Natural Attacks, or Two Weapon Fighting

[hirojinbrodie]

Ok, simple character question. Seems rather simple. I have a character, a rogue Kenku, with two natural claw attacks. It is my understanding that I can use both these attacks as my regular attack without taking negatives. My question is whether I should take two weapon fighting? I already have two attacks, and I don't even take a minus two. I have considered that I have a low output of damage, but rogue's use sneak attack mostly anyway. I could pick it up later when I get more attacks (BA 6 or higher) but at low levels it seems like I could just wait until later.
I am at 4th level, and would like to use the feat for other things.

[Rhaegar14]

The trick people usually use to get the most out of their iteratives when playing a character with a significant number of natural weapons is to take Improved Unarmed Strike. This allows you to get all of your iteratives (using a limb that doesn't have a natural weapon; in the case of your Kenku, a leg, for instance) and then all of your natural weapons. So, if you were to take Improved Unarmed Strike AND Two-Weapon Fighting, you could make two Unarmed Strikes, then your two Claw Attacks (at a -5 penalty because they're secondary weapons) for a total of four attacks.

However, without Improved Unarmed Strike, using a weapon for TWF would cost you your Claw Attack for that hand, so you wouldn't get any additional attacks.

[Lyndworm]

However, without Improved Unarmed Strike, using a weapon for TWF would cost you your Claw Attack for that hand, so you wouldn't get any additional attacks.
To avoid confusion (or maybe add some), I'm pretty sure that no official rule actually states that making a manufactured weapon attack with a natural weapon-bearing limb negates the use of that natural weapon. It is, however, an extremely common and sensible houserule (in my opinion).

[Rhaegar14]

To avoid confusion (or maybe add some), I'm pretty sure that no official rule actually states that making a manufactured weapon attack with a natural weapon-bearing limb negates the use of that natural weapon. It is, however, an extremely common and sensible houserule (in my opinion).

Yeah, but it's just logic. How are you going to attack with claws on a hand that's holding a sword? I suppose you could drop the weapon, but that costs you your move action next turn to pick it up again.

[Spuddles]

The trick people usually use to get the most out of their iteratives when playing a character with a significant number of natural weapons is to take Improved Unarmed Strike. This allows you to get all of your iteratives (using a limb that doesn't have a natural weapon; in the case of your Kenku, a leg, for instance) and then all of your natural weapons. So, if you were to take Improved Unarmed Strike AND Two-Weapon Fighting, you could make two Unarmed Strikes, then your two Claw Attacks (at a -5 penalty because they're secondary weapons) for a total of four attacks.

However, without Improved Unarmed Strike, using a weapon for TWF would cost you your Claw Attack for that hand, so you wouldn't get any additional attacks.

You'd get a -7 penalty on the natural attacks.

[Rhaegar14]

I didn't account for the use of two-weapon fighting in that -5. I probably should have clarified.

[Rubik]

You can also use nonstandard non-handheld melee weapons as well. There are braid blades, knee blades, boot blades, elbow blades, and so on, most of which are in Complete Scoundrel. They'll still only get you normal iteratives as an unarmed strike would, but they don't cost that extra feat and can be enhanced as any normal manufactured weapon could.

[Darrin]

My question is whether I should take two weapon fighting?


You have two primary claw attacks with no penalty. In order to use TWF, you need another weapon to be your "offhand" attack. The easiest way to do this is put armor spikes on your armor, but you need martial proficiency with armor spikes to do that. Taking Improved Unarmed Strike would also work, but that would cost a feat.

If you're a straight rogue, then the best option for an offhand attack for you would be, as Rubik mentions, one of the hidden blades from Complete Scoundrel: boot blade, elbow blade, knee blade, or sleeve blade. For proficiency purposes, those are all treated as if they were daggers, except for the knee blade, which is treated as a shortsword.

Also, you'll need two of them, because in general natural attacks can't be used for TWF. To use TWF, you'd have to choose one of your claws to be primary (they couldn't both be primary in a TWF attack), and the other claw would become a secondary natural attack. To TWF properly, you need two manufactured weapons that don't involve your hands (or one manufactured weapon plus unarmed strike), and then both claws become secondary natural attacks, for a total of four attacks. I would recommend:

knee blade #1 (primary): -2 attack
knee blade #2 (offhand): -2 attack, 1/2 Str bonus
claw (secondary): -5 attack, 1/2 Str bonus
claw (secondary): -5 attack, 1/2 Str bonus


You'd get a -7 penalty on the natural attacks.

Nope. TWF penalties only apply to your primary/offhand attacks. Secondary natural attacks are unaffected. (Rapid Shot, Flurry of Blows, and Snap Kick are a little different, the -2 penalty from those applies to all attacks that round.)

You can reduce the attack penalty on your secondary natural attacks to -2 by taking the Multiattack feat, and you can eliminate the penalty entirely by taking the Improved Multiattack feat.

Perusing Keld Denar and Solo's Natural Attacks Miniguide (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10994.0) would also be highly recommended.

