[3.5] being evil..

[animewatcha]

There are 'easy ways' to be 'officially' evil like summoning pazuzu enough times. What I am wondering is how can one prove to a DM that are you capable of actually being evil ( not the bat**** insane and kill everyone type ). This being for the purpose of being able to select evil classes/acfs/etc. in the future. Preferably done with one-shot type characters ( my luck with them ). Rest of party generally winds up being either good or neutral.

[Acanous]

Kick the dog moments. Don't go out of your way to be cartoonishly evil, like slaughtering people just because Evlulz, I mean like literally finding out what would HURT someone, then doing THAT.

Also, Slavery, racism, sexism, rape, and child molestation take you straight into Evil territory. Your group will probably look at YOU like you're a horrible person for playing some of those.

[tyckspoon]

It helps if you actually know what your DM thinks 'evil' means. There's a lot of overlap between evil that acts with intelligence and discretion and neutrals that are just big jerks (but probably not full Evil), at least IMO, and he might be of the opinion that you aren't actually Evil unless you're performing villainous acts of dog-kickery at every opportunity. Which would make it a bit hard to coexist with Good/altruistic-leaning Neutral party members.

[Jeff the Green]

It really depends on the nature of the evil character. Evil can be as banal as an inn-keeper that cheats his customers, or a hunter that beats his dogs, or a guard captain that is racist against gnomes and tries to get them all imprisoned.

It can also be as flamboyant as human(oid) sacrifice, rape, torture, cannibalism, and summoning demons without wanton murder.

Is there a particular character you're thinking of?

[Dayaz]

use demons/devils for information brokering. Bind celestials, torture them for some info, give it to demons for gifts and favors. Form cults dedicated to not stupid evil gods, ones that are more subtle.

Be a politician. It's faster than summoning Pazuzu 3+ times.

[animewatcha]

My goal is I wanna be able to take evil-based acfs like dark moon sub level or evil-based templates ( unseelie fey ) whenever I want for builds and such. It's just 'qualifying for it' and my luck with dice and few amount of times I can play = one-time characters usually.

[Seharvepernfan]

Be a politician. It's faster than summoning Pazuzu 3+ times.

Seconded.

Also, just look at Belkar for inspiration. He's evil. Within sight of the party, he does barely-evil things that he knows they won't really punish him for, but when they're away and/or he can get away with it, he does the really-evil stuff. That's pretty much how real-life psychopaths are - look nice when people are looking, be bad when they aren't.

[Rubik]

I played an evil goblin psion once, and he was generally just grouchy, but when given the chance to cause suffering to people he thought were stupid (and given his Int of 30+, was pretty much everyone, including gods) without consequence, he took it. He liked hemming in his foes during battle and chipping away at their hp slowly, while they couldn't do anything to stop it, and he tried to make them bleed out as painfully as he could any time he could. He also made suggestions outside of fights that were unnecessarily cruel, but within the bounds of what some people would consider "extreme, but not horrific." His Charisma was incredibly high as well, and he did try to look like a nice guy and sweet-talk others who were more powerful than him when he could use that to get him what he wanted, but it was primarily SO he could get what he wanted. If he felt he could overpower someone and hurt them to get it he would do so, but only if he felt there was no risk of him getting caught doing so. He was a coward and had a silver tongue, but also frequently subtle, cruel, and arrogant (though he'd "read the Evil Overlord list" and was savvy enough not to do most of that stuff).

The party was actually fairly terrified of him, and even though he was a double-agent for the BBEG, he frequently betrayed her for the survival of the party (as he was a triple-agent for the party -- yes, he played both sides against each other, and all for his own benefit). By the end of the game he'd single-handedly taken down several threats that very nearly TPK'd the rest of his party (through clever tactics, rather than overwhelming power), and they were convinced that he could slaughter them if he wanted. Not necessarily true, but he encouraged them to believe it so they wouldn't turn on him.

The fact that he stole all the ancient artifacts the group had been trying to keep out of Evil's hands and used them while hiding them under his clothing in secret certainly helped, and he managed to one-shot the BBEG when she outed him to the party. He spat on her hole-ridden corpse with a "Don't **** with someone whose brain is hung like a horse" and took the artifact staff she wielded. The party readied itself for a fight to the death, but he just looked at them and asked if they were going to be sleeping under hedges again, because he wanted a nice comfortable inn with a cute serving boy or three, damnit.

He was fun.

[Slipperychicken]

Act like a PC. Be an opportunist. Have a goal, and stop caring if your means are good or bad. Profit is a good one for our purposes. But don't do evil because it's evil. Do it because you're selfish and hateful when it benefits you.


