Tumbling while Withdrawing?

[Laserlight]

PC has four adjacent foes, one each at North, East, South, and West. He can use a Withdraw to move one space Southeast without provoking AoOs; however, if he moves any further, he'll get AoOs from foes South and East. Can he Tumble to avoid those AoOs?

One side says "Withdraw is a full round action, so you can't do anything else, including Tumble"; the other side says "Tumble isn't an action, it's something you do during movement, such as during Withdrawing."


Comment, insight, official rulings?

[tyckspoon]

Hinges on how you define 'normal movement', I think, since the Tumble skill uses that phrase in its effect options but it isn't (AFAIK) an explicitly defined game term. I would say it's whenever you move using one of your standard move speeds, and you can Tumble to modify any other action that involves using such a move speed.

[BowStreetRunner]

First of all, the 'other side' is correct in that Tumbling is not an action. A quick look at the Tumbling skill in the PHB shows that where it normally would list what type of action is needed to use the skill, here it says 'Not applicable'. It does go on to state that a Tumble check is part of a move action, which RAW would prevent you from using it as part of a full round action.

However, if you are tumbling as you move, there is actually no reason to use a withdraw action at all. You can simply perform one or two move actions while tumbling and provoke no attacks of opportunity from movement. Which is why this issue probably doesn't come up very much. Withdraw is like a poor-man's tumble for those of us who don't have ranks in the skill.

[tyckspoon]

However, if you are tumbling as you move, there is actually no reason to use a withdraw action at all. You can simply perform one or two move actions while tumbling and provoke no attacks of opportunity from movement. Which is why this issue probably doesn't come up very much. Withdraw is like a poor-man's tumble for those of us who don't have ranks in the skill.

Well, there is one edge-case I can think of- if your Tumble check isn't high enough to reliably tumble past *all* of the enemies, you might want to Withdraw away from some of them before Tumbling past the others. Tumbling past 2 enemies requires 2 checks at DC 15 and 17; Tumbling past 4 takes 4 checks at 15, 17, 19, and 21. That's a non-neglible increase in your chance of failure if you aren't good enough at Tumble to pass them all on a 1/have a Skill Mastery-like effect to let you Take 10.

[Laserlight]

However, if you are tumbling as you move, there is actually no reason to use a withdraw action at all. You can simply perform one or two move actions while tumbling and provoke no attacks of opportunity from movement.

Tumbling requires DC15 plus two per opponent past the first, so the PC would be rolling four checks at DC21 for his first square of movement, then for his second square he rolls two more checks at DC17; whereas if he can Withdraw, he can step away from his initial square without provoking, so he only rolls two checks at DC17 for his second square of movement.

The difference, in this case, is an 80% chance to get away without getting hit, versus a 20% chance.

[gomipile]

Tumbling requires DC15 plus two per opponent past the first, so the PC would be rolling four checks at DC21 for his first square of movement, then for his second square he rolls two more checks at DC17; whereas if he can Withdraw, he can step away from his initial square without provoking, so he only rolls two checks at DC17 for his second square of movement.

The difference, in this case, is an 80% chance to get away without getting hit, versus a 20% chance.

You make one check per enemy as you move past, no matter how many of his threatened squares you move through.

[Laserlight]

You make one check per enemy as you move past, no matter how many of his threatened squares you move through.

Cite? I'm not arguing, I just haven't seen it.

PC would still have a 76% chance to receive an AoO when tumbling out of the first square, though.

[gomipile]

Cite? I'm not arguing, I just haven't seen it.

PC would still have a 76% chance to receive an AoO when tumbling out of the first square, though.

Tumble on the SRD. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/tumble.htm)

The description says you make a check for moving past an opponent, not for moving out of a threatened square of an opponent. It never mentions individual squares in the rules text for tumbling past opponents.

The only mention of squares in the text is for "Obstructed or otherwise treacherous surfaces," which are "tough to tumble through."

[nedz]

Tumble
DC 15 Tumble at one-half speed as part of normal movement, provoking no attacks of opportunity while doing so. Failure means you provoke attacks of opportunity normally. Check separately for each opponent you move past, in the order in which you pass them (player’s choice of order in case of a tie). Each additional enemy after the first adds +2 to the Tumble DC.


Tumble on the SRD. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/tumble.htm)

The description says you make a check for moving past an opponent, not for moving out of a threatened square of an opponent. It never mentions individual squares in the rules text for tumbling past opponents.

You need to look at the AoO rules

Moving

Moving out of a threatened square usually provokes an attack of opportunity from the threatening opponent. There are two common methods of avoiding such an attack—the 5-foot step and the withdraw action.

And then

Withdraw

Withdrawing from melee combat is a full-round action. When you withdraw, you can move up to double your speed. The square you start out in is not considered threatened by any opponent you can see, and therefore visible enemies do not get attacks of opportunity against you when you move from that square. (Invisible enemies still get attacks of opportunity against you, and you can’t withdraw from combat if you’re blinded.) You can’t take a 5-foot step during the same round in which you withdraw.

If, during the process of withdrawing, you move out of a threatened square (other than the one you started in), enemies get attacks of opportunity as normal.

So if you withdraw, you do not provoke for the 1st square, and can tumble out of the second: DC 17, twice

Or you could choose not to withdraw, and make four tumble checks at DC 21. The advantage here is that you could then attack, or take some other standard action.

[gomipile]

You need to look at the AoO rules


And then


So if you withdraw, you do not provoke for the 1st square, and can tumble out of the second: DC 17, twice

Or you could choose not to withdraw, and make four tumble checks at DC 21. The advantage here is that you could then attack, or take some other standard action.

You haven't contradicted me.

[BowStreetRunner]

From the SRD:

"Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn't count as more than one opportunity for that opponent."

You only provoke one attack of opportunity from an opponent for a single action. So why would you need to roll a tumble check more than once for a single opponent? Yes, if there are multiple opponents you have to roll for each. Yes, if you take more than one action that provokes attacks of opportunity you have to roll for each action. But moving through two threatened squares as part of a single move action only provokes one attack of opportunity per opponent who threatens any of those squares.

[ericgrau]

Withdraw only protects your initial square, not against all foes who threaten that square. So you can provoke from the same foe in a different square. All it does is prevent visible foes from threatening your initial square. Just like if you walk out of the dead zone on a reach weapon and into the reach weapon's threatened square and then out of it you still provoke from the later movement even though you didn't provoke when you left the non-threatened square.

Withdrawing allows movement with any form of movement for which you have a listed speed. Tumbling is not a form of movement (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#movementModes), but rather it is part of land movement. Because you can perform land movement while withdrawing you may tumble while withdrawing. You may also jump or balance while withdrawing. But you may not climb or swim unless you have a listed speed for one of these.

So it is ok to withdraw to avoid threatening in the first square and then, while moving for the withdraw, tumble to avoid threatening in further squares.

Btw here's the rule that says tumble is part of movement:


Action

Not applicable. Tumbling is part of movement, so a Tumble check is part of a move action.

It assumes you used a move action to move but presumably you could also use other ways to move. Just like attacks of opportunity can be trip attempts. Otherwise you'd have to do silly things like not letting people withdraw when they need to balance. Or forcing them to withdraw 15 feet to a small gap in the floor and then lose the other 45 feet of their movement because they're not allowed to make a short hop.