and think about whether they're really that different in overall power.

As one last thing though, I want to make this specific point:


Commune, has a big problem. It puts the answer in the hands of the DM. So, you might not be getting the true answer for all sorts of campaign-related issues, because this god is doing that and doesn't want you to know X at the moment or anything else. Commune leaves control to the DM. COP doesn't do that. The other plane stuff, in this case, is just fluff - you get the correct answer 88% of the time. You are leaving the DM with 12% control over information in his game. And, well, just ask important things twice to get a very reliable answer. That is why COP is gamebreaking, and Commune is not.

From contact other plane:

On rare occasions, this divination may be blocked by an act of certain deities or forces.

What can be done to Commune can be done to Contact Other Plane. If a DM wants to fiat, they're given license to fiat either way.

[toapat]

The Tier system needs to be reworked, or at least expanded on.

It also needs to be corrected so that it actually follows the definitions it sets out. A warblade is versatile and extremely powerful. So long as he has someone's head to firmly plant into the dirt. The swordsage might be a low T3, but the warblade and the Crusader are not, because T3 requires the class to be useful outside of the one thing they inherently excel at. And no matter what people say, Combat is only one thing for the purposes of the tier system.

comparatively, a Rogue is pretty weak in combat, but a Rogue is still the second most effective skillmonkey in the game, loosing out to only the factotum in practical chimphood.

Paladin would be a good example of a class who also doesnt fit the mold. Paladin optimization definitely has a floor of T6, if you decide that the best way your paladin could contribute is as an unmounted archer without the elf substitution levels and keeping the horse. On the other hand, Paladins also have the highest optimization efficiency of any class, even more then Soulknife. The choice of either Serenity or Dynamic Priest as a third level feat automatically pushes them to a T4. Divine spirit (an ACF that outright laughs in the face of the Crusader) and Charging Smite also push paladin a tier ahead. The mount is a good class feature if you focus on it (granted, an EXTREMELY late one if it is central to your build). And you can replace remove disease with a number of alternatives which are better. Also interesting is that depending on how you define optimization, Prestiging as a paladin can actually be a net down 1 tier.

[Darth Stabber]

Divine spirit (an ACF that outright laughs in the face of the Crusader)

On what planet. I'll grant you that it is a good acf, but it doesn't jump the class a tier, even that + serenity +battle blessing isn't a tier jump.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

I think Serenity + Battle Blessing + Spell Compendium bumps the Paladin to low T4. Paladins have a low optimization floor and a decent optimization ceiling IME. The same can be said of Warlocks, who can suck terribly or do decently well depending on who's at the helm.

Looking at T3's first definition: "Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate"
If "combat" is a "thing," then I agree Crusader and Warblade are T4. If "a particular way of solving combat" is a "thing," then they fit right in. I think the latter interpretation is consistent with the way the list is constructed. Dungeoncrashers, Barbarians and Warmages are all basically one-trick-ponies, and they're the prototypical "combat" T4s. Every combat-oriented T3 is much more versatile and reliable in combat, so it's a bit dubious to put them in the same tier.

That said, it might be interesting to rank the classes' native abilities for general scenarios instead of overall. Social, Combat, Information-Gathering, and General Utility maybe?

[hymer]

@ toapat: Teach me about the warblade then. The original concept goes with three scenarios:


Situation 1: A Black Dragon has been plaguing an area, and he lives in a trap filled cave. Deal with him.

Situation 2: You have been tasked by a nearby country with making contact with the leader of the underground slave resistance of an evil tyranical city state, and get him to trust you.

Situation 3: A huge army of Orcs is approaching the city, and should be here in a week or so. Help the city prepare for war.

The warblade as I thought him would do well in the actual encounter with the dragon, and once the Orcs get to the city, he'll be hewing necks all day long. That doesn't strike me as particularly versatile, so what am I missing?

[Gwendol]

Mucco: you clearly view the divine casters with a different set of glasses, which more or less means this has become an exercise of futility. An example:


Druids typically have average ranged touch attacks

Compared to who? A sorcerer of the same level? A wizard? While the druid BAB progression is average, there is nothing to assume they aren't as good at hitting things at range as your typical rogue, for example.

[ThiagoMartell]

Core + Dungeonscape Factotum can hardly do anything with an additional standard action per combat? I am taking into account a lack of Font of Inspiration (fancy but like the d6's from Iaijutsu Focus and Gnome Quickrazor totally unnecessary). An additional standard action per combat is always useful, on any class or character ever. I'm not sure what kind of Factotums you envisage when you made this comment, but even a commoner can make excellent use of extra standard actions. Admittedly, a factotums spell progression is slow and possesses limited uses, but it's still more versatile then other type casting short of the real (And two tiers higher) deal and vastly more versatile then a Warlock's even more limited invocations (which really further cements Factotum being tier 3 and Warlock tier 4.) I don't see how you can say that many encounters can be solved with a single spell, and then in the next breath say the Factotum can't repeat them. If a Warlock doesn't have the right invocation for the job, he's out of luck (Chameleon floating feat not part of this discussion). If you took Baleful Utterance, but what you really need is See the Unseen your just out of luck. While the Factotum might need a day, he has no such problem, he simply prepares what he needs and goes about his day.
I'm not saying a Factotum can't solve encounters with spells, I'm saying Cunning Surge does not allow them to spam spells without Font of Inspiration.
Each spell a Factotum casts costs 1 inspiration point and each use of Cunning Surge costs 3. At level 20, a Factotum gets 10 inspiration points. This means he gets to cast 3 spells in a round. He can only do that at level 20, actually. That also means a complete nova (after all, he becomes nearly useless for the rest of the encounter and spends 1/3 of his daily allotment of spells) for Core + Dungeonscape Factotum means he will end an encounter. Oh, only one of those spells is 7th level. Are there good 6th level spells? Absolutely. Warlock gets some of those, at will, a level before the Factotum.
Is the Factotum more versatile? Absolutely, I'm not saying he isn't. What I'm saying is that it does not fit the definition of tier 3 (and neither does the warblade) since the Factotum is very limited in it's combat usefulness. Because of several complaints like this JaronK revealed he considered Iaijutsu Focus + Gnome Quickrazor + Font of Inspiration for his tiering of Factotum, which is inconsistent with how he treated other classes.