When you see a merchant struggling in the night and his horse ran off, you cast Sleep on him and take at least one bag of his merchandise, if not the whole load. Killing is optional. Leaving him with nothing is acceptable.

When you kill a wolf pack, stack the bodies onto your cart and sell the hides later. It felt more evil at the time, disrespecting the sanctity of life or whatever.

When that goblin raider lies beaten and bleeding out, kick his gut and spit in his face. Insult him for being a stain on the earth. Get him conscious so you can use him as a human shield against his tribe. Make him scream.

If you have a cart, keep your surviving enemies hogtied in a cage (prices in A&EG) so you can sell them to the slavers. They're not people, they're monsters, and they deserve everything that comes to them. Be sure to bind their mouths to muffle their screams and crocodile tears. If you do feed them, give them 1/2 or 1/4 the normal ration amount. If you encounter more "loot" which brings you over the weight limit, kill the least valuable slave, dump his body to make room.

A child is crushed under a fallen log. Check its pockets. Walk away.

A defenseless civilian carries something valuable in the wilderness. Shoot her. Take it. If she's still alive, have some fun with her. She was walking unprotected of her own free will, so she wanted you to do it anyway.

When you have the quest item, haggle for more money than was agreed. If the questgiver refuses, destroy the item or sell it to someone else.

[tyckspoon]

Act like a PC. Be an opportunist. Have a goal, and stop caring if your means are good or bad. Profit is a good one for our purposes. But don't do evil because it's evil. Do it because you're selfish and hateful when it benefits you...


The main problem with this is that you will eventually hit the tipping point between 'unpleasant but we put up with him because he's a useful party member' and 'the Good members of the party gank you for the betterment of the world', and you might not know *where* that tipping point is until you actually hit it... and unless you cross that tipping point, your DM might not agree that you are in fact Evil. (Not that his opinion should *matter*- if you say your character's alignment is some variety of Evil and being Evil is allowed in the game, then he's Evil unless your actions *blatantly* and consistently contradict that.)

[headwarpage]

If you're playing one-shot characters, why do you need to convince the DM that you're evil? Write "Evil" on your character sheet, take whatever feats, PrCs, or ACFs you want during character creation, and enjoy.

But if you want to be evil without feeling like a caricature or freaking out your gaming group, all you really need to do is not care too much about other people. You don't need to go out of your way to hurt people, because not every evil character has rape, murder, and torture as hobbies. Just accomplish your goals (whatever they are) in the most efficient way possible, don't worry too much about the effect on other people, and be willing to do at least some things that other people might balk at. Sometimes a session or two will go by without you doing anything blatantly evil - that's just the way things go.

Playing a believably evil character who isn't a sociopath is hard, because they aren't obviously evil most of the time, and most of the evil things they do can be rationalized as not evil, especially if they're lawful evil (by far the most common kind of evil, IMO). But really, if you're having arguments about alignment at your table, the biggest problem with believable, low-grade evil is that at least one person at your table will see enough of themselves in it that they'll refuse to accept it as evil.

[Slipperychicken]

The main problem with this is that you will eventually hit the tipping point between 'unpleasant but we put up with him because he's a useful party member' and 'the Good members of the party gank you for the betterment of the world', and you might not know *where* that tipping point is until you actually hit it... and unless you cross that tipping point, your DM might not agree that you are in fact Evil. (Not that his opinion should *matter*- if you say your character's alignment is some variety of Evil and being Evil is allowed in the game, then he's Evil unless your actions *blatantly* and consistently contradict that.)

Way I see it, that's a hazard of being playing Evil at all, which I assume the OP has plans to deal with. Things like adequately hiding his Evilness, or throwing up some flimsy PC justification like "goblins burned down my village" or "my character is dark and edgy and doesn't play by the rules".

[Wookie-ranger]

Act like a PC. Be an opportunist. Have a goal, and stop caring if your means are good or bad. Profit is a good one for our purposes. But don't do evil because it's evil. Do it because you're selfish and hateful when it benefits you.
.
.
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I like the way you are thinking. My Dread Necromancer would like to have a word with you. :smallbiggrin::smallamused: (<-- evil grin)

[eggs]

Loan the DM your copy of Watchmen.

[Water_Bear]

The problem is that realistic "evil" is either going to be so subtle that it doesn't ping your DM's radar or so heinous that the other Players will give you weird looks. That line is a bit unclear as well; torture, coercing people into sex with magic/blackmail (still rape, but not what most people think of), ruthlessness in combat, genocide and slavery are all things which tend to be hated in villains and ignored or praised in heroes in a lot of fiction. If you want a 3D Evil character who is clearly Evil, you need to figure out what sorts of things they notice and how often a character can get away with them before the hammer comes down.