[Spuddles]

Nope. TWF penalties only apply to your primary/offhand attacks. Secondary natural attacks are unaffected. (Rapid Shot, Flurry of Blows, and Snap Kick are a little different, the -2 penalty from those applies to all attacks that round.)

Wow, I never noticed that. That's actually pretty awesome. I always figured TWF functioned like other sources of extra attacks.

[Hyde]

I'm going to append my question to this thread, rather than start a new one.

So as a Four-Armed Gargoyle, I have 4 claw attacks, a bite attack, a gore attack, and a rake attack (from feral, because why not?) all primary.

So if I understand you correctly, if I took improved unarmed strike at my current BAB of +12/+7/+2, the appropriate TWF feats, and the multiattack feats, I would get:

3 "mainhand" unarmed strikes
3 "Offhand" unarmed strikes
4 claws
1 Bite
1 Gore
1 Rake

On a full attack with say pounce as part of a pseudo-ubercharger build?

[Edit:] to clarify, I originally thought the "natural attacks as secondary with TWF" was stating that you could use a natural weapon as your "offhand" attacks.

[mattie_p]

Hyde, you need a different weapon in your primary and off-hand. You can't TWF solely with unarmed strike.

If you had those knee blades, tail club, or whatever then you could go:

3 with weapon at +10/+5/+0
3 offhand unarmed strike at +10/+5/+5 (If you have improved and greater TWF)
4 claws at +7
bite at +7
gore at +7
rake at +7

(Those +7 increase to +10 with the Multiattack feat)

[Hyde]

Hyde, you need a different weapon in your primary and off-hand. You can't TWF solely with unarmed strike.

If you had those knee blades, tail club, or whatever then you could go:

3 with weapon at +10/+5/+0
3 offhand unarmed strike at +10/+5/+5 (If you have improved and greater TWF)
4 claws at +7
bite at +7
gore at +7
rake at +7

(Those +7 increase to +10 with the Multiattack feat) I want to go to there.

[Darrin]

So as a Four-Armed Gargoyle, I have 4 claw attacks, a bite attack, a gore attack, and a rake attack (from feral, because why not?) all primary.


Not quite. On a Gargoyle, generally only the claws are primary attacks. If you use a manufactured weapon (or unarmed strike) as your primary attack, then they all become secondary attacks.



3 "mainhand" unarmed strikes
3 "Offhand" unarmed strikes


As mattie_p points out, you need two different weapons to TWF. If unarmed strike is either your primary or offhand weapon, then you need another manufactured weapon to get all your iterative/offhand attacks.

Some DMs allow you to TWF with unarmed strike as both your primary and offhand attack, with the idea that you have multiple striking surfaces that can work as an unarmed attack (knees, elbows, head butt, etc.). There's not much in the official rules that says you can or can't do this, but there's circumstantial evidence in the FAQ that unarmed strikes can't be both your primary and offhand attack at the same time.



On a full attack with say pounce as part of a pseudo-ubercharger build?


Feral gives Pounce (Ex), yes, but many people miss that by RAW it only works on the first round of combat.



[Edit:] to clarify, I originally thought the "natural attacks as secondary with TWF" was stating that you could use a natural weapon as your "offhand" attacks.

It's not clear if natural weapons can be used as an offhand attack. There is a general rule that states a natural weapon can only attack once per round (not counting AoOs), so while there isn't anything in the TWF rules that explicitly forbids a natural attack as an offhand, you could only get one attack that way. If you have Improved or Greater TWF, you'd need a manufactured weapon or unarmed strike as your offhand weapon to get your second and third offhand attacks. The best way to do this as a four-armed gargoyle would be a sleeve blade (they are proficient with daggers) as primary, unarmed strike as offhand, and then the rest of their natural attacks as secondary (-2 penalty with Multiattack).

[Namfuak]

Yeah, but it's just logic. How are you going to attack with claws on a hand that's holding a sword? I suppose you could drop the weapon, but that costs you your move action next turn to pick it up again.

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10994.0;



A natural attack that is full (such as carrying gear or a manufactured weapon) can not make attacks.

Unfortunately that guide doesn't give a source, and it isn't in the SRD, so I'm guessing its out of a later MM or something.

[Darrin]

Unfortunately that guide doesn't give a source, and it isn't in the SRD, so I'm guessing its out of a later MM or something.

It's not in the SRD, or in any of the rulebooks. It's an "unwritten rule" implied from the stat blocks in the Monster Manual (and from common sense): when a creature with claws wields a manufactured weapon, that claw attack is no longer available in their full attack progression.

[Darius Kane]

It's not in the SRD, or in any of the rulebooks. It's an "unwritten rule" implied from the stat blocks in the Monster Manual (and from common sense): when a creature with claws wields a manufactured weapon, that claw attack is no longer available in their full attack progression.
This. You can ask Solo yourself if you want. I did.

[Darrin]

knee blade #1 (primary): -2 attack
knee blade #2 (offhand): -2 attack, 1/2 Str bonus
claw (secondary): -5 attack, 1/2 Str bonus
claw (secondary): -5 attack, 1/2 Str bonus


Correction: after reading up on hidden blades, I noticed:

"Attacking with a hidden blade imposes a –2 penalty on the attack roll."

