How much are size categories actually worth?

[Tvtyrant]

How much is each size category worth in LA or CR? Take a Colossal Goblin as a base.

[Darth Stabber]

The value of size catagory is dependant on a number of factors. Size catagory is really only useful if you are A)grappling, or B) using and abusing reach. If you are just doing general melee without precision damage (sneak attack and the like) it becomes a mixed bag of sorts, upping your damage, lowering your accuracy and ac.

If you aren't doing those thing, it is terrible to be big. Wizards and other casters generally prefer to be small, since spell damage isn't dependant on size. Stealth rogue types prefer small since it gives them bonuses to hide, ac, and, accuracy, and given their reliance on precision damage they can afford the reduced weapon damage.

Divine casters, especially clerics and druids, like option of becoming big, but don't want to be tied to it when it would be more advantageous not to be, because they have spells/class abilities that can make them big on demand.

All and all size it too much of a mixed bag to measure in a vacuum because there is always something else attached, and because there are penalties that are somewhat commensurate with gains.

[Gavinfoxx]

Are you grappling, disarming, tripping, using reach weapons, using stand still, using attacks of opportunity?

Is this Pathfinder or 3.5?

[Darth Stabber]

Assuming all you did was make the basic MM1 goblin colossal, and apply all the normal size modifiers, the value would be negative. The goblin would have impressive reach, and big damage dice, but wouldn't be able to hit anything, and any incoming attack would almost assuredly hit him.

If the goblin were to pick up some accuracy, combat reflexes, and either improved trip or standstill (or even both), he would suddenly be scarier.

[tyckspoon]

Assuming all you did was make the basic MM1 goblin colossal, and apply all the normal size modifiers, the value would be negative. The goblin would have impressive reach, and big damage dice, but wouldn't be able to hit anything, and any incoming attack would almost assuredly hit him.


Depends on if you're only applying the size category bonuses/penalties or if you're also giving him the attribute and Natural Armor categories from the Increasing Size table (the one usually used for advancing size categories for HD-advanced monsters.) Higher size categories are generally a solid plus if you get those modifiers; if not, I'm not sure if anything higher than Large is really worth going for, since the reach increases are less significant and you start really having to work around the awkward side effects of being really big (Large creatures can operate in areas meant for Medium creatures most of the time, Huge ones often can't unless they're willing to squeeze everywhere.)

[TuggyNE]

Depends on if you're only applying the size category bonuses/penalties or if you're also giving him the attribute and Natural Armor categories from the Increasing Size table (the one usually used for advancing size categories for HD-advanced monsters.)

Most ways of changing size that I'm aware of give you at least enough extra Strength to compensate for attack penalty (though, because Dex sometimes drops as well, AC tends to be pretty thoroughly tanked).

Larger reach and more damage in exchange for being hit more often can be a reasonable tradeoff, especially if you're Shock Trooper-ing it up. However, as already mentioned, larger sizes are worse than useless for any non-melee, and not always useful even for all meleers.

[Darth Stabber]

Depends on if you're only applying the size category bonuses/penalties or if you're also giving him the attribute and Natural Armor categories from the Increasing Size table (the one usually used for advancing size categories for HD-advanced monsters.) Higher size categories are generally a solid plus if you get those modifiers; if not, I'm not sure if anything higher than Large is really worth going for, since the reach increases are less significant and you start really having to work around the awkward side effects of being really big (Large creatures can operate in areas meant for Medium creatures most of the time, Huge ones often can't unless they're willing to squeeze everywhere.)


Most ways of changing size that I'm aware of give you at least enough extra Strength to compensate for attack penalty (though, because Dex sometimes drops as well, AC tends to be pretty thoroughly tanked).


I was going off the idea that this was size in a vacuum, thus using the more or less explicit benefits and penalties. Buff spells that increase size are buff spells, and as such are going to be more favorable

Small and medium are at sort of a sweetspot (small being preferable more often than not). Smaller than small introduces the wierdness of moving into an opponents square to attack (though not as big a problem for casters), while bigger than medium starts a bunch of penalties, though they aren't so bad at large. Honestly I think I would rather be fine than colossal, if I had to choose extremes. Wierdly there are much fewer good ways of getting yourself smaller, though the benefits of the ability to get smaller would be less than the benefits of the ability to get larger since you probably can take advantage of the ability if you are going to use it (usually for the reach). Where as getting smaller is just small bonuses to hit, ac, and hide.