Luckily, it sounds like you're looking for Obvious Evil, which is much less difficult though you lose out on some of the nuance of the character. Just think about it like this was KotOR; how do I get more Dark Side points without that awesome Twi'lek girl running away? Mock your enemies and allies, break promises to get more money/power, wear black and/or red with a lot of spikes, use "Dark" magic and talk in a voice like you seriously need a drink of water.

[Traab]

It also depends on what type of evil you are, lawful, neutral, or chaotic. A chaotic evil, (often known as chaotic stupid) will do whatever the hell random cruelty pops into his head, think Richard from the LFG webcomic. At the very start, the main character learns he is evil and tries to shoot him. What does richard do? As a powerful warlock he has plenty of options. His choice is to grab a random peasant and use him to intercept the arrows. . . Yeah. I may be paraphrasing, but at one point they enter a city and the guards stop richard saying,

"Halt, you are under arrest for burning down our orphanage!"

"Look, its like I told the magistrate before I killed him, that orphanage attacked me first!"

The secret is learning how to do evil things without getting killed for them. At least until you are richard levels of powerful and dont have to give a rats ass anymore. Or as he put it when those guards threatened to bring him in, "We were told to bring you in on sight."

"I was told where your mate and offspring reside."

"Welcome to town, enjoy your stay."

[Urpriest]

If it's a one-shot, put evil deeds in your backstory.

[Ravens_cry]

Argue for rational, but morally reprihensible actions, and while everyone is arguing, do them. If notices, say "it had to be done" or some equivlant. Punish the guilty harshly, perhaps exhessively rather than for opting for more merciful approaches.

[Rubik]

Argue for rational, but morally reprihensible actions, and while everyone is arguing, do them. If notices, say "it had to be done" or some equivlant. Punish the guilty harshly, perhaps exhessively rather than for opting for more merciful approaches.Go for high mental stats and then make all of your worst actions extremely logical, with good rationale behind them. Point out how horrible the alternatives would be, for as many reasons as you can dream up. Do your best to pull other party members and Good NPCs into your schemes, especially when they benefit you greatly.

Corruption, for fun and profit!

[Seharvepernfan]

When you kill a wolf pack, stack the bodies onto your cart and sell the hides later.

Hmm, the dovahkin is pure evil. I never knew.

[animewatcha]

If you're playing one-shot characters, why do you need to convince the DM that you're evil? Write "Evil" on your character sheet, take whatever feats, PrCs, or ACFs you want during character creation, and enjoy.


Because said DM won't let me take the evil alignment unless I can prove it. I said this in the opening post. At some point in the future, I might wanna try out say black blood cultist and take the dark moon sub level. These things generally require the evil alignment as a pre-req. The DM needing to be proven to so that I don't get a 'no.' Same thing with Exalted. I have to prove to be 'exceptionally good beyond good alignment' to be able to take exalted feats.

[Andezzar]

Because said DM won't let me take the evil alignment unless I can prove it. I said this in the opening post. At some point in the future, I might wanna try out say black blood cultist and take the dark moon sub level. These things generally require the evil alignment as a pre-req. The DM needing to be proven to so that I don't get a 'no.' Same thing with Exalted. I have to prove to be 'exceptionally good beyond good alignment' to be able to take exalted feats.You may want to tell your GM that while to be awarded exalted/vile feats you need to be exceptionally good/evil beyond the norm for those alignments, to be allowed to take feats/class levels which require an evil alignment have no such requirement. Dark Moon Disciple Substitution levels technically don't even require an evil alignment. Whether LN or LG monks can join and remain in the order of the dark moon is up to the DM.

[PlusSixPelican]

Most PCs act evil, anyways. Murderhoboness. Just insist on pragmatism endlessly, you'll be Lawful Evil soon enough.

[Andreaz]

Evil just means you don't care. So don't care.
You can even be a hero! You should, in fact!

[TheifofZ]

To be evil without getting killed by the party isn't hard.
The trick is to be cruel without being over-the-top.
Be mean, petty and cruel. Take cheap shots, don't be afraid to back stab, and be an opportunist. Be greedy and selfish.
Killing random by-passers is always a no-no unless you're running stupid evil, and that's... stupid, but stealing from them isn't.
And always remember: the other player characters are only NPCs from your point of view. Don't be afraid to treat them like it.
Not that I've deliberately killed off a party member for slapping me in-game, or "accidentally" hit the sorcerer with the edge of a fireball for taking the fancy new magic item I wanted, or anything.:smallconfused: Nope. There is no way I have any experience with playing evil and killing off party members. None at all.

[Rubik]

Assuming there's no exalted character or paladin in the group, the best way to get along with a party as an evil character is to ensure that you're loyal to the group. After all, you have bodyguards who guard your body. Who else is going to willingly do that, and for free? No hired guards would be that efficient, effective, and useful. Why ruin a good thing?

Just make sure to appear to make sacrifices for the group on occasion, especially when doing so actually benefits you -- just don't let them know that.

[Andreaz]

Assuming there's no exalted character or paladin in the group, the best way to get along with a party as an evil character is to ensure that you're loyal to the group. After all, you have bodyguards who guard your body. Who else is going to willingly do that, and for free? No hired guards would be that efficient, effective, and useful. Why ruin a good thing?

Just make sure to appear to make sacrifices for the group on occasion, especially when doing so actually benefits you -- just don't let them know that.
Alternatively, you can actually be friends. Nothing in evil says you can't love or like people.

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Seriously, guys, Evil is not that big of a deal most of the time. Roughly a third of humanity is evil if you go by the racial descriptions, and you don't see civilization wrecking itself at every opportunity. It's just a hard world full of hardened people, who make friends and feuds, just want to run their business or work their fields, afraid of strangers and eager to use whatever opportunity comes across.

[Rubik]

Alternatively, you can actually be friends. Nothing in evil says you can't love or like people.

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Seriously, guys, Evil is not that big of a deal most of the time. Roughly a third of humanity is evil if you go by the racial descriptions, and you don't see civilization wrecking itself at every opportunity. It's just a hard world full of hardened people, who make friends and feuds, just want to run their business or work their fields, afraid of strangers and eager to use whatever opportunity comes across.While true, this particular DM is being dumb about it. The OP has to be MUAHAHAHAHA EVIL with a capital E-V-I-L, so not kicking puppies for the hell of it is out of the question.

[Croix]

To be evil without getting killed by the party isn't hard.
The trick is to be cruel without being over-the-top.
Be mean, petty and cruel. Take cheap shots, don't be afraid to back stab, and be an opportunist. Be greedy and selfish.
Killing random by-passers is always a no-no unless you're running stupid evil, and that's... stupid, but stealing from them isn't.
And always remember: the other player characters are only NPCs from your point of view. Don't be afraid to treat them like it.
Not that I've deliberately killed off a party member for slapping me in-game, or "accidentally" hit the sorcerer with the edge of a fireball for taking the fancy new magic item I wanted, or anything.:smallconfused: Nope. There is no way I have any experience with playing evil and killing off party members. None at all.
Hmm... something tells me to believe this to be true. [/sarcasm]

Honestly... if the DM wants you to be evil without the ability to make an evil character without first proving it... he's made a logical paradox which cannot be overcome by any stretch of the imagination without making a backstory to the character... Generally putting rape, murder, slavery, etc into a back story (where you're the one doing it) is the easiest way to prove it. While playing personally (and I have done them), I would:

Rape through magical means. (Dominate/Charm Person) Then once done, slit their throat and make it look like suicide, mostly to avoid any negatives from the party. If you don't rightly care, have her wake up next to you and have the whole 'you raped me' thing where you disintegrate her in front of the hotel clerk, and then for the hell of it use rope trick on him to bind him and then gag him then sell him off to servitude and when the party complains use a bluff check to tell them it was for the betterment of the world.

Murder people that annoy you when no one is looking at you or the person I intend to kill, then stuff their corpse in a bag of holding to reanimate later as a meat shield/trap 'finder' (lol)/sadistic prank. By that I mean having another PC wake up with it laying next to them cuddled up to them. The lolz that ensue are endless.

Slavery... expect Bluff to have some ranks in it so you can keep the party's characters ever confused on what good/evil is, all the while the player's (and possibly DM) complain about the heinous evil you're committing.

Spare no expense to show just how cruel you are. By that I mean, take every moment to enjoy the slow death of an enemy after they get to -1 and watch them die while using Bluff/Intimidate/whatever to further insult, terrorize, or simply humiliate them as they die. ESPECIALLY if they started with something on divine quest, noble deeds, or other such tomfoolery. Heck, cut off their head with a dagger or something and urinate down their throat if you want to be excessive.

If a PC annoys, plot against them. This could be as simple as adding a couple castings of Explosive Runes/Serpia Sigil on their favorite book, 'accidentally' using a Wall of Stone and trapping them with a few hostile enemies you know they can't handle easily (or at all), handing them ability poison in a flask when they ask for a potion and Bluff them into thinking the different color and texture is because it's a new flavor to kill them (or annoy them). Or even more complex, getting yourself caught by the villian and Diplomacy check your way on their good side and hand them all knowledge required to trap them and have them sold off to slavery. You don't even need to be excessive at times and simply elongating a quest and making it more dangerous for them while you play both sides, or even better... Charm/Dominate the opposition and literally play both sides.

Theft... theft is always nice. Go ahead and when the party is done for a while, knock the lock off a shop in the middle of the night, disintegrate the guard dog (or even fireball the guard dog(s)), take what you want all stuffed in you Handy Haversack you just looted, and then leave to return in the morning to sell what you don't want or wait til you're in the next town as you break both WBL and your DM's few tenuous threads of sanity (s)he has left with you.

This of course was a Neutral Evil Wizard that I played with the Able Learner feat to achieve such versatility. And I exaggerated the lack of care for chaos or order and did what I wanted as I wanted unless someone looked like they could stand on equal ground to stop me, which, since the only caster was me and no one invested in Sense Motive as it was Cross-Class for all of them and apparently no one knew about Able Leaner, was very slim. The DM once threw Paladins and clerics and such at me and I Bluff checked the party into believing they were shape-shifted demons and helped me kill them, after which I made it a point to reanimate them, disguise them, and then sell them as Slaves only to release them from undead servitude to kill whoever bought it.

[Rubik]

If you do as Croix suggests, make sure you let all the players and the DM know, repeatedly and frequently, that it's the DM's fault -- that you could've been subtle evil that benefits the party, but he said you have to be stupid and insane evil, instead.

[Croix]

If you do as Croix suggests, make sure you let all the players and the DM know, repeatedly and frequently, that it's the DM's fault -- that you could've been subtle evil that benefits the party, but he said you have to be stupid and insane evil, instead.
Sure, apologize OoC, but IC their characters wouldn't have much to go on to believing you're evil. To them, with Bluff, you could warp reality to where you're doing Pelor's holy work as far as they'll know. xD I on the other hand enjoyed my evil both IC and OoC. I was rather hated, but I was trolling.

[demigodus]

Sure, apologize OoC, but IC their characters wouldn't have much to go on to believing you're evil. To them, with Bluff, you could warp reality to where you're doing Pelor's holy work as far as they'll know. xD I on the other hand enjoyed my evil both IC and OoC. I was rather hated, but I was trolling.

Or you could just do Pelor's holy work of burning hatred. That would make you Evil with a capital E...

Honestly though, the best bet is to not do anything overly evil in front of the PCs. I would suggest picking a class that has dominate person as a spell, and optimizing the DC (or other ways to ensure people fail their saves). And don't kill the targets after they wake up from being raped. That is when you dominate them, and have them do some task that gets them killed, AND is for the good of the party. Or sell them into slavery, not for money, but for connections. So that eventually, wherever you go, in every town you will have a contact that knows exactly what is going on.

Something fun would be finding a Paladin, then following them while hidden. Wait until they are asleep, then dominate them. You are willing if you are sleeping, and all that. Possibly do this to a group of 3~4 paladins. Make them commit atrocious crimes. They will immediately proceed to fall, through no fault of their own. At this point, tie them up/immobilize them somewhere private, and undo the domination on them. Now it is negotiations time. Offer to let go whichever of them swears fealty to the forces of darkness first, followed by torturing his former comrades to death. Just for good measure, have a helm of change alignment on hand, that you will use on the others first. So that, after dedicating their lives to the forces of good, and having never committed a crime before, they are first abandoned by their god, and then sentenced to being tortured for all eternity in hell. Through no fault of their own. If you can pull it off, Planar Bind in some low level devil that you make a deal with. In exchange with you presenting him with the 4 paladins, of whom you will help him make one fall (while the rest are sent to hell as well), he will give you something that you want. Maybe something else on the side that you can share with the party too.

PCs are less likely to ask you what the hell you were up to, when you hand out gold to them upon returning.

If some commoner looks at you the wrong way, do not kill them. Find their family. When they get home, have their children (either zombies or brainwashed) hold them down, and make them watch as you have fun with their wife. Works best if the wife is also brainwashed. Then have the wife kill them. Finally, burn the entire place down as you leave. If you used animate dead, you might want to keep the corpses as meat shields. Same for anyone that was dominated. PCs also don't tend to complain about meat shields when those meat shields soak up hits from heavy hitters.

Do all this with a straight face. And then ask your DM if this is evil enough yet, or if your character's alignment is still neutral.

Alternatively there is always the option of accidentally being evil... Like the time when in a campaign our party was epically failing our charisma checks for finding a bartender and asking for rooms (2nd ed, 4 of us had cha of 15~18... somehow we all failed), so I just got annoyed and brainwashed her into loving me. That got us rooms for free.

[Wookie-ranger]

Brilliant ideas so far!

Just wanted to add my 2c:
If your DM has a hard time understanding what evil is, and pulls a "show ma a rule that this is evil" kind of thing, just show him the 'Book of Vial Darkness'.
specifically pages 5-17. Those go into nice detail what acts are evil.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Brilliant ideas so far!

Just wanted to add my 2c:
If your DM has a hard time understanding what evil is, and pulls a "show ma a rule that this is evil" kind of thing, just show him the 'Book of Vial Darkness'.
specifically pages 5-17. Those go into nice detail what acts are evil.

Be warned that he may have already seen those passages and decided to ignore them, deeming them "stupid."

It's a common enough practice to do just that, though I, personally, think they're better thought out than they're generally given credit for.

[Arbane]

There are 'easy ways' to be 'officially' evil like summoning pazuzu enough times. What I am wondering is how can one prove to a DM that are you capable of actually being evil ( not the bat**** insane and kill everyone type ).


First, EAT THIS KITTEN!

http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/fridgemagnet/190449/10295/10295_600.jpg

:smallwink:

[Traab]

First, EAT THIS KITTEN!

http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/fridgemagnet/190449/10295/10295_600.jpg

:smallwink:

OH GOD! Its EYES are burning into my SOUL! I must eat them first! Wild berry kittens are my favorite btw. nom nom

[Slipperychicken]

Brilliant ideas so far!

Just wanted to add my 2c:
If your DM has a hard time understanding what evil is, and pulls a "show ma a rule that this is evil" kind of thing, just show him the 'Book of Vial Darkness'.
specifically pages 5-17. Those go into nice detail what acts are evil.

I commit murder for money and allow Fiends to exist. That makes me super evil, right?

[Pandiano]

Or you could just do Pelor's holy work of burning hatred. That would make you Evil with a capital E...

Honestly though, the best bet is to not do anything overly evil in front of the PCs. I would suggest picking a class that has dominate person as a spell, and optimizing the DC (or other ways to ensure people fail their saves). And don't kill the targets after they wake up from being raped. That is when you dominate them, and have them do some task that gets them killed, AND is for the good of the party. Or sell them into slavery, not for money, but for connections. So that eventually, wherever you go, in every town you will have a contact that knows exactly what is going on.

Something fun would be finding a Paladin, then following them while hidden. Wait until they are asleep, then dominate them. You are willing if you are sleeping, and all that. Possibly do this to a group of 3~4 paladins. Make them commit atrocious crimes. They will immediately proceed to fall, through no fault of their own. At this point, tie them up/immobilize them somewhere private, and undo the domination on them. Now it is negotiations time. Offer to let go whichever of them swears fealty to the forces of darkness first, followed by torturing his former comrades to death. Just for good measure, have a helm of change alignment on hand, that you will use on the others first. So that, after dedicating their lives to the forces of good, and having never committed a crime before, they are first abandoned by their god, and then sentenced to being tortured for all eternity in hell. Through no fault of their own. If you can pull it off, Planar Bind in some low level devil that you make a deal with. In exchange with you presenting him with the 4 paladins, of whom you will help him make one fall (while the rest are sent to hell as well), he will give you something that you want. Maybe something else on the side that you can share with the party too.

PCs are less likely to ask you what the hell you were up to, when you hand out gold to them upon returning.

If some commoner looks at you the wrong way, do not kill them. Find their family. When they get home, have their children (either zombies or brainwashed) hold them down, and make them watch as you have fun with their wife. Works best if the wife is also brainwashed. Then have the wife kill them. Finally, burn the entire place down as you leave. If you used animate dead, you might want to keep the corpses as meat shields. Same for anyone that was dominated. PCs also don't tend to complain about meat shields when those meat shields soak up hits from heavy hitters.

Do all this with a straight face. And then ask your DM if this is evil enough yet, or if your character's alignment is still neutral.

Alternatively there is always the option of accidentally being evil... Like the time when in a campaign our party was epically failing our charisma checks for finding a bartender and asking for rooms (2nd ed, 4 of us had cha of 15~18... somehow we all failed), so I just got annoyed and brainwashed her into loving me. That got us rooms for free.

Well, I don't think your paladin scheme would work.
1.) As a DM I would not let a Paladin fall because of a magical domination. He as not taken any decision, which would be necessary to turn evil.
2.) You'll have to try it with Level 1 or 2 Paladins. Lv 3+ they ar immune to he fear of death. As given the choice of eternal damnation and betraying all thei stand for or being lawful...sorry stubborn and die for a place in heaven, a Paladin failing that test is nothing worth to begin with. If you'd try to convince one I'd set the DC somewhere in the upper hundreds due to circumstance boni.
Your idea is nice though. If you decieve them into fighting innocents willingly. Get them into the darkness slowly with more and more questionable decisions. Play Lawful against Good.

You other suggestions are nice :-)

[Slipperychicken]

Well, I don't think your paladin scheme would work.
1.) As a DM I would not let a Paladin fall because of a magical domination. He as not taken any decision, which would be necessary to turn evil.
2.) You'll have to try it with Level 1 or 2 Paladins. Lv 3+ they ar immune to he fear of death. As given the choice of eternal damnation and betraying all thei stand for or being lawful...sorry stubborn and die for a place in heaven, a Paladin failing that test is nothing worth to begin with. If you'd try to convince one I'd set the DC somewhere in the upper hundreds due to circumstance boni.
Your idea is nice though. If you decieve them into fighting innocents willingly. Get them into the darkness slowly with more and more questionable decisions. Play Lawful against Good.

You other suggestions are nice :-)

1) Paladins do not fall while under Domination. People really love forgetting that one...

2) Paladins, being the paragons of ++Lawful Good++, are going somewhere nice when they die anyway. They have nothing to fear. Not to mention they want to be closer to their God anyway, and their eternal reward lies in death.

3) How stupid is your god to banish you for having a Helm of Opposite Alignment slapped on your head? That's like court-marshaling someone as a Communist spy because someone splattered red paint on his uniform.

[hamishspence]

1) Paladins do not fall while under Domination. People really love forgetting that one...

While the paladin class itself uses the words "willingly" and "wilfully" with respect to evil acts causing them to fall, the Atonement spell itself implies that an act committed under magical compulsion can still qualify as evil- and still qualify as something that can lose a character class features:


This spell removes the burden of evil acts or misdeeds from the subject. The creature seeking atonement must be truly repentant and desirous of setting right its misdeeds. If the atoning creature committed the evil act unwittingly or under some form of compulsion, atonement operates normally at no cost to you.
...
Restore Class
A paladin who has lost her class features due to committing an evil act may have her paladinhood restored to her by this spell.

In 3.0 and previous editions, it was explicit that not only could a paladin Fall for "committing evil acts under magical compulsion"- but that only such evil acts, or "unwitting" ones- could be atoned for in such a way that a paladin could get their powers back.

If the paladin committed the evil act without either of those mitigating factors, their powers were lost forever.

3.5 dropped this- but it's hard to tell if they dropped the concept of falling for evil acts that were not "willing" or "willful".

[Person_Man]

Try playing Lawful Evil.

Be completely honest, polite, a family man, loyal to your friends, and respectful (without being lawyer-ly) of local laws and customs. A well played Lawful character.

Within that context, be selfish and self serving. Maximize the profit/gain for your group. Place little to no value on the lives of others, especially your enemies and "lesser" groups or creatures (animals, plants, races you don't like...). Ignore "universal" rights or freedoms or notions of what "should" occur, regardless of how horrific they may be. A purely Evil character.

And perhaps most importantly, you should have the general viewpoint that what you do is Good. Evil people rarely see themselves as Evil. They see themselves as doing things for the "greater Good" or higher purpose.

As a side note, I would say that most players end up roleplaying Lawful Evil, regardless of what's written on their character sheet or how they see their character. When was the last time a player expressed concern for the lives, families, or alternate viewpoints for bandits, orcs, monsters, etc, or their long term impacts of their decisions? This is especially true in roleplaying video games, where you spend virtually all of your time murdering, breaking and entering, stealing everything that's not nailed down, etc, and only receive a karmic/alignment penalty if it fits the games narrow definition of being illegal/dark side.

[Slipperychicken]

While the paladin class itself uses the words "willingly" and "wilfully" with respect to evil acts causing them to fall, the Atonement spell itself implies that an act committed under magical compulsion can still qualify as evil- and still qualify as something that can lose a character class features:


Even if the act is Evil, the Paladin doesn't fall for it because he didn't do it willingly. Magically-compelled acts might penalize other characters, but not the Paladin.



As a side note, I would say that most players end up roleplaying Lawful Evil, regardless of what's written on their character sheet or how they see their character. When was the last time a player expressed concern for the lives, families, or alternate viewpoints for bandits, orcs, monsters, etc, or their long term impacts of their decisions? This is especially true in roleplaying video games, where you spend virtually all of your time murdering, breaking and entering, stealing everything that's not nailed down, etc, and only receive a karmic/alignment penalty if it fits the games narrow definition of being illegal/dark side.