Thusly:
knee blade #1 (primary): -4 attack
knee blade #2 (offhand): -4 attack, 1/2 Str bonus
claw (secondary): -5 attack, 1/2 Str bonus
claw (secondary): -5 attack, 1/2 Str bonus

So you may be better off pursuing Improved Unarmed Strike. However, there are a couple cheap magic items that offer Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat:

Bracers of Striking (1310 GP, Magic of Faerun)
Ring of Might (4000 GP, Magic of Faerun)

Fanged Ring (Dragon Magic) also gives you Improved Unarmed Strike as well as Improved Natural Attack (Unarmed Strike) and 1 Con damage on a crit. However, it's not so cheap: 10000 GP.

[Hyde]

Not quite. On a Gargoyle, generally only the claws are primary attacks. If you use a manufactured weapon (or unarmed strike) as your primary attack, then they all become secondary attacks.

Quite, as specifically the monster entry lists them as primary.
I think it's a pathfinder thing because they decide primary/secondary by the attack type. Basically, they went in and keyworded a lot of ****.


Feral gives Pounce (Ex), yes, but many people miss that by RAW it only works on the first round of combat. Yeah, I took the partially redundant Lion spirit totem barbarian ACF for right proper pounce.



The best way to do this as a four-armed gargoyle would be a sleeve blade (they are proficient with daggers) as primary, unarmed strike as offhand, and then the rest of their natural attacks as secondary (-2 penalty with Multiattack).
Really, I just didn't list the whole "I'm a barbarian" thing because it wasn't really pertinent to the question I had. I'm still thrown by Naturals stacking with Iteratives. It's absurd.

[Keld Denar]

This. You can ask Solo yourself if you want. I did.

I wrote a goodly portion of the crunch for that guide. Solo wrote the rest and posted it. Indeed, that "rule" is not listed anywhere, but is simply extracted from an investigation I did a while back where I looked at dozens of different monster stat blocks from a number of sources. No stat block where a monster used a manufactured weapon in a hand (or pair of hands) had claws or slams listed as part of their full attack entry with that weapon. Bites were included, since wielding a weapon in the hands wouldn't occupy the mouth (although using a mouth pick weapon would), as were other natural attacks made with limbs that couldn't wield weapons such as gores, tall slaps, or tentacle slams. It mostly affects claws and slams, since in humanoid shaped creatures, those attacks are made with arms or other forelimbs.

[Hyde]

I sincerely doubt there's raw on this, but conversationally, I use a double weapon (sized for use with four hands? is that a thing?). I make my iterative attacks, and then "drop" the weapon with all but one claw (Or maybe pass it around with quick draw).

would that be a way to pull this off?

[eggs]

I sincerely doubt there's raw on this, but conversationally, I use a double weapon (sized for use with four hands? is that a thing?). I make my iterative attacks, and then "drop" the weapon with all but one claw (Or maybe pass it around with quick draw).

would that be a way to pull this off?
I believe that's legit by the rules (you're free to make a free action after your weapon attacks in a full attack action), but it's the kind of thing that you probably shouldn't get your hopes up about using in a game.

[kardar233]

I wrote a goodly portion of the crunch for that guide. Solo wrote the rest and posted it. Indeed, that "rule" is not listed anywhere, but is simply extracted from an investigation I did a while back where I looked at dozens of different monster stat blocks from a number of sources. No stat block where a monster used a manufactured weapon in a hand (or pair of hands) had claws or slams listed as part of their full attack entry with that weapon. Bites were included, since wielding a weapon in the hands wouldn't occupy the mouth (although using a mouth pick weapon would), as were other natural attacks made with limbs that couldn't wield weapons such as gores, tall slaps, or tentacle slams. It mostly affects claws and slams, since in humanoid shaped creatures, those attacks are made with arms or other forelimbs.

This is also supported by the Half-Dragon and Half-Fiend entries in the SRD.

[Person_Man]

Regardless of what weapon(s) you settle on using, I would also suggest getting Quickdraw via a Feat or magic item or enhancements or some similar workaround. Alternatively, you can improve your reach or get free/swift action movement various ways. If you're making 4+ attacks per round, eventually you'll end up killing everyone within your reach before you run out of attacks. So you'll need some method of hitting enemies at a range, so that you never "waste" any attacks.

[Hyde]

cleaving charge (Killing Spree):

prereqs: Power Attack, Great Cleave, some other stuff.

Benefit: If you kill a creature with an attack made after a charge, you may charge another creature before making your cleave attempt. You may make any other attacks you have left in the round, like with pounce or whatever. You may not move more than twice your movement in a round, so good luck with that.



Feat level... maybe okay? I suppose it would depend on your movement speed. (In case it wasn't reeeely obvious, I just made this up).

[mattie_p]

Rather than repost the details, Hyde, I'll just drop a link to this thread that discusses various cleave options (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=172766) beyond great cleave.