How Cool is the Spiked Chain?

[PlusSixPelican]

I've always thought the Spiked Chain was really cool-looking, but I don't really, err, know what I could do with it in NPC design. It's spikey and menacing, which is ominous, and it prevents shield use, which lowers the AC of the enemy combatant (due to them being non-shieldy), which is kinda nice from a player perspective. Lowers the reliance on the RNG. Anyways, thoughts, input, etc? Anything's welcome.

[Amechra]

I'm kinda wondering why you're posting this in the Homebrew forum when it should be on the D&D 3e/3.5e/d20 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=59) board. This board is pretty much just for entirely new content.

But the Spiked Chain is really nice for tripping builds; shields are bad for AC anyway, and the Spiked Chain lets you threaten the entire 10' area around you, which is great if you have some levels in Knight (what say you to difficult terrain?)

[bobthe6th]

...and start stack reach enhancements like size.

If you want an idea of what a chain can do, look for lock down builds.

[Zahhak]

There are plenty of things you can do with a spiked chain and a forgiving DM. You could realistically say that it is not just a reach weapon that can strike an adjacent target, but also possibly a double weapon if held in the middle of the chain. Take quick draw and you can transition quickly. It's very useful for disarm and trip attempts, and a forgiving DM could be swayed into saying that it also gives bonuses to grapple checks since you can use it to 'tie' up your opponent. There's a prestige class called something like 'chain master' that has a lot of unique abilities built off using a spike chain (like climbing walls). I think it requires you to be evil, so my DM let me take some of the class abilities as feats.

[genericwit]

There are plenty of things you can do with a spiked chain and a forgiving DM. You could realistically say that it is not just a reach weapon that can strike an adjacent target, but also possibly a double weapon if held in the middle of the chain. Take quick draw and you can transition quickly. It's very useful for disarm and trip attempts, and a forgiving DM could be swayed into saying that it also gives bonuses to grapple checks since you can use it to 'tie' up your opponent. There's a prestige class called something like 'chain master' that has a lot of unique abilities built off using a spike chain (like climbing walls). I think it requires you to be evil, so my DM let me take some of the class abilities as feats.

The Master of Chains was 3e, and hasn't been replicated in 3.5. It could conceivably be retooled, though, it's pretty awesome.

[Amphetryon]

The Master of Chains was 3e, and hasn't been replicated in 3.5. It could conceivably be retooled, though, it's pretty awesome.

IIRC, the "Exotic Weapon Master" PrC folded Master of Chains and several other weapon-specific 3.0 options into that one 3.5 PrC, by canon.

[Eldariel]

IIRC, the "Exotic Weapon Master" PrC folded Master of Chains and several other weapon-specific 3.0 options into that one 3.5 PrC, by canon.

Aye, though they have nothing to do with each other. One case of Riot being lazy as **** and not retooling like half the warrior PRCs from 3.0 (basically none of the good ones aside from Bear Warrior and Frenzied Berserker). I suggest you ignore the "official" word here especially since the edition has been dead to WotC for 5 years now.

But yeah, Spiked Chain is the most versatile weapon in the game and thus the favored weapon of most builds. It hits adjacent and reach and is two-handed, making it perfect for attack of opportunity-builds. Since it's Tripping, especially Trip builds (which are specialized attack of opportunity builds) absolutely adore it. It's also two-handed so it can be used efficiently with Power Attack which combines perfectly with the AC penalty from being prone pointing further towards the Trip setup.

The basic core of this build is:
Combat Expertise > Improved Trip
Combat Reflexes
Power Attack

When you open non-Core sources you can add AoO enhancements:
Mage Slayer [Complete Arcane]
Martial Study: Thicket of Blades [Tome of Battle] (subsumes Hold the Line [Complete Warrior])
Defensive Sweep [Player's Handbook II]
Stand Still [SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#standStill)/Expanded Psionics Handbook]
Deft Opportunist [Complete Adventurer]

Charging/Power Attacking enhancements:
Shock Trooper [Complete Warrior]
Leap Attack [Complete Adventurer]
Battle Jump [Unapproachable East]
(also various non-feat things; Pounce from e.g. the Barbarian class with the "Spirit Lion Totem"-variant [Complete Champion] & Valorous Weapon Property [Unapproachable East])

And you end up with a fairly brutal melee build all things considered with a large area of control (for bonus points, the race should be naturally Large (Half-Ogre, Goliath with Mountain Rage, Minotaur, etc.) or the character should be under Enlarge Person or able to cast it himself) and immense alpha strike damage and very good stand-up damage.