(Note: Used you guide to list invocation names for this, and while there some effects that are downright useful, I'm really not seeing anything especially versatile compared to a Factotum, looking at your Purple selections: Baleful Utterance, The Dead Walk, Flee the Scene, Chilling Tentacles. Sure being able to shatter, animate dead, dimension door and black tentacles 24/7 is nice, but the ability to use something all day isn't that powerful in practice. It certainly not even close to as powerful as even the very slow Wizard casting a Factotum gets, sure it may take longer, but when you can end up with stuff like Alter Self, Shrink Item, Animate Dead, Magic Jar, Contingency, Planar Binding and Simulacrum in PHB really.... there's just no comparison.)
Planar Binding is meaningless because everyone can get it, it does not depend on class.
Again, I'm not saying Warlock is as versatile as Factotum. What I'm saying is that Factotum has no encounter endurance since it runs out of spells fast and lacks offensive abilities until it gets very high in level and can get that from other class. JaronK claims the Factotum "does everything well" and that claim does not support itself unless you add extra damage so it can do something when it's out of IP and Font of Inspiration for it not to run out of IP. That is my point, that does not fit tier 3, same as Bard is not tier 3 without splatbook support. Warlock is also not tier 3 without splats, but once you add it's melee damage plus the other stuff it can do, it stays firmly in the middle of t3 (if you insist on putting martial adepts there) or at the bottom of it (if not).



While I admit YMMV, my understanding is that Pazuzu, Candles of Invocation, and planar binding Efreeti are TO.
And that's exactly what I said. :smallconfused:


My point was that Socratov's attempt to show Warlock's crafting Ring of Wishes as something that makes them powerful to be unconvincing when as you pointed there are multiple other ways to do it earlier and it really shows nothing about class power.
Well, no. Crafting items is not exactly cheese.

[toapat]

On what planet. I'll grant you that it is a good acf, but it doesn't jump the class a tier, even that + serenity +battle blessing isn't a tier jump.

Free action healing at the cost of a class liability. Mass heroism. DR. The Divine Spirit ACF is absurdly good.


@ toapat: Teach me about the warblade then. The original concept goes with three scenarios:

The warblade as I thought him would do well in the actual encounter with the dragon, and once the Orcs get to the city, he'll be hewing necks all day long. That doesn't strike me as particularly versatile, so what am I missing?

going off of those:

1: The warblade has nothing specific to them that helps them get past traps. Mountainhammer arguements are wrong, because anyone can chip away at a trap. Then we get to the dragon, and warblade doesnt have anything that helps him hit a flying dragon without High Op race choices or poor feat investment in shadow hand maneuvers. He isnt even proficient with ranged weapons.

2: The warblade is useless here. Diplomacy is their only skill or class feature that helps here, and this is primarily a search, spot, and gather information challenge.

3: The warblade is nigh-useless here. White raven tactics is only one person. Being able to pound head in quite well helps them prepare by having an additional sword arm, and they will have a very high Craft check if they took that up, but i dont know of a class that doesnt have Craft as a class skill. If this was Help and then fight the army, then we could weigh this more in favor of the Warblade, because the warblade can run Stone Dragon or Iron Heart (although i may be wrong with iron heart, being ive never read it and im AFB) to pound head all day long and establish an island of death in the enemy lines. But this isnt a challenge for that. this is a challenge for bards.

[hymer]

@ toapat: That sounds like tier 4 to me, then. Good at one thing (killing things in melee), but not very useful outside this area of expertise. As I said, not particularly versatile.
Or is there something these examples don't cover?

[toapat]

@ toapat: That sounds like tier 4 to me, then. Good at one thing (killing things in melee), but not very useful outside this area of expertise. As I said, not particularly versatile.
Or is there something these examples don't cover?

I said that they are T4.

as far as i can tell, these challenges are specifically to support the 4 types of gameplay. Mountainhammer comes close into meeting part of the first challenge, but that is negated by the fact that Mountainhammer is actually just a replacement for what should be standard equipment, which would be an Adamantine Mining Pick (a mundane item that only costs 1100g at that).

basically, there are 5 tiers in the versatility group:

VE (Extrapolation): Classes who have to be judged on a game by game basis. most obviously these are Artificer, Paladin, and Ranger.
V1: Classes that can be good at many things simultaneously.
V2: Classes that can be good at one thing and participate when that one thing isnt relevant
V3+3X: Classes that can be good at one thing. 3X specifies classes which have broad numbers of things they can be viable at.
V4: Classes which functionally do not excel at any one thing without extreme optimization. (knight for instance falls down a relative tier), and classes which do not work as written.

Then, there is the 6 tiered Endurance group:

EE: Classes who have to be judged game by game
E1: Can well exceed 6/day encounters. The Initiators are exceptional here.
E2: Can effectively perform in 4-5 encounters per day
E3: Can effectively perform in 3 encounters per day
E4: Can effectively Perform in 2 Encounters per day
E5: Can effectively perform in 1 or less encounters per day.


And finally, we have the Power system, which is best represented by taking the OpCieling of a given class.

P1: Combat is able to be rendered irrelevant in multiple ways
P2: Rigged combat is relevant
P3: Challenged by combat
P4: Difficulty succeeding in combat
P5: Incapable of contributing in combat.


combined, you want a class score of V2 E2 P3.

Warblade from what i understand would be a V3 E1 P2 class

[AmberVael]

E5: Can effectively perform in 1 or less encounters per day. Factotum is the posterboy of this.

Uh...
Can you explain your reasoning behind this? What brings you to the conclusion that Factotum is only good for one encounter every day?

[Kazyan]

Uh...
Can you explain your reasoning behind this? What brings you to the conclusion that Factotum is only good for one encounter every day?

Perhaps a misreading that Inspiration Points are 1/day instead of 1/encounter? That would make the "K, I take a gorillion standard actions now" thing the same as a nova.

[toapat]

Perhaps a misreading that Inspiration Points are 1/day instead of 1/encounter? That would make the "K, I take a gorillion standard actions now" thing the same as a nova.

i was more thinking of the fact that their limitation is they can only do non-spell buff effects, such as the Iaijutsu slash 1/day. Ill remove that note then

[Menteith]

i was more thinking of the fact that their limitation is they can only do non-spell buff effects, such as the Iaijutsu slash 1/day. Ill remove that note then

With a Gnomish Quickrazor, Iaijutsu Focus can trigger off every melee attack on a Flat Footed enemy - it's not limited in how often it can be used per day. They are limited to boosting any given skill 1/day, but this is only going to give a maximum +4d6 (at level 20), which isn't a massive benefit (Sure, it's a nice thing on top of everything else, but it's not required to make the skill good).

[mucco]

Didn't I do everything you said made the Wizard T1 with the Cleric?

I mean, Commune->Find Balor, buff everybody out the ears (like hymer said, probably not with any form of Invisibility, but it's a Cleric; buffing isn't a problem), Greater Teleport from a domain* to the Balor, have the party (2/3 of which can be the Cleric's minions) stomp the Balor in the surprise round, take the macguffin.

Or, if we're doing the melee comparison, Time Stop from a domain*, buff yourself up (I probably don't need to break this down; buffing up is what Clerics do), stomp something with Power Attacked Ice Axe or Miracled Giant Size+Bite of the Werebear's +48 strength.

*Domains mean they're not on the general Cleric list, but they don't mean they're build-specific; Substitute Domain means you can shuffle domain picks around if you want.

Or if we're blasting, the Cleric can drop some DMM Twinned Summon Monster IXs for 2d3 Storm Elementals (mean 4; each blasting for 32d4+96d6 = mean 416 damage in the first round, plus 130ish damage from attacks v. AC 35 each subsequent round, compared to mean CR 20 HP of 409 (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19869122/Optimization_By_The_Numbers)) or Twinned Streamers to just ruin people's days.

Or the Cleric could always build for Divine Magician to get a good chunk of the crazy wizard stuff like Animate Dread Warrior, Anticipate Teleport, Enervation, Disjunction, Maw of Chaos, Antimagic Ray that it wants.

The Cleric easily has the second best spell list in the game. I think the reason the Cleric looks Dread Necromancer-caliber to you and the Sorcerer doesn't is that you're selectively banning the things you think are above Dread Necromancer-caliber from the Cleric list, but letting them ride for the Sorcerer.

Well, most of the tricks you pulled off are using wizard spells with the cleric through domains/tricks. It does fall into the realm of things I wouldn't abuse - but I'd allow it. So, yeah, I can give you that. The cleric has spells and class features that allow him to emulate a wizard decently; this is a good argument for T1, if a bit... sad in my opinion.

Side notes: teleport+minions doesn't work well at all, the balor has immunity to 32d4+64d6 of those you listed and extremely good chances to halve most of the remaining Storm Elemental damage, their attacks themselves have a relatively low chance of hitting, Streamers is in the ban list of any sane DM that is not running Exalted, DMM Twin is itself a big feat expense that might not always be optimal and one I've very rarely seen.


Mucco, I don't think you're going to find better examples than the kinds of ones you've already been given at this point. If you feel that this means Druid and Cleric are tier 3, then I advise you to settle on that conclusion and simply accept that most people are going to disagree with you.

What can be done to Commune can be done to Contact Other Plane. If a DM wants to fiat, they're given license to fiat either way.

Well, I think it depends on how people play those classes ultimately. This is supposed to be a speculation thread. Nice spot check on COP though! I didn't know that bit and it does bring COP a tad down.


Mucco: you clearly view the divine casters with a different set of glasses, which more or less means this has become an exercise of futility. An example:

((quote about average ranged attack roll))

Compared to who? A sorcerer of the same level? A wizard? While the druid BAB progression is average, there is nothing to assume they aren't as good at hitting things at range as your typical rogue, for example.

Compared to someone who builds for it. Arcanists will usually have similar attack rolls thanks to lower BAB but likely higher Dex if the Druid doesn't WS into something useful. But arcanists usually have little need for ranged attack rolls! And if there really is a need they can Quicken True Strike. And I'm talking from experience. Druids usually roll plenty of ranged attack rolls for various reasons, and they always miss quite a bit.

[eggs]

Well, most of the tricks you pulled off are using wizard spells with the cleric through domains/tricks. It does fall into the realm of things I wouldn't abuse - but I'd allow it. So, yeah, I can give you that. The cleric has spells and class features that allow him to emulate a wizard decently; this is a good argument for T1, if a bit... sad in my opinion.
That's just because it's the context that was laid out for T1 qualification.

Even ignoring things like Planar Ally, Haunt Shift, and spells shared with the Sorcerer/Wizard, the Cleric spell list has access to game-breakers like Miracles, X-Word abuse, spells that just bend numbers over its knee (Guidance of the Avatar/Divine Insight, the usual combat suspects like Righteous Might, Divine Power, Divine Favor, Algid Enhancement, Sadism and so on), Consumptive Field, Delay Death tricks, as well as most of the IP-proofing staples like immunities to just about everything and even more of the +numbers effects. And the class has turning, which can turn into some huge bonuses like free metamagic, CL boosts and counterspelling as an actually viable tactic.

And note that one of your examples of a Wizard doing stuff you thought established a T1 involved the same kind of spell list circumvention for a Cleric spell that I mention using for Wizard spells. That's how the really ridiculous classes work - the Cleric/Wizard/Archivist/Artificer are all perfectly able to throw one another's spells around, sometimes with their own spell slots, sometimes with summons/binding, sometimes with crafting, sometimes with Celestial Channeling or supernatural ability adoption... it's the same end result in any case.

[hymer]

Sorry, I must have fixated on and/or misunderstood this:


A warblade is versatile and extremely powerful.

Interesting graduation. Endurance gets a bit complicated, though. How do you count healing into that? Most melee can go on pretty much indefinitely as long as they have hp (though some of course run out of some specials eventually, but the ragestarved barbarians and outsmitten paladins can still hit people with sharp implements). But their class features rarely give them the ability to regain hp, or gives it to them in very small portions (crusader, paladin and ranger are the only ones I can think of offhand). So they must rely on items or other people healing them. How to account for that? Is an übercharger E1 or E6? Say he takes out one eldritch giant in the first round, but the invisible second one then got off a full attack on him before it too went down - and he's now down to 25% hp. He should probably call it a night if he doesn't get healed back up somehow.

