Preventing the 15 minute day

[haplessvictim]

I am DMing a good ol' fashioned dungeon crawl with four players, and I'm worried about us getting in the habit of the "15 minute adventuring day." Not because my players are munchkins -- they're a really good group and enjoy the roleplaying aspects of our game -- but because, honestly, it makes sense. Why not wait a full day after each encounter so you can get back all your spells and heal up?

So, I'm looking for ways to make camping after each fight less appealing but without looking like I'm punishing the players. The dungeon complex they're in has an active ecosystem and there are some patrolling guards, but having the same patrols harass the players all the time will get boring for everybody.

So what advice or ideas do you have to non-monotonously keep a group of players on their feet (and on their toes) for a full adventuring day -- say, three or four combat encounters? The players are currently 1st level but will be levelling up soon, and will eventually reach 3rd before they confront the BBEG.

[limejuicepowder]

The PC's resting after every combat is logical from their perspective, and any seasoned adventurer (IC) will take an opportunity to rest. Who knows when the next one might come again? If your players are following this line of logic, intentionally or not, it comes to this: the players are dictating the "rules of engagement."

Take that away from them.

If the bad guys are basically just sitting around waiting for their 3 rounds in the spotlight, then of course the PC are always going to fight once then rest. So for starters, bring the bad guys to them. This can be as simple as random patrols/encounters or something more complex and nefarious like a bounty hunter hired by the BBEG who is actively tracking and watching the PCs, waiting for an opportunity to strike.

Another option is not give the PCs all the time in the world to get something done. If a merchant hired them to recover a plot device in 2 weeks, and it take 6 days to travel each way, they aren't going to be doing a lot of resting if they want to get paid. Less defined time lines can work as well, like searching for a missing child - who knows what shape it's going to be in, but the more time it takes the worse the kid's chances are. Any way to add urgency to the mission is a good way to speed up the team.

Now a general, if related, question of my own: just how does a party rest overnight when they are in the middle of a dungeon? How does the first fight not raise the alarms and bring the entire thing down on their heads?

[Flickerdart]

Applying the standard "enter dungeon, fight monsters, rest, repeat until treasure" dynamic to an actively patrolled dungeon with intelligent owners makes absolutely no sense and trying to shoehorn that dynamic in will crush any verisimilitude you were hoping for like tinfoil.

If the PCs are infiltrating a complex inhabited by an organized force, they either need to do it by sneaking through instead of fighting, come in with massive firepower (mercenaries are fairly cheap) and take out the enemy with an equivalent force, or get some disguises/sign up for the organization and walk around in plain sight.

Now, the real issue is how the patrols communicate with others. If they have magic for that, obviously the first fight will get the PCs discovered. Most likely, they have a guy that runs to warn someone else. If the PCs intercept him, then they have breathing space until people realize that a patrol is missing and send out a stronger force.

You can also just make it impossible to rest. Maybe there's a lot of noise (possibly because of the aforementioned alarms) that makes sleeping difficult. Maybe the complex is flooded with a slowly-acting poison gas or disease, and the more time they spend in there, the more it's going to affect them... Also, keep in mind that divine spellcasters can only prepare spells at a certain time of day, so resting after every encounter only replenishes the wizard's spells, but not anyone's hit points. A tweak of the rules to apply the same restriction on arcanists (something like "refreshing spells more than once per day causes undue stress on the mind and may lead to horrible dying") will go a long way towards fixing the problem.

The DMG recommends ~13 CR-appropriate encounters per level and 4 per standard adventuring day, so if they will level up twice, they will have 26 encounters and 6-7 periods of rest, or about a week in the dungeon.

[gomipile]

Now a general, if related, question of my own: just how does a party rest overnight when they are in the middle of a dungeon? How does the first fight not raise the alarms and bring the entire thing down on their heads?

Starting at level 5, a Wizard with Extend Spell can cast an extended Rope Trick that lasts 10 hours. At higher levels there is Magnificent Mansion.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Just resting eight hours doesn't get you your spells back. The rules are very specific in that you can only recover spells and 1/day abilities once per 24 hour period. Any spells you cast within the last 8 hours are not recovered when preparing your new spells. If the PCs have one encounter and go rest, they won't be to the next encounter until the next day, and that leaves plenty of time for opponents to catch on to their meddling.

Let's say the PC's try to rest inside the dungeon. The first patrol to stumble across them gets killed, and doesn't report in. A group goes investigating the patrol's disappearance, finds the PC's, and raises the alarm as they retreat without engaging. The entire dungeon/level is alerted to the PCs' presence, and they'll have to exit the dungeon and trek out a few miles and hide before they can safely rest again without clearing the whole thing out. This happens once and they'll seriously reconsider ever trying to rest inside a dungeon again, much less leaving it to come back the next day.

[AlchemicalMyst]

Just resting eight hours doesn't get you your spells back. The rules are very specific in that you can only recover spells and 1/day abilities once per 24 hour period. Any spells you cast within the last 8 hours are not recovered when preparing your new spells. If the PCs have one encounter and go rest, they won't be to the next encounter until the next day, and that leaves plenty of time for opponents to catch on to their meddling.

Let's say the PC's try to rest inside the dungeon. The first patrol to stumble across them gets killed, and doesn't report in. A group goes investigating the patrol's disappearance, finds the PC's, and raises the alarm as they retreat without engaging. The entire dungeon/level is alerted to the PCs' presence, and they'll have to exit the dungeon and trek out a few miles and hide before they can safely rest again without clearing the whole thing out. This happens once and they'll seriously reconsider ever trying to rest inside a dungeon again, much less leaving it to come back the next day.

^^^This^^^

I have honestly never heard of a party even considering resting in the middle of a "dungeon." Mainly because there is very little benefit, as pointed out above, and in a fleshed out world with a good DM they should never have the chance unless they are investigating abandoned ruins with nothing but traps and the like. Even animals and monsters aren't just going to sit and wait.