And taking basically any action in his threatened area gets you hit to the face and tripped if you're standing (unless you're too large to trip in which case Stand Still is invoked instead to just freeze you). Things invoking AoOs include defensively casting spells [Mage Slayer], tumbling [Thicket of Blades], 5' steps [Thicket of Blades] & withdraw [Thicket of Blades]. Since Spiked Chain threatens all squares adjacent and within reach, the larger the creature (and thus the longer the reach), the better; he can hit everything in that area anyways.

[toapat]

To basically explain:

Spiked Chain:
Pros: Has Reach
Has Tripping
Can also hit near
Is Finessable
Is Disarming
Is not a light weapon
Has a decent die roll for damage
is normally a metal weapon

Cons:
Abominable critical
Needs EWP, but you can get EWP for a Ribbon Spiked chain and just negate the critical problem simultaineously

[herrhauptmann]

To basically explain:
Is 1.5 Handed


??
Spiked chain is a 2 handed weapon. It's not like the longsword that can be held in 1 hand or 2.
Making into a doubleweapon ala Master of Chains is a good idea, but it's a houserule if your character isn't a MoC.

[toapat]

??
Spiked chain is a 2 handed weapon. It's not like the longsword that can be held in 1 hand or 2.
Making into a doubleweapon ala Master of Chains is a good idea, but it's a houserule if your character isn't a MoC.

I kept reading it wrong then, although with the right items you can weild 2 at a time.

[PlusSixPelican]

I was thinking of building a rather badass Spiked Chain Ogre (or other big thing) for my PCs to deal with. It'll be entertaining, at least. Thoughts?

[LordErebus12]

Eberron Drow have the Drow Scorpion Chain racial weapon, and several feats that allow them to be treated as martial weapons, in addition to bonus damage when using action points and moving around before attacking.

1d6 + full str
critical 19-20x2

Drow Skirmisher, i believe it was called, the feat.

[PlusSixPelican]

Oh, well, drow are all well and nice, but like, something...ogrey or minotaury. Big. Unless I can use the drow feats on a non-drow.

[LordErebus12]

Oh, well, drow are all well and nice, but like, something...ogrey or minotaury. Big. Unless I can use the drow feats on a non-drow.

minotaur?

Minotaur Greathorn Greathammer. MM4 page 101

1d10 small; 1d12 medium; 3d6 large
Critical 19-20x4
bludgeoning
15 lbs. if small; 30 lbs. if medium; 60 lbs. if large

buy a +2 version of the Minotaur Greathorn Greathammer, then take the monkey grip feat. you can now use this:

Huge Minotaur Greathorn Greathammer
4d6 bludgeoning / 19-20x4

add in Impact weapon quality.

critical now moves to 17-20x4

[PlusSixPelican]

Yay for hammers. I'm just thinking a Large creature, spiked chain, some supporting feats, end result is scary chain giant that keeps PCs on their toes.

[Rubik]

I was thinking of building a rather badass Spiked Chain Ogre (or other big thing) for my PCs to deal with. It'll be entertaining, at least. Thoughts?What about an orc variant psychic warrior build? Water orcs are pretty nice. Use those powers and bonus feats to your advantage -- Expansion gives you Large size, which complements your racial strength bonuses rather nicely.

[herrhauptmann]

minotaur?

Minotaur Greathorn Greathammer. MM4 page 101

1d10 small; 1d12 medium; 3d6 large
Critical 19-20x4
bludgeoning
15 lbs. if small; 30 lbs. if medium; 60 lbs. if large

buy a +2 version of the Minotaur Greathorn Greathammer, then take the monkey grip feat. you can now use this:

Huge Minotaur Greathorn Greathammer
4d6 bludgeoning / 19-20x4

add in Impact weapon quality.

critical now moves to 17-20x4

Why do you specify a +2 Greathammer? Weapon crystals? I thought the greater crystals required a +3 weapon.
Anyway, monkey grip is crap. Get strongarm bracers from MiC. For the same effect with no penalty.
OR. Get a gold/platinum weapon from MoF. Since it was written during 3.0, the weapon sizing rules need an intelligent brain at the table to convert them to 3.5 weapon sizes.
Or take both. A large-sized minotaur, wielding a huge gold hammer, that deals damage as if gargantuan.
Now add in 8 levels of psy warrior for 2 size increases...

