[3.5]Two-Weapon Gish

[Rhaegar14]

So I know there are about a million reasons that this is a bad idea, but let's pretend there aren't. I was mulling over character concepts, and thought that an Arcane Gish that uses two weapons (or a double weapon) would be a cool theoretical exercise.

The most obvious thought is a Daggerspell Mage (at least for a dip), but that's kind of boring. My first interesting thought was using a Dire Flail, Double Hammer, or Quarterstaff with Mighty Wallop and Arcane Strike shenanigans (neither one specifies that they only apply to one end of a double weapon).

What can you guys come up with, Playground? For the purpose of keeping things more-or-less simple, let's say polymorphing to get an arbitrarily large number of arms with which to multi-weapon fight is off the table.

[herrhauptmann]

Have you looked at the PF Magus?
It's a gish-in-a-can, and does TWF, where one hand holds a spell, and one a weapon.

[Kazyan]

Spell Storing weapons would be fun, as would Arcane Channeling (Full Attack)...I think; I haven't read it.

[Rhaegar14]

The Force Athame actively undermines a lot of the Magus' class features though, with very few benefits; it costs them spellstrike (not an unforgivable loss, but significant) and they can't make a full attack using the Force Athame and use Spell Combat on the same turn.

But, your suggestion does tell me I should clarify; I'm not looking, necessarily, for ways to execute it, I'm looking for ways that you might redeem the heavy feat-and-ability-score investment necessary to execute it. Does that make sense?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Check out the weapon style feat in Drow of the Underdark called Eilservs School. If you use a magic staff (one that holds spells) to attack, you get +1 damage per 10 charges remaining (rounded up). If you hit with both ends of the staff, you can activate one of the spells it contains as a swift action. The Quick Staff weapon style feat in CW could also be useful, especially if you're using a Longstaff from Complete Adventurer.

Take Ancestral Relic (BoED) for your staff, so you can dump cash/loot into it to upgrade and recharge it. If the party would sell junk loot for half value, buy it from the party pool for that price. You'll get a portion of that back when the cash is split. Sacrifice the full value of that junk loot into your relic, so you'll be upgrading it for less than half price. Each time you upgrade it you can even repick what properties it has and what spells it contains.

That's going to take a lot of feats: EWP: Longstaff, Weapon Focus: Quarterstaff, Combat Expertise, Dodge, TWF, Quick Staff, Eilservs School, Ancestral Relic, and Practiced Spellcaster. Some prestige classes also require feats, such as Combat Casting for Abjurant Champion, Mobility for Swiftblade, and Extend Spell for Incantatrix (and Iron Will but that doesn't cost you a feat if you get it from the Otyugh Hole in CS).

Arcane Strike is half as useful since you can only charge one end of a double weapon when you activate it, the other end costs you another spell. You can further complicate it by shoehorning in Warblade and JPM for the Xing Mongoose maneuvers, which is about the only thing that can redeem a TWF Gish, but those take a swift action so you can't combine them with Eilservs School. Minor Shapeshift is a staple of the modern gish, but you'll be spending a lot of swift actions for Eilservs School and/or Mongoose boosts, so that one's optional.

[Rhaegar14]

Arcane Strike is half as useful since you can only charge one end of a double weapon when you activate it...

Is this in errata? I actually checked my copy of Complete Warrior looking for specifically that, and it says nothing to that effect.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Is this in errata? I actually checked my copy of Complete Warrior looking for specifically that, and it says nothing to that effect.

It's not that specific, but the general rule regarding double weapons and effects which can be placed on a weapon still applies. Casting Greater Mighty Wallop on one end does not affect the other end. Applying poison to one end does not affect the other. Paying to make one end a +1 weapon does not affect the other end, and so on. Different ends of a double weapon are counted as separate weapons, and Arcane Strike does not specify any exception to this.

[mattie_p]

Daggerspell Mage, while generally suboptimal, seems indicated here.

[Andreaz]

Have you considered psionics? They had canned gishes from day 1 (psychic warrior (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/psychicWarrior.htm)), and since psionics have no somatic components it doesn't matter what armor, weapons and npcs you are holding.

[Blue1005]

What is Gish? and I personally love TWF anything cause of the mental image it gives.

[Andreaz]

What is Gish? and I personally love TWF anything cause of the mental image it gives.A magical warrior. Someone who fights with blade and spell alike.

[Blue1005]

A magical warrior. Someone who fights with blade and spell alike.

Is that a combination of words? And i think if he was build right he would be far more powerful than a fighter.

[Andreaz]

Is that a combination of words? And i think if he was build right he would be far more powerful than a fighter.Nearly everything is more powerful than a fighter when built right, yes. Particularly if you care about more than dealing damage.

[Darrin]

Is that a combination of words? And i think if he was build right he would be far more powerful than a fighter.

The term "gish" comes from 1st/2nd edition Githyanki multiclassing as a fighter/wizard. In 3.x edition, it refers to any build that tries to mix spellcasting with melee. In general, a gish is expected to have at least BAB +16 by 20th level (four iterative attacks), and usually some form of arcane spellcasting, although some "divine gish" builds may mix in divine spellcasting instead. The "gold standard" of gishing means by 20th level you have at least BAB +16 and 9th level spells.