If however you are still having it be an issue, give them a time constrained mission.

[Zale]

Just resting eight hours doesn't get you your spells back. The rules are very specific in that you can only recover spells and 1/day abilities once per 24 hour period. Any spells you cast within the last 8 hours are not recovered when preparing your new spells. If the PCs have one encounter and go rest, they won't be to the next encounter until the next day, and that leaves plenty of time for opponents to catch on to their meddling.


Can you show me where the rules say this? I'm always interested in having rule misconceptions clarified.

[Jeff the Green]

Can you show me where the rules say this? I'm always interested in having rule misconceptions clarified.

Here. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm#recentCastingLimitRestInterruptio ns) And there are similar rules in the sorcerer and divine caster sections.

In my opinion, it's a good idea to ignore that for divine casters, since they can only prepare spells at a certain time of day (and thus only once per day) anyway.

[Zale]

Here. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm#recentCastingLimitRestInterruptio ns) And there are similar rules in the sorcerer and divine caster sections.

In my opinion, it's a good idea to ignore that for divine casters, since they can only prepare spells at a certain time of day (and thus only once per day) anyway.


If a wizard has cast spells recently, the drain on her resources reduces her capacity to prepare new spells. When she prepares spells for the coming day, all the spells she has cast within the last 8 hours count against her daily limit.

I'm not sure I understand. It appears to imply that if you wait 8 hours, the spells no longer count against your daily limit.

[Tvtyrant]

Why not just have the casters refresh every second combat? Then you don't need silly rest mechanics.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Can you show me where the rules say this? I'm always interested in having rule misconceptions clarified.

Just the fact that it repeatedly states (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm) spells per day, daily spells, daily limit, etc. means that those are all you get for a given day, which is already defined as a 24-hour period. That you must rest before they're refilled for the coming day as it says does not mean you get them refilled every time you rest. Resting does not cause you to regain spells, the new day is what gives you an opportunity to refresh your daily spell slots, and resting is just something you have to do to achieve that.

For divine casters it even goes on to say that you pick a specific time of day to regain your spells, and a given time of day only occurs once each day.

[TypoNinja]

Ahh the old Narcoleptic party problem.

Its pretty easy to short circuit if its becoming a problem, even a rope trick can be found if the search is determined enough.

Just remember that time doesn't stop while the PC's aren't around. It can be a pain to keep track of but encounters tasked to a certain room may not stay there if an alarm has been raised.

If you take out a patrol quickly enough they may not raise the alarm giving you time to keep moving, but you have to keep up the blitzkrieg or that stops working, the thing about patrols is they have regular check ins. A patrol NOT showing is just as alarming as a patrol that actually shouts the alarm once they are late enough. somebody will miss the critters your PC's are taking out sooner or later, we're talking minutes, not hours typically.

A dungeon on alert might change drastically, if they have the resources they might attempt to hunt down the PC's and mass up (or trap up the place), or they may move the McGuffin to another location if keeping it safe is more important than whatever its doing in its current location.

Sneaking further in might become impossible, people always forget you can't just hide, you have to have something to hide behind. Extra troops might be stationed with extra light sources to prevent any possible subterfuge if they realize something is up.

All doors would be thrown open so the sounds of combat would always clearly be heard by somebody other than those under attack.

All the annoying but effective sentry measures that aren't typically taken can suddenly be put into play if there is a heightened state of alert.

But the easiest way by far was already said. Make the party feel like they are on the clock, they'll keep pushing on until they are completely dry if they think time is of the essence. Just don't overuse this method or they might feel a little railroaded.

[Rubik]

Just resting eight hours doesn't get you your spells back. The rules are very specific in that you can only recover spells and 1/day abilities once per 24 hour period. Actually, arcane casters and psionicists are exempt from that. They gain their ability to prepare spells and replenish power points from 8 hours of rest (which can be circumvented by a ring of sustenance and a Heward's fortifying bedroll, if they manage to grab one, in which case the arcanist can be ready one hour later, and the psion/wilder/psywar/etc can be ready within a round).

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Actually, arcane casters and psionicists are exempt from that. They gain their ability to prepare spells and replenish power points from 8 hours of rest (which can be circumvented by a ring of sustenance and a Heward's fortifying bedroll, if they manage to grab one, in which case the arcanist can be ready one hour later, and the psion/wilder/psywar/etc can be ready within a round).

Nowhere does it state that 8 hours (or equivalent) of rest causes you to recover your spells. It states that you have to rest before your daily spells are recovered.

It's like filing your taxes. If you're entitled to a tax refund (spell replenishment), you have to file (rest) to get it. Filing (resting) more often than once per year (day) doesn't get you any more refunds (spell replenishment) than you would otherwise be entitled to.

[Jeff the Green]

Nowhere does it state that 8 hours (or equivalent) of rest causes you to recover your spells. It states that you have to rest before your daily spells are recovered.

It's like filing your taxes. If you're entitled to a tax refund (spell replenishment), you have to file (rest) to get it. Filing (resting) more often than once per year (day) doesn't get you any more refunds (spell replenishment) than you would otherwise be entitled to.

Right. Also, in every description of the "Spells" class feature, it says something like

Like other spellcasters, a sorcerer can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day.

[TuggyNE]

Just resting eight hours doesn't get you your spells back. The rules are very specific in that you can only recover spells and 1/day abilities once per 24 hour period.

They aren't actually as specific as you seem to think; I've never understood arcanists/psionicists to be strictly restricted to the once per day that divine casters are, despite examining the rules repeatedly. The fact is that divine casters are called out quite unambiguously as preparing at a specific time (or, more precisely, receiving divine energy at a specific time and preparing as soon as possible after that), while the wording around arcane casters only really makes it clear that preparation requires 8 hours of sleep and a further hour of quiet study. Of course, it was assumed that you only sleep once per day (and it's moderately reasonable to try and enforce that to some degree), but I have to say that it seems to have been an oversight that arcane casters aren't really restricted to once per day.