[Eldariel]

I was thinking of building a rather badass Spiked Chain Ogre (or other big thing) for my PCs to deal with. It'll be entertaining, at least. Thoughts?

Yeah, this can be amazing especially if it has enough Dex for Combat Reflexes and Int for Combat Expertise. Though of course, Ogres don't especially since in either of those so it's harder to get. But yeah, the principal idea of being a big creature whirling around with a Chain is both, efficient and awesome.

The Int-prerequisite can be circumvented with two levels in Wolf Totem Barbarian (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wolfTotemClassFeatures ) class. A particularly dexterous individual does qualify for Combat Reflexes (an Ogre with Elite Array putting the 15 to Dex) so you can get all the prerequisites for a Chain Tripper build.


Here would be CR 5 Barbarian Tripper for instance:
Ogre 4/Barbarian 2

24 Str (14 from Elite Array), 13 Dex (15 from Elite Array), 16 Con (12 from Elite Array), 6 Int (10 from Elite Array), 13 Wis (13 from Elite Array), 4 Cha (8 from Elite Array)

1. Power Attack
3. EWP: Spiked Chain (requires BAB +1)
6. Combat Reflexes
Wolf-Totem Barbarian 2: Improved Trip


Of course, it runs into the issue of having a horrendous Will-save (even with Fractional Saves & Rage on it's only +5) and Ref-save (+3 by Fractionals, +2 otherwise). Against melee types, it can be quite scary though though.

A Minotaur would be more formidable overall; a Minotaur Barbarian 2 would be CR 6 with the same feats and:
24 Strength (15 from EA + 8th HD bonus point), 14 Dex (14 from EA), 16 Con (12 from EA), 6 Int (10 from EA), 13 Wis (13 from EA), 6 Cha (8 from EA)


It would have all the advantages of the Ogre above but then it would also have +6 base Will-save (+8 Raging) and +7 Reflex (Fort is a bit worse than the Ogre's but it's still +8 & +10 Raging so that should be okay). It also has more HP thanks to extra hit dice (6d8 + 2d12 + 8*3 = 63; +16 from Rage).

You could also give it Pounce from Spirit Lion Totem so when it Gores people on the first charge, it can also full attack with the Chain (though the extra move speed of course wouldn't be amiss either, especially if you have it wear armor as it probably should). The Gore is probably sufficient, I guess, so just going with Fast Movement is probably for the best.

Oh, and adding 1 level of Crusader on level 9 would enable Thicket of Blades (through Martial Stance: Thicket of Blades) which would make him a really tough customer at CR 7, especially if he also got Mage Slayer. That's a 20' radius zone of "No you don't!"

[awa]

keep in mind minotaur great hammers arnt just any minotaurs only a specific type of minotaur knows how to make them

[PlusSixPelican]

If it helps, it's a Pathfinder game with a generous helping of 3.5e fitted stuff. So there's more feats to be had per level, basically.

Also! In a solid CR 9 encounter (they're L7 PCs, but still, they can handle this one would think) I could run a pair of these things. Whole different kind of chain gang.

[eggs]

If it helps, it's a Pathfinder game with a generous helping of 3.5e fitted stuff.
Does this mean you're using the PF version of the spiked chain, or 3.5?

Because PF gave it a sound nerfing.

[Venusaur]

Aye, though they have nothing to do with each other. One case of Riot being lazy as **** and not retooling like half the warrior PRCs from 3.0 (basically none of the good ones aside from Bear Warrior and Frenzied Berserker). I suggest you ignore the "official" word here especially since the edition has been dead to WotC for 5 years now.


Got LoL on the brain?

[Eldariel]

Got LoL on the brain?

I usually complain about Riot, Blizzard or Paizo, so yeah. Occasionally Wizards but mostly in MTG connotations. Also, yeah, obviously I meant WotC.


If it helps, it's a Pathfinder game with a generous helping of 3.5e fitted stuff. So there's more feats to be had per level, basically.

Also! In a solid CR 9 encounter (they're L7 PCs, but still, they can handle this one would think) I could run a pair of these things. Whole different kind of chain gang.

PF changes things a lot. The Chain is heavily nerfed (no reach) and Tripping is also heavily nerfed (need Greater Trip for it to be useful) so this'd be harder there.

