The Dropping Druid

[Yoven]

Hey there,
last session I spontaneously decided to wildshape from dire bat into a rhinoceros in the air to cause dropping damage... with the 6000 pounds of the rhino i only need 10 feet height for maximum damage of 20d6 (DMG) and get 1d6 of damage from falling....
now.. what is the reflex save DC for half damage of this dropping rhino, and, how efficient can i use this technique with summoned monsters?
Say i toss away my Flame Strike for causing 8d6 on lvl 8 for a dropping giant crocodile causing 20d6... (summon natures ally states the creature appears where I want it to... and i want it in the air). is that defensible as a neutral good druid? also, is it efficient?
And how many books will fly in my direction?

Thanks

[GnomeGninjas]

I'm pretty sure that you can't go from one wild shape to another. You need to go to your normal form first.

[galan]

dropping animals from high place doesn'd sound druid-like..
on the other hand (or maybe in? english have some wierd grammer rules), the animals don't actually die- they're summoned, not calld, so the animal come back to life. i guess you need to ask your DM for that.

[Amphetryon]

I'm pretty sure that you can't go from one wild shape to another. You need to go to your normal form first.

Do you have a citation for this? I don't recall seeing it as an actual rule, but I've been wrong before.

[Autopsibiofeeder]

I am pretty sure you cannot create summons in mid air, these kinds of conjurations need to be in contact with at least one solid surface that can support it, no?

[GnomeGninjas]

Do you have a citation for this? I don't recall seeing it as an actual rule, but I've been wrong before.
I don't. I just assumed it was the case, after reading wildshape it seems that I was wrong (unless the errata or some other source has something to say about it).

[Yoven]

I am pretty sure you cannot create summons in mid air, these kinds of conjurations need to be in contact with at least one solid surface that can support it, no?

in my players handbook it says
It
appears where you designate and acts
immediately, on your turn.
and

Creatures cannot be summoned
into an environment that cannot support
them. For instance, a porpoise may only be
summoned in an aquatic environment.

so summoning them into the air seems totally okay by RAW if the creature doesn't have to breathe water...

Now how do i determine the Reflex DC and is it half or no damage...

[Autopsibiofeeder]

in my players handbook it says
and


so summoning them into the air seems totally okay by RAW if the creature doesn't have to breathe water...

Now how do i determine the Reflex DC and is it half or no damage...

From the SRD, the section that explains schools of magic, subsection Conjuration:


A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space.

[GnomeGninjas]

in my players handbook it says
and


so summoning them into the air seems totally okay by RAW if the creature doesn't have to breathe water...


Mid-air doesn't support alligator.

[Amphetryon]

in my players handbook it says
and


so summoning them into the air seems totally okay by RAW if the creature doesn't have to breathe water...

Now how do i determine the Reflex DC and is it half or no damage...

FWIW, I've always seen that clause as indicative that the only creatures you could summon in mid-air would be the ones that have a Fly speed. However, if your reading flies with your DM. . . .

[Yoven]

alright, then dropping summons doesn't work.

so lets go back to the wild shaped druid falling as a rhino or similar. I didn't find anything in the shapeshift or Wildshape rules saying im not allowed to so.
So how do i determine a reflex save for the falling damage.. (the damage the poor guy on the ground takes...), and is it a no damage or a half damage save.

[hymer]

Is this really the sort of game you want to play? Heroes and villains defeated by having hippopotami and giraffes dropped on top of them one way or another?

[Togo]

so summoning them into the air seems totally okay by RAW if the creature doesn't have to breathe water...

Now how do i determine the Reflex DC and is it half or no damage...

It's not a Reflex save, it's an attack roll. You're dropping an object (yourself in this case) on an opponent. Don't forget the -4 to hit for being non-proficient, and -2 per 10 feet dropped range increment. Oh, and you take the damage as well, whether you hit or not.

If you really want this to be a viable combat tactic, then you need to get the DM to treat it as a bull rush attack, with the damage for being pushed against a solid surface being replaced with the falling damage.