Having two scores from 1-5 and one 1-4 is also aesthetically unpleasing, but that could be a minor thing. :)

[Darth Stabber]

I'm just going to go ahead and say it, other than trapfinding, combat, survival, and knowledge skill, most GMs i know don't make you roll dice. I include myself in that figure. If all we are doing is discussion with NPCs, I will rarely enforce social skill rolls other than bluff and sense motive. If someone tries to diplomancy and rolls it, and rolls well, I will give them a better result than they could have gotten through just talking. I will allow rapid diplomancing to avoid combat, but that roll is painful if you don't optimize the crap out of it. Half the skills are never really called for unless the player calls for it.

The above comment seems a touch non-sequitur, however this is part of the key in weighing classes. Many types of situation are handled with no die rolls what so ever. This is because it interrupts the gameflow to do so, but it has the side effect of reducing the importance of skill that don't relate to murder. This means that unless a player makes that an important part of his characterization, the party will frequently just roleplay through with out the recourse of dice. Bluff and Sense Motive are usually exempted, since the chance of failure is real and the consequences of failure are high indeed, and unlike diplomatic overtures, bluff/SM exist as a binary in most players minds (it's the truth or it's a lie). Trapfinding is another case where the dice come into play, but many GMs use few to no traps, and usually only one character in a party has any chance of seeing the darn thing. Combat is where the dice come out and rules are observed. A player can give an eloquent speech, and not be called out for his character having a negative charisma and no related skill points, but if a player says his character plunges his sword down his foe's gullet he had better have some dice to back it up.

Thus when weighing the abilities of a class Combat is inevitably weighted very heavily. The ability to pick locks is probably weighted just as much as how useful your character is in a fight specifically with a flying construct. This is why there are several T3 classes that aren't particularly talented at non-combat things. And classes that excel at non-combat things tend to be lower tiered. An expert is more useful at most things than a barbarian, and yet the barbarian is tiered higher. The real weighing factor in the system is How effective is a character's combat shticks, hard it is to stop a character's combat shtick, how common that stop is, How complete that stop is, and what they have left over if their main shtick is down. A fighter must choose either A) be really good at one thing and be completely incompetent at everything else, B) be mostly incompetent at everything. Rogues are really good at things that aren't combat, but those things are not being rated here.


Free action healing at the cost of a class liability. Mass heroism. DR. The Divine Spirit ACF is absurdly good.

In combat healing (even as a free action) still isn't that good, especially only once per day. Healer is a very low tiered class for a reason. Out of combat healing should be either done with wands, or be unlimited if it's going to be useful. The mass heroism is kind of useful, but only once per day. The DR is good, but becomes disappointing fairly quickly. The divine spirit acf is probably better than a free horse, but absurdly good it is not, and will never bring the paladin to parity with crusader. And Crusader doesn't have to deal with the MASSIVE rp restriction that paladin gives you. Crusader can buy a horse, but no amount of money can make the stick up a paladin's backside comfortable.

[Lans]

I find the warblade to be more resilient than a lot of other melee classes due to the stone dragon discipline. 5/dr at first level means most of the non two hander 1st level enemies are barely going to be able to scratch him.

[toapat]

I find the warblade to be more resilient than a lot of other melee classes due to the stone dragon discipline. 5/dr at first level means most of the non two hander 1st level enemies are barely going to be able to scratch him.

which is why i just outright said the Innitiator classes were E1. although there are better schools then stone dragon, stone dragon is effective.

Edit: Also, Paladin's Divine spirit healing is both free action, and it is also healing that costs you a weak class feature for a strong one, where as Crusader, the guy typically said to be the best, has to take a school which has only a single exceptional stance in it and nothing else.

[DeltaEmil]

The Devoted Spirit school is considered one of the most powerful schools in Tome of Battle regarding its strike maneuvers, and has quite a few powerful stances, with only Aura of Tyranny being a real stinker.

It's the signature school for those who want to effectively tank, be nigh-immortal at the later near-epic levels, and hit reliably and be a real threat to the enemies that can't be simply ignored in favor for the tier 1-spellcasters.

[Gwendol]

Compared to someone who builds for it. Arcanists will usually have similar attack rolls thanks to lower BAB but likely higher Dex if the Druid doesn't WS into something useful. But arcanists usually have little need for ranged attack rolls! And if there really is a need they can Quicken True Strike. And I'm talking from experience. Druids usually roll plenty of ranged attack rolls for various reasons, and they always miss quite a bit.

In your games. That's hardly universal. If the druid is planning on rolling a lot of ranged attack rolls, why wouldn't he wildshape into a form that allows him/her to do that reliably? And in my experience, arcanists fire rays from time to time.

Most characters built for ranged combat hit vs AC, not touch. That's a fairly big difference right there. The comparison here is between divine and arcane casters, unless I'm mistaken?

[Socratov]

I said that they are T4.

as far as i can tell, these challenges are specifically to support the 4 types of gameplay. Mountainhammer comes close into meeting part of the first challenge, but that is negated by the fact that Mountainhammer is actually just a replacement for what should be standard equipment, which would be an Adamantine Mining Pick (a mundane item that only costs 1100g at that).

basically, there are 5 tiers in the versatility group:

VE (Extrapolation): Classes who have to be judged on a game by game basis. most obviously these are Artificer, Paladin, and Ranger.
V1: Classes that can be good at many things simultaneously.
V2: Classes that can be good at one thing and participate when that one thing isnt relevant
V3+3X: Classes that can be good at one thing. 3X specifies classes which have broad numbers of things they can be viable at.
V4: Classes which functionally do not excel at any one thing without extreme optimization. (knight for instance falls down a relative tier), and classes which do not work as written.

Then, there is the 6 tiered Endurance group:

EE: Classes who have to be judged game by game
E1: Can well exceed 6/day encounters. The Initiators are exceptional here.
E2: Can effectively perform in 4-5 encounters per day
E3: Can effectively perform in 3 encounters per day
E4: Can effectively Perform in 2 Encounters per day
E5: Can effectively perform in 1 or less encounters per day.


And finally, we have the Power system, which is best represented by taking the OpCieling of a given class.

P1: Combat is able to be rendered irrelevant in multiple ways
P2: Rigged combat is relevant
P3: Challenged by combat
P4: Difficulty succeeding in combat
P5: Incapable of contributing in combat.


combined, you want a class score of V2 E2 P3.