[Loki_42]

After 13th level TWF gets pretty good on a Duskblade, because they can Arcane Channel a full attack. You have to wait a while, but nothing is stopping you from being a more standard duskblade with an extra sword as a backup until then.

[ThiagoMartell]

A friend of mine played a Swordsage/Duskblade/JPM gish. He only started using TWF around level 15, but it was badass.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

A friend of mine played a Swordsage/Duskblade/JPM gish. He only started using TWF around level 15, but it was badass.

I played a JPM a long time ago with a Quaterstaff, although it was mostly focused on arcane strike and using Devoted Spirit rather than actual TWF (I think I used Heroics for that?)


Wizard variants are going to be your best friend. You could go Martial Wizard, ditching Scribe Scroll for any [fighter] feat. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizard) At 5th level, you could sacrifice that feat for the War Domain, nabbing a martial weapon and weapon focus. I can't say if there are any deities with both the domain and the quarterstaff as a favored weapon, however. Check Complete Champion for the details.

There's also Heroics from Spell Compendium, which can grant you floating bonus fighter feats, which can help somewhat, but it won't be a perfect fix.

Other than that, Biffoniacus_Furiou's advice is, as always, solid.

EDIT: Greyhawk has Joramy and Panzuriel with both the quarterstaff favored and the war domain, assuming the source is accurate.

[herrhauptmann]

Wizard variants are going to be your best friend. You could go Martial Wizard, ditching Scribe Scroll for any [fighter] feat. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizard) At 5th level, you could sacrifice that feat for the War Domain, nabbing a martial weapon and weapon focus. I can't say if there are any deities with both the domain and the quarterstaff as a favored weapon, however. Check Complete Champion for the details.

I know that you can sacrifice a domain for the same devotion, it's part of what makes cloistered cleric so nice.
But I wasn't aware you could take a devotion feat, then sacrifice that for a domain. Where does it say that's possible?

[Blue1005]

The term "gish" comes from 1st/2nd edition Githyanki multiclassing as a fighter/wizard. In 3.x edition, it refers to any build that tries to mix spellcasting with melee. In general, a gish is expected to have at least BAB +16 by 20th level (four iterative attacks), and usually some form of arcane spellcasting, although some "divine gish" builds may mix in divine spellcasting instead. The "gold standard" of gishing means by 20th level you have at least BAB +16 and 9th level spells.

What are some books that have this class, this seems to be crazy power.

[Andreaz]

What are some books that have this class, this seems to be crazy power.It's a combination of classes. The only base classes that get close to this are druids and clerics (clerics can actually get bab 20) along with 9th level spells.

Most gishes incorporate Abjurant Champion (5 levels, full bab, full caster progression, goodies for your abjurations), eldrtich knight (the simplest of all. 10 levels, full bab, 9 out of 10 levels progress spellcasting, a bonus feat or two). Look here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8786) for further detail.

[Darrin]

What are some books that have this class, this seems to be crazy power.

The standardl "Core" Gish might look something like:

Fighter 2/Wizard 8/Eldritch Knight 10
BAB: +16, Spells: 9th

Outside of Core, it might look something more like:

Fighter 1/Wizard 2/Human or Elf Paragon 3/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 8
BAB: +18, Spells: 9th

(Swapping in four levels of Incantatrix in there is also quite popular.)

The standard Sorcerer gish is usually a "Sorcadin":

Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 8
BAB: +16, Spells: 9th

Bards generally use Sublime Chord from Complete Arcane to become pseudo-sorcerers. A typical build might look like:

Fighter 1/Bard 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 3/Eldritch Knight 1/Sublime Chord 2/Abjurant Champion +2/Eldritch Knight +6
BAB: +18, Spells: 9th

If you're looking for just a base class, Duskblade (from PHBII) has been often called a "Gish in a Can". It's underpowered on the spellcasting side of things (they only get 5th level spells), but they are easy to play right out of the box and don't require any deep courses in optimization theory to be effective.

[Blue1005]

The standardl "Core" Gish might look something like:


Awesome summary BTW much appreciated and super easy to follow. :smallbiggrin:

[gorfnab]

Bards generally use Sublime Chord from Complete Arcane to become pseudo-sorcerers. A typical build might look like:

Fighter 1/Bard 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 3/Eldritch Knight 1/Sublime Chord 2/Abjurant Champion +2/Eldritch Knight +6
BAB: +18, Spells: 9th

The other common Bard Gish builds I've seen are:

Bardadin
Bard 8/ Paladin of Freedom 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Sacred Exorcist 3

Bard Archer
Bard 8/ Arcane Archer 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Ruathar 3

[doko239]

Pathfinder Magus has already been mentioned, but if you're dipping into Pathfinder material, I've always been a fan of the Synthesist. Basically imagine a semi-permanent Shapechange, where you get to pick and choose what your new body gets, while still retaining spellcasting. Doesn't get 9th-level spells, but a lot of higher-level stuff is discounted pretty heavily on their spell list. Worth a look :smallbiggrin: