Chaos Shuffle / Extra Spell

[barna10]

So, quickly, tell me why a Sorcerer can't learn every spell using Chaos Shuffle and Extra Spell (or for that matter the Chameleon feat). As far as I can tell, once a spell is known, it's known.

If you answer "No, once you lose the feat, you lose the spell", please provide some sort of reference beyond common sense.

[Cog]

The reference is the 'spells known' table right in the Sorcerer's class description. If you want to claim a sorcerer has more spells known than allowed by that table, you have to point to the ability that lets him do that. Saying, "Well, he used to have this feat," doesn't count; it's not on his character sheet now, and he reverts to the base table.

[qwertyu63]

So, quickly, tell me why a Sorcerer can't learn every spell using Chaos Shuffle and Extra Spell (or for that matter the Chameleon feat). As far as I can tell, once a spell is known, it's known.

If you answer "No, once you lose the feat, you lose the spell", please provide some sort of reference beyond common sense.

By RAW, I don't see any reason why it wouldn't work (Other then the costs to cast embrace the dark chaos and shun the dark chaos). Your DM will likely not be a fan though.

[barna10]

The reference is the 'spells known' table right in the Sorcerer's class description. If you want to claim a sorcerer has more spells known than allowed by that table, you have to point to the ability that lets him do that. Saying, "Well, he used to have this feat," doesn't count; it's not on his character sheet now, and he reverts to the base table.

That's a fine interpretation, but there's no rule stating this. Again, a common sense answer does me no good.

[willpell]

So, quickly, tell me why a Sorcerer can't learn every spell using Chaos Shuffle and Extra Spell (or for that matter the Chameleon feat). As far as I can tell, once a spell is known, it's known.

If you answer "No", please provide some sort of reference beyond common sense.

Why do so many players demand more than that?

[barna10]

Why do so many players demand more than that?

Do you mean more spells known or more than a common sense answer?

If you are referring to common sense it is because there is no such thing as "common sense". It's a myth, hence why there are rules in the first place.

[Spuddles]

That's a fine interpretation, but there's no rule stating this. Again, a common sense answer does me no good.

That's not how the rules work. The feat is giving you a benefit; an extra spell known. When you lose a feat, you lose the benefit of the feat. See the Rule Compendium. The benefit of extra spell is an extra spell. When you no longer have extra spell, you no longer have an extra spell.

The lack of a rule doesn't mean permission. There's no rule that says elves don't shoot lasers out of their eyes. Does that mean elves don't have laser eyes? There's no rule stating that they don't. A common sense answer does me no good.

[Wookie-ranger]

That's not how the rules work. The feat is giving you a benefit; an extra spell known. When you lose a feat, you lose the benefit of the feat. See the Rule Compendium. The benefit of extra spell is an extra spell. When you no longer have extra spell, you no longer have an extra spell.

It's really simple stuff.

+1 This,

Also if you lose a feat, you also (temporarily) loose everything that needed this feat as a prerequisite.

[Kazyan]

Why do so many players demand more than that?

Because common sense isn't optimal.

[Clistenes]

I find it quite surprising nobody has still mentioned Dark Chaos Schuffle as a way to permanentely gain dozens of extra known spells...I mean, if you are going to take the cheesy route, take it all the way.

(Thats said, I don't think any DM would never allow to use it)

[toapat]

I find it quite surprising nobody has still mentioned Dark Chaos Schuffle as a way to permanentely gain dozens of extra known spells...I mean, if you are going to take the cheesy route, take it all the way.

(Thats said, I don't think any DM would never allow to use it)

no, Extra Spell for Sorcerer is only +1 spell so long as you have it, where as extra spell on wizard is one of the most exploitable feats with feat retraining.

[Rubik]

I did the Extra Spell shuffle with a magic mantle spell-to-power erudite, but there was an extra step involved; I made power stones of all the spells and learned them the normal way for such a character.

That works, even if it wouldn't normally. Likewise, you could do so with scrolls and a wizard.

[Clistenes]

no, Extra Spell for Sorcerer is only +1 spell so long as you have it, where as extra spell on wizard is one of the most exploitable feats with feat retraining.

But the cheesiest and most munchkinny interpretation of the rules would let you with a permanent extra feat after doing Dark Chaos Schuffle, or so I've read in this same forum...