Warblade from what i understand would be a V3 E1 P2 class

judging ins this way, I'd say a warlock makes for a V2/3 (depending on choices), P3/4 and E1 (seriously, all it does is at will enlessly, even better then initiatiors here)

Bard would be solid V2, E2/3 and P4. they have no real combat enders on their own, they need other characters to receive their buffs

[hymer]

@ Socratov: It's not unlikely that the warlock took some feats like Quicken SLA, which have limited uses per day. Kinda like the barbarian here, they work a lot better if they haven't used up their per day powers, but they still function even if they have.

[Socratov]

@ Socratov: It's not unlikely that the warlock took some feats like Quicken SLA, which have limited uses per day. Kinda like the barbarian here, they work a lot better if they haven't used up their per day powers, but they still function even if they have.

except that quicken is only 3 a day for 1 invocation (or blast). it does help, but it's more like a cherry on the cake then the icing or baked good underneath, they go on forever. and power is difficult. It's like the refreshing mechanic of manuevers, yes they can run out of a few resources, however they have lots of never ending resources left. since the EB (main source of damage) isn't that stellar but some other invocations (*cough* Chilling spiked hentai tentacles of forced intrusion etc. *cough* or wall of fire*cough*) can really make up for the difference. The question is whether you really go EB (and glaive or whatever with that) or play a diet sorcerer/wizard...

[ThiagoMartell]

That is not even a question, Socratov, it's the whole point of warlock damage builds - it only takes a few resources to get that damage going and your invocations can be used mostly to play wizard. That is the reason Warlock should be tier 3, it does one thing pretty well (damage) and can do several other things reasonably well when damage is not necessary (social encounters, dispelling, crafting, BFC...)

[Socratov]

Well, if you focus on BFC you need the blinding/sickening/fear/etc. essenses as well. that eats up a lot of either damage or invocations resources. I wouldn't say that Warlock is a solid T3 or high T3, but at least a member of the group. Warlock will never out do Bards in versitality, though they may in damage (don't get me wrong, i love the warlock class). Though I think they at least would occupy (depending on playstyle used) one of the traditional 4 roles which bard doesn't (unless you take him along as healer :smallamused: which you totally should :smallbiggrin:).

I do think he can occupy diferent roles, but not to the extent that is asked of a high T3 (but then again, nor does the warblade)

On a side note, I think the above tiersystem (versitality, endurance and power) is excellent and elegant since you can judge on each aspect alone to get a more honest rating of a class. In devising a campaing or session the DM profits as well since he can look at the group and tune the challenges (number, difficulty, w/e) to fit the party better. for example: he could eliminate the 15 minute workday when he notices that the wizard shines in teh spotlight and the warlock not. so he throws in a couple of challenges more to allow the warlock and fighter show their endurance. when a party with a warblade and a factotum allow the warblade to cleave too many heads the Dm can choose to focus more on wit and versitality to let the factotum shine more. if the whole party has a powerrating of 1 or 2 (or 5 or 6) he can adjust the HP/AC a bit to better accomodate the challenges. I don't even understand why we are not doing this now :smallredface:

@toapat: here, have a chocolate chip cookie: (::)

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Here's the thing about Warlock... by itself, it is most certainly Tier 4, because it just doesn't have the oomph to bump it up to T3. It is high T4, don't get me wrong, but it is still T4.

However, it does get a lot of love from some alternate resources that can easily bump up an individual build to Tier 3 or even possibly Tier 2 (depending on bloodline abuse, you might get close to Mailman-esque damage with a HFW lock).

A two-level dip in Chameleon, for example, significantly increases the versatility of the Warlock, giving them effectively a floating invocation (via Extra Invocation feat) plus possible extreme synergy with their ability to make magic items.

Hellfire Warlock gives them relevant damage output, when paired with Legacy Champion and some method of auto-healing the Con damage. The debate about mitigating the damage is widely rampant, and the best agreed upon answer is 'ask your GM' if con damage reduction (via strongheart vest) is considered to be 'immune to the con damage' and thus turn off HFW or not.

Also, a one-level dip in Mindbender can grant access to Mindsight, which is an awesome 'mob radar' ability.

But all of these builds require other classes to be effective, none of them can be done with 'pure' Warlock 20.

[Grelna the Blue]

It is worth noting in this context that although wizards are a T1 class, this is due in large part to the versatility they may have from the number of spells they can potentially get. However, they are by no means guaranteed to have a very large number of spells.

If a PC thinking about playing a wizard expected to get only the minimum number of spells per level (two), then playing a sorcerer instead might be a considerably better bet, especially as the majority of those wizard spells would be low level. So when looking at the power level of a wizard, consider also the kind of game the wizard is in. If a player is in a game without downtime available for spell research and in which the difficulty of acquiring new spells through cash purchase ranges from difficult to impossible by GM fiat (and I have played in just such a game for years), wizards are still a playable class but are far from as terrifying as they might be in a game where a fairly minimal expenditure of money can fill up multiple spellbooks.

In this regard, there are no guidelines I have seen anywhere as to approximately how many spells a wizard should have at any given level. So wizards are a little like archivists, in that more than other PCs they are at the GM's mercy as to how many of their class abilities they are allowed to have.

[hymer]

At the very minimum, wizards know 4 spells per spell level at level 18 (but 3+int level 1s). A sorcerer at level 18 knows only one more second level spell, the same from levels 3-5, one less 6-7, two less 8 and three less level 9.
Even at the very bare minimum, wizards are considerably more versatile.

[Grelna the Blue]

At the very minimum, wizards know 4 spells per spell level at level 18 (but 3+int level 1s). A sorcerer at level 18 knows only one more second level spell, the same from levels 3-5, one less 6-7, two less 8 and three less level 9.
Even at the very bare minimum, wizards are considerably more versatile.

I would say instead that even at the very bare minimum, wizards are very slightly more versatile. The knowledge of 6 more spells of level 6 to 9 is not insignificant, but the sorcerers will be casting the spells they have spontaneously, more frequently, and can apply metamagic feats on the fly.