[Yoven]

its the game i want to play if things get ugly... our DM just recently killed us with an ambush of an evil cleric using a wall of swords , summoned devils and several flame strikes and harm angainst 3 players of lvl 7 and 8... needless to say my two mates were killed and i stabilized on -2 HP...

so hell yeah i want to drop the rhino an the baddie.. and my dm is ok with it

[Amphetryon]

Is this really the sort of game you want to play? Heroes and villains defeated by having hippopotami and giraffes dropped on top of them one way or another?

C'mon, who WOULDN'T want to play a game where you win by dropping hippopotami on your enemies? :smalltongue:

[hymer]

For a session or two, sure. For a longer campaign? No fourletterwording way.

[Yoven]

It's not a Reflex save, it's an attack roll. You're dropping an object (yourself in this case) on an opponent. Don't forget the -4 to hit for being non-proficient, and -2 per 10 feet dropped range increment. Oh, and you take the damage as well, whether you hit or not.

If you really want this to be a viable combat tactic, then you need to get the DM to treat it as a bull rush attack, with the damage for being pushed against a solid surface being replaced with the falling damage.


considering falling rules from the DMG I don't really see why it should be like that at all... i get falling damage due to my falling height. thats 1d6 for 10 feet. the guy underneath me gets damage according to my weight and falling distance... i'm no different from a rock in that case.

so what i want to know is what reflex he would have to make of some rock was falling towards him

[Darrin]

Hey there,
last session I spontaneously decided to wildshape from dire bat into a rhinoceros in the air to cause dropping damage... with the 6000 pounds of the rhino i only need 10 feet height for maximum damage of 20d6 (DMG) and get 1d6 of damage from falling....


This sounds like Sinfire Titan's 4500 lbs of Stupid (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19863510/4500_lbs._of_Stupid?pg=1) trick. (I love this trick, although I'm more likely to use a Feather Token: Boat instead.)



now.. what is the reflex save DC for half damage of this dropping rhino


If you have Heroes of Battle and the DM is aware of the Aerial Bombardment rules, it's a Ref save DC 15 to avoid damage.

If not... this usually falls under "DM's Call". He may decide to use a Ref save, or treat it as a variation on a Falling Block trap and give it an attack roll with an arbitrary attack bonus.



how efficient can i use this technique with summoned monsters?


I'm rather fond of engulfing terror (from Drow of the Underdark): 10' x 10' footprint, 15000 lbs easily maxes out the weight, plus engulf, plus acid damage, plus save vs. paralysis.

Rhino may be the first animal to get over 4000 lbs, although brown bear (SNAIV, 1800 lbs) and bison (SMIII, 1800-2400 lbs) aren't too shabby.



is that defensible as a neutral good druid?


Technically, summoned monsters are supposed to be a "manifestation" of some universal archetype for a creature rather than the creature itself. On one hand... I can't imagine any druid using such a weaselish justification for killing something they revere as a sacred embodiment of nature. On the other hand, druids *expect* summoned animals to fight TO THE DEATH, aren't expected to heal or save such animals from harm, and don't really shed any tears afterward.



also, is it efficient?


Efficient from what standpoint? A very quick death, or multiple rounds of getting wounded/bleeding/internal organs ripped out/etc.? Or do you mean from a "pounds per spell level" perspective?



And how many books will fly in my direction?


And on the gripping hand... wear a helmet and sit close to the door.

[Yoven]

just talked with my DM, seems we'll use this http://dmreference.com/MRD/Basics/Environment_Hazards/Falling_Objects.htm
for the Reflex reference, means reflex by size and the falling damage from DMG.. and no, no one in our group has/knows heroes of battle


allright now where do i find a flying platform to summon animals on that i can cancle at will...

[Amphetryon]

just talked with my DM, seems we'll use this http://dmreference.com/MRD/Basics/Environment_Hazards/Falling_Objects.htm
for the Reflex reference, means reflex by size and the falling damage from DMG.. and no, no one in our group has/knows heroes of battle


allright now where do i find a flying platform to summon animals on that i can cancle at will...

Soarwhale, AEG, or any of several Huge Flying mounts, like Eberron's Dragon Hawk.

[Darrin]

allright now where do i find a flying platform to summon animals on that i can cancle at will...

Sounds like a job for the Surfboard (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10294124&postcount=5).