So you would keep the Extra Spell forever.

(and again, I don't think that trick is legal, but if you accept the legality of Dark Chaos Schuffle, you can apply it to Extra Spell).

[Lapak]

That's not how the rules work. The feat is giving you a benefit; an extra spell known. When you lose a feat, you lose the benefit of the feat. See the Rule Compendium. The benefit of extra spell is an extra spell. When you no longer have extra spell, you no longer have an extra spell.

The lack of a rule doesn't mean permission. There's no rule that says elves don't shoot lasers out of their eyes. Does that mean elves don't have laser eyes? There's no rule stating that they don't. A common sense answer does me no good.This is the correct answer.

Another perfectly good reason why you wouldn't be able to 'learn every spell' this way even if it worked (which it doesn't) is the cost involved. As a PC, the XP cost would quickly become prohibitive - 500 xp per cycle adds up when you're doing it over and over again. For NPC casting, you'd need to find a greater-than-15th-level caster willing to burn all that XP and even then it would cost you 4900 gold per cycle. That's not a ridiculous sum, but unless you have so much money that you could drown a dragon it's going to affect your gear levels.

[Rubik]

Another perfectly good reason why you wouldn't be able to 'learn every spell' this way even if it worked (which it doesn't) is the cost involved. As a PC, the XP cost would quickly become prohibitive - 500 xp per cycle adds up when you're doing it over and over again. For NPC casting, you'd need to find a greater-than-15th-level caster willing to burn all that XP and even then it would cost you 4900 gold per cycle. That's not a ridiculous sum, but unless you have so much money that you could drown a dragon it's going to affect your gear levels.Yay for the (entirely broken) thought bottle!

[LTwerewolf]

But the cheesiest and most munchkinny interpretation of the rules would let you with a permanent extra feat after doing Dark Chaos Schuffle, or so I've read in this same forum...

So you would keep the Extra Spell forever.

(and again, I don't think that trick is legal, but if you accept the legality of Dark Chaos Schuffle, you can apply it to Extra Spell).

With the wizard you get the extra spell, scribe a scroll, forget the spell, put scroll into spellbook. You now have that spell.

[willpell]

If you are referring to common sense it is because there is no such thing as "common sense". It's a myth, hence why there are rules in the first place.

I firmly disagree. Common sense is anything most reasonable people can agree on. If there's room for debate, it's probably not common sense; there are definitely subjects where an obvious right answer isn't immediately apparent, where multiple perspectives always appear equally valid. But when even the person asking the question has to be honest and go "I know this really can't be how it works", then common sense is what's talking to him, and people shouldn't second-guess that instinct.

[Wookie-ranger]

It would be easier to use Wish to change your spell-loadout.
It is not in the spell description, but I think The Simbul used it in that way; therefore it is at least debatable if your DM can allow it.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

1. Ancestral Relic feat (BoED)
2. Make it a custom Runestaff (MIC p224)
3. When the party would sell junk loot for half value, buy it out of the party pool for that price. You get a portion of that back when the cash gets split. Sacrifice the full value of that junk loot into your relic. You're now upgrading it for less than half price.
4. You can even switch what spells it contains whenever you upgrade it, as the item's shape and its enchantment's end result not exceeding the level cap or your invested sum is all that matters.


Regarding Chaos Shuffling your Extra Spell feat, there's no RAW that states you retain the spell if you lose the feat. If you take Martial Weapon Proficiency then you know how to use that weapon, but if you shuffle out that feat you lose that knowledge. The same goes for Extra Spell, if you shuffle out the feat you lose the knowledge it granted. You can lose knowledge of a spell, it's already built into the Sorcerer class with trading out spells for different ones at even-numbered levels. There's zero RAW that states you keep what a feat granted after losing the feat, losing Extra Spell means you lose the spell it gave you. There doesn't need to be RAW that states it directly because no RAW exists to state the opposite directly, either. If you want to keep the spell after shuffling out the feat, the burden of proof lies on you to show that the rules support it.

[barna10]

I firmly disagree. Common sense is anything most reasonable people can agree on. If there's room for debate, it's probably not common sense; there are definitely subjects where an obvious right answer isn't immediately apparent, where multiple perspectives always appear equally valid. But when even the person asking the question has to be honest and go "I know this really can't be how it works", then common sense is what's talking to him, and people shouldn't second-guess that instinct.

Sure...that's why everyone has the same opinions, because we all think the same. Sorry, common sense is a myth. Lol, I would point out how wrong the idea of using common sense as a basis for rules all day, but this isn't the place.

Just ask yourself one question: If everyone shares the same "common sense", why are there any arguments about rules interpretations?

[Emperor Tippy]

The easiest way, as a wizard, to get whatever spells you want (for free as well), is to Shapechange into a Zodar and then Wish up a Blessed Book filled with the spells that you want. As a magic item there is no GP limit and it gives you all those nifty spells.

As a Psion the way to learn every single power in the game is to get Psychic Chirurgery, Psychic Reformation, and a scroll of Ice Assassin. Make an Ice Assassin of yourself, have it Psychic Reformation all of it's powers known into ones that you want and don't have (and it's feats into Expanded Knowledge, remember to grab Psi Warrior powers at the lower level) and then have it use Psychic Chiurgery to give you all of it's powers. As an Ice Assassin it can't gain XP but nothing prevents it from burning XP. Repeat the above until you have all the powers that you want/in the game.

As a Sorcerer, well you are screwed unless you use one of the unlimited feat tricks. That is what happens when you play a Sorcerer :smallwink:

[barna10]

Regarding Chaos Shuffling your Extra Spell feat, there's no RAW that states you retain the spell if you lose the feat. If you take Martial Weapon Proficiency then you know how to use that weapon, but if you shuffle out that feat you lose that knowledge. The same goes for Extra Spell, if you shuffle out the feat you lose the knowledge it granted. You can lose knowledge of a spell, it's already built into the Sorcerer class with trading out spells for different ones at even-numbered levels. There's zero RAW that states you keep what a feat granted after losing the feat, losing Extra Spell means you lose the spell it gave you. There doesn't need to be RAW that states it directly because no RAW exists to state the opposite directly, either. If you want to keep the spell after shuffling out the feat, the burden of proof lies on you to show that the rules support it.

While that is a well-worded presentation, it proves nothing. The absence of a rule is not a rule. Even you argument about weapon proficiencies is assumed. After all, if one NEEDED a weapon proficiency feat to know how to use a weapon, 99% of the classes in 3.5 would not know how to use weapons! The same is true of armor. If the ability to use weapons and armor IS tied directly to a feat it opens the door for trading-in that knowledge for the Chaos Shuffle. However, since the consensus has determined that these proficiencies need to be explicitly stated as feats to be considered feats, this knowledge can be held in the absence of the equivalent feat.

So, if one can have knowledge provided by a feat without actually having the feat, as is evident in nearly every core class, why would this be limited to only weapon and armor knowledge? One could make the case that Elves Chaos Shuffle their martial weapon proficiencies away and still retain the martial weapon knowledge since there are many examples of races and classes that have this knowledge without having the martial weapon proficiency feat.

This is as close there is to any positive ruling (as opposed to a negative one relying on the absence of an example) on the subject.

Someone mentioned losing access to an ability if you lose the prerequisite, but that is not only not a "rule", it specifically applies to Prestige Classes. It is a suggestion listed in several places, but is not a "rule". Besides, you could always use the merit based requirements rule and ignore all prerequisites.

[Clistenes]

The easiest way, as a wizard, to get whatever spells you want (for free as well), is to Shapechange into a Zodar and then Wish up a Blessed Book filled with the spells that you want. As a magic item there is no GP limit and it gives you all those nifty spells.

Uh? I know you can wish for a Blessed Book, since it costs only 12500, and you can ask for something up to 25000, but...no GP limit? When was the 25000 gp limit changed?

By the way, is there any trick a sorcerer can do to create scrolls with spells he doesn't know if he has a spellbook with those spells?

[Emperor Tippy]

Uh? I know you can wish for a Blessed Book, since it costs only 12500, and you can ask for something up to 25000, but...no GP limit? When was the 25000 gp limit changed?

By the way, is there any trick a sorcerer can do to create scrolls with spells he doesn't know if he has a spellbook with those spells?

Reread Wish. It can create any non-magical item of up to 25,000 GP.
It can create any magical item with no regards to GP (it simply has an ever increasing XP cost).