However, I'm not arguing that sorcerers are inherently better than wizards, just that the flexibility that makes wizards more attractive to a lot of players is a variable that is very GM and game-dependent. Compared to other player classes, wizards have crap for hit points, lousy BAB, and their saves are likewise uninspiring. Their spells make up for that. They are their class abilities. And you cannot know how well two wizards of equal level stack up against each other power and flexibility-wise unless you know their respective spell lineups. I have never seen a GM guide, official or un-, that talks about how many spells are appropriate. Or at least, never since the end of 2nd Edition AD&D, when the number of spells known was limited by Intelligence.

[Kelb_Panthera]

At the very minimum, wizards know 4 spells per spell level at level 18 (but 3+int level 1s). A sorcerer at level 18 knows only one more second level spell, the same from levels 3-5, one less 6-7, two less 8 and three less level 9.
Even at the very bare minimum, wizards are considerably more versatile.
This is true, but it's also partially offset by the fact a wizard can lose some of his spells known (stolen or destroyed book), while a sorcerer can't.

Bear in mind that a wizard can almost never lose all his spells, as long as he has some prepared he can scribe them in a new book at half-cost, but it -is- a potential factor to consider.

[hymer]

So we're painting a picture here where

1: The DM won't let you get your hands on any spells other than what s/he must by RAW.
2: S/he then proceeds to destroy your spellbooks.

Playing a sorcerer wouldn't help, I fear. :)

[Kelb_Panthera]

So we're painting a picture here where

1: The DM won't let you get your hands on any spells other than what s/he must by RAW.
2: S/he then proceeds to destroy your spellbooks.

Playing a sorcerer wouldn't help, I fear. :)

I tend to look at them as two -potential- points of weakness. If a DM does either of these, it significantly impacts a wizard's ability.

I do agree that a DM that does both, should've probably just outright disallowed wizards for this particular adventure/campaign.

[hymer]

Fair enough. :)

[Darth Stabber]

Going after spellbooks is a dangerous affair for gms. It is theoretically a weakness of the class, but by hitting that weakness you turn the wizard into a commoner with a good willsave who casts read magic alot. Even with the feat that gives you spells known permanently, you only get a few. It is useful if your wizard goes full on paranoid, but without sufficient paranoia, the destroy/steal spellbook option turns wizard off completely. I tend to play mid level and higher wizards as complete paranoid nutcases, because it works, and I like the flavor of supreme arcane power driving the wielder bonkers. In games I run, it is a base assumption that wizardry causes paranoia in the mortal mind, because it gives abilities mortals weren't designed to have and it corrupts portions of the mind. Sorcery does not because their dragon/outsider/abberation/ect blood offers a measure of protection, since their ancestor was designed to to channel such power. The side effect is that my players hate wizards since they have multiple levels of protections, and realize that a contingent teleport/planeshift is likely.

[nedz]

So we're painting a picture here where

1: The DM won't let you get your hands on any spells other than what s/he must by RAW.
2: S/he then proceeds to destroy your spellbooks.

Playing a sorcerer wouldn't help, I fear. :)

One I've seen:
Run the game at negligible wealth so that the wizards cannot afford to copy any spells into their spell book. Interesting Wizard Stealth Nerf, even if you can access other spells for (theoretical) copying.:smallsigh:

[lunar2]

isn't there an ACF somewhere to get rid of the spellbook entirely, though? no spellbook means no stealing spells, at the cost of more difficulty learning new spells, since you would actually need to research them, instead of just copying them off a scroll.

and then there are the alternate spellbooks. brand your spells into your skin (not tattoo, tattoo can be damaged by sword, while a brand would be repaired by magical healing, and copied onto clones, etc.) and it becomes very difficult to take them from you. a (2?) level geometer dip reduces every spell to 1 page, drastically opening up more room on the skin.

also, in campaigns where researching spells is not an option, how many wizards don't have the collegiate wizard feat?


@cleric vs. wizard. it should be pointed out that if the cleric can't use the spells that are also on the sorc/wiz list, then the sorc/wiz can't use those spells, either, because they are also on the cleric list. either all three classes get access to their entire spell list, or they both only get access to the spells exclusive to their own lists (which means that sorcerers and wizards are reduced to a mere handful of spells each, since their respective lists are over 90% identical).

[toapat]

One I've seen:
Run the game at negligible wealth so that the wizards cannot afford to copy any spells into their spell book. Interesting Wizard Stealth Nerf, even if you can access other spells for (theoretical) copying.:smallsigh:

easily solved with the wizard varient where you smoke a nice dish of weed to learn spells. You simply hire a farmer to grow a crop for you, or better yet just use leadership and get a Factotum companion farmer.

[Darth Stabber]

easily solved with the wizard varient where you smoke a nice dish of weed to learn spells. You simply hire a farmer to grow a crop for you, or better yet just use leadership and get a Factotum companion farmer.

Which variant is that? I can't tell if that's awesome or juvenile, but I am conditionally interested.

[toapat]

Which variant is that? I can't tell if that's awesome or juvenile, but I am conditionally interested.

/One index skim later

Eidetic Spellcaster Varient wizard, Dragon 357 p 89. (It should be allowed to be taken by Archivists too, but RAW it is only Wizard)

you dont have a spellbook, and you learn spells by smoking several 100g of an unspecified aromatic plant. The typical nickname as a result is the Pot wizard. Afterwards you can just prepare spells from memory at the beginning of the day.

Combine with Elven Generalist and Colegate wizard to get a rather thick spellbook without the risk, barring of course the Now rather rampent Mindflayer numbers you will face.

[DoughGuy]

One I've seen:
Run the game at negligible wealth so that the wizards cannot afford to copy any spells into their spell book. Interesting Wizard Stealth Nerf, even if you can access other spells for (theoretical) copying.:smallsigh:
The melee classes who are now (even more) useless cause they don't have magic equipment would like a word with you :smalltongue:

[toapat]

The melee classes who are now (even more) useless cause they don't have magic equipment would like a word with you :smalltongue:

interestingly the nerf to WBL buffs the Soulknife

[Darth Stabber]

The melee classes who are now (even more) useless cause they don't have magic equipment would like a word with you :smalltongue:

Messing with WBL hurts everyone below tier2 much worse than tier2 up (incarnate and totemist do okay). Wizard and archivist are hit the hardest of the high tiers, but it's not that bad. Cleric, sorcerer, psion, and such are going to be slightly annoyed by the reduced save dcs, and druid just laughs. Druids, incarnates, and totemist can take VoP and not lose much efficacy, so they can be just fine in low wbl. Fighter and barbarian are screwed, rogue is wreaked.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Actually, the "my spell-book was stolen, now I'm a commoner" thing is actually bunk.