Explain the specifics: Which version of Chain are you using and what sources exactly are open? We can certainly work with anything but the specifics determine what we need to prepare for specifically.

[PlusSixPelican]

The build would be for a pathfinder game, but I don't see the problem with using the old weapon stats. Pathfinder trip rules, though.

Sorry if that was confusing. >.<

[Eldariel]

Well, PF Trip rules have the problem that you need Greater Trip in addition to Improved Trip for it to work out. This is not a problem far as tripping itself is concerned, but the monsters suggested here have naturally no chance of qualifying for the feat; Improved Trip can be gained through the 3.5 Wolf Totem Barbarian but Greater Trip still requires Combat Expertise and 13 Int.

You could handwave that; with PF feats and extra levels, feats themselves won't be a problem. Minotaur basis still works; they're CR 4 by default so I believe you can add 5 levels for it to become CR 9? Crusader and Barbarian would still be fairly perfect, if Tome of Battle is kosher. You could also try to heavily pump its Intelligence; it has -4 so it needs 15 base and +2 from levels. That is infeasible without Fighter-levels to pick up the Trip-feats on time.

[PlusSixPelican]

Oh, ToB is kosher, one of the other NPCs I built was a Curst Warblade.

[Unusual Muse]

The spiked chain is so cool that it was ruled abusively so, and banned by my group. :smallsmile:

[Eldariel]

Oh, ToB is kosher, one of the other NPCs I built was a Curst Warblade.

And how do you feel about the Int requirements of Greater Trip? Far as I'm concerned, if you have Improved Trip you should be able to take Greater Trip but that's of course directly contrary to what the rules as written say.

[PlusSixPelican]

It's NPC construction, I'm a little less tight about their feat quallies.

[Rubik]

The spiked chain is so cool that it was ruled abusively so, and banned by my group. :smallsmile:It's one of the best exotic weapons out there, and is actually worth a feat. Thing is, though, it's actually not much better than a guisarm and a spiked gauntlet. A bit, but not much.

[Eldariel]

It's NPC construction, I'm a little less tight about their feat quallies.

Alright, that saves you some trouble then. CR 9 means 5 character levels on a Minotaur, so:
Minotaur 6/Barbarian 2/Crusader 3

24 Strength (15 from EA + 8th HD bonus point), 14 Dex (14 from EA), 16 Con (12 from EA), 6 Int (10 from EA), 13 Wis (13 from EA), 6 Cha (8 from EA)


Feats:
1. Power Attack
3. EWP: Spiked Chain
5. Combat Reflexes
7. Mage Slayer
Wolf Totem Barbarian. Improved Trip
9. Greater Trip
11. Extra Granted Maneuver

Crusader is otherwise open but you probably want to give him Leading the Charge and Thicket of Blades stances; Leading the Charge goes great with the initial Gore (can also combine with e.g. Battle Leader's Charge) and otherwise I'd mostly focus on Stone Dragon strikes (ones that grant DR are pretty useful here, and of course a Minotaur should probably have Charging Minotaur) with some White Raven and maybe one healing maneuver from Devoted Spirit. Maintain Thicket of Blades always after the initial charge.

Note, he needs a rank or two in Spellcraft to qualify for Mage Slayer though that should be no biggie since he has some decent skill points from Barbarian and Crusader.

[Telonius]

Hasn't been mentioned yet, so I'll throw it out - if Tome of Battle is in use, Spiked Chain is also a Shadow Hand weapon. Meaning, if you have the Shadow Blade feat, it will give you Dex to damage.

[monkey3]

Preemptive apologies for threadcrapping, but I've had bad experience with this weapon in the hands of a min-maxer. The problem is that he didn't have to min-max much!

This weapon has a 10' reach, so when enlarged, it has a 20'reach. That's 4 squares. Now take the "stand still" feat, and your AOO will make opponents not move. With this, you can autokill anything that has a reach less than you, and no ranged weapon. Ranged weapons just lets you AOO them.

On top of this, at one point he was making non-lethal attacks at 20' because that is allowed. How the heck do you make a non-lethal attach with a spiked chain?

[Eldariel]

Preemptive apologies for threadcrapping, but I've had bad experience with this weapon in the hands of a min-maxer. The problem is that he didn't have to min-max much!

This weapon has a 10' reach, so when enlarged, it has a 20'reach. That's 4 squares. Now take the "stand still" feat, and your AOO will make opponents not move. With this, you can autokill anything that has a reach less than you, and no ranged weapon. Ranged weapons just lets you AOO them.