[ShneekeyTheLost]

While that is a well-worded presentation, it proves nothing. The absence of a rule is not a rule. Even you argument about weapon proficiencies is assumed. After all, if one NEEDED a weapon proficiency feat to know how to use a weapon, 99% of the classes in 3.5 would not know how to use weapons! The same is true of armor. If the ability to use weapons and armor IS tied directly to a feat it opens the door for trading-in that knowledge for the Chaos Shuffle. However, since the consensus has determined that these proficiencies need to be explicitly stated as feats to be considered feats, this knowledge can be held in the absence of the equivalent feat.

So, if one can have knowledge provided by a feat without actually having the feat, as is evident in nearly every core class, why would this be limited to only weapon and armor knowledge? One could make the case that Elves Chaos Shuffle their martial weapon proficiencies away and still retain the martial weapon knowledge since there are many examples of races and classes that have this knowledge without having the martial weapon proficiency feat.

This is as close there is to any positive ruling (as opposed to a negative one relying on the absence of an example) on the subject.

Someone mentioned losing access to an ability if you lose the prerequisite, but that is not only not a "rule", it specifically applies to Prestige Classes. It is a suggestion listed in several places, but is not a "rule". Besides, you could always use the merit based requirements rule and ignore all prerequisites.

From the SRD:


Benefit

What the feat enables the character ("you" in the feat description) to do. If a character has the same feat more than once, its benefits do not stack unless indicated otherwise in the description.

In general, having a feat twice is the same as having it once.

In other words, the feat enables you to have access to the new spell, as per wording in Complete Arcane, page 79-80. When you don't have the feat, you don't have access to that spell. It's as simple as that.

No, your insistence on attempting to force people to prove a negative, logically impossible, still fails because burden of proof falls on you, as being the one who is trying to re-interpret the rules.

[Clistenes]

Reread Wish. It can create any non-magical item of up to 25,000 GP.
It can create any magical item with no regards to GP (it simply has an ever increasing XP cost).

True I forgot that bit. It's a tempting way for sadistic DMs to f***k you, if you become too greedy and ask for some very specific, rare, overpowered stuff.

You know, that's a loophole for all kind of weird s**t: Rings that grant all the crafting feats you need (including the ones that grant discounts), pendants that grant metamagic feats, knowstones, custom runestaffs, scrolls with rare spells...etc., and that without spending time on crafting: You need some stuff, and voila!, you get it!.

[barna10]

From the SRD:

"Benefit: What the feat enables the character ("you" in the feat description) to do. If a character has the same feat more than once, its benefits do not stack unless indicated otherwise in the description.

In general, having a feat twice is the same as having it once."

In other words, the feat enables you to have access to the new spell, as per wording in Complete Arcane, page 79-80. When you don't have the feat, you don't have access to that spell. It's as simple as that.

No, your insistence on attempting to force people to prove a negative, logically impossible, still fails because burden of proof falls on you, as being the one who is trying to re-interpret the rules.

Err.What? What you quoted simply states that having the same feat more than once means nothing. What's that have to do with anything we're talking about?

Also, I'm not asking anyone to prove a negative. I'm asking for evidence instead of opinion or hearsay. The assumption that there is a negative to prove implies that the opposite of what I am presenting is true. If it is, there should be evidence, or at least something to support the argument against what I am saying. Lacking any evidence means there are no grounds for a dispute.

[barna10]

True I forgot that bit. It's a tempting way for sadistic DMs to f***k you, if you become too greedy and ask for some very specific, rare, overpowered stuff.

You know, that's a loophole for all kind of weird s**t: Rings that grant all the crafting feats you need (including the ones that grant discounts), pendants that grant metamagic feats, knowstones, custom runestaffs, scrolls with rare spells...etc., and that without spending time on crafting: You need some stuff, and voila!, you get it!.

Why stop there. Just wish for epic items or artifacts and be done with it.

[Rubik]

Why stop there. Just wish for epic items or artifacts and be done with it.Standard epic items suck (with very few exceptions) and even most (non-custom) artifacts are awful.

[barna10]

Standard epic items suck (with very few exceptions) and even most (non-custom) artifacts are awful.