Unless the wizard in question was completely spent (no spells left at all) all he needs to do is get a new, blank spellbook and spend a couple days taking the spells he has memorized and expending them to scribe them in the new book (at half price, no less). He can then re-prep them from the new book and proceed to hunt down and murder the crap out of the theif that had the stones to pull a heist on a wizard in the first place.

Besides, drawmij's instant summons makes keeping a stolen spellbook a bit of a slippery task anyway. If you're not a paranoid enough wizard for at least that, you probably shouldn't be playing a wizard to begin with.

[toapat]

Actually, the "my spell-book was stolen, now I'm a commoner" thing is actually bunk.

Unless the wizard in question was completely spent (no spells left at all) all he needs to do is get a new, blank spellbook and spend a couple days taking the spells he has memorized and expending them to scribe them in the new book (at half price, no less). He can then re-prep them from the new book and proceed to hunt down and murder the crap out of the theif that had the stones to pull a heist on a wizard in the first place.

Besides, drawmij's instant summons makes keeping a stolen spellbook a bit of a slippery task anyway. If you're not a paranoid enough wizard for at least that, you probably shouldn't be playing a wizard to begin with.

that is, only if you are allowed to ignore the stupid "1 spell per day" inscription restriction.

besides, i feel all wizards should have to go Eidetic spellcaster

[Kelb_Panthera]

that is, only if you are allowed to ignore the stupid "1 spell per day" inscription restriction.

besides, i feel all wizards should have to go Eidetic spellcaster

Actually, IIRC, the same passage that allows you to scribe spells from your memory at half-cost also cuts the time to do so in half. At high levels that can still mean a month of down-time, but that's still not "I'm now just a high-level commoner."

[Amphetryon]

interestingly the nerf to WBL buffs the Soulknife
VOP Soulknife: For when your DM refuses to let you have Nice Things .

[Darth Stabber]

VOP Soulknife: For when your DM refuses to let you have Nice Things .

I would still rather be a druid, totemist, or incarnate. VoP is actually not super painful on them under normal circumstances, and honestly, it makes things so much easier for them that you can, ake the bookkeeping argument fairly easier. But with a stingy GM that feat can go from crappy to broken for everyone but artificer, wizard, and archivist.

[Socratov]

Here's the thing about Warlock... by itself, it is most certainly Tier 4, because it just doesn't have the oomph to bump it up to T3. It is high T4, don't get me wrong, but it is still T4.

However, it does get a lot of love from some alternate resources that can easily bump up an individual build to Tier 3 or even possibly Tier 2 (depending on bloodline abuse, you might get close to Mailman-esque damage with a HFW lock).

A two-level dip in Chameleon, for example, significantly increases the versatility of the Warlock, giving them effectively a floating invocation (via Extra Invocation feat) plus possible extreme synergy with their ability to make magic items.

Hellfire Warlock gives them relevant damage output, when paired with Legacy Champion and some method of auto-healing the Con damage. The debate about mitigating the damage is widely rampant, and the best agreed upon answer is 'ask your GM' if con damage reduction (via strongheart vest) is considered to be 'immune to the con damage' and thus turn off HFW or not.

Also, a one-level dip in Mindbender can grant access to Mindsight, which is an awesome 'mob radar' ability.

But all of these builds require other classes to be effective, none of them can be done with 'pure' Warlock 20.

strictly speaking, to be crafting you don't need chameleon. You just take crafting feats and pretend you're an artificer. then you do anything you want using items and riding the xp gravytrain.

[nedz]

The melee classes who are now (even more) useless cause they don't have magic equipment would like a word with you :smalltongue:
Yep

easily solved with the wizard varient where you smoke a nice dish of weed to learn spells. You simply hire a farmer to grow a crop for you, or better yet just use leadership and get a Factotum companion farmer.
It was a stealth nerf which only became apparent once we were a few levels into the game — so solutions which required options to be taken at 1st level are not useful.

Luckily I'd decided to play a Sorcerer.

[nedz]

strictly speaking, to be crafting you don't need chameleon. You just take crafting feats and pretend you're an artificer. then you do anything you want using items and riding the xp gravytrain.

Warlocks are feat hungry. Extra Invocation is one of the better feats around — just compare what a least invocation can give you compared to most feats.

What the chameleon dip gives you is most of the crafting feats when you need them, and some other feat when you don't.

A warlock who spends all of their feats on crafting probably moves down a tier, before moving back up.

[LordBlades]

Yep

It was a stealth nerf which only became apparent once we were a few levels into the game — so solutions which required options to be taken at 1st level are not useful.

Luckily I'd decided to play a Sorcerer.

You're a wizard. You have the means to hunt down and kill people with treasure. Or make treasure appear out of thin air. Also, via the option to master spellbooks in complete arcane you can pad your spell repertoire with the books of defeated wizards regardlwss..

[Socratov]

Warlocks are feat hungry. Extra Invocation is one of the better feats around — just compare what a least invocation can give you compared to most feats.

What the chameleon dip gives you is most of the crafting feats when you need them, and some other feat when you don't.

A warlock who spends all of their feats on crafting probably moves down a tier, before moving back up.

I know, I know, I'm just saying you don't need it if you want to craft. if however you want to blind people you want to get ability focus. If you don't you don't need it. The feat hungryness depends on what you want to do. (though generally speaking lots of classes/builds are feat hungry). (and you only need wondrous item/rods and staves for crafting)

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I know, I know, I'm just saying you don't need it if you want to craft. if however you want to blind people you want to get ability focus. If you don't you don't need it. The feat hungryness depends on what you want to do. (though generally speaking lots of classes/builds are feat hungry). (and you only need wondrous item/rods and staves for crafting)

Well, here's the problem with that...

To craft an item, you need that item creation feat. But there's like six different item creation feats. Holy feat tax, batman!