Any spells you cast within the last 8 hours are not recovered when preparing your new spells.

This is kind of useless, since the 8 hours of rest count against the clock. So this doesn't come up too often, unless you're casting spells to fend off interrupting random encounters.


I'm not sure I understand. It appears to imply that if you wait 8 hours, the spells no longer count against your daily limit.

Yes, that is the case.


Just the fact that it repeatedly states (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm) spells per day, daily spells, daily limit, etc. means that those are all you get for a given day, which is already defined as a 24-hour period. That you must rest before they're refilled for the coming day as it says does not mean you get them refilled every time you rest. Resting does not cause you to regain spells, the new day is what gives you an opportunity to refresh your daily spell slots, and resting is just something you have to do to achieve that.

That's a somewhat dubious way to figure out RAW, although it's very likely RAI (and even not improbably RACSD). But don't confuse those in your arguments, please.

All that said, it is entirely reasonable to houserule in that arcane casters and psionic characters only regain spells/PP once per day.

[hymer]

I'm trying to imagine the alien mindset of someone who stops the assault on the enemy base just when it's got started to take an 8-23 hour rest. And then repeat. I expect the enemy would just up and leave (taking their treasure) if they couldn't find out where the attackers went in these absurd intervals. That is, if they don't call in a special unit to deal with these mentally unbalanced attackers.
What do the fighter and the rogue do for all the time they just sit around waiting for the cleric and the wizard? Even worse, if they're in a rope trick. I'd go cuckoo just waiting around like that, most melee have just got warmed up and the adrenaline is rolling.

My solution: Talk to your players and go over their expectations. Tell them you'll have the dungeon react to extended time waste, but that they should not take this as a punishment for not pressing onward - just a little dose of verisimilitude to grease the game's creaky wheels.

Edit: RACSD? A little help?

[TuggyNE]

Edit: RACSD? A little help?

Rules As Common Sense Dictates: a collection of sensible rulings that don't resort to attempts to determine author intent, or rely on on-the-fly GM discretion, but are instead based on thoughtful reasoning about how things should be. Link is in my sig.

[hymer]

@ tug: Thanks!

[KillianHawkeye]

I find that a simple "You aren't tired yet" is good enough to disable unnecessary resting. You're the DM. Just say no.

[prufock]

"Like other spellcasters, a wizard can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. Her base daily spell allotment is given on Table: The Wizard. In addition, she receives bonus spells per day if she has a high Intelligence score."

What's ambiguous about this? It's clear RAW. Do days in your setting last less than 24 hours?

Day 1: You get # spells. Day 2: You get # spells. You must rest 8 hours before getting your Day 2 spells.

As for limiting the number of rest points, you can have time sensitive quests or have intelligent enemies who aren't going to sit around and wait while they rest.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

That's a somewhat dubious way to figure out RAW, although it's very likely RAI (and even not improbably RACSD). But don't confuse those in your arguments, please.

All that said, it is entirely reasonable to houserule in that arcane casters and psionic characters only regain spells/PP once per day.

There is absolutely zero RAW that states that the rest itself is what causes you to recover spells. It's nothing more than a hoop that you're required to jump through to get your daily spells back.


Nowhere does it state that 8 hours (or equivalent) of rest causes you to recover your spells. It states that you have to rest before your daily spells are recovered.

It's like filing your taxes. If you're entitled to a tax refund (spell replenishment), you have to file (rest) to get it. Filing (resting) more often than once per year (day) doesn't get you any more refunds (spell replenishment) than you would otherwise be entitled to.

[tyckspoon]

I'm trying to imagine the alien mindset of someone who stops the assault on the enemy base just when it's got started to take an 8-23 hour rest. And then repeat.


It's usually associated with casters who absolutely *smash* one or two encounters by dumping all of their high-level spells out as fast as possible. Once you've cast all of your highest-level spells you are significantly less capable of dealing with any enemies of note, and may reasonably want to withdraw and re-prepare.. basically the '15 minute day' is using one level of optimization (how easily you can withdraw and establish a safe resting point) to cover for a lack in another area (not knowing which spells to choose so that you don't *have* to dump them all to win your fights.) It doesn't necessarily have to involve trying to wrangle multiple sets of spell preps into a single 24-hour period unless you are doing a race-the-clock scenario, either; if you have time to blow on something, it works just as well (if not better, since it gives time for the alarm level to go back down) to actually pull back and wait for the next 24-hour clock to start.

[hymer]

@ tyckspoon: Thanks for the patient explanation. :smallsmile:
I was thinking about it from a role/character perspective, though. For most actual persons in most actual situations, it would be very strange behaviour. And for an actual modus operandi, it's pretty robotic.

[haplessvictim]

Just remember that time doesn't stop while the PC's aren't around. It can be a pain to keep track of but encounters tasked to a certain room may not stay there if an alarm has been raised.

Right. Clearly, I need to make the dungeon inhabitants more aggressive; I was just worried about this seeming punitive or, as you say, railroad-y. The current scenario is all planned out and there is already a ticking clock of sorts, but I'll try to some put some more (subtle) emphasis on that.

I'll also take another poster's advice and talk to the players a bit before the game, so they understand the changing, reactive nature of this underground complex, and that they'll have to deal with the consequences of their raids.

[haplessvictim]

@ tyckspoon: Thanks for the patient explanation.
I was thinking about it from a role/character perspective, though. For most actual persons in most actual situations, it would be very strange behaviour. And for an actual modus operandi, it's pretty robotic.