True, but most DMs (including myself) would be more willing to allow you to wish for an item from the book instead of a custom item.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

While that is a well-worded presentation, it proves nothing. The absence of a rule is not a rule. Even you argument about weapon proficiencies is assumed. After all, if one NEEDED a weapon proficiency feat to know how to use a weapon, 99% of the classes in 3.5 would not know how to use weapons! The same is true of armor. If the ability to use weapons and armor IS tied directly to a feat it opens the door for trading-in that knowledge for the Chaos Shuffle. However, since the consensus has determined that these proficiencies need to be explicitly stated as feats to be considered feats, this knowledge can be held in the absence of the equivalent feat.

So, if one can have knowledge provided by a feat without actually having the feat, as is evident in nearly every core class, why would this be limited to only weapon and armor knowledge? One could make the case that Elves Chaos Shuffle their martial weapon proficiencies away and still retain the martial weapon knowledge since there are many examples of races and classes that have this knowledge without having the martial weapon proficiency feat.

This is as close there is to any positive ruling (as opposed to a negative one relying on the absence of an example) on the subject.

Someone mentioned losing access to an ability if you lose the prerequisite, but that is not only not a "rule", it specifically applies to Prestige Classes. It is a suggestion listed in several places, but is not a "rule". Besides, you could always use the merit based requirements rule and ignore all prerequisites.

You have weapon proficiencies because you have some game mechanic that grants it, whether a class feature, racial trait, feat, spell, magic item, etc. If you have none of those things, then you do not have proficiency. You know spells because you have some game mechanic that grants it, whether by virtue of your class levels, from a feat, etc., if you suddenly lack something that gave you knowledge of a spell, then you lose that spell.

A character goes Rogue 8/ Fighter 1, at that Fighter level he gained proficiency in all simple and martial weapons, all grades of armor, and all shields. He gets level drained by a Wight and fails the save the next day, and loses that Fighter level. He loses those proficiencies, because he no longer has a game mechanic that's providing it to his character. The same goes for a Sorcerer who gets level drained, he loses spells known until his total is back down to what he's allowed to have per the game mechanics in effect on his character, and this is clearly described in the rules. The exact same would go for a Sorcerer who took Extra Spell as his 9th level feat, and gets level drained to 8th and loses it, he'll lose that spell because he no longer has a game mechanic in effect on his character which grants it. These things are clearly described in the rules, and the same applies to feats lost via the Dark Chaos Shuffle or Psychic Reformation.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Err.What? What you quoted simply states that having the same feat more than once means nothing. What's that have to do with anything we're talking about?

Try again.

Benefit: What the feat enables the character ("you" in the feat description) to do.

The feat enables you to have an additional spell known. Without this feat, you do not have that additional spell known.

It's really that simple.

[Clistenes]

True, but most DMs (including myself) would be more willing to allow you to wish for an item from the book instead of a custom item.

That's the reason I said that, if you become too greedy your DM could screw you and you could get a cursed ring or something like that.

Coming back to the question I asked earlier, is there any trick a sorcerer can use to create scrolls with spells he doesn't know if he has a spellbook with those spells?

About the trick proposed by the OP, I may not understand how the Dark Chaos Shuffle trick works; I thought it was something like this:

Mirror Move is a 2º level spell that allows you to copy any feat you have seen in use recently (past 10 rounds). You can copy as many feats as your int bonus plus one, and keep them 1 min / level. Heroics is 2º level too, and if gives you any fighter feat for 10 min/level even if you haven't seen it recently.

Embrace the Dark Chaos from the Fiendish Codex allows you to change a feat you have for a tainted feat.

Shun the Dark Chaos allows you to lose a tainted feat and get a non-tainted feat whose prerrequisites you fulfill.

The thing is, Embrace the Dark Chaos doesn't mention the feat you replace must be permanent and, on the other hand, the feats that Shun the Dark Chaos grant are explicitly permanent, so you are exchanging temporary feats for permanent feats for free.

If you use the trick to gain Extra Spell several times, and keep the feats permanently, you permanently keep the spell too...

[tyckspoon]

You know, that's a loophole for all kind of weird s**t: Rings that grant all the crafting feats you need (including the ones that grant discounts), pendants that grant metamagic feats, knowstones, custom runestaffs, scrolls with rare spells...etc., and that without spending time on crafting: You need some stuff, and voila!, you get it!.