Chameleon2? Effectively nets you ALL of them at once. Whenever you need it. AND is a bonus Invocation when you aren't crafting in your downtime. AND you can switch up that invocation on a daily basis.

The former? Eats up ALL of his feats on Item Creation. This effectively prevents him from getting things like Empower/Maximize/Quicken SLA, which no Warlock should be without.

The latter? Nets you a bonus invocation with the added bonus of being able to change it up every day, in addition to being all of the item creation feats you ever wanted.

Please tell me you see the power level difference here.

[eggs]

There does exist a middle ground between investing all the Warlock's feats into item creation and none of them.

Spending a feat for Scribe Scroll instead of Able Learner is no more intrusive on the Warlock's feat progression than Chameleon, and assures access to any spell the Warlock wants.

And spending a feat on Craft Wondrous Item covers most of the heavy lifting for party wealth-multiplication, again at no higher feat investment than Chameleon. And if custom item creation guidelines are being followed, their formulas allow CWI to ape quite a few of the more specific feats.

[nedz]

Yes, particularly for any 1st and 3rd level feats. There are uses for these, but most of the more powerful warlock feats cannot be taken before 6th.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Yes, particularly for any 1st and 3rd level feats. There are uses for these, but most of the more powerful warlock feats cannot be taken before 6th.

Neither can most item creation feats. Scribe Scroll is 1st, brew potion and craft wondrous item are at 3rd. All of the rest are 5+.

Able Learner is tremendously useful to a Warlock going into Chameleon, particularly with a dip into Rogue, he can pass as a decent skillmonkey, especially if human.

At low levels, it's usually Able Learner as the human bonus feat and either PBS/Precise Shot or Blend Into Shadows and either At Home In The Deep (so you can get See The Unseen instead of Devil's Sight) or Instinctive Darkness (immediate action use) for the old HiPS trick.

[ThiagoMartell]

Or Mortalbane. But that's pretty much all the options you get at level 1. And PBS is just terrible.

[nedz]

Well you can blow three feats on the Fiendish or Fey Heritage trees to get another 6 SLAs — which do give you some more flexibility. These are probably better than PBS/PS; but they will eat your 1st, 6th and 9th level feat slots for which there are better options.
If you were thinking of this then it's probably better to eat 2 levels for Half-Fey.

[Darth Stabber]

Well you can blow three feats on the Fiendish or Fey Heritage trees to get another 6 SLAs — which do give you some more flexibility. These are probably better than PBS/PS; but they will eat your 1st, 6th and 9th level feat slots for which there are better options.
If you were thinking of this then it's probably better to eat 2 levels for Half-Fey.

Or burn 4 for pixie, seriously pixie is bad@ss, at least it is if you like high save dc (and are using la buyoff)

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Or Mortalbane. But that's pretty much all the options you get at level 1. And PBS is just terrible.

PBS is feat tax for Precise and improved Precise Shot, since you're probably going to be firing into melee frequently (unless you're a glaivelock). Improved Precise Shot removes one of the largest defenses against RTA's (miss chance).

[ThiagoMartell]

PBS is feat tax for Precise and improved Precise Shot, since you're probably going to be firing into melee frequently (unless you're a glaivelock). Improved Precise Shot removes one of the largest defenses against RTA's (miss chance).

Precise Shot is also terrible for a Warlock in most situations. Improved Precise Shot is one of many ways to deal with miss chance, but I think getting some source of blindsight, a Seeking weapon or some such would be nice.

For some reason, I'm now thinking about clawlocks using Blood Wind to attack with their claws from range. No, it does not have much to do with what we were discussing.

[Darth Stabber]

Precise Shot is also terrible for a Warlock in most situations. Improved Precise Shot is one of many ways to deal with miss chance, but I think getting some source of blindsight, a Seeking weapon or some such would be nice.

For some reason, I'm now thinking about clawlocks using Blood Wind to attack with their claws from range. No, it does not have much to do with what we were discussing.

Now I want to make a gestalt glaivelock//warblade/bloodstorm blade.

And at anyrate this thread has gotten way off topic anyway. Relevence of a post to OP is generally inversely purportional to post number.

[toapat]

And at anyrate this thread has gotten way off topic anyway. Relevence of a post to OP is generally inversely purportional to post number.

actually, it is tangentally, not way off topic. the OP was asking about whether pulling the uber-borked stuff would nerf the T1 classes, which it wouldnt significantly, it just lowers their OP floor.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Precise Shot is also terrible for a Warlock in most situations. Improved Precise Shot is one of many ways to deal with miss chance, but I think getting some source of blindsight, a Seeking weapon or some such would be nice.

For some reason, I'm now thinking about clawlocks using Blood Wind to attack with their claws from range. No, it does not have much to do with what we were discussing.

Precise Shot is not terrible for a sniper lock. Not everyone allows Dragon Mag content in their games yanno ;)

Also, seeking weapon doesn't affect your EB in any way, so that wouldn't help in the least.

[Socratov]

well, you could always get a weaponcrystal and glue it to your hand... I'd allow it if a player would come to me with this solution. (the glue must be sovereign glue btw, never take it off) :smallyuk:

[ShneekeyTheLost]

well, you could always get a weaponcrystal and glue it to your hand... I'd allow it if a player would come to me with this solution. (the glue must be sovereign glue btw, never take it off) :smallyuk:

Weapon crystals can only be applied to weapons with a certain enhancement bonus. I don't think hands count, unless you also intend to allow an Amulet of Natural Attacks to let them qualify.

Even then, it would simply augment unarmed attacks, not an eldritch blast.

[ThiagoMartell]

While 100% not RAW, a weapon augment crystal in a warlock's scepter affecting eldritch blast would be a very reasonable houserule, IMHO

[Socratov]

Weapon crystals can only be applied to weapons with a certain enhancement bonus. I don't think hands count, unless you also intend to allow an Amulet of Natural Attacks to let them qualify.

Even then, it would simply augment unarmed attacks, not an eldritch blast.
well, it si said you fire it from your hands, so that argument could be reasonably made...

While 100% not RAW, a weapon augment crystal in a warlock's scepter affecting eldritch blast would be a very reasonable houserule, IMHO
I don't know, Id'rather they glued it to their hands because I'll hve someone try and steal that crystal on account of being shiny :smallbiggrin:

Hilarity will ensue