[DeltaEmil]

Most ways of changing size that I'm aware of give you at least enough extra Strength to compensate for attack penalty (though, because Dex sometimes drops as well, AC tends to be pretty thoroughly tanked).

Larger reach and more damage in exchange for being hit more often can be a reasonable tradeoff, especially if you're Shock Trooper-ing it up. However, as already mentioned, larger sizes are worse than useless for any non-melee, and not always useful even for all meleers.Your total AC remains the same when increasing to large size, since you get a +2 natural armor bonus, while taking the -1 size penalty and the -2 penalty to Dexterity.
Becoming larger than large gives you more natural armor bonus than you lose from size modifiers and Dex reduction, and once you are gargantuan or colossal, you don't get any reduction in your Dexterity scores anymore (the size penalty doubles then, but you still gain a netto-bonus of +1).

AC-wise, it's okay to increase in size. The advantages to your AC are far smaller than the advantages to your damage, unless your opponents target your touch AC, then your worse off. But this might not be that much of a disadvantage, if you had been hit anyway even if medium.

[Malroth]

Conversely you could be a primordial Half giant warlock or artificer and shrink yourself down to as many size categories below fine as your DM rules exist using the worlds smallest giant trick and simply walk around impossible to find while you use sand grains for total cover and still have your standard magical capabilities.

[rweird]

The Colossal Goblin would, if just given colossal size (though not the required HD) would have the following stat line:
Str 47 (same as great wyrm gold dragon), dex 7, con 30, int 10, wis 9, cha 6
It would also gain +14 natural armor, meaning AC 20 with size mods

In melee it would have morningstar +11 melee (6d6+18/ 20 x2)

By the rules in MM1, increasing size beyond large means +1 CR/size category, or for this, +4, meaning that goblin would be CR four.

Comparing it to other CR 4 monsters, it comes out behind for HP (15), though ahead in AC, attack, and damage. It is something the caster needs to SoL before it acts, or it'll do serious damage (multiple PC deaths), unless you can act first, it has the binary part of higher levels that makes it rocket tag, though at a lower level. Still, the size limits say it should have 24 HD, and if it gains 24 humanoid HD (+8 CR) it would be closer to a CR 12-13 encounter, though it would loose the rocket tag ability have previously possessed and would probably be easy to beat (though it has around 350 HP with 24 HD, and is woefully under expected AC).

I think the long and short is that size increasing can unbalance monsters if they don't have more HD, though colossal requires to many HD for something to be all that credible a threat unless it started as one.

[ericgrau]

It really depends. The first step from small to medium on the goblin is probably a downgrade. He can grapple better than before but that's not saying much, and he lost his combat bonuses. He didn't gain any reach either and most of his damage was probably from sneak attack or a bow or some such anyway; the size bump maybe added a measly 1-1.5 damage. On a medium high strength race like an orc it's worth a lot more to bump up to large size. But even then after 2 or 3 sizes it's not worth as much, and it may be hard to even fit in a dungeon.

For the increase from medium to large on a high strength race you gain -1 attack bonus, -1 AC, up to +3.5 damage (more with heavy optimization though), reach and +4 to special attacks like grapple. By itself that's worth half an LA IMO, but if you further increase str it might be worth more. Even if you reduce dex too. If your type remains humanoid that means you can enlarge person into huge and so I'd say it's worth 1 LA even without the str bump. OTOH even if you allow something as simple as psionics creature type isn't as important. It's still important because many people still won't play psychic warriors even when playing optimal melee, it's just not as important.

[Urpriest]

I really don't think this is a useful question. If you want LA and CR to mean something, you have to apply them on a case-by-case basis, since any given combination will have its own capabilities, stats, and utility. If you want LA and CR to follow clear universal formulas, then they both already do. In neither world does this thread have an answer.