This requires him to hit and then the hit creature to fail the Reflex-save. It's efficient but far from a guarantee. Also, it's only efficient against melee types; ranged types can shoot from outside the range (and he's likely to not have that amazing alpha damage on charges) and spellcasters can still cast. Also, without Thicket of Blades, Acrobatics/Tumble and 5' steps work very well against it.

Without Mage Slayer, spellcasting can be done even in the threatened area. And in every case, it's an attack of opportunity so everything from miss chances to cover to good AC to Mirror Images to defensive immediate actions against attacks works against it. Really, it's strong but not an autowin button unless you literally only ever face mindless melee brutes like bog-standard Orcs and Ogres.

[monkey3]

Without Mage Slayer, ...

Well of course he had mage slayer :)

[GnomeGninjas]

On top of this, at one point he was making non-lethal attacks at 20' because that is allowed. How the heck do you make a non-lethal attach with a spiked chain?

How the heck do you attack with a spiked chain? The weapon is ridiculous. I could kind of see someone spinning it around and hitting people but that wouldn't be piercing.

[Monodominant]

Someone mentioned something called Ribbon Spiked Chain and that it has better crit or something...

Does anyone know from which book that is?

[toapat]

Someone mentioned something called Ribbon Spiked Chain and that it has better crit or something...

Does anyone know from which book that is?

Ribbon weapons are from a web enhancement for the Kaorti resin (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031014a). All ribbon weapons have their base critical modifier increased to x4, regardless of what it was previously. You can take Ribbon chain proficiency without having regular chain proficiency, and the weapon is equivalent in damage to a falchion for damage.

if you are going for a raw damage build, Ribbon is the only thing better then Disciple of Dispater for average melee damage.

I dont know if it is a melee exclusive property, but if it isnt, it makes a Ribbon Great Crossbow the most powerful base weapon in the game.

[Unusual Muse]

How the heck do you attack with a spiked chain? The weapon is ridiculous. I could kind of see someone spinning it around and hitting people but that wouldn't be piercing.

It's true... there's definitely a precedent in Chinese martial arts for using the chain as a weapon, to good effect (just YouTube "chain whip" and you'll see!)... but the *spiked* part of it is ridiculous. There would be no way to safely wield a spiked chain. This is another reason why my group banned it. It's mechanically devastating and conceptually stupid.

[Rubik]

It's true... there's definitely a precedent in Chinese martial arts for using the chain as a weapon, to good effect (just YouTube "chain whip" and you'll see!)... but the *spiked* part of it is ridiculous. There would be no way to safely wield a spiked chain. This is another reason why my group banned it. It's mechanically devastating and conceptually stupid.Well, first of all, refluff it slightly and it's conceptually awesome. (www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEavVfeO26Q) Otherwise, I guess martial characters just can't have nice things.

[Unusual Muse]

Well, first of all, refluff it slightly and it's conceptually awesome. (www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEavVfeO26Q) Otherwise, I guess martial characters just can't have nice things.

That looks more like a whip to me... which is nowhere near as abusive as a spiked chain. :smallsmile:

[Rubik]

That looks more like a whip to me... which is nowhere near as abusive as a spiked chain. :smallsmile:It's basically a kusari-gama, which is a 1 handed spiked chain from the DMG. Give it a longer handle and it's functionally a spiked chain.

[toapat]

It's true... there's definitely a precedent in Chinese martial arts for using the chain as a weapon, to good effect (just YouTube "chain whip" and you'll see!)... but the *spiked* part of it is ridiculous. There would be no way to safely wield a spiked chain. This is another reason why my group banned it. It's mechanically devastating and conceptually stupid.

I dont really think of the spiked chain as being functional as it is in the DMG, i think of it more as like this barbed chain (https://www.animotions.com/store/images/P/chain_spiked_px.jpg) with two thirds of its length as non spikey similar chain.

Imo, either way, they should have a Bladed chain variant.

[Deophaun]

Imo, either way, they should have a Bladed chain variant.That would be the drow scorpion chain in Races of Eberron.

[PlusSixPelican]

I always assumed the spiked chain person was wearing padded gloves so the spikes don't hurt.

It's not that the spiked chain is like, huge-spiked, it's that studs on the chain are moving fast enough to hurt.

Was my headcanon, anyways.