I think, actually, it's very logical behaviour: don't put yourself at risk when you're at less than optimal condition. And it's not just the spell-casters who are driving the fight-rest-repeat cycle; the melee combatants (a rogue and a sword-and-board fighter) can get beat up pretty badly in combat-- they're first level remember -- and don't want to go on to another fight with half or less of their hit-points.

[Aegis013]

...Heward's fortifying bedroll...

As I recall that item specifically calls out that it does not bypass the total of 9 hours the Wizard needs. So you'd be fully rested in one and spend the next 7 waiting around for the resting time to finish up.

Edit: At least that's how I understood the last clause in the Effect. There is room for other interpretations.

[hymer]

@ haplessvictim: Logical sure. Too logical, 'robotic' as I called it. And it breaks down upon contact with the opposition (if they're intelligent beings with the ability to react, of course - not always a given in D&D), especially once the opposition figures out how the attackers behave.
Usually, if your only objective is 'survival', you don't go dangerous places to begin with. So usually you're hoping for something more from your dungeon crawl. Pulling back allows the opposition the time to think and act, possibly moving your objective to a new place (or going burnt ground on you), call in reinforcements/authorities, shore up the weakness in their defences, or just run away.
Of course, guerilla fighting is a viable tactic in many cases. But it's actually best if you're badly outgunned, and that's because it's all you got in that case, if you insist on fighting. It's best because every other option suck.

[Rubik]

As I recall that item specifically calls out that it does not bypass the total of 9 hours the Wizard needs. So you'd be fully rested in one and spend the next 7 waiting around for the resting time to finish up.Actually, it specifically calls it out that you do do that. You just can't use it more than once every other day (though two characters could alternate, since it functions once per day -- just not for the same person).

As far as the ring goes:

This ring continually provides its wearer with life-sustaining nourishment. The ring also refreshes the body and mind, so that its wearer needs only sleep 2 hours per day to gain the benefit of 8 hours of sleep.

And resting to refresh yourself so you can regain spell slots/power points is one of the benefits of 8 hours of sleep, so you'd gain that from the ring of sustenance as well.

[Aegis013]

Actually, it specifically calls it out that you do do that. You just can't use it more than once every other day (though two characters could alternate, since it functions once per day -- just not for the same person).

The last clause being "Spells cast within the last 8 hours still count against your daily limit as normal." So if you dump all of your spells out, rest with the bedroll for 1, and try to reprepare, you have no slots recovered, right?

[Yora]

Can you show me where the rules say this? I'm always interested in having rule misconceptions clarified.
The SRD says:

When she prepares spells for the coming day, all the spells she has cast within the last 8 hours count against her daily limit.
Spells are prepared after resting not before. And it doesn't say When she prepares spells and has cast spells in the 8 hours before resting.
However, you don't have to prepare spells immideately once the 8 hours resting time are over. You could still prestidigitate your coffee hot and then sit down to prepare spells for the day. That spell would be counting against the new daily limit.
Or you can rest for 4 hours, cast endure elements because it's cold, and rest 5 more hours and then be able to prepare spells, except for that one 1st level slot.

[Rubik]

The last clause being "Spells cast within the last 8 hours still count against your daily limit as normal." So if you dump all of your spells out, rest with the bedroll for 1, and try to reprepare, you have no slots recovered, right?...I really need to start rereading stuff before I post.

The ring, however, still works, as one of the benefits of 8 hours of rest is 8 hours of time passing, which you gain in the 2 hours the ring still requires.

[tyckspoon]

Of course, guerilla fighting is a viable tactic in many cases. But it's actually best if you're badly outgunned, and that's because it's all you got in that case, if you insist on fighting. It's best because every other option suck.

1st level characters generally *are* badly outgunned; it's kind of what being 1st level means. Withdrawing after a fight where you had to spend significant resources in spells and HP makes perfect sense, and 'significant resources' for a 1st level party is a pretty low bar. Very cautious tactics like this are the best way to survive to levels where you can afford to be more aggressive.

(Also *everybody* should have a bow/crossbow/throwing weapon in hand and ready to use at all times. You may want to flank and do melee sneak attacks or do your sword-and-shield knight thing, but the best fight is the one where the DM says "you shove open the door and surprise 2 goblin guards" and your party goes "we all shoot them" and end it in the surprise round.)

[willpell]

(something like "refreshing spells more than once per day causes undue stress on the mind and may lead to going insane and deciding that it would be really funny to do things like crossbreeding owls with bears or building flesh golems or creating permanent portals between Downtown Kingsport and the Elemental Plane of Fire."

Fixed that for you. Doing it this way would explain a lot about the setting, IMO. If the players are going to do everything the rules will let them get away with, it only makes sense that they'd end up being the weirdoes that end up running the world and making it so messed-up.

[Aegis013]

...I really need to start rereading stuff before I post.

The ring, however, still works, as one of the benefits of 8 hours of rest is 8 hours of time passing, which you gain in the 2 hours the ring still requires.

I think the DM could adjudicate whether he believes that time passing is a benefit and if that works, since I'm unsure that time passage is a benefit. Especially if you're using things like hour/level buffs.

Though, I certainly understand the first time I read that item I thought it was an item for Wizards to make them that much more absurd, but it's not quite. It's still a great item though.

Like I edited earlier though, there's room for other interpretations, like the passage of time as a benefit.

[Winter_Wolf]

Right. Clearly, I need to make the dungeon inhabitants more aggressive; I was just worried about this seeming punitive or, as you say, railroad-y. The current scenario is all planned out and there is already a ticking clock of sorts, but I'll try to some put some more (subtle) emphasis on that.

I'll also take another poster's advice and talk to the players a bit before the game, so they understand the changing, reactive nature of this underground complex, and that they'll have to deal with the consequences of their raids.