So much truth. I might even sig this....

[demigodus]

1) Paladins do not fall while under Domination. People really love forgetting that one...

eh, wasn't aware they changed it from 2e. Fine, assault them with a mob of dominated civilians, on the border of death. If they kill anyone, they are killing an innocent.


2) Paladins, being the paragons of ++Lawful Good++, are going somewhere nice when they die anyway. They have nothing to fear. Not to mention they want to be closer to their God anyway, and their eternal reward lies in death.

3) How stupid is your god to banish you for having a Helm of Opposite Alignment slapped on your head? That's like court-marshaling someone as a Communist spy because someone splattered red paint on his uniform.

Helm of Opposing alignment actually changes your alignment and attitudes. Once you fail that will save, your paragon of ++Lawful Good++ becomes a paragon of ++Chaotic Evil++. Once that alignment change happens, they no longer have the lawful good factor to get into heaven.

Your paint splattering metaphor fails at the point that paint does not have brain washing capabilities. The helm does.

[Andezzar]

Even if the act is Evil, the Paladin doesn't fall for it because he didn't do it willingly. Magically-compelled acts might penalize other characters, but not the Paladin.AFAIK evil acts whether committed willingly or not, sooner or later change the perpetrator's alignment. That has the same result for the paladin as willingly committing evil acts:
A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who grossly violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and abilities (including the service of the paladin’s mount, but not weapon, armor, and shield proficiencies). She may not progress any farther in levels as a paladin. She regains her abilities and advancement potential if she atones for her violations (see the atonement spell description), as appropriate.This may be less permanent than a helmet of opposite alignment, but in the short run it is functionally the same.

[Slipperychicken]

Helm of Opposing alignment actually changes your alignment and attitudes. Once you fail that will save, your paragon of ++Lawful Good++ becomes a paragon of ++Chaotic Evil++. Once that alignment change happens, they no longer have the lawful good factor to get into heaven.


I would imagine that either a) the Helm ceases to affect the Paladin once he's dead (just like the rest of his equipment) so he goes to heaven, or b) his god would intervene for his chosen champion and let him in anyway, probably slapping on a Remove Curse if the Helm somehow continued to affect him. If nothing else (like being the heavenly embodiment of Goodness), because letting your most devoted champions go to Hell over of a cheap magic hat is bad PR.

The Helm does not change the Paladin's record of Do-Goodery, it's a magical compulsion to act contrary to the Paladin's nature.

[Wookie-ranger]

everyone is focusing on the paladin...
"you dominate the paladin and make him kill some orphans..."
well, yeah, that is evil, but it seams more that you ar the evil one, and not the paladin.
This is still what you want though so it works for your purposes. To be evil you need to evil things, having paladins kill orphans would probably count, if they fall or not is kind of irrelevant. It would also create a whole lot of problems for the paladin in any case, such as with the law, or at least his reputation.

:smallfurious:"you killed the orphans!!! you monster!!!":smallfurious:
:smalleek:"oh, eehh well.... sorry, i ummm, was under a compulsion effect:smallredface:! yeah, that was it; a compulsion effect!":smallcool::smallbiggrin:
:smallsmile:"oh, ok, never mind then... say, you up for dinner?":smallsmile:

You see what i mean. Even if they do not fall, they will still be mistrusted by many.

but what about the other way around.
Don't focus on the Paladin, focus on the orphans.
1. give them an item (or cast a spell) that only makes it looks like it is CE.
2. cast some kind of illusion over them or use a disguise check to make them looks like goblins. (tell them it is Halloween party or something)
3. organize a big "party" including a bonfire, that just so happens to look like a house/barn
4. tell the kids that during the party some paladins will show up, and that they should go hug them very very much.
5. tell the nearest Paladins of McJustice that some monsters are raiding your farm and that they killed your entire family. They might even still be there, but be warned, some of them can cast magic and may use disguises or touch spells.
6. Paladins arive, see what is going on, may even cast some detect evil
7. "lets get this party started ...."
8. after they realize what they have done, then you can subdue them (or just kill them). They have no chance to cast atonement so they will be doomed, go to hell, become a evil, etc.

[animewatcha]

Going by SRD, helm of opposite alignment loses it magic after single use. How much would it be for custom version for unlimited use or similar effect ? Basically, to say put on children's heads while they sleep.

[ShadowFireLance]

*Snip*

...:smalleek:...
Wow.
Alright, Now I need to do this.