Yup. That's why one of the most common houserules for people who don't want to ban Wish access entirely (and it's quite surprisingly easy to get) is to reinstate a GP limit on what Wish can create.

As far as Epic stuff goes.. it's true that most of them aren't worth their GP costs, but you aren't paying those GP costs, are you? You wouldn't actually *buy* a +100 equivalent sword and armor if you had any choice in it, but when you free-Wish for one, well, they're pretty handy to have around. Things like the Ring of Universal Energy Immunity and Bracers of Relentless Might are similarly too expensive to pay for, but really sweet to get for free

[Clistenes]

Yup. That's why one of the most common houserules for people who don't want to ban Wish access entirely (and it's quite surprisingly easy to get) is to reinstate a GP limit on what Wish can create.

That's how I have always played it. As a matter of fact, I had forgotten that's not the official rule.


As far as Epic stuff goes.. it's true that most of them aren't worth their GP costs, but you aren't paying those GP costs, are you? You wouldn't actually *buy* a +100 equivalent sword and armor if you had any choice in it, but when you free-Wish for one, well, they're pretty handy to have around. Things like the Ring of Universal Energy Immunity and Bracers of Relentless Might are similarly too expensive to pay for, but really sweet to get for free

Well, you are still paying XP. I think that use of the spell is game-breaking only because it allows you to get the exact item you need any moment you need it ("I would really love to have XXXXX to fix this mess...wait! I can make it")

[toapat]

But the cheesiest and most munchkinny interpretation of the rules would let you with a permanent extra feat after doing Dark Chaos Schuffle, or so I've read in this same forum...

So you would keep the Extra Spell forever.

(and again, I don't think that trick is legal, but if you accept the legality of Dark Chaos Schuffle, you can apply it to Extra Spell).

Either way, if you allow the Munchkinry that is required for DCFS to be as exploitable as people say it is (ok, it nearly is that exploitable, but you have to check EVERY single class/feat granted feat slot. (fighter bonus feats cant be used for DCFS for instance, as there is no way to have the abyssal heritor feat in place of a Fighter Bonus Feat)), then you really are not going to be caring too much for RAW

[TuggyNE]

About the trick proposed by the OP, I may not understand how the Dark Chaos Shuffle trick works; I thought it was something like this:

Mirror Move is a 2º level spell that allows you to copy any feat you have seen in use recently (past 10 rounds). You can copy as many feats as your int bonus plus one, and keep them 1 min / level. Heroics is 2º level too, and if gives you any fighter feat for 10 min/level even if you haven't seen it recently.

Embrace the Dark Chaos from the Fiendish Codex allows you to change a feat you have for a tainted feat.

Shun the Dark Chaos allows you to lose a tainted feat and get a non-tainted feat whose prerrequisites you fulfill.

The thing is, Embrace the Dark Chaos doesn't mention the feat you replace must be permanent and, on the other hand, the feats that Shun the Dark Chaos grant are explicitly permanent, so you are exchanging temporary feats for permanent feats for free.

If you use the trick to gain Extra Spell several times, and keep the feats permanently, you permanently keep the spell too...

While that might indeed work, and be rather clever, it's not what the OP was trying. Rather, they were trying to justify shuffling out the Extra Spell instances and keep the spells known. This is not something a Sorcerer can reasonably do by any correct reading of RAW, as has already been rather thoroughly hashed out.

[Kelb_Panthera]

That's how I have always played it. As a matter of fact, I had forgotten that's not the official rule.



Well, you are still paying XP. I think that use of the spell is game-breaking only because it allows you to get the exact item you need any moment you need it ("I would really love to have XXXXX to fix this mess...wait! I can make it")

Tippy's referencing one of the game's exploits whereby a spell-like ability that mimics a spell with an XP cost has no XP cost. A zodar's wish spell-like can create literally anything as long as it's a magic item that a price can be formulated for without any cost at all.

Naturally, houseruling in some limitation on the spell-like version of wish comes highly recommended if you want the game to remain remotely playable should such an ability ever become available.

@ the OP;

You've challenged us to find a rules reference that says you lose the spell when you lose the feat, and IMO that was handled a few posts back. However, you haven't shown any rules to support the idea that the spell stays when the feat goes either. What's your basis for the idea that it remains a spell known when the feat is removed?