Imagine you live in a large complex which is your HOME. Your HOME is well patrolled and generally kept in a state of repair to allow you and your kin to live there in relative comfort and safety. Now imagine a group of violent sociopaths kicks in the front door/smashes a hole in the wall/whatever violence they use to gain entrance to your HOME. Would you, or any sentient creature just let these freaks come in, kill a few of you, then let them peacefully rest for a while? Or would you sent out word to hide the children and weak ones, then send every available warrior to ambush and neutralize those violent sociopaths before they strike again?

I consider an intelligence of 3 enough for any creature to know that "invaders have broken into my home, and my choices are either: run away, or defend my patch." Unless severely outmatched and they know it, most creatures will fight really fiercely when their home is threatened. Even if outgunned, some will still choose to fight.

[Rubik]

Imagine you live in a large complex which is your HOME. Your HOME is well patrolled and generally kept in a state of repair to allow you and your kin to live there in relative comfort and safety. Now imagine a group of violent sociopaths kicks in the front door/smashes a hole in the wall/whatever violence they use to gain entrance to your HOME. Would you, or any sentient creature just let these freaks come in, kill a few of you, then let them peacefully rest for a while? Or would you sent out word to hide the children and weak ones, then send every available warrior to ambush and neutralize those violent sociopaths before they strike again?

I consider an intelligence of 3 enough for any creature to know that "invaders have broken into my home, and my choices are either: run away, or defend my patch." Unless severely outmatched and they know it, most creatures will fight really fiercely when their home is threatened. Even if outgunned, some will still choose to fight.http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=155518

[Arcanist]

I consider an intelligence of 3 enough for any creature to know that "invaders have broken into my home, and my choices are either: run away, or defend my patch." Unless severely outmatched and they know it, most creatures will fight really fiercely when their home is threatened. Even if outgunned, some will still choose to fight.

Actually it doesn't take that much. A creature of raw instinct understands the concept of Fight V Flight which means that if you bust into anythings home you damn well better expect a fight until either one combatant is dead or ceases combat.

[Dsurion]

Having X Per Day resources and low hit points are the source of the problem, not the resting.

I've done away with X per day entirely in my games, using mostly Warlock-based casting and making abilities like Rage at-will for an encounter, and give bonus HP to everyone at the start (you gain your Constitution score in HP at level one, rather than Con bonus).

Alternatively, if you think that's too much of a change, why not just start at a different level?

[TypoNinja]

Having X Per Day resources and low hit points are the source of the problem, not the resting.


This is a inherent problem in the very early levels, so far in my groups we tend to either just deal with it, or start at 3-5th.

[Winter_Wolf]

Actually it doesn't take that much. A creature of raw instinct understands the concept of Fight V Flight which means that if you bust into anythings home you damn well better expect a fight until either one combatant is dead or ceases combat.

So true. I was just pulling the low-end organized resistance number out of the ether, like orcs with learning disabilities. Your basic real world animal will defend its lair against intrusion.

I just see no reason why a 15 minute adventuring day should ever be an issue in an actual dungeon environment populated with intelligent (or even non-intelligent) monsters. One could make a solid case for it if it were an abandoned tomb with nothing in it but traps and stationary threats, but that would be rather boring (for me anyway).

I'm actually glad I never heard of the 15 minute adventuring day in 2E, because it could take a long, long time for a mid- to high-level caster to remember all their spells. Luckily groups I've played in alloted sufficient downtime between adventures for it, then again, you weren't going to regain spells in an underground/indoor adventure, or the villains might die of old age. :smallwink:

[Dairuga]

I am curious where these 24 hour rules come from, given that these rules do not seem to be explicitly vague at all. From the SRD, it promptly says:


"Recent Casting Limit/Rest Interruptions
If a wizard has cast spells recently, the drain on her resources reduces her capacity to prepare new spells. When she prepares spells for the coming day, all the spells she has cast within the last 8 hours count against her daily limit."

Strictly by Raw, it means that all spells cast within 8 hours count towards the daily limit. By the same token, it means spells cast further than 8 hours away does -not- count towards this limit.

This means, quite simply, that after eight hours of rest and an hour of preparation, the spells you have cast is usually over nine hours away, and thus do not count towards your Daily limit.


...I really need to start rereading stuff before I post.

The ring, however, still works, as one of the benefits of 8 hours of rest is 8 hours of time passing, which you gain in the 2 hours the ring still requires.

Furthermore, to clarify the ring of Sustenance and Heward's Fortifying bedroll, no; they do not let you prepare spells any faster. The effects of Ring of Sustenance and the Fortifying Bedroll makes it so that two hours, and one hour is needed to gain the benefit of eight hours of sleep, respectively.

In no way does 8 hours pass when you only sleep for two hours; only two hours have passed, but you are considered to have been resting for eight hours. Yes, it will let you rest for two hours, and then spend one hour (or 15 minutes, or anything inbetween) to prepare spells, but only three hours will have passed, and spells cast within the remainder of the 8 hour timeframe will still count within that limit.

This is specifically stated in the clause of Heward's Fortifying bedroll, explaining the mechanics of how it works.
Heward's fortifying bedroll grants you the benefits of a full 8 hours of rest—including the elimination of fatigue or exhaustion, natural healing, and the ability to prepare or ready arcane spells— over the course of a single hour. Spells cast within the last 8 hours still count against your daily limit as normal.

It fully explains that even despite it grants the ability to replenish spells after one an hours of rest, much like the ring of sustenance can do after two hours. It does not, however, let you replenish spells beyond the eight hour rule.

Now, one might argue that this text does not appear on the Ring of sustenance, and thus makes Ring of sustenance an exempt from this rule, but then you might just as well say that the Ring of Sustenance does not explicitly say that spells cast within 8 hours does not count towards your limit, and therefore it does not.

Since no exceptions is listed, one should assume that the rules work as per default, and all spells cast within eight hours count towards your daily limit, no matter how much rest you get in between these eight hours passing (Beyond the first 8, that is).

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Strictly by Raw, it means that all spells cast within 8 hours count towards the daily limit. By the same token, it means spells cast further than 8 hours away does -not- count towards this limit.

This means, quite simply, that after eight hours of rest and an hour of preparation, the spells you have cast is usually over nine hours away, and thus do not count towards your Daily limit.

Nope. Your daily spells are only replenished daily, nowhere does it state otherwise. That there's an additional limit of eight hours does not in any way override the daily limit.

It says that you need to have gotten at least 8 hours of rest, and that you must have spent 1 hour of uninterrupted rest before preparing spells. Let's say an adventuring party rests, and the next morning the Wizard still has Greater Resistance and Greater Mage Armor prepared, so he casts them to have the spells active all day thinking he can just fill those spell slots back up immediately. Nope, that's why the 8-hour rule is there.

Let's say they hustle out to the adventuring site, and everyone is exhausted by the time they get there, so they all take an 8-hour nap outside. That's their required eight hours of rest, but it's still the same day, though that Wizard can fill those two spell slots for the day since he's now outside of that 8-hour limit. They dive into the dungeon and adventure all night.

The next morning it's time to prepare spells again, so they take the required one hour of rest before preparing spells, since they've already gotten their required eight hours. During that night of adventuring all of their spells end up falling into that 8-hour rule though, so they're thwarted again, despite it being the next day. That Wizard will still need another eight hours of rest before filling those two spell slots again, assuming he's used them.

Your spells per day are on a daily limit. There's an additional limit of eight hours which does not in any way override the daily limit. That you have to rest for eight hours (or equivalent) is nothing but a hoop you have to jump through, it is not what causes your spells to be recovered and it cannot be done more often than once each day to recover spells more often.
"To prepare her daily spells, a wizard must first sleep for 8 hours."
They're your daily spells, exactly what it says on the tin. That sentence does not state or even imply that any time you rest for 8 hours you get your spells back. It says to prepare your daily spells you must have rested for 8 hours.

[Agincourt]

Some players have confused a necessary condition, with a sufficient condition. Having 8 hours of rest is a necessary condition to getting new spells, but nowhere do the rules state that is sufficient to getting new spells.

The Ring of Sustenance and Heward's Fortifying bedroll makes it easier to meet just one necessary condition. They in no way override the other requirements to get new spells. You cannot override your daily allowance of spells by resting more often.

[jedipilot24]

There's a very simple way to prevent the 15 minute day.
Get the Trailblazer book.
One of the new rules in Trailblazer is the 10 minute rest.
Rest for ten minutes and you recover up to 50% of your hitpoints, all per-day abilities, and most spells.

[TypoNinja]

There's a very simple way to prevent the 15 minute day.
Get the Trailblazer book.
One of the new rules in Trailblazer is the 10 minute rest.
Rest for ten minutes and you recover up to 50% of your hitpoints, all per-day abilities, and most spells.

Depending on what 'most' spells are, that could be truly heinous.

The only downside spell casters have over melee is limited resources. Fighter can swing his sword all day, you only have X number of spells a spell level a day. If I get to refill between every combat....

Please tell me it limits you to spell levels half your maximum or something.

[LeshLush]

Having X Per Day resources and low hit points are the source of the problem, not the resting.
Funny, we never thought it was a problem when we were playing AD&D.

[TypoNinja]

Funny, we never thought it was a problem when we were playing AD&D.

I always thought the whole point of a caster was planning ahead, sure you could end the encounter right now with the right magic, but should you? Maybe you need it later for something serious where magic is the difference between winning and losing instead of the difference between winning and overkill.

[Sugashane]

^^^This^^^

I have honestly never heard of a party even considering resting in the middle of a "dungeon." Mainly because there is very little benefit, as pointed out above, and in a fleshed out world with a good DM they should never have the chance unless they are investigating abandoned ruins with nothing but traps and the like. Even animals and monsters aren't just going to sit and wait.


If however you are still having it be an issue, give them a time constrained mission.

The trick we use to do was in heavy espionage missions, where we would surely be killed if an alarm sounded. We had a large portable hole and (after we had expelled almost all of our magic abilities) found the storage room. We all jumped into the hole, then had the Druid fold it up. Opened it BEHIND a large stack of boxes being used for storage, where there was only about 6 inches between the walls and the stack of stores. Then shapeshifting into a snake, he was able to join us.

Not arguing with you in the slightest, it is highly unusual and as I have found a semi-desperate act to rest in enemy territory, but being imaginative can allow you to get away with things that might sound a bit absurd at the beginning.

[Arkturas]

Nope. Your daily spells are only replenished daily, nowhere does it state otherwise. That there's an additional limit of eight hours does not in any way override the daily limit.

It says that you need to have gotten at least 8 hours of rest, and that you must have spent 1 hour of uninterrupted rest before preparing spells. Let's say an adventuring party rests, and the next morning the Wizard still has Greater Resistance and Greater Mage Armor prepared, so he casts them to have the spells active all day thinking he can just fill those spell slots back up immediately. Nope, that's why the 8-hour rule is there.

Let's say they hustle out to the adventuring site, and everyone is exhausted by the time they get there, so they all take an 8-hour nap outside. That's their required eight hours of rest, but it's still the same day, though that Wizard can fill those two spell slots for the day since he's now outside of that 8-hour limit. They dive into the dungeon and adventure all night.

The next morning it's time to prepare spells again, so they take the required one hour of rest before preparing spells, since they've already gotten their required eight hours. During that night of adventuring all of their spells end up falling into that 8-hour rule though, so they're thwarted again, despite it being the next day. That Wizard will still need another eight hours of rest before filling those two spell slots again, assuming he's used them.

Your spells per day are on a daily limit. There's an additional limit of eight hours which does not in any way override the daily limit. That you have to rest for eight hours (or equivalent) is nothing but a hoop you have to jump through, it is not what causes your spells to be recovered and it cannot be done more often than once each day to recover spells more often.
"To prepare her daily spells, a wizard must first sleep for 8 hours."
They're your daily spells, exactly what it says on the tin. That sentence does not state or even imply that any time you rest for 8 hours you get your spells back. It says to prepare your daily spells you must have rested for 8 hours.


You don't think perhaps that is there to prevent a wizard from doing two consecutive rest periods and claiming doubled spells slots in a lawyerish fashion?

It says that any spells cast in the 8 hours previous to the prep period nix new spells slots, as does any spells not cast previously.

Why would it not say "in the previous 24 hours?"

[navar100]

Don't have every combat require using up a lot of resources. When the party is 6th level have them fight 1 or 2 HD creatures. They were tough when the party was 1st level, but now that they are 6th let them show how bada$$ they are. If the Fighter has Great Cleave or Whirlwind Attack, he gets to use it and be happy. The wizard may cast one Burning Hands and be done. The cleric might not even bother casting Bless or any buff spell and just swing his mace. The rogue saves time by searching the room while the bad guys are occupied. Not every combat needs to be "challenging".

[ericgrau]

So true. I was just pulling the low-end organized resistance number out of the ether, like orcs with learning disabilities. Your basic real world animal will defend its lair against intrusion.

I just see no reason why a 15 minute adventuring day should ever be an issue in an actual dungeon environment populated with intelligent (or even non-intelligent) monsters. One could make a solid case for it if it were an abandoned tomb with nothing in it but traps and stationary threats, but that would be rather boring (for me anyway).

I'm actually glad I never heard of the 15 minute adventuring day in 2E, because it could take a long, long time for a mid- to high-level caster to remember all their spells. Luckily groups I've played in alloted sufficient downtime between adventures for it, then again, you weren't going to regain spells in an underground/indoor adventure, or the villains might die of old age. :smallwink:

Pretty much this. Even if you use a tactic to rest, there are plenty of countertactics often available at a lower level.

Play the monsters intelligently, and include a couple with basic ways to track down enemies like track or detect spells.

[Ashtagon]

Funny, we never thought it was a problem when we were playing AD&D.

Speaking of AD&D, did you know that the base duration of rope trick tripled in the switch to 3e? The standard 3e way to rest in dungeons simply wasn't possible in 2e.

[TypoNinja]

Speaking of AD&D, did you know that the base duration of rope trick tripled in the switch to 3e? The standard 3e way to rest in dungeons simply wasn't possible in 2e.

but... a rope trick that won't last you all night is practically useless.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You don't think perhaps that is there to prevent a wizard from doing two consecutive rest periods and claiming doubled spells slots in a lawyerish fashion?

It says that any spells cast in the 8 hours previous to the prep period nix new spells slots, as does any spells not cast previously.

Why would it not say "in the previous 24 hours?"

Everything you just posted is a Red Herring.

If he wasn't able to recover any spells cast in the past 24 hours, then he wouldn't get a given spell slot back until at least 24 hours after he'd used it. That would basically switch it to spells-per-every-other-day, unless he sticks to casting long-duration or persistent buffs immediately after preparing them. Plus it would be a bookkeeping nightmare.

[Rubik]

Depending on what 'most' spells are, that could be truly heinous.

The only downside spell casters have over melee is limited resources. Fighter can swing his sword all day, you only have X number of spells a spell level a day. If I get to refill between every combat....

Please tell me it limits you to spell levels half your maximum or something....You do realize that the vast majority of noncasters have WAY less endurance than casters past around level 4 or 5, right? Any primary spellcaster can cast a spell every single round of combat for the allotted 4 combats a day and last longer than a fighter who takes a level-appropriate hit every round of each of those same combats (minus those rebuffed by their level-appropriate AC, of course).

If the casters are reserving spells to last longer, the fighter can say goodbye to all those healing spells cast on him, because the cleric needs to save them to extend his ability to take out threats.

I give him two encounters before he dies, tops.

[Ashtagon]

but... a rope trick that won't last you all night is practically useless.

If you can't think of other ways to use the spell, you aren't trying very hard.

Off the top of my head, ladder, ambush site, refuge from floodwater, observation platform.

[hymer]

Rope Trick lasted 2 turns/lvl (that's 20 minutes per level to the young'uns) in 2nd ed. Its primary use was as a sort of stationary invisibility sphere (10' radius as it was then), a place to seek refuge when pursued or wanting to get to the other side of a patrol without fighting.
The Rope Trick then was harder to find than Rope Trick in 3.5 (which just requires the ability to see invisible things).

[TuggyNE]

If you can't think of other ways to use the spell, you aren't trying very hard.

Off the top of my head, ladder, ambush site, refuge from floodwater, observation platform.

To add to that, those other ways of using the spell are the non-abusive ones.

A level 2 slot for the entire party to avoid enemies for CL hours with near-total immunity and a quiet environment is just not sensible.

[nedz]

If the casters are reserving spells to last longer, the fighter can say goodbye to all those healing spells cast on him, because the cleric needs to save them to extend his ability to take out threats.

I give him two encounters before he dies, tops.
Wands are a thing.

To add to that, those other ways of using the spell are the non-abusive ones.

A level 2 slot for the entire party to avoid enemies for CL hours with near-total immunity and a quiet environment is just not sensible.

So we have an easy bake fix then.

[jedipilot24]

Depending on what 'most' spells are, that could be truly heinous.

The only downside spell casters have over melee is limited resources. Fighter can swing his sword all day, you only have X number of spells a spell level a day. If I get to refill between every combat....

Please tell me it limits you to spell levels half your maximum or something.

Actually it limits spells by how they function.
Trailblazer also uses Action Points. Resting 10 minutes without expending an action point gets you back: all 0-level spells and all single-target spells with a duration of 1 min/level or less. All per-day abilities (Smite Evil, Rage, etc),
and 50% of normal hp. Also, any ongoing spell effects on your person are dispelled when your rest is complete, regardless of any duration they may have remaining. This does not apply to spells with instantaneous or permanent durations; however it does apply to spells both beneficial and harmful, regardless of their origin.
Resting 10 minutes and expending an action point gets you back: another 50% hp (which will restore you to full health), all AOE or multiple target spell, all spells with a duration of 10 minutes/level or longer, and any Conjuration (creation, calling, teleport).
Spells with an XP cost or with an unusual/expensive component or that are game breakers (Commune/Divination, Raise Dead, Teleport, DM's discretion) are refreshed at the cost of 1 action point per spell.

[mcv]

My group has slept in a dungeon. It was a secret temple underneath an official hospice. We were there illegally, and we were sure reinforcements would eventually arrive. We were uncovering big secrets, and we needed to press on. We couldn't turn back or leave before we were done.

We had a couple of really tough encounters, and were practically tapped out. Discussing whether to continue, we decided that we had to. Do or die. So we pressed on for a couple of tough fights, increasingly low on resources. Eventually, we really, really had to rest. Barricaded, all sorts of security measure to make sure reinforcements couldn't get in, and we'd be alerted if any remaining denizens of the temple would try to get out.

It worked, and we cleaned up everything the next day. But it wasn't a decision taken lightly.

In general, play the denizens of your dungeon intelligently. They're there to do stuff, right? They move around occasionally. Even if they don't have patrols, if you're going to give them days, they will figure out that there are intruders, and they will take appropriate measures. Could be ambushes, could be they escape with all the loot.

Older editions had 10 minute turns. At the time I found it silly to call 10 minutes a turn, but recently I've come to the realization that this would be an excellent time scale for the defenders to move about. Every 10 minutes, there's a chance that you're discovered, a chance of a random encounter. Once you're discovered, every 10 minutes allows the defenders to do something. To organize their defenses, get reinforcements, set up an ambush, escape, barricade some corridors that you could previously move through unopposed, etc.

Against a dungeon populated by intelligent beings, a dungeon crawl should be a blitz. The blitzkrieg doctrine is basically: concentrate your attacks, break through enemy lines, sow confusion among the defenders and exploit that confusion while you continue pressing on. The PCs need to take the element of surprise and exploit it as far as they can. Overrun the defenses, don't give them time to reorganize and mount a counterattack.

Of course when the dungeon is abandoned and mostly empty except for some oozes and animals, it's a different matter. In that case, plenty of rooms will be empty, but that also means that the PCs will be able to do quite a lot of exploration without expending too many resources.

[Blue1005]

Actually it limits spells by how they function.
Trailblazer also uses Action Points. Resting 10 minutes without expending an action point gets you back: all 0-level spells and all single-target spells with a duration of 1 min/level or less. All per-day abilities (Smite Evil, Rage, etc),
and 50% of normal hp. Also, any ongoing spell effects on your person are dispelled when your rest is complete, regardless of any duration they may have remaining. This does not apply to spells with instantaneous or permanent durations; however it does apply to spells both beneficial and harmful, regardless of their origin.
Resting 10 minutes and expending an action point gets you back: another 50% hp (which will restore you to full health), all AOE or multiple target spell, all spells with a duration of 10 minutes/level or longer, and any Conjuration (creation, calling, teleport).
Spells with an XP cost or with an unusual/expensive component or that are game breakers (Commune/Divination, Raise Dead, Teleport, DM's discretion) are refreshed at the cost of 1 action point per spell.



Did i miss reading the books totally? Where in 3.5 are there action points?

[hymer]

In Eberron.

[Dsurion]

Action Points are also in the SRD (http://dndsrd.net/unearthedCombat.html).

[Blue1005]

Action Points are also in the SRD (http://dndsrd.net/unearthedCombat.html).

Never knew that, i thought it was new for 4th ed. How many people use them in 3.5?

[Rubik]

Never knew that, i thought it was new for 4th ed. How many people use them in 3.5?Three and a half.

[hymer]

Backing up the cube: *ba-dum-tisch* (http://instantrimshot.com/index.php?sound=rimshot)

We don't use action points in my gaming group(s) when we play 3.5. We have a homebrew system of rerolls instead.

[Blue1005]

Three and a half.

So funny :smallamused:

Yeah, i have played 3.5 a long time and just hear about it, i was confused.

to the OP..

I saw you can sleep now straight up, i hate how some groups do things.

I love timed missions and think there should be a lot more used, everything in life is timed anyway...

[Dsurion]

Never knew that, i thought it was new for 4th ed. How many people use them in 3.5?I use a bastardized version of it, gaining points for specific actions instead of at the beginning of each level. It depends on the genre, theme, or style of the game though. For example, in the d20 Swashbuckling game I'm running, you get a single point for defeating an enemy ship's captain in single combat, for salvaging a vessel, or for rescuing a crew, along with plenty of other ways.

I allow a point to be spent to: add d10 to any single roll, Heal Con Score in HP,
Gain a +4 to AC, or shake off Disease, Poison, or Fatigue. More points can be spent for other things.

[Ashtagon]

Action points were first published in d20 Modern, then Unearthed Arcana. Complete Divine had a specialised group of feats that had a similar function, but taking those feats was its own punishment.

I use a twisted version of action points...

* Your Charisma modifier applies to your maximum number of action points.
* Each game day in which the GM judges you to have done something suitably dramatic, you may make a DC 10 Charisma check to regain an action point.
* At the end of any week in which you haven't regained any action points as a result of suitably dramatic actions, you gain one action point.
* Gaining a level restores your action point tally to full.

I've also been working on ways that most feats can be used to gain a special benefit from action points. For example, the "skill bonus" feats let you roll d10s instead of d6s when spending an action point on a relevant skill roll (in addition to their normal effect).